So I'm sculpting an Irish-themed chess set, where all the pieces will be historic personages. And for the Irish side, I'm torn. For the two rooks, I intend one of them to be the Rock of Cashel, but I can't decide whether the other should be Brú na Bóinne or the GPO in Dublin.

Thoughts?

Antaine,

For simplicity it might be easier to keep some symmetry. Both rooks as the Rock of Cashel (or the GPO).

King could be Brian Boru or Eamonn DeValera.

Queen could be Grace O'Mally or Countess Markovic

Bishop ....Gotta go with St. Patrick

Knight....Michael Collins if we're in the DeValera, GPO era. Not much to offer if you go with the Boru, Rock of Cashel theme.

Don't know how far you are on the project. These were just thoughts that first came to mind.

Didn't want to limit to a single conflict...wanted to assemble a kind of "Best of" each side's respective personages as they relate to Irish history. Here's what I have (I also didn't want duplicate pieces)

Irish
King - Briain Boroimhe
Queen - Medb
Bishop - St. Padraig
Bishop - St. Bríd
Knight - Fionn MacCumhail
Knight - Cú Cúlainn
Rook - Rock of Cashel
Rook - Brú na Bóinne
Pawn - Charles Stuart Parnell
Pawn - Eamon de Valera
Pawn - Wolfe Tone
Pawn - Robert Emmet
Pawn - Daniel O'Connell
Pawn - Michael Collins
Pawn - Patrick Pearse
Pawn - James Connolly



English
King - William of Orange
Queen - Elizabeth I
Bishop - David Lloyd George
Bishop - Randolph Churchill
Knight - Oliver Cromwell
Knight - Strongbow
Rook - Westminster Abbey
Rook - Parliament
Pawn - Robert Peel
Pawn - Edward Hyde
Pawn - David Trimble
Pawn - Charles Trevelyan
Pawn - John Russell
Pawn - William Gladstone
Pawn - Charles Blount
Pawn - Gerard Lake

I have never cared a lick one way or the other about chess, but if it were like this in real life, I'd very much want to learn it. Antain, it would be ever so nifty if you could somehow make multiple sets of those pieces and people could buy them, I would. What a fun idea, the only thing is that I'd have to start learning since I don't know how to play and so I'd have to be the British until I got talented at it. That way the British would always lose. Then when I got better I could be the Irish. Bein bua agus beannacht

My god i'd love to play that board!

Defo brú na bóinne! Says him who more or less lives in the newgrange passageway ;0

My intention is to make the first pieces and then make molds from them so they can be easily duplicated. Once it's finished (and we're talking very long term here) I'll be sure to let you guys know, and donate a set to Daltaí so they can raffle it...

Nothing against Brú na Bóinne, but I don't think it'd look good as a chess piece.It's a monument/tomb which I dont' think is appropriate for a chessboard and it'd look like a green beetle on the chessboard, because of it's shape.
Personally I think Blarney Castle would be more appropriate and would go well with the Rock of Cashel. It's probably better known than the Rock of Cashel internationally.

really? I always figured the Rock was so recognizable with the tower and all.

but yes, that was my initial hesitation with Brú na Bóinne...my reason for thinking it should be included was the fact that yes, the Irish built something that predates the pyramids etc.

Blarney castle, eh...that does need considering...

Togha fir!

And what about the Beatles vs. U2 theme?

The only problem with Blarny Castle is that it is ever so cliche, though that doesn't really matter if you want lots of people to identify with what you're doing because more people will if they see things they know. It's a good idea you have said to make Dev and Collins both pawns so no one gets irritated that one is put above the other either way.

Hey Ant'ney,

That's a great idea, and it has the potential to be a real money-maker. I suggest you take whatever steps necessary to secure your rights to the idea legally before someone steals it from you.

The spontaneous burst of enthusiasm you're getting here is, of course, the result of the fact that everybody here thinks (make that 'knows') that everything Irish 'is maith sin.'

It would take some marketing to get the general public fired up, but it could probably be done.

San idirlinn, maith thú!

I figure the all of us would want a set and you very much should pattend the idea. I don't know why no one has done it before. You must be quite talented if you're sculpting the pieces yourself. You should also include some sort of a key or legend showing which piece is which, that is if you make some for other people, for you'll know for your own pieces of course.

I have a short bio written up on each person...especially the english characters, many would not know who they are or what they did to warrant placement in a collection which basically brands them an enemy of Ireland.

One personage, Charles Trevelyan actually tried to do good, and was made to pay for it. Gladstone supported Home Rule, but also legislation that had been at best impotent and at worst counter-productive in that they deflated motivation for the sweeping changes that were truly necessary.

David Trimble convinced the UUP to accept the Good Friday Accord...



I find the others to be without redeeming qualities.


Here's what I've got (and yes, this is ©2005, with minor modification in 2006):



Who's Who in the Irish Chess Set?

Irish
Briain Boroimhe - Legendary High King of Ireland. Defeated the Vikings at the battle of Cluain Tarbh in 1014

Medb - legendary Queen of Connacht from the Ulster Cycle

St. Padraig - Patron saint of Ireland, brought Christianity to the Island

St. Bríd - Patroness of Ireland, spread Christianity

Fionn MacCumhail - legendary warrior, led the Fianna

Cú Cúlainn - legendary warrior of the Táin Bó Cuailnge

Rock of Cashel - Medieval cathedral complex in Tipperary

Blarney Castle - One of Ireland's most recognizable landmarks

Charles Stuart Parnell - politician, tried to secure home-rule for Ireland

Eamon de Valera - Revolutionary hero and politician. Irish-language advocate

Wolfe Tone - Leader of the 1798 Rising

Robert Emmet - Leader of the 1803 Rising

Daniel O'Connell - Secured Catholic emancipation

Michael Collins - Revolutionary leader and politician, secured Irish independence

Patrick Pearse - Leader of the 1916 Easter Rising

James Connolly - Leader of the 1916 Easter Rising



English
William of Orange - "King Billy" defeated King James at the Battle of the Boyne, securing harsh protestant rule over Ireland for the next 200+ years. Laid siege to Derry

Elizabeth I - Queen of England. Oversaw the "Plantations" of Scottish protestants on native land in Ireland.

David Lloyd George - British Prime Minister during the Easter Rising in 1916, opposed Irish push for independence by Michael Collins

Randolph Churchill - British statesman, paved the way for Partition of the North

Oliver Cromwell - Lord Protector. Like Elizabeth I, continued the policy of "Plantations" to increase the protestant population in Ireland. Responsible for butchery at Drogheda and the island in general.

Strongbow - Richard de Clare. Began the Anglo-Norman conquest of Ireland

Westminster Abbey - Site of the coronation of English monarchs

Parliament - Site of anti-Irish legislation, seat of British power

Robert Peel - Chief Secretary for Ireland, set up the Royal Irish Constabulary

Edward Hyde - 1st Earl of Clarendon, author of the Penal Laws

David Trimble - Unionist politician

Charles Trevelyan - Civil servant in charge of famine relief.

John Russell - Greatly enhanced the misery caused by the Great Famine

William Gladstone - Introduced a Home Rule bill for Ireland and the Irish Land Acts

Charles Blount - Baron Mountjoy, Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, defeated Irish forces at the Battle of Kinsale, ending the Gaelic Order

Gerard Lake - Defeated Irish forces at the Battle of Vinegar Hill near Enniscorthy in Wexford.

Sure and I just meant that you should have a key to show which little figurines are which people, you know with little pictures like one finds in chocolate boxes, but this is nice too. Not that I didn't know who those people were, (there were a couple I didn't), but the most of them I recognized. The one that I'd least want to ever run across is Cromwell because he's so dreadfull. Eeeeeeek!
Bein bua agus beannacht.

oh, each will be standing on a little base with their last name on it

Exactly what I was going to suggest. A name plate on each base for clarification.

Your pawns...might I suggest Irish peasants? The english pawns clad in orange, perhaps? The Irish in green?

Just my thoughts. OBTW...you going to Esopus this February?

I am

Why is a foreign scum bag like St Patrick included when natives like O'Neill, O'Donnell, and O'Rourke clans are not involved? Still, can't gripe, is a lovely idea, and good job Kevin O' Higgins is not in it

Scum bag? No wonder you hide behind that unregistered tag.

I dont hide behind it -OH! How you would know me if I sued my real name -despite having used my real name before, and where I go to college, and my course (what stage its at, that i have just done tests), and where I come from, my age...etc

As for St. Patrick, as I view 'Irishness' as a 18th/19th century construction by the Anglo irish and the British, and St Patrick as been doubly so, I find no need to add him, the el-cheapo colour green, nor leprokawns to my identity. St Patricks day would be like a St N****** day for Blacks -racist and demeaning and i wont support such crap. Ergo, the superordinate constrcution of 'irish' is a subset of britishness, and I'm not british

St. Patrick came from Britain when Britain was still Celtic. He wasn't Irish by birth, but he was a Celt.

He learned the language and returned to the place he'd been a slave for love of the people there, in order to make the best positive contribution to the land he knew how. That meets any sane person's definition of valid immigration.

But you're not actually here for a conversation, you're just here to make waves. I'd wager that you're not the person you're hinting at being.

I'd like to suggest we not engage this guy. The thread is interesting and I'd not like to see it closed...

Déanta agus áiméan.

Either modern day britain or Gaul... There's no proof so anyone can believe what they like Antaine..

Cromwell broke through the walls of the 'old english' walls of drogheda *Droichead Atha* on September 11th or as you americans would say 9/11 - - Quite a popular day for murdering innocent people >:!

Yes, but don't forget the Gauls were of Celtic stock as well, so he's a Celt either way, however even if he were African or Asian my point was that he made the most sincere attempt one can make in joining his adoptive culture and trying to benefit it...so that fact that he wasn't a native should not matter

? cén fáth , de Valera - "hero" 's
Collins - "leader" ??

rook ideas (pairs):
ogam stones
portal tombs
pillar stones (kilfountan,...)
cloch mór na cloch fháda, (graigue,...)
phallic stones (turoe, ...)
holed stones (doagh,...)
monastic (roundtower, beehive, kevin's kitchen,...)

de Valera was a commandant during the Easter Rising (the last one to surrender, if memory serves me correct) and worked after his release from prison in a continued effort to secure independence from the uk.

Collins was instrumental in organizing and executing the independence movement after his own release from prison for participating in the Rising himself.

hence, hero; leader

(Message edited by antaine on January 15, 2006)

hmmm.... not sure if i see the distinction. also, why such a jump from ancient to modern w/ no rep.'s in btwn? you bound from Boroimhe to oconnell, 800 years, why not shane the proud or red hugh, some contemporary of lizzy, maybe even the great grainne nimhaille, set those 2 against each other? and maybe even nicholas breakspeare v. flaherty o'muldory? rory o'moore? brian boy magee v. charley coote? eoghan ruadh v. cromwell? james or sarsfield v. the butcher of culloden/stinking billy? don alexander o'reilly? just curious. thinking aloud. not trying "to make waves " why such emphasis on easter boys and united irishmen?

while both men actively fought for ireland (heroes) and both were leaders in their own ways, for the sake of not being redundant i used one adjective for one and a second for the other.

i wanted to not represent a single time period, but also wanted to opt for better known vs more obscure whenever the situation presented itself. i had a very long list for the irish side more than half of which i needed to eventually cut for sheer numbers.

some names become more famous for either being more recent, having been made into movies or are the subjects of better known songs. aspects of the 800-year conflict and the names associated with them are better known than others...with only fourteen people (and two buildings) to work with I'm limited in how much I can include.

will you use irish titles (ard-ri, etc)?
what material are you sculpting?

if you were considering options instead of the brú and wanted a 'building' in the strict sense, blarney house is much more visually charming than the castle, connolly station, the black church,charleville castle,st pat.'s in armagh, town hall sligo, dromore castle, and connolly's folly all offer visual fodder. the gpo never struck me as exciting visually. i understand your easter lads/ gpo connection, but why not st padraig/st pat.'s cathedral? or even connolly/ connolly? i'm not sure the gpo would be any easier to pull off than the brú. again, just rambling thawts...

or the "spire of dublin"
wouldnt that be a grand rook!

Well, for the time being, the material i'm planning to use for the final sets is plaster, although that may change. I'm going to use clay for the original sculpture, make molds from that and then use either plaster, painted and enameled, or a different type of clay to reproduce. I was thinking of making the Irish pieces green and the english pieces red, although if I make them orange, then I can use green and white checks on the board and give it the look of the tricolor...hm...let's call that 'plan A' though i'm a long way from choosing colors...

the names on the bases will be short and in Irish. for instance, "Boroimhe" (with the ponc in seancló) rather than 'Boru" etc.

St. Patrick came from Britain when Britain was still Celtic. He wasn't Irish by birth, but he was a Celt.

"Celtic" and "Celticism" is an 18/19th century British invention. 'Ceilteach' -why not an irish name in irish?

"He learned the language"

What choice had he? By all accounts he never learnt it too well

"and returned to the place he'd been a slave for love of the people there",

we have no proof he ever lived, apart from some writings supposedly attributed to him. his return may have been a political contingency

As for love, to be a slave who minded domestic animals without running away, he would have to have been broken emotionally and mentally, so regualar beatings, starvings, and forced somodomy would most likely have been the order of the day

I might add, he is reported to have tried to force the centralied Roman church on the Coptic/Gaelic one, remove female participation etc. Should that be hidden too? Look how the same church appeared to be involved in the 12th century, mark 2, attempt at controlling the country

"in order to make the best positive contribution to the land he knew how. That meets any sane person's definition of valid immigration."

I'm not discussing immegration

But you're not actually here for a conversation, you're just here to make waves. I'd wager that you're not the person you're hinting at being.

I am who I usualy am, nor I'm a making waves, but challanging ideas that I think need to be thought of more clearly. St Patrick's day was never a match for haloween until recently. As an irish person, I find much of the symbolism alien and hard to reconcile with irish folklore and history. the colour green for example, when did that become the main colur? When immegrants to the US started to quaintly call it the emerald isle?

We had a discussion recently about the codology of the irish alphabet been named after trees. Maybe the more historically astitute can help deconstruct this (potentially) foreign festival

"I'd like to suggest we not engage this guy. The thread is interesting and I'd not like to see it closed..."

I'm not looking to be agressive, only question, like others about the missing gap of members of a very important time in gaelic civilisation (1200-1600) when some of the main decision were made in the Ireland/England wars (Taegh O Rourk, MacMurrough, etc)

Also, it seems like the festival cannot be removed from the attempts to differentiate themslves from the anglos in any country

""Celtic" and "Celticism" is an 18/19th century British invention. 'Ceilteach' -why not an irish name in irish?"

The Greeks coined 'Keltoi' and the Romans used other terms as well (with 'Gall' as a root...Gall, Gael, Gaul etc) to describe the western branches of the same general culture they came in contact with in Spain, France, Britain and Ireland. Call that body of people what you will, I've chosen to use the word 'Celt'

And I felt immigration was at issue as you seemed to take issue with him being a 'foreigner'...Lloyd George was Welsh, but what he did for England (and against the Welsh) caused him to be placed with the English pieces. De Valera was born in America and was half Spanish. I contend you don't have to be born there to be counted as one of them.


Like I said, given only sixteen Irish pieces I went for the most recognizable. I would venture to say, that should you find someone who would only be able to recognize one piece on the whole board, that piece would be St. Patrick, followed by lizzie off the english side...

The guy's the patron saint of Ireland (the first among several), and his feast day is the only Ireland much of the world gets to see. He's readily associated with Ireland and (usually, save this thread) in a very positive way. Thusly, such a collection would be incomplete without him.

The Greeks did not contruct the wish-washy 'Celtic' stuff of popular imagination. It was developed in Britain. It also informs much of how irish and irish-american see themselves, or have in popular projections, and is completly false.

I can see your point about him been needed there vecasue fo his constructed import; still historical correctness tastes better to me, but its not my chess set :)

Robert, do you have any references on this -- "he is reported to have tried to force the centralied Roman church on the Coptic/Gaelic one"? I had been under the apparently wrong understanding that Ireland was generic pagan pre-Patrick. I would like to read more on this if you can direct me. Thanks a lot, go raibh maith agat.

Well I got a littel confused on the timing, but it is suppossed to have been pagan. However, it adopted a monastic structure on the lines of the north african Coptic tradition (one of the sources of its illumination tradition, I think). I should have said he tried to override the social structure of the gaels, but failed. However, the apparent features of the gaelic church with more afinity to to the african might need explanation. In essence, I dont think the religios change was so neat as made out, but I am not pushing firm theories on flimsy evidence, even if I am asserting one story to be wrong (becasue it si flimsy too).

Robert, if you're going to say things that controdict what we all know, at least try not to mess up the coherency of what you're saying, such as the Roman vs. Gaelic church bit. You were right about one thing though, it is not your chess set for sure.

St. Patrick is one of my favorite historic figures. I'm a Christian so I deeply love and respect what he did for the people. Not to mention that my favorite day of the year is his. I know some of you will undoubtably criticize me for being ever so American on this point but I count down and look forward to it with so much anticipation. It is the day that I can be what I ...
Anyway, I have said my piece.
Bein bua agus beannacht

quote:

Bein bua agus beannacht

That's actually Beir....

Oh crap. I've been messing it up all this time. Thanks for telling me Dennis. I looked it up in Focloir Poca (just so you know my computer refuses to let me write fadas) a while back and I must have just written it wrong once and gotten in the habbit of doing so. Oops, now I feel very foolish. Thanks for rescuing me from my ignorance or else I probably wouldn't have noticed.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

Riona,
"Bein bua agus beannacht" mmmmmm I must come to you for advice more often

"just so you know my computer refuses to let me write fadas"

sounds like its from the time of St Patrick

quote:

Thanks for telling me

Tá fáilte romhat, a Ríona. I'm pleased that you're using a bit of Irish. Here are a few other useful phrases for you:

Go raibh maith agat. (Or GRMA) = Thank you.

Tá fáilte romhat. = You're welcome.

Slán go fóill, = Bye for now,

Go raibh maith agat. I know what those mean and I use them all the time when I talk to people. I think I wrote "go raibh maith agat" before on one thread or another and I just didn't get a chance to use the others yet. I always use what little I know when I talk to people who know me and they just get used to it. I say "sla/n" (as mentioned above my computer doesn't like fadas) when I leave and I always ask for uisce when I'm thirsty. I suspect that I might be the only American who does this but bear with my perculiarities.
Beir bua agus beannacht.

And Robert, it is very true that you ought not to ask my advice about words because I'll certainly but unintentionally mess them up.

But back to the chess set. Antaine, I noticed that some of your Irish people are legendary heroes from stories. Maybe you might put more freedom fighters in their places and that way you'd have that space in time from 12 to 16 hundred acounted for. Just an idea. And I've been thinking about David Trimble and it seems like he wasn't so bad, he did something kind of good by my estimation. Maybe you should take hem out and put someone a bit more villainess in. But I don't know if you're trying to give the British side more dimension than that.
Beir bua agus beannacht

Antaine,
what sort of material will they be finally cast in?

Actually I'd love to take him, and trevelyan out...trevelyan in particular, but I'm really at a loss for equally recognizable people I can replace them with.

As for material, I am unsure yet. I have a few materials that I intend to play with. I need something that is doable without special equipment (ie a kiln). I'm currently debating a ceramiclike airdry clay that can be painted and enameled, oven-bake polymer clay that can be done in colors (veeeery expensive in the quantities I have planned) and colored plaster in a latex mold and then enameled to make it look like ceramic...provided I can get a plaster that will dry hard enough.

If you can make your own ceramic mold, I'd suggest lead, or a lead based metal compound as a possible final product. You can get lead shot from any local gun shop or even on-line. It melts easily and the black-powder suppliers even have small melting pots/burners for not a whole lot of money. The strict traditionalists in the black-powder world still make their own ball ammunition using techniques from 200 years ago. Don't see why the same process couldn't be applied to your project.

Another option might be a resin polymer with perhaps a lead base to give the piece some weight.

Just some thoughts.

Le meas.

James,

Good point regarding weighting the pieces. Better grade chess pieces are weighted at the bottom, which would be a good idea with this set since it's so elaborate.

Unregistered Guest

David Trimble believe me "he did something kind of good" didn't.

He doesn't want a part of Ireland to be ruled by Irish people. (that's putting it very very simply)

He just doesn't seem bad when you put him up against Paisley and the loyalist murdering scum.

quote:

David Trimble believe me "he did something kind of good" didn't.

He doesn't want a part of Ireland to be ruled by Irish people. (that's putting it very very simply)

He just doesn't seem bad when you put him up against Paisley and the loyalist murdering scum.

Keep that tripe to yourself, it's off-topic here.

If you want to talk about archery, go to an archery forum.

If you want to talk about chemistry, go to a chemistry forum.

If you want to talk about the Irish Language, go to an Irish Language forum.

If you want to talk about politics, go to a politics forum.

See what I'm getting at? It's a very simple concept.

Fear_na_mbróg,

I always enjoy reading your postings. The one from you above is one of your best postings ever, especially in regards to the talk about politics here.

Le meas,

Unregistered Guest

Thanks, you're welcome.

Eh yes Irish Language forum..
Talking about chess petal..
It was an irrelevant post from the start..

Chess...
An Ghaeilge...
Surely someone of your "intellect" can understand the difference?