A chairde,

I'm doing some elementary work with the copula, adjectives and subordinate clauses and I'd like to know if I've understood the syntax correctly. I'd be very grateful if you could criticise any mistakes.

Simple statement:
Present tense

• 1. Is fear maith é. - He's a good man.
• 2. Is fear iontach é. - \i(He's a wonderful man.
• 3. Caithfidh mé a rá gur fear maith é. - I have to say that he's a good man.
• 4. Caithfidh mé a rá gur fear iontach é. - I have to say that he's a wonderful man.

----
Past tense

• 5. B'fhear maith é - He was a good man
• 6. B'fhear iontach é. - He was a wonderful man.
• 7. Caithfidh mé a rá gur fear maith é. - I have to say that he was a good man.
• 8. Caithfidh mé a rá gur fear iontach é. - I have to say that he was a wonderful man.

----------------------------------------
Now emphasising the adjective:
Present tense

• 9. Is maith an fear é. - He's a good man.
• 10. Is iontach an fear é. - He's a wonderful man.
• 11. Caithfidh mé a rá gur maith an fear é. - I have to say that he's a good man.
• 12. Caithfidh mé a rá gurb iontach an fear é. - I have to say that he's a wonderful man.

----
Past tense

• 13. Ba mhaith an fear é. - He was a good man.
• 14. B'iontach an fear é. - He was a wonderful man.
• 15. Caithfidh mé a rá gur mhaith an fear é. - I have to say that he was a good man.
• 16. Caithfidh mé a rá gurbh iontach an fear é. - I have to say that he was a wonderful man.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh, a cairde.

Christine.

7. Caithfidh mé a rá gur fear maith é. - I have to say that he was a good man.

No, it is "Caithfidh mé a rá gurbh fhear maith é".

8. Caithfidh mé a rá gur fear iontach é. - I have to say that he was a wonderful man.

It is "Caithfidh mé a rá gurbh fhear iontach é".

The other sentences are right.

There's always séimhiú with the vocative case:

a chairde

Also note that there's another was of doing the indirect speech of "ba":

B'aoibhinn liom dul go Gailimh.
Dúirt sé gurbh aoibhinn leis dul go Gailimh.
Dúírt sé go mb'aoibhinn leis dul go Gailimh.

Ba mhaith liom...
Dúirt sé gur mhaith leis
Dúirt sé go mba mhaith leis

A Chrístíona,

Look at the following table. You'll see that the subordinate conjunction in the past tense "gur" causes lenition. As "Fear" lenites to "Fhear" (silent Fh) it's treated as though it was a vowel. Hence "...gurbh fhear"

		POSITIVE	NEGATIVE
verb	present / future	go (ecl)	nach (ecl)	prefix n- to vowel
	past *	gur (len)	nár (len)	remove d' from verb
copula	present / future	gur	nach
	before vowel	gurb [gur before nouns, prepositions and prepositional pronouns]	nach
	past / conditional	gur (len)	nár (len)
	before vowel	gurbh (len)	nárbh (len)

* 6 of the 11 irregular verbs take go/nach in the Past Tense instead of gur/nach, but that doesn't concern us here.

As F_n_B correctly pointed out, a noun in the vocative case is always lenited. I see, however, that you got it right at the beginning of your post so I assume that was just a typo. Apart from that, it appears that you've grasped the use of the conjunctions and the use of the copula to place emphasis on an adjective.

Le meas,

"Dúírt sé go mb'aoibhinn leis dul go Gaillimh...Dúirt sé go mba mhaith leis"

Also:
"Deirtí go mba fear maith é".
"Deirtí go mba fear iontach é".

Shouldn't it be
"Deirtí go mb'fhear maith é"
"Deirtí go mb'fhear iontach é" ?

"Ba generally causes lenition. A following d, t, g or s, however, is very often not lenited." Learning Irish, p. 170.

quote:

"Deirtí go mba fear maith é".
"Deirtí go mba fear iontach é".

These are both wrong.

quote:

"Deirtí go mb'fhear maith é".
"Deirtí go mb'fhear iontach é".

These are both right.

That would explain the line from the "Fear Lasta Lampaí" by Máirtín Ó Díreáin:

Ba draíodóir an fear beag.

Cheap mé riamh go mba fear mór é.
_____

Ba fear é Yeats a thug a shaol ar fad don fhilíocht.
_____

“Ea! An créatúr, déarfainn go mba duine é siúd a bhí ar a theicheadh.”
_____

Is amhlaidh a shíl mé go mba duine acu tú féin.

— Máirtín Ó Direáin, "Feamainn Bhealtaine"
____________________

Cheapadh sinn go mb'ait an rud é a bheith ag brath ar sheabhac le seilg a dhéanamh, go mba dona go leor an teirgéis a bheadh ag duine de bharr an lae, agus go mba mhaith an rud dó díol an tseabhaic féin a bheith aige.
_____

Bheadh teidheadh den tsórt sin ceart go leor dá mba duine a bheadh ina dhiaidh, nó mada, nó sionnach féin.

— Seán Ó Ruadháin, "An Mothall Sin Ort"
____________________

Ba fear de na ríghte é a chuir námhadas na nGall roimh námhadas na nGaedheal, mar rinne Aodh Finnliath agus Niall Glúndubh.

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Na Lochlannaigh"
__________

Dá mba fear de mo bhunadh féin é ní fheicfinn an t-amharc sin i n-a shúile an dara h-uair; ach eisean —”
_____

Ba deacair dó a bheith meallta i nglór árd a mhná, ach i n-a dhiaidh sin níor thuig sé na focla.
_____

Ba dona an rud bheith i muinghin Malaedheach.

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Dith Céille Almayer"
__________

A Dhomhnaill, dá mbíodh leith-chéad míle fear agam, ba deacair liom m'fhocal a thabhairt go dtabharfainn a ríoghachta arais chuig an Rí Séarlas ar an bhomaite.
_____

Thug Ruaidhrí cabhair aroimhe duit agus ba dona an úsáid a rinne tú daoithe.
_____

Acht má ba eadar Franncaigh agus Spáinnigh a thárla an iaróg, ba tearc tír ins an Eoraip nach rabh cuid dá clainn annsin ag saighdeoracht.
_____

Má ba deacair seasamh, bhí sé doiligh go leor tuitim ins an chumhglach.

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Eoghan Ruadh Ó Néill"
__________

Ba deacair dó a dhul ní b'airde ná seo.

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Pádraic Ó Conaire agus Aistí Eile"
__________

Agus fosta ba deacair dó labhairt sa dóigh a dtuigfí é.

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Seideán Bruithne / Amy Foster"
____________________

Ba duine aistidheach Dr. Gray.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Saoghal Corrach"
__________

Ba deacair a rádh.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Mo Dhá Róisín"
__________

Agus ba deacair a bualadh amach a chastáil duit le deise agus le dóigheamhlacht.
_____

D'éirigh an ghrian i n-áirde os cionn na gcnoc, agus ba te marbhthach an ghrian í.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Caisleáin Óir"
__________

Ba deacair a rádh cé aca ba mhó a rabh searc aige don duine eile.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Cioth is Dealán"
__________

Nó, ba deacair diúltughadh do chuireadh Dhomhnaill a' chéad lá i n-Éirinn.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Thiar i dTír Chonaill"
__________

Acht ba deacair a thabhairt go Leitirceanainn.
_____

“Dia, ba dona é,” arsa Niall Sheimisín
_____

Ba charthannach fial thú riamh is ba sona do lámh,

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Rann na Feirste"
__________

Ba tútach a shéan sé La Fromentiere. Ní thug sé fá dear na dathannaí a chuir an sean-duine de féin agus é bogtha go ceart-lár a chroidhe.
_____

“Ba sona an seanadh a bhí san bheirt mhac sin agat,” ar seisean.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Faoi Chrann Smola"
____________________

Ba duine aistidheach a' sean-Mhr. Howard seo. Ní rabh fhios ag aon duine againn ariamh goidé an cheird a bhí roimh sin aige nó goidé a rinne sé.
_____

“Ar ndóighe, an sean-sgéal i gcomhnuidhe,” ar seisean, ag caitheamh uaidh a thoitín, agus ag deánamh gáire — agus ba searbh an gáire beag é.

— Domhnall 'ac Grianna, "Gadaidheacht le Láimh Láidir"
____________________

Ba duine de na fearaibh sin Maghnus Ó Domhnaill.

— Seaghán 'ac Meanman, "Ó Chamhaoir go Clap-Sholas"
_____

Ba duine aca sin Amrás Mhac Daeid.

— Seaghán 'ac Meanman, "Mám Eile as an Mhála Chéadna"
____________________

Ba deacair a rádh cé aca b'fhearr a rabh culaidh éadaigh air.

— Pádraig Ó Gallchobhair, "Cáitheamh na dTonn"
____________________

Gasúr fá aois Fheargail a bhí i bPól; agus eadar an triúr aca, ba deacair a gcoinneáil ó chéile, ar an scoil nó taobh amuigh den scoil.

—Tadhg Ó Rabhartaigh, "Thiar i nGleann Ceo"
__________

Ba sona séimh a saoghal agus í ina cailín óg.
_____

Ba sin an áit ar chaith mé an seal a ba sona de mo shaoghal; ach is fearr liom gan smaoitiughadh ar sin anois ar chor ar bith…”

— Tadhg Ó Rabhartaigh, "Mian na Marbh"
__________________________________________________

www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/tobar/

Which begs the question... when and why does "ba" not lenite?

For instance there's a clear-cut reason why you have:

an duais

rather than "an dhuais"; but why would you have "go mba fear".

Also I retract my claim that "go mba fear" was wrong... which is one reason why I FRC!

quote:

but why would you have "go mba fear"

For intelligibility.
__________________________________________________

"The initial consonant of an adjective is lenited...following bэ budh in the case of m, b, f, e.g. bэ wãç e: budh mhaith é, bэ woxd budh bhochd, badэ b'fhada; and sometimes in the case of c, g, e.g. bэ xo:r' budh chóir, bэ γra:Nэ budh ghránda; in the case of d, t, s, non-lenition is the rule, e.g. bэ del'i: budh doiligh, bэ tobэN budh tobann, e:N' ar bэ sevr'э ki:r'i: aon fhear budh saidhbhre caoirigh, эŋ' k'aN bэ suэri: an ceann budh suaraighe."

— Éamonn Mhac an Fhailigh, "The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo."

(The copula isn't even mentioned in the section "Lenition of Nouns.")
__________________________________________________

Deirtear go mba fear lághach, gnaoidheamhail é...
_____

... mar go mba bheag dhíobh sin a bhí le fagháil, agus dhá mbéadh féin ba fíor-chorr-dhuine de na seanchaidhthe a bhí i n-ann léigheadh...
_____

’Sé an chaoi chéadna é leis na tighearnaí talaimh. Ní cóir a bheith sa mhilleán ró-mhór ortha uilig mar bhí corr-cheann aca, cé go mba fíor-chorr-cheann é, a raibh an chneastacht agus an Grádh-Dia ann...
_____

Ba léir dúinn go mba fear é a chuir an-tsuim i gcúrsaí an tsaoghail fré chéile...

— Séamus Mag Uidhir, "Fánaidheacht i gConndae Mhuigheo"

Fiafraighim do Stanihurst cia budh honóraighe, budh huaisle, nó budh dísle do choróin na Sacsan, nó cia budh feárr do bharántaibh re cosnamh na h-Éireann do choróin na Sacsan...
_____

Óir cionnus budh fhéidir go mbadh é an dara Pádraic doghéabhadh ar dtús í...
_____

Óir cionnus budh fhéidir go gcreidfeadh Críostaidhe ar bioth d'á raibhe i n-Éirinn go mbrisfidhe baitheas Phádraic, agus é iar bhfaghbháil báis tuilleadh agus míle bliadhan ó shoin...
_____

Cuirid drong i n-iongantas cionnus budh fhéidir seanchus aon duine do bhreith go h-Ádhamh.
_____

...ionnus go rabhadar na díotha is na dochair do rinneadar leath ar leath da chéile comh mór soin go bhfuilid leabhair scríobhtha orra budh liosta ré a luadh agus budh fada ré a bhfaisnéis annso...
_____

...agus táinig do ghuidhe Chomhghaill naomhtha buaidh do bheith go minic ag mac Baodáin; agus an tan do chuir mac Déamáin sin i leith an naoimh do fhiafruigh Comhghall de-sean cia budh fearr leis neamh is a mharbhadh d'fhagháil, ioná bhuaidh do bhreith is bheith seal beo agus ifreann fá dheireadh.
_____

Loingeas so Locha Ríbh dhe,
Budh maith do mhóradh geinnte,
Budh uathaibh Abb Ard Macha,
Budh forlamhas anfhlatha.

— Seathrún Céitinn, "Foras Feasa ar Éirinn"

Agus ní loiteann séimhiú an 'f' sin ag: 'budh fhéidir', an riail, tharla gur 'f' tosaigh neamhstairiúil é sin a d'fhás as forcheartú:

Óir cionnus budh fhéidir go mbadh é an dara Pádraic doghéabhadh ar dtús í...
_____
Óir cionnus budh fhéidir go gcreidfeadh Críostaidhe ar bioth d'á raibhe i n-Éirinn go mbrisfidhe baitheas Phádraic, agus é iar bhfaghbháil báis tuilleadh agus míle bliadhan ó shoin...
_____
Cuirid drong i n-iongantas cionnus budh fhéidir seanchus aon duine do bhreith go h-Ádhamh.
_____

'Étir' an t-ainmfhocal is bun leis.
Shíl Thurneysen gur 'sétir' ba bhun leis (DIL), ach comharthaíonn caint na ndaoine a mhalairt: is étir > sétir; agus, budh étir > b'(fh)éidir. (Sin, nó dísheimhiú ar f-chontráilte an fhocail 'fhétir' a thug 'sétir' dúinn.)
'Is éidir' a déarfas go leor againn i gcónaí.

-- is mór an gar agus is an-spéisiúil do chuid postanna anseo a Pheadair, grmma. Mura mbím in ann beannú isteach ar an gclár ach go hannamh ar na saolta seo, ní théann do chuid postanna gan m'aird a tharraingt.

A chairde,

I really appreciate the time and effort that you've all put into your replies and I don't want you to get the impression that I'm ungrateful, but I'm confused. Is the lenition a dialect issue?

Christine.

Yeah. There is no lenition on d, t, s after "ba" in Ulster Irish, and in parts of Connaught (cf O Siadhail's book, that deals with Cois Fhairrge Irish, in Connemara). I think they make the lenition in every case in Munster dialects (... to be confirmed).

Yup, lenition after the past and conditional copula forms is more generalized in Munster. Here are some examples from Pádraig Ua Maoileoin's "Na hAird Ó Thuaidh," (found in the "Tobar na Gaedhilge" program):
____________________

“Grásta ó Dhia chughainn, a Cháit a chroí,” a déarfadh sé lem mháthair go neamhchúiseach, “mara mbeadh gur labhrais in am ba dhaor an gal orainn é.”
_____

Dob shidé an chéad uair riamh nár fhéad mo mháthair mé a shaoradh, ach bhí mo bhúrdáil tuillte go róbhinn agam, agus ba dheacair di é gan achrann a tharrac.
_____

Ba dheas a bhíodar go léir eatarthu ábalta ar an oíche a chiorrú dhuit le scéalta agus le hamhráin.
_____

Is maith a bhí a fhios ag an gcuideachtain go raghadh, agus a thuilleadh eile, ach teannadh leis, mar dob é Séamas an fear ba dheisbhéalaí dá raibh i nDún Chaoin riamh.
_____

Ba dhiail an ceann a bhí air, agus is mó caora a shaor sé ar an slí seo.
_____

Dob í Bríde an bhean ba dhóchúla ar an mbaile, agus ní chuirfinn a mhalairt fé thuairim Sheáin féin ná go mbíodh sé ag bolathaíl tímpeall uirthi.
_____

Ba dhóigh leat gur dhiail an neamhaistear don té a thóg cuid mhaith des na claitheacha so ar dtúis.
_____

Ach dob fhada ó bhaile an beannachadh é, agus ba shaoráideach.
_____

Beit ab ainm do bhean Shéamais, agus thugtaí an Sáirsint mar leasainm ar an mac ba shine a bhí aige.
_____

Ba threise ná san iad ar an ndeis-bhéalaíocht; an abairt ghiorraisc, an focal pras, an dá fhocal in ionad an dosaein, dob iad a bhí deas air.
_____

But:

Mar do bhí dúil an duine mhairbh aige sa bhreac úr, go mórmhór dá ba deargán é.

quote:

Mar do bhí dúil an duine mhairbh aige sa bhreac úr, go mórmhór dá ba deargán é.

Is that the "dá" that means "if"?

If so, should it not be:

dá mba d(h)eargán é

0"Is that the 'dá' that means 'if'?"

Yup.

If so, should it not be:
dá mba d(h)eargán é

Yes, except for those speakers for whom it isn't. There are four more occurrences of "dá ba" in "Na hAird Ó Thuaidh," and none of "dá mba":
__________

Is mó batráil a fuaireas ó sheana-Sheán Ó Maoileoin, m'athair críonna, as an rud céanna, ach níor leath leo dá ba caobach, nó faoileann droma duibhe, a bheadh de bharr do thurais agat, mar bhí an ghráin dhearg acu orthu so.
_____

Bhíos fé dhraíocht aige, agus é ag treabhadh leis tríthi, uaireanta le dua agus uaireanta eile comh sonaoideach agus dá ba caise ceoil a bheadh á bhaint as veidhlín aige.
_____

Bhí féith filíochta ann, agus ba bheag an nath aige, dá ba dhóigh leis go raibh aon bhlas agat uirthi, í a scaoileadh chughat anois agus arís; í a chaitheamh idir an dá shúil ort, a mheasas a rá, mar sin é a dheineadh sé nuair ná beadh aon tsúil agat leis.
_____

Bhí fairsinge talún againn ann agus é go léir i dteannta a chéile, féar dhá bhó dhéag, ach go bhféadfadh suas lena fiche a bheith agat ann dá ba mhaith leat é.

A Pheadair,

I appreciate all the examples you give, but they're worthless without offering an explanation.

If a learner of English asked me why sometimes people say "I should have went", and then I gave a load of examples from text, well that would be no use as it wouldn't give the learner an understanding of what's going on.

On the other hand, if I said: "In some of Ireland's dialects of English, people use the past tense form of a verb rather than its verbal adjective when constructing sentences such as the following: I should have gone = I should have went. I would have taken = I would have took. Now the learner knows that there's particular areas in which people speak like this... but that the original rule still applies (ie. use the adjective).

So what's the craic with "dá ba"? Why is there no urú on "ba", and where exactly do they do this?

• Pádraig Ua Maoileoin was from Dún Chaoin.

• Cois Fhairrge also has "dá ba," as well as "dá mba."

• John Ghráinne was recorded saying: "Dhéanfá an currach sin a fheisteadh i bhfad níb fhearr, b’fhéidir, ná dá ba é do churrach féin é."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/education/ceanndubhrann/page02.s html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/media/cdubhrann3.ram

I'm not going to write a book about it.

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on December 22, 2005)

Question to Fear_na_mbróg:

Do you really say "I should have went", or do you go short and say "I shoulda went"?

I should have went. I would have took

Thye sownd very dialectical to mine tundishes

I contract "should have" to "should've", and I pronounce "should've" as "shuda".

You should've went with him.
Ye shuda went wit um.

When "you" and "him" are unstressed, I pronounced them as "ye" and "um". The "th" in "with" disappears. The only word left unmutilated is "went"... and it's not even grammatically correct (by Standard English in anyway)!

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on December 22, 2005)

>>If a learner of English asked me why sometimes people say "I should have went"

Here is what you can answer:

A sentence as "I shouda/should've went" is not to be analyzed as:

"I should've went" = "I should've gone"

subject	modal	auxiliary	past participle or verb in past tense
I	should	have	gone
I	should	have	went

But as:

"I should've gone"

subject	modal	auxiliary	past participle
I	should	have	gone

vs "I should've went"

subject	adverb	verb in past tense
I	shoulda/should've	went

>>The only word left unmutilated is "went"... and it's not even grammatically correct (by Standard English in anyway)!

Purists will say it must be incorrect. period.
Linguists will say it must be explained. period.

quote:

Purists will say it must be incorrect. period.
Linguists will say it must be explained. period.

which is why I was wondering what the craic was with "dá ba". "Dá" takes an urú, as in:

Dá mbeadh an t-airgead agam, cheannóinn ticéad.
Dá nglanfaí an seomra, b'fhéidir linn dinnéar a ithe.

Including:

Dá mba mhaith leat, gheobhaidh mé geansaí duit.
Dá mb'fhéidir liom, rachainn ag snámh libh.

But now we're seeing "dá ba". The explanation is that some people in certain dialects just don't stick an urú on "ba" after "dá".

In Foras Feasa na Gaeilge it was written as dámadh; and in Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge as dábadh, dámadh, dhámadh, dámabh etc.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh arís. Agus ba mhaith liom Nollaig faoi mhaise agus Athbhliain faoi shéan agus faoi shona daoibh a rá, a chairde.