Hello,

I'm am trying to source an a3 or larger map of Ireland with all of the Irish place names.

I can't find anything on Google. Does anyone have any ideas where I could get one? Are they in print even?

GRMA

I think they are out of print. I got a black and white copy from the Ordnance Survey - you might try getting in touch with them:

http://www.irishmaps.ie/index.cfm

Thanks Aonghus.

I noticed on TG4 news, if you watch the beggining credits, they have an all Irish map panning across the screen in colour. I might drop them a mail to see if they can help me.

Have you seen the Iomairt Cholm Cille map?

I think it may be out of print, but a reprint is planned:

http://www.colmcille.net

Jesus Aonghus, that's exactly what I was looking for! Thanks very much.

http://bartholomewmaps.com/gaelic/test_mapping_150px.asp?pid=1275&id=map&xcoord= 1200&ycoord=3450&xreal=1050&yreal=3450&idx=277653#demo

Very attractive map, but oddly enough, when I clicked on the above link provided by Liam, it takes you to Co. Clare, and I notice that the map includes the little village of Tuaim Gréine on the west bank of Lough Dearg, but omits the larger town of Cill Dalua at the southern end of the lough. Makes one wonder what else might be missing . . .

I managed to get a good quality map in the end.

The map consists of Scotland, N. Ireland, and Éire. I'm going to make a poster for my seomra.

Just want to make sure I have the Gaeilge right.

Scotland - Albain
N Ireland - Thuaisceart ireann
Ireland - Poblacht na hÉireann

Would this be correct?

GRMA

For the record, I was having problems registering before. This is my username: Ceolmhar.. or Liam Ó Bradaigh.

grma

Scotland: Albain

If you're going to be writing the placenames in Gaelic languages (i.e. Irish, Scottish), then it'd make more sense not to differentiate between Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland -- just refer to the island as "Éire".

Northern Ireland - Tuaisceart Éireann
Republic of Ireland - Poblacht na hÉireann

I don't know why "Éireann" is used in the former, while "na hÉireann" is used in the latter... I think "na hÉireann" is more formal and "etched in stone"; consider how you have the constitution "Bunreacht na hÉireann", and how you have the national bus company "Bus Éireann". Maybe it's like the different between "The Constitution of Ireland" and "Ireland's Constitution" -- as you can see, the former is more formal.

It's very confusing isn't it?

At the moment I havit it as:

POBLACHT NA hÉIREANN
República de Irlanda (spanish)
Republic of Ireland

ALBAIN, RA
Escocia, RU (spanish)
Scotland, UK.

TUAISCEART ÉIREANN, RA
Irlanda do Norte, RU (spanish)
Nothern Ireland. UK


Any probs there?

quote:

I don't know why "Éireann" is used in the former, while "na hÉireann" is used in the latter...

Is féidir "Tuaisceart na hÉireann" a scríobh freisin, ach ní hionann iad, de réir dealraimh. Seo mar a mhínigh Mícheál Ó Broin é ar Ghaelic-L na blianta ó shin, agus is dóigh liom go bhfuil an ceart aige:

Polaitíocht seachas Gramadach is cúis leis, déarfainn. De réir mar a thuigim, ciallaíonn Tuaisceart Éireann 'Northern Ireland' agus ciallaíonn Tuaisceart na hÉireann 'the northern (part of) Ireland', agus ní hionann an dá áit.

So by convention, "Tuaisceart Éireann" refers to:


Derry : Doire
Tyrone : Tír Eoghain
Fermanagh : Fear Manach
Antrim : Aontroim
Down : An Dún
Armagh : Ard Mhacha

while, "Tuaisceart na hÉireann" refers to:

Derry
Tyrone
Fermanagh
Antrim
Down
Armagh
--and--
Donegal : Dún na nGall, Tír Chonaill
Monaghan : Muineachán


Presumably the Scotland placenames will be in Scottish, so you should use the Scottish word for "Scotland".

Tá an Cabhán in Uladh chomh maith, más ionann Tuaisceart na hÉireann agus Uladh.

The distinction isn't just political. Tá difríocht tíreolaíochta leis.

Tuaisceart na hÉireann - The north of Ireland .i. íochtar Thír Chonaill, nó Ros Goill, Fanad, Inis Eoghain, srl., Co. Dhún na nGall, (which happens to be the most northern part of Ireland).

Tuaisceart Éireann - Northern Ireland (.i. a political unit, which isn't the most northern part).

Déarfainn go raibh sé sin i gceist ag M. Ó Broin nuair a luaigh sé 'northern part of'.

Is ionann "Tuaisceart Éireann" agus aistriúchán Gaeilge ar an téarma Gallda frithnáisiúnach "Northern Ireland"...téarma nár cheart go mbeadh aon ghlacadh leis i measc na nGael.

Is é "Na Sé Chontae" an téarma atá in úsáid ag na Gaeil.

Níl de leithscéal ag aon duine "Tuaisceart Éireann" a scríobh, seachas b'fhéidir aistritheoir a chaithfidh Gaeilge a chur ar Bhéarla atá scríofa ag na Gaill.

I wouldn't use the term "Tuaisceart Éireann" or "Northern Ireland" at all. They are British / Unionist creations, and they are terms alien to many in the nationalist community. I was over in Spain in the summer and one entertainer said "Is anyone here from Northern Ireland"...everyone from Armagh, Tyrone etc stayed silent and squirmed in our seats..."Is anyone here from Ireland?" he asked, which got a rousing cheer.

I don't intend to start a political debate, but it is impossible to discuss this term free from politics.

Just to point out some things in case you didn't know, In Scots Gael, Scotland is 'Alba'. Éire is the official name of the Irish state, in the original constitution, that referred to the whole island, not just the 26-counties, though in general, people, especially abroad, make or at least made, the disctinction between the North and Éire, which implied the South. I guess in the new article 2 and 3-less constitution the name Éire now refers to the 26 counties and Northern Ireland to the rest. I think the Isle of Man is also in the map, so, in the various Gaelics:

Gaeilge: Oileán Mhanann
Gàidhlig: I think it's the same, ask Dennis
Gaelg: Ellen Vannin (or something like that)

quote:

Gaeilge: Oileán Mhanann
Gàidhlig: I think it's the same, ask Dennis

Eilean Mhanainn
Mana nó Inis Manann sa tSean-Ghaeilge.

On a point of information, articles 2 and 3 have been changed, not removed.

Article 2

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.

Article 3

1. It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory
of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.



2. Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island.


THE STATE


Article 4

The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

"Ellan Vannin" i nGaeilg Mhanann.

The word oileán / eilean / ellan, whch supplanted the earlier inis in common usage, literally means little rock: ail + -án.

GRMA, bhíos sa tóir ar an bpíosa eolais san le fada!

Ar mhaithe le iomláine:

Airteagal 2

Tá gach duine a shaolaítear in oileán na hÉireann, ar a n-áirítear a oileáin agus a fharraigí, i dteideal, agus tá de cheart oidhreachta aige nó aici, a bheith páirteach i náisiún na hÉireann. Tá an teideal sin freisin ag na daoine go leir atá cáilithe ar shlí eile de réir dlí chun bheith ina saoránaigh d'Éirinn. Ina theannta sin, is mór ag náisiún na hÉireann a choibhneas speisialta le daoine de bhunadh na hÉireann atá ina gcónaí ar an gcoigríoch agus arb ionann féiniúlacht agus oidhreacht chultúir dóibh agus do náisiún na hÉireann.

Airteagal 3

1. Is í toil dhiongbháilte náisiún na hÉireann, go sítheach cairdiúil, na daoine go léir a chomhroinneann críoch oileán na hÉireann i bpáirt lena chéile, in éagsúlacht uile a bhféiniúlachtaí agus a dtraidisiún, a aontú, á aithint gur trí mhodhanna síochánta amháin le toiliú thromlach na ndaoine, á chur in iúl go daonlathach, sa dá dhlínse san oileán, a dhéanfar Éire aontaithe a thabhairt i gcrích. Go dtí sin, bainfidh na dlíthe a achtófar ag an bParlaimint a bhunaítear leis an mBunreacht seo leis an limistéar feidhme céanna, agus beidh an raon feidhe céanna acu, lenar bhain na dlíthe, agus a bhí ag na dlíthe, a d'actaigh an Pharlaimint a bhí ar mharthain díreach roimh theacht i gníomh don Bhunreacht seo.

2. Féadfaidh údaráis fhreagracha faoi seach na ndlínsí sin institiúidí ag a mbeidh cumhachtaí agus feidhmeanna feidhmiúcháin a chomhroinntear idir na dlínsí sin a bhunú chun críoch sonraithe agus féadfaidh na hinstitiúidí sin cumhachtaí agus feidhmeanna a fheidhmiú i leith an oileáin ar fad nó i leith aon chuid de.



AN STÁT

Airteagal 4

Éire is ainm don Stát nó, sa Sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland.

"Éire is ainm don Stát nó, sa Sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland. "

GRMA for all the research into this, lads. Some good reading there.

I think I will use 'Éire' and 'Poblacht na hÉireann' in smaller writing on my map. Éire, to me, does indeed refer to the State rather than the island. I just want the map to clearly indicate that Ireland and N. Ireland are different countries. This is just to educate my many foreign visitors to Ireland.

To me, in English, 'Ireland' refers to the State more than the island as a whole. It annoys me when people (particularly English people) ask me if I'm from 'Southern' Ireland or Northern Ireland. My response is usually 'Ireland' or 'The Republic', or 'I'm from Ireland, not N. Ireland.' I know that sounds a little petty but it's just the way I feel. Does any Irish person say they’re from ‘Southern’ Ireland?

When I'm travelling in Europe, I will tell foreigners that I'm from 'República de Irlanda', 'République d'Irlande' or whatever the translation is in the respective languages. There’s a common misconception amongst the Europeans that Ireland is a part of the UK. However, most of them clearly recognise the Irish as people with a much stronger culture, and in general, a lot more amiable that the English.

Out of all the places I’ve visited in Europe, the Dutch seem to be well clued up on the politics between Ireland and the UK. Many times when I’ve been in The NL, I was mistaken for an English person. When I say I’m Irish, they have always been quite overly apologetic. This is the same for people living in Basque region of Spain. They have their own ‘troubles’ with ETA. They are well aware if the IRA, or ‘ear-ah’ as they call it.

From my experience, the majority of Europeans think that the whole island if Ireland is owned by the UK. This is the same for many Americans I've met too - they should know better. Another common misconception with the Europeans is that Scotland is IN England, and England refers to the whole Island of Britain. UK is just another word for the island of England and the island of and Ireland.

What is most surprising to me is that a minority of English people that I have met believed that the island of Ireland is still in the commonwealth. That might have something to do with the history between Ireland and England being non-existent in the British curriculum.. for obvious reasons.

Interesting to see that in the official National Geographic map of the world (2003), Ireland is clearly shown as 'Éire' and coloured as a separate country with 'Baile Átha Cliath' in large writing and 'Dublin' in smaller writing and in brackets. The North is 'N. Ireland (UK)' in very small writing, and coloured the same as the rest of the UK.

Is ait liom do leagan scéil a Liam. Is cosúil go bhfuil féiniúlacht na 26 Co. agat (rud nach bhfuil agam féin cé gur as na 26 Co. mé féin).
Cineál frith-Aontachtóireachais atá agat níos mó ná aon ní a shíneann níos faide siar ná bunú an dá stát.
An bhfuil an ceart agam?

Seosamh, I get a rough idea of what you're saying but I'm not fluent as Gaeilge so I wouldn't be comfortable replying to you. Sorry. I shall state that in my signature.

Testing sig.

Scríobh Ceolmhar:
"I think I will use 'Éire' and 'Poblacht na hÉireann' in smaller writing on my map. Éire, to me, does indeed refer to the State rather than the island. I just want the map to clearly indicate that Ireland and N. Ireland are different countries."

Ceolmhar, a chara, as someone who lives in Éire, in the part called County Tyrone, and as someone who has the misfortune to have landed on the wrong side of an artificial British line, and who lives in the SAME country as everyone from Béal Feirste to Rann na Feirste to Corcaigh and Uíbh Rathaigh, I couldn't accept this unnatural partitionist approach to viewing our country, which has been, and always will be the one country, regardless if at the moment there's a dispute over JURISDICTION. Not even the British would "clearly indicate that Ireland and N. Ireland are different countries." What has possessed you, man?

Is í Éire Éire, agus is cuma fá aon Bhunreacht ná aon rud eile.

Nach féidir "Éire" a thabhairt ar an tír ar fad, agus líne dearg a chur thart ar na 6 chontae agus eolas a chur ar an léarscáil ag rá "Tá na 6 Chontae in oirthuaisceart na hÉireann faoi riail na Sasanach go foill"

Would it not be possible just to call the whole country Éire, then put a red line around the 6 Counties where the border is, and put a notice on the page stating that "the 6 counties in northeast Ireland are still under British rule"...or some other wording that makes it clear that we are talking about the one country but that there is a matter of British jurisdiction in one part of it. No-one has the right to remove a part of Ireland from Ireland, or to split it into two separate countries...even article 2 of the Irish Constitution as outlined by Aonghus makes this clear in its opening line.

So, articles 2 and 3 don't claim the whole island is the country, so by saying that the country extends only to the 26 counties and that the name of the country is Éire, officially speaking, the 26 counties are Éire and the other 6 counties are Northern Ireland.

Dála an scéil, the constitution never says that it wants the whole island as the one country it says it wants to unite the people in the spirit of friendship, etc. That could be done without have a united country. And if the "Irish Nation" as it's called wants a united Ireland, why hasn't it done anything to get it?

Article 2 states:
"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas..."

This is a clear statement of fact...Ireland is an island, and includes its islands and seas. There is no talk of two countries here. Even if there were, I wouldn't accept it. But the fact is there is no talk of two countries here.

The only time the Constitution begins to differentiate between one part and another is when it begins to talk of the "State" and the jurisdiction of the "State"...which is a separate issue. And the fact that they have decided to refer to the state as "Éire" does not mean that they meant to exclude the rest of Éire from Éire...it was a recognition that they had managed to capture the largest part of Éire from the British and wanted to stamp their identity on the new state. This cannot, and was never intended, to end up as an argument to cut the nationalist people of the northeast out of the Irish nation...and it is totally disingenuous to imply otherwise.

I have my passport folks. It has my home address. And on the front it is clearly marked "Éire". And I didn't need a great granny's address 100 years ago to get it. It is one of the very few things that the governments in the 26 Counties did actually achieve for the Irish nation.

There is no debate here. Is í Éire Éire.

Fear na gCrúb i stand right with you. And i think it is damn right selfish, naive and simply wrong that no-one else - particularly those who brand themselves as Irish - stands with us.

Ceolmhar i think you under-estimate the politcal feelings of people towards partition.

"The british govt has no right in Ireland, never had any right in Ireland ,never can have any right in Ireland " James Connolly.

And more to the point ; "The ending of partition was inevitable because Eire was one nation by history and tradition , by facts of race, geography, and economy.." (Costello).
There is NO border. I recognise four parts of Ireland.
Leinster. Munster. Connaught. Ulster.

NI is NOT a country.

Tírghrá,
Cathaoirleach Sinn Féin Ollscoil Chathair Bhaile Atha Cliath.

Go raibh céad maith agat, a Dhomhnaill...is mo/r againn do thacaíocht...cuid den aon tír amháin muid ar fad...agus le cuidiú Dé, na polaitíochta no/ eile, beidh muid mar chuid den aon stát amháin amach anseo, agus cearta, saoirse agus síocháin i réim!

Sorry, I shouldn't have used the word 'country' for NI.

As far as I'm concerned I live in a country called ROI, and Northern Ireland is a region of the UK. It's a place that I am not a citizen of. Therfore, I see a clear political border between ROI and NI.

There is a lot of confusion over what to call it. I think they could have made a bit more effort with the Irish constituation to define the two. Perhaps they should have done something this:

The island remains 'Ireland'
The free state be called 'Ceolland'
The north be called 'Norringland'

Obviously you would have better names than that but you get the drift! Now Irish people can call themselves Ceolish, and Northerners can call themselves Norish, British or even Ceolish as they can apply for Ceolish passports.

FnaC, that's all well and good, but, since the state of Éire has relinquished it's claim on the 6 north-eastern counties on the island of Ireland, then the name of the Republic is Éire and the rest, isn't. This isn't about countries or any of that, I was just talking State-wise, the Irish state, free of British rule is Éire, the rest of the island of Ireland is Britain. I can expect your response, but I'm not saying NI isn't Ireland in the abstract nationalist way, I'm talking constitutionally and technically. I only drew the line so as to make sure Ceolmhar knew which way to mark his map and I think he does so I'm not going to get into any more.

The northern part of Ireland occupied by the British I refer to it as "the occupied six counties". Éire is indeed the name in Irish of the 26 county Ireland. However British media and the colonies such as Australia and New Zealand often refer to the Republic of Ireland as Éire because they don't want to accept this part got independence or thats the only reason I can think they use it. I don't call Wales Cymru or Spain Espana nor do the British media which write in the English language. When abroad I find Dutch people very knowledgable and British people incredibly ignorant. It seems they don't realise or learn anything about Irish history in their schools.

Scríobh Dalta
"So, articles 2 and 3 don't claim the whole island is the "COUNTRY", so by saying that the "COUNTRY" extends only to the 26 counties and that the name of the "COUNTRY" is Éire..." (MY CAPITALS)

Fosta, scríobh Dalta
"This isn't about COUNTRIES (my capitals) or any of that, I was just talking State-wise, the Irish state, free of British rule is Éire, the rest of the island of Ireland is Britain"

Is it about "countries" or is it not about "countries" Dalta. Sin í mo cheist.

If you talk about the State, Dalta, I will not disagree with you. But we must all be clear about the difference between State and Country when we are talking about Ireland. And I accept your difference, when you actually make it. And remember, a very very very large minority of people up here want to be a part of the Irish State. We are actually a part of Ireland, by any measure. And we never elected to be a minority. Other people decided this by force.

My question is, when the Irish Government accept my address on my passport, and still put "Éire" on the passport...what are they telling me? Am I a welcome visitor? or am I a full citizen?

(Message edited by fear_na_gcrúb on December 25, 2005)

Scríobh Ceolmhar
"The island remains 'Ireland'
The free state be called 'Ceolland'
The north be called 'Norringland' "


The only word I can think for this argument Ceolmhar is "cookooland"

Scríobh Dalta
"This isn't about COUNTRIES (my capitals) or any of that, I was just talking State-wise, the Irish state, free of British rule is Éire, the rest of the island of Ireland is Britain"

Another question Dalta, why, when these buggers from the so called UK are taking part in the Olympics, why do they say, when some scallywag from the 6 counties has the misfortune to represent them, why do they day on the TV "Great Britain and Northern Ireland"????????

Do you know why? Because, even though you can have the misfortune to be a British Subject in "Northern Ireland", even then, they themselves realise the technical difference between Britain and Ireland, even in a technical British sense, if we want to get technical here.

So even from a technical British point of view, where does your statement stand "the rest of Ireland is Britain".

Watch the Olympics in London...and tell me who is running for who....Great Britain is "England, Scotland, and Wales" and a few other wee bits and pieces. Not even the British regard "Northern Ireland" as a part of Britain. If somebody is fast enough in the 6 counties, the TV will read "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" and hopefully he or she will get beat.


Muscail a chara, muscail. Tiocfaidh ciall chugat lá éigin.

"So even from a technical British point of view, where does your statement stand "the rest of Ireland is Britain". "

I think he meant, "the rest of Ireland is the UK"

This thread will be closed at 10:00 PM EST, 3:00 AM GMT.

Caoimhín

yeah, the only thing more volatile than politics is Irish politics...