Chonaic mé 'Scoil Bhríde' san alt sin ó Dhavid McWilliams, cén fáth a bhfuil an séimhiú ann? Nach bhfuil sé sa tuiseal ginideach? Dhá ainmfhocal le chéile. Is 'School of Bríd' atá ann, nach bhfuil, sin cúis leis an 'e' ag an deireadh. Chomh maith, chonaic mé Scéal Dhennis á rá le Lughaidh tamall ó shin agus bhí fúm an cheist a chur ach rinne mé dearmad.

Cabhair éinne?

Bíonn séimhiú ar fhocal sa tuiseal ghinideach nuair is ainm dílis ("proper noun") gan alt atá ann: ainm duine, ainm áite, srl.

Íontach maith, míle buíochas díot a Lughaidh.

With a masculine noun:

Scéal Sheáin

With a feminine noun:

Áit Sheáin

"Seán" is a proper noun, so it gets a séimhiú regardless of the gender of the preceeding noun. Similarly:

scéal mhac an mhadra
áit mhac an mhadra

But when you're dealing with indefinite nouns:

scéal madra
áit mhadra

--

The title of this thread should be:

Séimhithe sa Tuiseal Ginideach

There's no reason to stick a "h" on "Séimhithe", and you only use a "u" for the plural when the last vowel is broad, eg.:

an brostú - na brostuithe
an séimhiú - na séimhithe

--

There's a secondry school in Clondalkin called:

Coláiste Bríde

They've got that exact title written on everything, from their school journals to the 10 foot sign outside the place... obviously we're not dealing with proficient speakers of Irish -- otherwise it would be "Coláiste Bhríde".

Tá brón orm faoin teideal, 'siad rudaí atá ar fhios agam, níl fhios agam cad a tharla.

Ach, thug tú dhá cheist eile dom a Fhir, cén fáth a bhfuil séimhiú ag 'mac an madra', an é an 'suspended genitive' atá i gceist? Cinnte, nach féidir a lán mic madraí a bheith ann?

Agus le 'áit mhadra', is dócha, tá séimhiú ann gan an alt tar éis ainmfhocal baininscnigh, nach bhfuil?

Tá, go minic (tá eisceachtaí ann, gheobhaidh tú i dtús New Irish Grammar iad).

First of all, I'll address your "suspended genitive" question. As you know, when you want to "put two words together", as in "school bag", then the second one goes in the genitive case. Thus you have:

mála scoile (not mála scoil)

This happens regardless of how many nouns there are:

a boy's school bag
mála scoile buachalla (not mála scoile buachaill)

But there's a cut-off point, so to speak, when the first definite noun comes in. A noun can be made definite by simply putting "the" before it (ie. an buachaill), or it can be a title of a person or place (ie. Seán, Gailimh). When you've got a definite noun, you only put that definite noun in the genitive, and all other definite nouns remain untouched -- all that happens is that they get a séimiú:

the man's son's bag
mála mhac an fhir (not mála mic an fhir)

But... indefinite nouns aren't affected by this rule, so they are put in the genitive. The net affect of this is that you could have a string of nouns, some of them in the genitive, some of them untouched:

the man's son's school bag
mála scoile mhac an fhir

If we analyse this term we see that there's three definites: mála, mac, fear

"scoile" is not definite, it's almost just like an ajective here.

Here's a few more examples:

the people of Galway
muintir na Gailimhe

tuairim mhuintir na Gailimhe
the opinion of the people of Galway

the people of Galway's rodent infestation problem
fadhb inmhíolaithe cheimirí mhuintir na Gailimhe

the history of the people of Galway's rodent infestation problem
stair fhadhb inmhíolaithe cheimirí mhuintir na Gailimhe

I'll break down that last one; the nouns are:

stair: history
fadhb: problem
inmhíolú: infestation
ceimire: rodent
muintir: people
Gailimh: Galway

Firstly, we have "rodent infestation", which is:

inmhíolú ceimirí

I've used the genitive plural of "ceimire", which is "ceimirí". There's no séimiú on "ceimirí" because "inmhíolú" is masculine.

Secondly, we have "rodent infestion problem"; so we put "rodent infestation" in the genitive case:

fadhb inmhíolaithe cheimirí

Now there's a séimhiú on "ceimirí" because the noun it describes is masculine and in the genitive case.

Thirdly, we have "the people of Galway", which is:

Muintir na Gailimhe

This is the first place where the suspended genitive comes into play. Putting the two chunks together, we have:

fadhb inmhíolaithe cheimirí mhuintir na Gailimhe

So far, there's three definite nouns:

fadhb
muintir
Gailimh

Now finally, we want "the history of the people of Galway's rodent infestation problem". The suspended genitive is used again to finally yield:

stair fhadhb inmhíolaithe cheimirí mhuintir na Gailimhe

Overall here's the three golden rules:

(A) All indefinite nouns get put in the genitive case. (inmhíolú, ceimire)

(B) The last definite noun is put in the genitive case. (Gailimh)

(C) Any remaining definite nouns remain untouched, but they get a séimhiú. (stair, fadhb, muintir)

It's possible for nouns to follow the last definite noun... let's replace "Galway" with "beautiful Galway". We'll use the word "álainn" for "beautiful":

stair fhadhb inmhíolaithe cheimirí mhuintir na Gailimhe áille

Note that "áille" is now in its feminine genitive case (adjectives have different genitive cases depending on the gender of the noun they describe).

Let's go even further:

the amazing history of the friendly people of Galway's horrible diseased rodent infestation problem
stair iontach fhadhb uafásach inmhíolaithe cheimirí galracha mhuintir chairdiúil na Gailimhe

To address your second question: yes, there's a séimhiú (or lack of séimhiú) regardless of whether there's "an" before it:

an áit mhadra
áit mhadra

an t-úll madra
úll madra

Hmm... I'm not sure if I'm entirely correct.

If we say "a boy's problem":

fadhb bhuachalla

and then we want to say "a boy's horrible problem", then I'm not sure if you say:

fadhb uafásach bhuachalla

-or-

fadhb bhuachalla uafáscach


One may argue that the latter means:

a horrible boy's problem

but, if we treat "fadhb bhuachalla" as one unit, then the adjective should follow the entire unit, which would give us:

fadhb bhuachalla uafásach

Can anyone give any input on this?

One may argue that the latter means:

a horrible boy's problem

but, if we treat "fadhb bhuachalla" as one unit, then the adjective should follow the entire unit, which would give us:

fadhb bhuachalla uafásach


Normally the adjective follows the noun it goes with, so you'd say "fadhb uafásach bhuachalla". The correct expression for "good week-end" is "deireadh maith seachtaine", and so on (learnt that at the university). Maybe some people say "deireadh seachtaine maith" but it isn't as clear, and isn't "logical".

How about a simple sentence:

Seán has a big school bag.

Let's take a vote: Who's says

A) Tá mála scoile mór ag Seán

B) Tá mála mór scoile ag Seán


Whether I'm right or wrong, I say A (although this could just be the influence of the English language).

With normal adjectives it'd be B
I find with adjectives ABC is CAB at least 90% of the time
But in this example as Scoile is a genitive form used as adjective it doesn't look right to separate mála and scoile. Further input needed.

Other examples follow the abc - cab
Big(a) Black(b) Bag(c)
Mála(c) mór(a) dubh(b)

Srl..

I think people saying "Deireadh Seachtaine maith" are treating deireadh seachtaine as a compound noun (le weekend, comme on dit en Français!)

>>Maybe some people say "deireadh seachtaine maith" but it isn't as clear, and isn't "logical".

I cannot agree with that.
Aonghus is right: if the adjective comes at the end, it means that "deireadh seachtaine" is treated as a syntheme.
This process happens all the time in every language.

I know but you can say "deireadh maith seachtaine" as well (learnt that with my old teacher). And the plural is "deirí seachtaine" so it isn't really a compound word.

Pléann na Bráithre Críostaí (.i. Liam Ó hAnluain) an cheist seo i bparagraf §208.

"Má tá dlúthcheangal idir ainmfhocal amháin agus ainmfhocal ginideach éiginnte atá á cháiliú, cuirtear an t-ainmfhocal ginideach idir an chéad ainmfhocal agus aon aidiacht a thagann ina dhiaidh á cháiliú: gach tiarna talún nua; an chéad sagart paróiste eile; cailín aimsire sláintiúil. [...] I gcásanna eile tá an dá eagar coitianta: teach gloine breá; teach breá gloine."

Domsa, tá cuma a lán níos fearr ar mála mór scoile, níl fhios agam cén fáth, ceapaim gur chuala mé cúpla uair sa bhunscoil. Ach nach ceart é a bheith 'mála mhór scoile' mar tá mála firinscneach ag críochnú le gutha.

A Fhir na mBróg, ar dtús, go raibh míle maith agat as an mhíniú sin, bhí sé an-shoiléir agus an-cabhrach. Ach, maidir leis an 'ABC' seo:
(A) All indefinite nouns get put in the genitive case. (inmhíolú, ceimire)

(B) The last definite noun is put in the genitive case. (Gailimh)

(C) Any remaining definite nouns remain untouched, but they get a séimhiú. (stair, fadhb, muintir)

Le 'C', cén fáth a bhfuil stair, fadhb agus muintir dílise? Níl aon alt leo.