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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (November-December) » Archive through December 23, 2005 » Pronounciation of -igh and -idh in Munster Irish « Previous Next »

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1153
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 06:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Haigh a chairde

I'd like to talk about the pronounciation of final verbal -igh and -idh in Munster Irish, because some of us don't pronounce them well in the recordings.

The rule is:

- final verbal -(a)igh and -(a)idh (as in -f(a)idh) , -óidh, -eoidh have a final slender g in pronounciation in Munster Irish ONLY when the following subject is another thing than the personal pronouns (mé, mise, tú, tusa, sé, seisean, sí, sise, muid, muidne, sinn, sinne, sibh, sibhse, siad, siadsan). With these pronouns, the ending is:

-(a)igh, -(a)idh = /ə/
-óidh, -eoidh = /oː/

With other subjects (demonstrative pronouns, nouns, etc) you'd have:

-(a)igh, -(a)idh = /ig´/
-óidh, -eoidh = /oːg´/


So:

rachaidh mé /raə m´eː/ (actually "raghaidh" in Munster)
rachaidh Seán /raig’ s’ɑːn/

ceannóidh sé /k´aNoː s´eː/
ceannóidh Bríd /k´aNoːg´ b´r´iːd´/

chuaigh tú /xuːə tuː/
chuaigh an fear /xuːig´ ə f´ar/

That is to say, "thriomaigh sé" is never pronounced /hr´omig´ s´eː/ but /hr´omə s´eː/. See An Teanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhne p. 45 (about ceannaigh), etc.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2673
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 04:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm reassured if that is all you can find to complain about! But I can't see the IPA symbols, and I'm not sure what is wrong.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 851
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 04:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The pronounciation guidelines Lughaidh gives are correct, but what he's written isn't really Munster Irish. It's Standard Irish with a Munster pronunciation. Nothing wrong with that, but perhaps the headline shouldn't say "Munster Irish".

I'm in a terrible rush, so I'll come back to this subject in the afternoon.

(Message edited by Jonas on December 12, 2005)

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1156
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 05:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I do know that, Jonas, but I just wanted to help people who speak standard Irish with a Munster-like pronounciation. I know they say "raghad" for rachaidh mé, ceannód for ceannóidh mé, do chuas for chuaigh mé etc in Munster. But the principle is the same if people want to say "chuaigh mé", they have to know that it isn't possible to say "chuaig mé" because you can't say "chuaig sé" but "chua sé", etc.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2674
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 06:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is dóigh liom go dtuigim. Éistfead leis an méid a dúirt mé arís. Ach ní fheicim ach cearnóga do roinnt de'd IPA thuas!

(Message edited by aonghus on December 12, 2005)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2675
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 08:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To avoid any misunderstanding - I do not claim to speak Munster Irish.

The Irish I speak is most heavily influenced by Munster Irish, and my accent is heavily influenced by/close to Munster Irish.


But I am an urban speaker of Irish, subject to many influences.

It should not be assumed that my pronunciation is intended to be an accurate guide to any particular dialect.

I read for the recodings as naturally as possible, without any attempt to be perfect.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1157
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 08:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is dóigh liom go dtuigim. Éistfead leis an méid a dúirt mé arís. Ach ní fheicim ach cearnóga do roinnt de'd IPA thuas!

?? Tá eagla orm nach dtuigim cad é atá á ráidht agat...

The Irish I speak is most heavily influenced by Munster Irish, and my accent is heavily influenced by/close to Munster Irish.

I know, but "thriomaigh mé" wouldn't be pronounced /hr´omig´ m´eː/ in any dialect, so if you pronounce like that, it isn't because your Irish has many influences... ;-)

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2676
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 11:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní fheicim gach litir IPA (níl na clófoirne cearta agam is dócha), mar sin ní haon chabhair dom iad.


Many influences includes wrong ones! I made a mistake, I'll fix it. Normally I would pronounce it without the "g" sound at the end.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1159
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 11:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Strange that you can't see all symbols. In Gentium there are all IPA symbols. Where have you downloaded the font from? Does somebody else have the same problem?

About final -igh/-idh, we have kinda the same difficulty in Donegal (but not in Connemara I think), these endings are pronounced /ə/ when the following subject is mé, tú, sé, sí, etc, and /i/ in other cases:

rachaidh mé /Rahə m´a/
rachaidh Seán /Rahi s´æːn/

chuaigh sé /xuə s´a/
chuaigh Bríd /xuəj b´r´iːd´/

ceannó(cha)idh mé /k´aNahə m´a/
ceannó(cha)idh an bhean /k´aNahi nv´an/

In Connemara, as far as I know, they prononce all these -igh, -idh as /ə/ whatever the subject is.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2678
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 04:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I haven't downloaded gentium (yet). I can see the symbols at home, but not at work. However, since I don't understand all of them...

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1163
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 04:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Just ask me if there is a symbol you don't know ;-)

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2679
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 05:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cén mhaith é sin? Bheadh orm é a chlos, agus fiú ansin ní bheinn cinnte é thabhairt liom.

Níl sé ar mo chumas do mhionanailís ar fhuaimeanna a leanacht.

Baineann sé le do ghairm, agus tuigim dhuit - ach ní hé mo ghairmse é.



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