I thought I'd start a new thread for that now...


"Bhí orm Cáit a phosadh" is said to be subjectless.

Now,

1/ We can have "Bhí orm siúl".
- Can we get rid of the verbal noun : "Bhí orm"?

2/ We can have "Bhí orm bheith ag súil le /Bhí orm bheith ag tromaíocht ar"
- Can we have just a noun: "Bhí orm súil le /Bhí orm tromaíocht ar"?

In *"Bhí orm Cáit a phosadh," the subject would be "Cáit a phósadh."

1. A: We can have "B'éigean dom é."

2. A: No.

Typically, the subject of a sentence and the object of a sentence have to be a noun:

John hit Mary. Noun Verb Noun.
Chonaic mé an cat. Briathar Ainmfhocal Ainmfhocal.

But in Irish, there's times when things get a bit hazy:

Theip orm sa scrúdú.
I failed the exam.

Here, the subject of the sentence (ie. the thing doing the action) is "orm". The object of the sentence, well... I'm not sure if you'd say there's an object, merely a preposition followed by a noun.

In the case of "Bhí orm Cáit a phósadh":

I learned at school that some verbs come in the form of "Verb+Preposition"... I suppose you could simply think of it as an alternate syntax rather than as having no subject. For instance, you could argue that the verb is "bhí ar", and that the subject is "mé". There's a few verbs which work like that:

succeed = éirigh le
(D'éirigh liom sa scrúdú)

fail = teip air
(Theip orm é a fháil)

have to do something = bí ar
(Bhí orm Cáit a phósadh)

Succeed can be said with "dul + ag" > chuaigh agam é a dhéanamh = I succeeded to do it.

There's another sample for you, Max:

succeed = téigh ag
Rachaidh orm é a dhéanamh (I'll succeed in doing it).

"Theip orm sa scrúdú." and "D'éirigh liom sa scrúdú" are very useful to me, thanks.

Do you know any other examples where we have:
Verb + prepositional pronoun + preposition + verbal noun ?

Question: why is it "Rachaidh orm é a dhéanamh"? If it's "téigh ag" it should be "Rachaidh agam é a dhéanamh".

"B'éigean dom é." is a copula sentence.
But let's see: how would you say "I had to do it" using "B'éigean dom..." ?

------------------------------

Grammar tips:

In *"Bhí orm Cáit a phosadh," the subject would be "Cáit a phósadh."

The subject could not be both "Cáit" and "posadh".

the subject of the sentence (ie. the thing doing the action)

simple counter-example:
"I was given a book" : "I" is the subject, and it is certainly not doing the action.
The definition you give is the one of a semantic role, i.e. "agent". But "subject" and "agent" are two different things.

Question: why is it "Rachaidh orm é a dhéanamh"? If it's "téigh ag" it should be "Rachaidh agam é a dhéanamh".

Just a mistake, I'd say ;-)

"B'éigean dom é." is a copula sentence.
But let's see: how would you say "I had to do it" using "B'éigean dom..." ?

B'éigean dom é a dhéanamh.


In *"Bhí orm Cáit a phósadh," the subject would be "Cáit a phósadh."

Is fíor sin.

>> In *"Bhí orm Cáit a phósadh," the subject would be "Cáit a phósadh."
>>Is fíor sin.

Again, under no condition can "Cáit a phósadh" be the subject. If there is a subject, it's either "Cáit" or "pósadh". And since we have "bhí orm siúl", we can infer that "Cáit" is only the object of "posadh" and cannot be the subject. Therefore, in the sentence "Bhí orm Cáit a phósadh", the subject is either "mé" or "posadh" or non-existent.

>>D'éirigh liom sa scrúdú
>>Theip orm é a fháil

could we have: "d'éirigh liom" = "I succeeded" and "theip orm" = "I failed" ?

Max:

I had to (marry Kate)

Bhí orm Cáit a phósadh

"Cáit a phósadh" is the object,

quote:

could we have: "d'éirigh liom" = "I succeeded" and "theip orm" = "I failed" ?

Yes.

What about:
"I succeeded to marry Kate": "D'éirigh liom Cáit a phosadh" ?

Could we also have "D'éirigh liom é" and "theip orm é" ?

quote:

under no condition can "Cáit a phósadh" be the subject

Ní thuigim. Why can't a noun phrase be a subject?

quote:

could we have: "d'éirigh liom" = "I succeeded" and "theip orm" = "I failed" ?

Yes.

Tharla gur bhreac mé síos liosta de seemingly subjectless sentences ó fhoinsí éagsúla i mo leabhrán. Seo agat é. Have fun!

Chinn orm é a dhéanamh.
Chlis orm an doras a dhúnadh.
Caithfidh go bhfuil an fear ann.
Tá faoi an bóthar a thabhairt dom.
D'éirigh liom é a dhéanamh.
Theip orm é a dhéanamh.

Tá teipthe aige/air.
Tá géillte aige.
Tá ite cheana agam.
Tá tugtha suas agam.
Dhein sagart dó.
Dhein scéal mór dó.

D'éirigh idir na fir.
Bhí linn.
Bhris ar an bhfoighne agam.
Mhéadaigh ar an éileamh.
Chiúnaigh ar chabaireacht na bpáistí.

Dhubhaigh aige. = He got depressed.
Rith leis féin. = He did well.
Ná fuil ort fós? = Aren't you dressed yet?
Chuaigh air aici. = She defeated him.

What about:
"I succeeded to marry Kate": "D'éirigh liom Cáit a phosadh" ?

Could we also have "D'éirigh liom é" and "theip orm é" ?

Sounds odd to me. I don't think you can use these expressions without any verbal noun. But wait for other peoples' answers.

quote:

"I succeeded to marry Kate": "D'éirigh liom Cáit a phosadh" ?

Níl aon locht ar an nGaeilge, ach tá an Béarla fabhtach: I succeeded in marrying Kate.

quote:

Sounds odd to me.

Ditto.

>>ach tá an Béarla fabhtach: I succeeded in marrying Kate.

Oops !
The funny thing is that I had an odd feeling about this sentence but couldn't determine what was wrong...

>>Ní thuigim. Why can't a noun phrase be a subject?

But it's not a noun phrase...

------------------

Tell me if I got it right:

Chinn orm é a dhéanamh. = I decided to do it
Chlis orm an doras a dhúnadh. = I failed to open the door
Caithfidh go bhfuil an fear ann. = the man must be here
Tá faoi an bóthar a thabhairt dom. = he wants to sack me
D'éirigh liom é a dhéanamh. = I managed to do it
Theip orm é a dhéanamh. = I failed to do it

Tá teipthe aige/air. = he succeeded
Tá géillte aige. = he surrendered
Tá ite cheana agam. = I have already eaten
Tá tugtha suas agam. = I gave up
Dhein sagart dó. = ?
Dhein scéal mór dó. = ?

D'éirigh idir na fir. = The men fell out
Bhí linn. = we have succeeded
Bhris ar an bhfoighne agam. = I lost my patience
Mhéadaigh ar an éileamh. = ? increased
Chiúnaigh ar chabaireacht na bpáistí. = the children's chatter died down

>Tá ite cheana agam. = I have already eaten

Tá ite agam cheana féin. (Sounds odd, never heard that but i may be mistaken)

Dhein sagart dó. = ?
Dhein scéal mór dó. = ?

Dhein is the Munster form of "déan" in the past (rinne in the standard & Connemara, rinn in Donegal)


The other sentences look right.

Max, perhaps you'd understand Standard Irish better than Munster dialect:
Dhein sagart dó. = Rinne sagart de.
Dhein scéal mór dó. = Rinne scéal mór de.

Lars

Wouldn't it be "Rinneadh sagart de" ?

Dhein sagart dó. = Rinne sagart de. = he became a priest?
Dhein scéal mór dó. = Rinne scéal mór de. = a great story was made of it/him? he became a legend?


In these sentences, could we introduce a subject: indefinite or sé?
like:

rinne sé scéal mór de ?
rinneadh scéal mór de ?

Tá sé géillte aige. ?
Táthar géillte aige. ?

Caithfidh sé go bhfuil an fear ann ?
Caithfear go bhfuil an fear ann ?

Chlis sé orm an doras a dhúnadh ?
Cliseadh orm an doras a dhúnadh ?

Lughaidh: Wouldn't it be "Rinneadh sagart de" ?

No, it wouldn't.
Ó Dónaill, p. 381:
déan de: "2. (impersonal use) Become.
Rinne bean di, she became a woman. Dhéanfadh sioc de, it would turn to frost."

"Rinneadh sagart de": That would mean: "Someone made a priest of him". (Ó Dónaill, p. 380, déan de, 1.)

Lars

"Rinneadh sagart de": That would mean: "Someone made a priest of him". (Ó Dónaill, p. 380, déan de, 1.)

The autonomous form of a verb can be translated by a passive in English as well: He was made a priest (?).

"Caithfear go bhfuil an fear ann" can't be said, it doesn't mean anything.

Lughaidh a scríobh:
> The autonomous form of a verb can be translated by a
> passive in English as well: He was made a priest(?).

Yes, of course.
But there is still a difference between
"He was made ... [by someone unmentioned]" (rinneadh ... de)
and "He became ..." (rinne ... de).

Lars

Chinn orm é a dhéanamh. = I decided to do it

No. "I failed to do it." There are two different verbs "cinn".

Mhéadaigh ar an éileamh. = ? increased

The demand (for something) increased.

rinne sé scéal mór de ?
rinneadh scéal mór de ?

Both fine.

Tá sé géillte aige. ?
Táthar géillte aige. ?

The first is grammatical, although I'd probably never think to say it. The sense I get from it is "He has managed to concede it." I think the second is possibly, arguably, grammatical, but rather odd in fact! I sure wouldn't bet on it. ;-)

Caithfidh sé go bhfuil an fear ann ?
Caithfear go bhfuil an fear ann ?

The first is fine, merely a variant of the same sentence without "sé". The second is odd, not because you can't say "caithfear", but because the part after "go" is in the present tense. "Caithfear go mbeidh an fear ann" would mean "It will be necessary for the man to be there," or something like that.

Chlis sé orm an doras a dhúnadh ?
Cliseadh orm an doras a dhúnadh ?

The "sé" in the first is optional, no problem. The second sounds very odd, and is probably not possible at all.

There. That's enough opinions to get myself in trouble!

>>rinne sé scéal mór de ?
>>rinneadh scéal mór de ?
>>Both fine.

Now I think of it, shouldn't there be a semantic difference between "rinne sé scéal mór de" (he made a great story of it) and "rinne scéal móre de" (it became a great story) ?

>>"Caithfear go mbeidh an fear ann" would mean "It will be necessary for the man to be there," or something like that.

But then again, you could have "Caithfidh (sé) go mbeidh an fear ann" to say that, couldn't you?

>>Chlis sé orm an doras a dhúnadh ?
>>The "sé" in the first is optional, no problem.

Would it be "optional" with the verb "tá" too?
- Tá sé faoi an bóthar a thabhairt dom. ?
- Bhí sé linn. ?

>>"Caithfear go mbeidh an fear ann" would mean "It will be necessary for the man to be there," or something like that.

But then again, you could have "Caithfidh (sé) go mbeidh an fear ann" to say that, couldn't you?

No, it means "undoubtedly the man will be there" (le verbe devoir au sens de certitude: cf "à cette heure-ci il doit certainement être à la maison").

>>Chlis sé orm an doras a dhúnadh ?
>>The "sé" in the first is optional, no problem.

Would it be "optional" with the verb "tá" too?
- Tá sé faoi an bóthar a thabhairt dom. ?
- Bhí sé linn. ?

No, you can't say that. Most of the time when you have these sentences without subject, i think you can't use "sé", it would change the meaning of the sentence.

Caithfear an fear a bheith ann. One/You will need the man to be there.
However, Caithfear an fear go bhfuil/abhfuil ann. You'll need the man who is there. (You mean the guy over there right now?)
'Sea. Caithfear an fear sinse abhfuil ann a bheith úd amarach!

Hoi, an ndéanann sin?

Sounds odd to me. Caithfear an fear a bheith ann = one must the man to be there...

"an fear a bhfuil ann" doesn't mean anything. "The man who is there" is "an fear atá ann".

Ah, yes, I thought of atá after I'd put that in. And I understand what you mean by the second one now.
Perhaps - Teastóidh an fear atá ann a bheith úd leat amarach. ?
Or - Beidh an fear uait atá ann a bheith úd leat amarach. ??? Eek...Do I ask which is better or which is worse. :-)

Ná fuil ort fós? = Aren't you dressed yet?

- is it standard? in which case i don't understand
- or should it be "nach bhfuil ort" in standard?

Tá an ceart agat, Max. Ná fuil ort (which is the Munster norm) = nach bhfuil ort. Technically speaking, "ná fuil" is Caighdeánach. The Caighdeán Oifigiúil is primarily a standard of spelling, and it recognizes as valid all forms regularly used in the dialects.

Dála an scéil, the examples in my list that begin with "Tá teipthe aige/air" and end with "Dhein scéal mór dó" all come from Corca Dhuibhne. Matt Mac Cárthaigh gave them to me a few years ago. He's the guy behind Fios Feasa: http://www.fiosfeasa.com/gaeilge/


(Message edited by dennis on December 10, 2005)

Thank you very much Dennis for all your examples, I'll come back soon with an attempt to sum up what I have...

This is where I am so far...
Could you please review the examples below and tell me where I'm mistaken?


“tá” + prepositional pronoun + verbal noun:

Bhí orm siúl = I had to walk
Bhí orm Cáit a phósadh = I had to marry Kate
Tá faoi an bóthar a thabhairt dom. = he wants to sack me

- No insertion of “sé“ or indefinite:
Bhí sé orm siúl: doesn’t exist
Bhíothas orm siúl: doesn’t exist
- The verbal noun is not optional:
Bhí orm: doesn’t exist

“tá” + prepositional pronoun + verbal noun:

Bhí linn. = we have succeeded
Ná fuil ort fós? = Aren't you dressed yet?

- Possible insertion of “sé“ or indefinite, but changes the meaning:
Bhí sé linn. = He was with us
Bhíothas linn. = One was with us (though awkward)
- Possible addition of a verbal noun:
Bhí linn é a dhéanamh: We managed to do it
Bhí linn siúl: We managed to walk


Verb + prepositional pronoun:
Possible insertion of “sé“ without changing the meaning

Chuaigh (sé) agam é a dhéanamh = I managed to do it.
Chuaigh (sé) air aici. = She defeated him.
Dhubhaigh (sé) aige. = He got depressed.
Rith (sé) leis féin. = He did well.
Chinn (sé) orm é a dhéanamh. = I failed to do it
Chlis (sé) orm an doras a dhúnadh. = I failed to open the door
D'éirigh (sé) liom é a dhéanamh. = I managed to do it
D'éirigh (sé) liom sa scrúdú = I passed the exam
D'éirigh (sé) liom Cáit a phosadh = I managed to marrry Kate
D'éirigh liom é = I managed it ?
D'éirigh (sé) liom = I succeeded
Theip (sé) orm é a dhéanamh. = I failed to do it
Theip (sé) orm sa scrúdú. = I failed the exam.
Theip (sé) orm é a fháil = I failed to get it
Theip orm é = I failed it ?
Theip (sé) orm = I failed
Bhris (sé) ar an bhfoighne agam. = I lost my patience
Mhéadaigh (sé) ar an éileamh. = The demand increased
Chiúnaigh (sé) ar chabaireacht na bpáistí. = The children's chatter died down


Verb + verbal adjective:

Tá teipthe aige/air. = he succeeded
Tá géillte aige. = he surrendered
Tá ite cheana agam. = I have already eaten
Tá tugtha suas agam. = I gave up

Insertion of “sé“ changes the structure into a passive form
Tá ite cheana agam. = It is already eaten by me

Verb + noun + prepositional pronoun:
Possible insertion of “sé“ or the indefinite, but changes the meaning

Rinne scéal mór de. = A great story was made of it/him
Rinne sé scéal mór de = He made a great story of it
Rinneadh scéal mór de = A great story was made of it
Rinne sagart de. = He became a priest
Dhéanfadh sioc de = It would turn to frost.

Is fada an liosta é, Max, a bhfuil idir dhubh, bhán is bhreac ann. How about I go through it in installments -- with some help from Aonghus, Lughaidh, Asarlaí, et al.?

Bhí orm siúl = I had to walk
Bhí orm Cáit a phósadh = I had to marry Kate
Tá faoi an bóthar a thabhairt dom. = he wants to sack me

All fine, but I'd translate the last as "he intends to..."

Well, of course, installments are fine by me ! I really appreciate the help you are giving me.

The really important point is to know whether each listed sentence works as described (according to the groups they belong to) or not.

quote:

Bhí orm: doesn’t exist

Might exist as a reply to a question.
Cén fath go ndearna tú é sin? Bhí orm.

quote:

D'éirigh liom é = I managed it ?

Don't think so. Needs a verb.

Tá teipthe aige/air. = he succeeded failed - but I think you know that?

Looking again, I don't think I agree with any of this category:
Verb + prepositional pronoun:
Possible insertion of “sé“ without changing the meaning
- I thinbk the "sé" either breaks the phrase, or changes the meaning when it makes a valid phrase. But this is gut feeling.

>> I thinbk the "sé" either breaks the phrase, or changes the meaning when it makes a valid phrase.

Could you be more specific?

>>But this is gut feeling.

Gut feelings are often all we can rely on when dealing with semantics... ;-)

Looking at the next section:

“tá” + prepositional pronoun + verbal noun:

Bhí linn. = we have succeeded
Ná fuil ort fós? = Aren't you dressed yet?

- Possible insertion of “sé“ or indefinite, but changes the meaning:
Bhí sé linn. = He was with us
Bhíothas linn. = One was with us (though awkward)

OK.

BTW, the syntax of the autonomous forms of the substantive verb probably needs to be looked at separately, to understand the constraints.

- Possible addition of a verbal noun:
Bhí linn é a dhéanamh: We managed to do it
Bhí linn siúl: We managed to walk

I think this semantic structure is fine in the abstract, but these are not actual idioms that I know. You could replace "linn" with something else:

Bhí orainn é a dhéanamh. = We had to do it.

Or change the verb:

D'éirigh linn siúl. = We managed to walk.

quote:

Could you be more specific?

Probably, if I had time! I'll try.

Ceist agam ort, Max: an bhfuil an leabhar Modern Irish: Grammatical Structure and Dialectal Variation le Mícheál Ó Siadhail agat? Pléann sé na ceisteanna seo ag tosú ar leathanach 271. Deir sé, i measc rudaí eile:

"There seems to be a clear-cut distinction here between Munster and the other dialects. While the proleptic pronoun is the norm elsewhere, this is not so in Munster: Caithfidh go bhfuil an fear ann. [...] Where verbs and verbal phrases expressing intention are concerned prolepsis varies from expression to expression even within a dialect and is difficult to predict."

Tá i bhfad níos mó an an méid seo le rá aige. An dtig leat an leabhar seo a fháil go réasúnta éasca? Dála an scéil, seo againn ceann eile! Deirtear tig liom nó thig liom, ní tig sé liom. Is ionann "t(h)ig" agus "tagann" sa chás seo.

Coincidentally enough, i just received it from amazon.

Iontach maith, tá mé cinnte go mbainfidh tú sult mór aisti. Tá sí agam. Ach is dóigh liom go bhfuil sí giota beag generativist. Ach tá sí sothuigthe ina dhiaidh sin (tuigim í ;-) ).

quote:

Coincidentally enough, i just received it from amazon.

Ar ámharaí an tsaoil (as luck would have it)! Ar chóir dúinn fanacht go mbeidh an méid sin léite agus díleáite agat?

Tá mé dhá léamh, ach níl mé cinnte go bhfuil sí indíleáite...

quote:

níl mé cinnte go bhfuil sí indíleáite

Conas sin? An bhfuil an iomarca Gaeilge ann? ;-) Nó an bhfuil an locht ar theangeolaíocht an údair? Níl an leabhar sin agam, dála an scéil, ach tá sé sa leabharlann anseo.

>>An bhfuil an iomarca Gaeilge ann?

Níl.

>>Nó an bhfuil an locht ar theangeolaíocht an údair?

It is true that Ó Siadhail dallies with generativism, which is not the theory I myself endorse.

I haven't read the part on syntax yet, but I've read the part on morphology... I just don't think this part is particularly well drawn. It's a bit fuzzy...therefore hard to "díleáigh"...

Apart from that, and though it has no real consequence on the inferences one can draw from the information that is given, I don't understand this "quest" of the so-called "underlying forms". The concept of "underlying forms" mixes up synchronics and diachronics. To me, it is a "locht ar theangeolaíocht" of great import.

quote:

generativism, which is not the theory I myself endorse

Scoil Chomsky, an ea? Bhí an-ráchairt ar na generativists anseo fiche bliain - nó níos mó - ó shin más buan mo chuimhne. Céard a tharla don teoiric sin? Agus do na daoine sin? An ndeachaidh an scoil sin sa bhruscair go huile is go hiomlán? Nó an raibh an teoiric sin tábhachtach mar dhúshraith? An bhfuil sibh ag tógáil uirithi anois?

>>Scoil Chomsky, an ea?

'Sea.

In America and Asia, generativism is practically unchallenged. In Europe, we still compete it with fonctionalism.