Dia daoibh arís, a chairde

I would be very grateful if you could cast your generous eyes over the following 12 sentences. By way of revision, I want to make sure that I've fully grasped what you've kindly told me so far. I'd like you to be extremely critical of any and all mistakes please.

1. Rinne mé iarracht - I tried, I made an attempt

2. an abairt seo a scríobh as Gaeilge - to write this sentence in Irish

3. Tá iarracht déanta agam - I have tried, I have made an attempt - Rather than simply use the past tense, I want to say that I "have done" something.

4. Tá meancóga go leor déanta agam - I have made many mistakes

5. Chaill mé an bus deireanach agus mar sin d'fhan mé ag teach mo charad - Missed the last bus so I stayed at my friend's house - Is carad correct here, and is mar sin in the correct position in this sentence??

6. Bhí orm siúl - I had to walk - Implying compulsion, that I had no other option.

7. Bhí orm carr nua a fháil - I had to get a new car - Again, implying that I had no choice in the matter

8. Cheannaigh mé ceann mór ina áit - I bought a large one instead

9. Ná tóg orm na hearráidí seo, le do thoil - Please forgive these errors

10. An bhfuil na habairtí seo ceart de réir gramadaí? - Are these sentences grammatically correct?

11. An thusa duine céanna a chonaic mé an tseachtain seo caite? - Are you the same person who I saw last week? - Are the adjectives céanna and ionann interchangeable?

and finally for today...

12. I think I understand that níos sine means older, but if I want to say "a little older" can I say "cuid níos sine"

Thank you all very much indeed.

Christine.

quote:

Are the adjectives céanna and ionann interchangeable?

I don't think so. ionann is more technical in meaning, and implies (perhaps requires?) two distinct items.

12 - I'd say "beagán níos sine" rather than cuid.

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ionann [aidiacht]
(leis an gcopail) ar aon dul le, díreach cosúil le (is ionann an dá cheann).

céanna [aidiacht den tríú díochlaonadh]
mar a chéile, díreach mar, gan athrú (an áit chéanna; is iad na daoine céanna iad

5. Yes and Yes. carad is the genitive, so you're correct to use it in this case and "agus mar sin" is in the right place.

6 & 7. Yes, you can express a need by using "Tá (bhí etc) ar"

12. I agree with Aonghus. "Tá sé beagán níos sine ná í" = He's a little older than her.

quote:

Are the adjectives céanna and ionann interchangeable?

As Aonghus said, they're not. In fact, they fill very different grammatical slots. "Céanna" is normally only an attributive adjective (one that directly follows its noun and is in a sense "attached to it"): an fear mór, an fear céanna.

"Ionann" is normally only a predicate adjective (one that is linked to its noun by a form of "to be", such as "tá sé mór", "is mór an duine é"). The syntax of "ionann" is even more restricted, however, since it can be linked only by the copula: is ionann iad, ní hionann púdar bácála agus sóid. That is, you can say tá siad mór but you wouldn't say *tá siad ionann.

(Message edited by dennis on December 06, 2005)

Maith an miniú, Dennis!

A Chrístíona, an bhfuil Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla Uí Dhónaill agat?

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It's a bit on the expensive side, but Ó Dónaill's FGB has some very good grammatical information within its covers...

Go raibh míle maith agaibh, a Aonghuis agus a Dennis.

Am I safe to assume, then, that the other sentences are correct? Más fíor sin, tiocfaidh mé ar ais go luath le ceist eile.

A Larry, a chara,

Tá brón orm ach níl an foclóir sin agamsa, cé go bhfuil Oxford Irish Minidictionary agus Collins Gem Irish Dictionary agam.

Christine.

Fan, tá cupla meancóg eile ann nár cheartaigh Aonghas ná Dennis, dar liom. Níl an t-am agam anocht ach ceartóchaidh mé amárach iad.

Maith go leor, a Lughaidh. Fanfaidh mé go dtí sin, a chara.

Christine.

Níor thug mé súil ar na habairtí eile, actually. Feicim cúpla mionrud in abairt #11:

11. An thusa duine céanna... > An tusa an duine céanna...

4. Tá meancóga go leor déanta agam.

Déarfainn "go leor meancóga", ach tá mé réasúnta cinnte go bhfuil ceachtar acu ceart.

Ach fan le Lughaidh. Is eisean "man na meancóg". ;-)

1. Rinne mé iarracht - I tried, I made an attempt

Or: thug mé iarracht.

2. an abairt seo a scríobh as Gaeilge - to write this sentence in Irish

or: ...i nGaeilge

>3. Tá iarracht déanta agam - I have tried, I have made an attempt - Rather than simply use the past tense, I want to say that I "have done" something.

Ok.

4. Tá meancóga go leor déanta agam - I have made many mistakes

Mar Dhennis, deirfinn "tá go leor meancóg déanta agam". Le fírinne, ciallaíonn sé "enough mistakes" de rogha ar "many mistakes" agam (but I know some people use "go leor" with the meaning "many"). Más mian leat nach mbeadh ach ciall amháin le d’abairt, scríobh "tá tréan/cuid mhór/mórán/lear mór, meancóg déanta agam"

>5. Chaill mé an bus deireanach agus mar sin d'fhan mé ag teach mo charad - Missed the last bus so I stayed at my friend's house - Is carad correct here, and is mar sin in the correct position in this sentence??

Carad is correct but maybe a bit archaic. In the Standard, they use "cara" (declension: ns cara, gs cara, np cairde, gp cairde). And I would say "i dteach mo chara(d)".

6. Bhí orm siúl - I had to walk - Implying compulsion, that I had no other option.

Or: b’éigean domh siúl (=I was forced to walk)

7. Bhí orm carr nua a fháil - I had to get a new car - Again, implying that I had no choice in the matter

Fáil can mean "to find" as well. You can say "Bhí orm carr nua/úr a cheannach(t)" (I had to buy a new car). If you use "fáil", we don’t know whether you’ve found it, stolen it, bought it, borrowed it, etc.

8. Cheannaigh mé ceann mór ina áit - I bought a large one instead

Ok.

9. Ná tóg orm na hearráidí seo, le do thoil - Please forgive these errors

Ok.

10. An bhfuil na habairtí seo ceart de réir gramadaí? - Are these sentences grammatically correct?

I’d say "de réir na gramadaí" or "ó thaobh na gramadaí de".

11. An thusa duine céanna a chonaic mé an tseachtain seo caite? - Are you the same person who I saw last week? - Are the adjectives céanna and ionann interchangeable?

The other people have already explained that. The use of "céanna" there sounds odd to me. I would say "an tusa an duine a chonaic mé an tseachtain seo caite?". No need for "céanna", I think (maybe it's an anglicism).

12. I think I understand that níos sine means older, but if I want to say "a little older" can I say "cuid níos sine"

Cf Larry and Aonghus' answers. You can say as well "giota beag níos sine", "rud beag níos sine" (rud beag and giota beag are synonyms of "beagán").

A Dennis, a chara.

11. Thank you very much for pointing that out. I need to do more work on copula sentences. I think that my biggest mistake there was to omit the definate article. I have trouble sometimes deciding whether a sentence is an identification or a classification one. I was also unsure of the main difference between tusa and thusa but, if I understand it correctly now, I use tusa if it's the subject and directly follows the verb and, in this case, An is a version of the verb/copula Is. If I'm wide of the mark with that, please let me know...

A Lughaidh, a chara

In 6 and 7 I wanted to make sure that the syntax is correct. I take your point about the verb \b[Faigh}. I did think about using the verb ceannaigh in that example but decided against it for exactly the reason you've given. I wanted to say that it doesn't matter how I acquire a thing - beg, borrow or steal in a sense - just as long as I get it because it's essential. I'm not suggesting for one minute that I'd go to such extremes but I wanted to understand the concept of must do something so I'll try to remember the construction b’éigean domh siúl (=I was forced to walk) as an alternative.

11. I wanted to express an element of surprise by asking, "Are you the same person who..." in the sense that they look different. My dictionaries were giving me ionann and céanna but it wasn't very clear to me what the difference was. I take your point however that the word is perhaps superfluous.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh arís, a chairde. Tá súil agam go bhfuil mo chuid Gaeilge i bhfad níos fearr go luath.

Christine.

Number 5

Whereas in English, you commonly hear: "I stayed at his house" and "I stayed in his house"; in Irish, "at" and "in" are more black and white than that.

For instance, when you said "d'fhan mé ag teach mo charad", I got a mental image of you siting on the doorstep (ie. at but not in the house), so I'd say "i" would be preferrable here.

You've a few choices, depending on what dative case you choose for "teach", and what genitive case you choose for "cara":

A) i dtigh mo charad
B) i dteach mo charad
C) i dtigh mo chara
D) i dteach mo chara

I myself would choose A... but then again I mostly show off with flowerly language when I'm writing essays, etc.

Number 8

I'd say: "ina ionad" rather than "ina áit"... it's more specific, although "áit" is perfectly acceptable.

Number 9

You're asking the person not to blame you, rather than to forgive you:

Forgive me for the errors.
Maith dom as na hearráidí.

--

As regards "tusa" -Vs- "thusa":

"tusa" is the nominative case, or the subject of the sentence. Chonaic tusa an cat.

"thusa" is the accusative case, or the object of the sentence. Chonaic Seán thusa.

But "tusa" can also be used in the accusative:

Chonaic Seán tusa. (This is correct)

But not the other way around:

Chonaic thusa Seán. (This is wrong)

Note also, that unlike a normal verb, "Is" uses the accusative case:

Is eisean an ceannaire.
Is cailín í.
Is iad na fir.

As regards:

An thusa an duine céanna...
-Vs-
An tusa an duine céanna...

you would be correct in thinking that, as this is the accusative case which is being used, you should have be able to say "An thusa"... well strictly speaking you probably can... but I think it's simply convention to not use "thusa" directly after "An" -- I myself would use "tusa" as it's easier to emphasize than "thusa", ie. it isn't mutated.

A Crístíona, a chara,

11). - In a classification sentence we're classifying, or categorising, something. We're stating, or asking, what something actually is.
Is fear é - he's a man, not a tree or a table, so he belongs in that category of humans called "man".
An fear é? - Is he a man? We're asking if he's a man just like any other man but we're not asking if he's THE man. The predicate has to be indefinate.

In an identification sentence we're stating that, or asking if, two things are identical and the predicate has to be definate.
Is tusa an duine - You are the man - We're stating the fact that tusa and an duine are identical
An tusa an duine? - Are you the man? - We're asking if "you" and "the man" are identical

By the way, if you have any trouble remembering whether the predicate should be definate or indefinate in a classification sentence, I taught myself this little reminder when I was in(definate) class(ification) at college ;-)

(Message edited by Larry on December 07, 2005)

One more thing before I go...

quote:

Tá súil agam go bhfuil mo chuid Gaeilge i bhfad níos fearr go luath.

You can't use "go luath" with the present tense, dependant "bhfuil"- Tá súil agam go mbeidh mo chuid Gaeilge i bhfad níos fearr go luath - I hope that my Irish will be much better soon

You've a few choices, depending on what dative case you choose for "teach", and what genitive case you choose for "cara":

A) i dtigh mo charad
B) i dteach mo charad
C) i dtigh mo chara
D) i dteach mo chara

Donegal Irish: toigh mo charad /ti mo xarəd/ without "i" and urú. Used for place and motion:
Bhí mé toigh mo charad.
Chua’ mé toigh mo charad.

A FnB, a chara

quote:

I got a mental image of you siting on the doorstep...

That made me giggle a bit because you made me realise what I'd actually written. Thank you for that. I've taken note of the rest of your reply too.

A Larry, a chara

Arís, go raibh míle maith agat. Your explanation of the difference between classification and identification has helped me a lot and I like that little helper "in...class". Déanfaidh mé iarracht cuimhneamh ar sin as seo amach.

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A chairde,
I am very grateful to all of you for your patience and understanding. I keep a copy of all your replies and I frequently refer back to them. They explain things in a way which no text book can compete with. That's the beauty of this site!
I have one more question, if I can impose on your generosity. I have used the word "comhra" before to describe a "thread" like this one. An bhfuil an focal seo ceart?

Christine.

Tá gach uile sheans go bhfuil an freagra ag Aonghus ach is fearr liomsa féin "snaithe" a úsáid.

A Aonghuis, a chara....?

Is fearr liomsa comhrá, cé go bhfuil snáth/snáithe ceart.

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snáth [ainmfhocal firinscneach den tríú díochlaonadh]
ábhar fuála nó cniotála nó fíodóireachta déanta ina shnáitheanna as olann nó as cadás agus araile; fíochán, líon (snáth damháin alla).

snáithe [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
tointe singil snátha; aon ní cosúil le snáithe (snáithe scéil, snáithe mo shaoil); na hiomairí nó na claiseanna ar scriú; gráinne in adhmad; fíochán i móin.

comhrá [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
daoine ag caint le chéile, comhchaint.

http://www.acmhainn.ie/focloirriomh/ga-en/s.htm

I think most people use "snáithe".

If I'm not mistaken, "snáth" refers to a single thread (eg. a loose thread on your jumper), while "snáithe" referes to thread in general, like a ball of thread... which is sort of the idea that's trying to be conveyed.

An snáithe
Ag tús an tsnáithe

"Téad" an focal a úsáidim féin. Fuair mé ó dhaoine eile ar an líon é na blianta ó shin. Níl mé cinnte cé chomh coitianta agus atá sé, ach is maith liom a ghontacht.

oops.... I missed the fada - snáithe

quote:

As regards "tusa" -Vs- "thusa":
"tusa" is the nominative case, or the subject of the sentence. Chonaic tusa an cat.
"thusa" is the accusative case, or the object of the sentence. Chonaic Seán thusa.
Chonaic Seán tusa.

I'll add:
Chonaic mise agus thusa Seán.

As you can notice, the examples show very cleary that the forms "tusa" and "thusa" refer neither to the nominative nor the accusative.

By the way:

quote:

Note also, that unlike a normal verb, "Is" uses the accusative case:
Is eisean an ceannaire.

But in this sentence, "an ceannaire" is the predicate, and "eisean" is the subject.
Therefore you cannot say that "eisean"=accusative=object.

At some point, you have to use Ockham's razor in order not to overcomplexify the grammatical analysis...

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quote:

Bhí orm siúl - I had to walk

1/ Is there any possibility to get rid of the verbal noum in such a structure, or is it indispensable? ("bhí orm siúl" > "bhí orm" ?)
2/ In the case of an indirect object, does it come after the verbal noun? ("éist le" > "bhí orm éisteacht leo" ?)
3/ Instead of a verbal noun, could we have a noun? ("tromaíocht" > "bhí orm tromaíocht" > "bhí orm tromaíocht orthu" ?)

About thusa/tusa: You have to use tusa as a subject of a verb that directly follows that verb (except the copula). In other cases, you can use both thusa or tusa, but most of the time it's thusa.

About eisean: As a subject of a verb other than "is", you have to use seisean. In all other cases (I think), you have to use eisean. "Is" is a special verb (my old teacher called it "a verbal", not a verb, for "is" is very special).

1. I don’t think you can say "bhí orm", even in answers (-An rabh ort imeacht? - Bhí).

2. Yes, bhí orm éisteacht leo. Only the subjects and direct objects are put before the verbal noun. All other complements have to be after it.

3. Bhí orm caint... bhí orm caint leo... But these are verbal nouns as well. What's the difference between verbal noun and noun, for you?

About thusa/tusa: You have to use tusa as a subject of a verb that directly follows that verb (except the copula). In other cases, you can use both thusa or tusa, but most of the time it's thusa.

Indeed, I think there nothing more to say about it...

"Is" is a special verb

"Is" is not a verb AT ALL. It is a copula. (Whereas the verb, because it is its function, is always the head of the clause, the copula is never.)

What's the difference between verbal noun and noun, for you?

A verbal noun is a complex unit (French: "parasynthème") which is neither a verb nor a noun because it shares some caracteristics of verbs and some caracteristics nouns. (e.i.: it can have a direct object (verbal caracteristic) and it can be followed by a name in the genitive (nominal caracteristic))

I know "tromaíocht" is a noun, this is why I tried to construct a sentence with it. But we could try "súil": "bhí orm súil" (I had to hope). As for "caint" being always strictly a noun, that is moot...

A verbal noun is a complex unit (French: "parasynthème") which is neither a verb nor a noun because it shares some caracteristics of verbs and some caracteristics nouns. (e.i.: it can have a direct object (verbal caracteristic)

I see your point. You want to find a noun that could have a direct object in a structure like "is mian liom NOUN + a + (VERBAL) NOUN. I hope we'll manage to find one!
I've still much to learn about fonctionnalisme... ;-) Have you learnt all that theory in books or in university lectures?

But we could try "súil": "bhí orm súil" (I had to hope). As for "caint" being always strictly a noun, that is moot...

I don't think we'll manage to do something with súil. It is used with "le" (bheith ag súil le rud éigin) and I wouldn’t use it at all without the verb "to be" before it: bheith ag súil. Bhí orm súil sounds odd to me, but maybe I’m mistaken. And I’ve never heard "ag súil" without a complement with "le" after it.

>>Have you learnt all that theory in books or in university lectures?

Both, but I really started to understand when I started to analyze things myself.

>>You want to find a noun that could have a direct object in a structure like "is mian liom NOUN + a + (VERBAL) NOUN.

No exactly.
I'm just trying to know whethet it it possible to have a noun in such a structure.
Back to "súil": could we have "bhí orm súil le..." ?

Ó Dónaill’s dictionary only gives "súil" (meaning hope) in examples with "ag" before it. That is to say, that you can’t use it without "ag", and then you have to have the verb "bheith" before it most of the time. I don’t think you can say "bhí orm súil le..." but only "bhí orm bheith ag súil le...".

Go raibh maith agaibh arís, a chairde.

Bá mhaith liom bhur meas a fháil ar na habairtí seo, le bhur dtoil. An bhfuil siad ceart?

1. Bheadh do theachtaireacht freagartha agam níos luaithe - I would have answered your message earlier

2. ach anois tá sí leíte agam go díreach - but I have only just read it

Christine.

2. ach is anois díreach a léigh mé í
a bheadh agamsa.

I'm sure that (anois díreach) is a unit.

I'd say "tá mé go díreach i ndiaidh í a léamh / i ndiaidh a léamh".

Go raibh maith agaibh, a chairde.

I'll try to understand the syntax of those.

Christine.

A Lughaidh, a chara

Tá faitíos orm nach dtuigim ar fad thú. Cá bhfuil an "í" (it) sa dara cuid den abairt, tar éis an "/"?

Christine.

It's a more literary sentence. There's no "í".

í a léamh (the a is a kind preposition) = a léamh (the a is the feminine possessive)

i ndiaidh í a léamh "after her to read"
= i ndiaidh a léamh "after her reading"

Is it clearer?

So if it were masculine, would you have a séimhiú, ie:

Chonaic mé an fear i ndiaidh a mharú.
I saw the man after killing him.

Chonaic mé an bhean i ndiaidh a marú.

That right?

Does this explicitly imply that it was the speaker who performed the action?

I've also seen the following syntax:

He went home after Seán came.
Chuaigh sé abhaile i ndiaidh teacht do Sheán.

Similarly could you say:

Chuaigh sé abhaile i ndiaidh teacht dó.

So if it were masculine, would you have a séimhiú, ie:

Chonaic mé an fear i ndiaidh a mharú.
I saw the man after killing him.

Chonaic mé an bhean i ndiaidh a marú.

That right?

Absolutely.

Does this explicitly imply that it was the speaker who performed the action?

There is no difference in meaning between "i ndiaidh í a mharú" and "i ndiaidh a marú".

I've also seen the following syntax:

He went home after Seán came.
Chuaigh sé abhaile i ndiaidh teacht do Sheán.

Similarly could you say:

Chuaigh sé abhaile i ndiaidh teacht dó.

Mmmm... normally, you use "i ndiaidh do + Subject + verbal noun.
So:

Chuaigh sé abhaile i ndiaidh do Sheán teacht.

Donegal: Chua’ sé chun an bhaile i ndiaidh do Sheán a theacht. /xuə s´a nə wal´ə i N´e do x´æːn ə har̥t/

Connemara: Chua’ sé abhaile tar éis do Sheán a thíocht. /xuə s´eː əwal´ə tar´ eːs´ do x´ɑːN ə hiːxt/

Munster: Chua’ sé abhaile tar éis do Sheán teacht. /xuə s´eː əval´ə tar´ eːs do x´ɑːn t´axt/

(Please correct me if I'm wrong for Munster & Connemara forms).