For "the scheme for the speaking of the Irish Language", would you say:

1) Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge

-or-

2) Scéim Labhartha na Gaeilge

For "I was talking to my readers about my new book", would you say:

1) Bhí mé ag caint le mo lucht léimh faoi mo leabhar nua

-or-

2) Bhí mé ag caint le mo lucht léite faoi mo leabhar nua

?

(1) sa chéad chás (2) sa dara chás., Mhínigh mé an chéad cás duit cheana, agus mhínigh Dennis an dara cás. (Tá 1 iomlan mícheart sa dara chás).

If I wanted to use Labharta, it would be

Scéim na Gaeilge Labharta cf.

Ionad na Gaeilge Labhartha, UCC

(Message edited by aonghus on December 04, 2005)

I'm sending an e-mail to Lars Braesicke to see what answer he gives. In the meantime, here's an excerpt from his site (note that he says "Lucht Foghlama", and "Lucht Foghlamtha na Gaeilge"):

formation of the genitive of the verbal noun:
the verbal adjective as the genitive form
Although they are nouns, they form their genitive often using the verbal adjective [ 1 ]:

if they appear in "infinitive" use
and especially then when they have a further genitive object or a possessive pronoun as an object.
bualadh (hit): chun a mbuailte = in order to hit her
foghlaim (learn): lucht foghlamtha na Gaeilge = Irish learners (lit." people of the learning of Irish ")
ól (drink): lucht ólta fuisce = whiskes drinkers ("people of the drinking of whiskey ")
to form the participle with the prefix so-, do-, in- (see verbal adjective):
briseadh (break): sobhriste = fragile
the"regular" verbal noun ending in -adh and -ú (as well as: -á, -é, -í, -ó) always have
a genitive in the form of the verbal adjective (in infinitive and substantivised use)
e.g: glanadh - glanta (cleaning - of the cleaning), saothrú - saothraithe (hard work - of the hard work), suí - suite (sitting - of the sitting)
substantivised genitive
genitives, depending on the noun declension, form these (except verbal noun ending in -adh and - long vowel), if they:

appear in "substantivised" or "infinitive"use (if they have no object ).
e.g.: bréith (bear): lá bréithe = birthday ("day of bearing ")
e.g.: ól (drink): lucht óil = drinkers ("people of the drinking "),
e.g.: foghlaim (learn): lucht foghlama = learners ("people of the learning ")
the verbs ending in -áil with a verbal noun ending in -áil use always
a substanivised genitive (-ála) and never the verbal adjective as the genitive, even not in the above mentioned cases.
Just as the many VNs ending in -áint (-ána), -úint (-úna), -cht (-chta)

Dúirt Aonghus:

quote:

agus mhínigh Dennis an dara cás

Ná bac liomsa, ach ionadh liom nach bhfuil an Brógfhear sásta leis an sampla a fuair mé dó ó pheann Shéamuis Uí Ghrianna! I mean, (a) cainteoir ó dhúchas atá i gceist; agus (b) tá sé san uaigh, agus tá a fhios ag an saol mór agus a mháthair go bhfuil togha na Gaeilge san uaigh! ;-)

quote:

I'm sending an e-mail to Lars Braesicke to see what answer he gives.

Is duine ciallmhar é, agus mura bhfuil dul amú orm rachaidh sé caol díreach go Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí. Tá cuid mhaith le rá acu faoin "ainm briatharfha gan chuspóir". Seo sampla amháin ón leabhar sin:

"idir dhá cheann na meá, ach droichead meáite"

Agus seo cúpla téarma ón bhFoclóir Ríomhaireachta, má tá Séamus Ó Grianna rómharbh duit:

read head = cnoga m4 léite
write-read process = próiseas m1 scríofa léite

Fuaireas freagra ó Lars:

Déarfainn "Scéim Labhartha na Gaeilge" mar a dúirt An Roinn Gnóthaí Pobail,
Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta i 2002:
http://www.pobail.ie/ie/EolasfaoinRoinn/TuarascalachaBhliantuil/2002/file,3817,i e.pdf

B'fhéidir déarfainn "lucht léimh" ach is minic a deirtear "lucht léite" agus gan aon
ghinideach eile ann.


Aontaím leis ar an dá acu.

quote:

B'fhéidir déarfainn "lucht léimh"...
Aontaím leis ar an dá acu.
Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

(a) B'fhéidir go ndéarfainn...
(b) Tá ainmfhocal ag teastáil tar éis "dá".

As peann Shéamais Uí Neachtain:

Cad é an difear idir an Cónradh Náisiúin agus na Náisiúin Aontaithe? Tosaíodh an dá acu faoi choimirce na gComhghuaillí ag a raibh bua i gcogadh domhanda.

http://www.scoilgaeilge.org/lasmuigh/caomhach/NA.htm

Maidir le "go, gur, nach, nár, etc." a úsáid tar éis "b'fhéidir"... bhfuel nílim cinnte -- ach má tá Gaeilge cosúil le Béarla i gcaoi ar bith, fágfaidh daoine ar lár é (eg. He said (that) he went home ).

I think all these versions could be defended, but they might mean different things, and have a bit of different emphasis.

1. Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge would suggest to me that the scheme itself is not there to actively promote the speaking of Irish, it's just there to find out how "Labhairt na Gaeilge" is getting along. The word "labhairt" is more attached to the word "Gaeilge" than it is to "Scéim".

2. Scéim Labhartha na Gaeilge would actively tie the "speaking" more closely to the Scheme itself...so it might be closer to meaning this is a Scheme for the active promotion of the speaking of Irish...Scéim Labhartha atá ann...fá choinne na Gaeilge.

3. Scéim na Gaeilge Labhartha just brings more emphasis in my view to the Irish language firstly, and then secondly, in its spoken form.

I'm on a wing and a prayer here...but I can see how each one could be correct in different ways...depending on what we wanted to say or emphasise.


For "I was talking to my readers" I would just say "bhí mé ag caint leis na léitheoirí s'agamsa" or "bhí mé ag caint le mo chuid léitheoirí" or "bhí mé ag caint le lucht léite mo leabhar"....there's something a bit bare to me about "bhí mé ag caint le mo lucht léite" but its just a feeling from someone who uses a lot of Irish...not a native speaker...

Is oth liom a rá go ndearna siad meancóga, Lars agus Séamas araon.

Maidir le "dhá + ainmfhocal":

"These numbers do not stand alone. They are always followed by a noun." (Mícheál Ó Siadhail, Learning Irish 11.3)

quote:

bhfuel nílim cinnte -- ach má tá Gaeilge cosúil le Béarla i gcaoi ar bith, fágfaidh daoine ar lár é (eg. He said (that) he went home )

Caithfidh go bhfuil tú ag magadh! Or should that be "Caithfidh tá tú ag magadh?"

Tá áis nua ann, a FhnB : http://www.aimsigh.com/
Bain triail as "lucht léite". Ansin bain triail as "lucht léimh".

D'úsáid mé Google cheana chun é sin a dhéanamh, agus fuarthas "lucht léite" mórán níos mó ná "lúcht léimh". Ní cóir móran creidiúna a thabhairt do na torthaí a fhaigheann Google.

Ní ar bhonn an téarma go háirithe atá m'argóint, seachas faoin ngramadach atá thaobh thiar de. (Ar bhaineas úsáid cheart as "seachas" anseo?)

B'fhéidir go ndeir daoine "lucht léite" iomlán an ama, ach ní chiallaíonn sé sin go n-úsáidtear an fhoirm seo ar feadh an ama ar fad!

Táim ag iarraidh aimsiú conas mar na téarmaí seo chruthú. Fós, ní thuigim an fáth go ndeir daoine:

lucht léite

mar, nuair a scrúdaítear an ghramadach thaobh thiar de, bhainfaí aisti gur cóir "lucht léimh" a rá -- sin m'argóint!

Dá mbeinn chun Gaeilge a chur ar "I need a new writing motor for my VCR", déarfainn:

inneall scríobh

seachas:

inneall scríofa

agus 'sé an fáth ná gur "scríobh" an tuiseal ginideach de "scríobh" -- seachas "scríofa". Ach -- dá mbeinn chun Gaeilge a chur ar "the schedule for the writing of the report", déarfainn:

Clár áma scríofa na tuarascála

agus 'sé an fáth ná gur "scríofa" an tuiseal ginideach de "scríobh" nuair a leanann ainmfhocal eile é.

Agus bainte as an iomlán sin, ceapaim gur:

Scéim Labhartha na Gaeilge

atá ceart, seachas:

Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge

Agus ceapaim gur:

lucht léimh

is cóir atá ceart, seachas:

lucht léite

Ach glacaim le gur féidir gur téarma speisialta é "lucht léite" (eisceacht, b'fhéidir).

Tá cuspóir intuigthe le "lucht léite" - léann siad rud éigin airithe, leabhair údair ar leith, mar shampla.

lucht léimh - iad siúd a bhíonn ag léamh, is cuma céard a léann siad.

Something just occurred to me which would explain why you hear and see "lucht léite" far more often than "lucht léimh".

When does one ever speak of simply "a reading group"... much more commonly, one speaks of an author's readers, or readers of a certain newspaper or magazine:

Lucht léite Harry Potter
Lucht léite dháin Shéamais Uí Néill
Lucht léite Lá

But lets say you simply had a reading group (sort of like a drama group), I believe you'd refer to them simply as:

an lucht léimh