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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (November-December) » Archive through December 09, 2005 » Origin of strong plurals « Previous Next »

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 09:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Since there are words from english like siopa from 'shoppe', which then need strong plurals, does anyone know it the use of loan words with particualar ethymologies was, in part, responsible for strong plural spread.

I'm not saying it is the cuase as there are lots of other chanegs that occured to enabel the development, but I'd thought I'd ask

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 848
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 09:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Strong Plural -Vs- Weak Plural is everything to do with the declension of the noun.

"siopa" ends in a vowel, just like "bata", so you have:

an siopa
an bata
X an tsiopa
X an bhata
na siopaí
na bataí
X na siopaí
X na mbataí

Plenty of "Born and bred Irish words" that have strong plurals:

an doras
na daoirse
X na ndaoirse

an múinteoir
na múinteoirí
X na múinteoirí


Anyway I wouldn't call "siopa" a loan word... loan words, in my opinion, are just carbon copies of words from other languages, eg. the French for "weekend" is something like "la weekend".

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 09:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I get your point, but I meant in the context of strong plurals possibly originating a few centuries ago when shoppe, like /siop@/ came in.

"Strong Plural -Vs- Weak Plural is everything to do with the declension of the noun."

I'm not sure how to analyse that. Do you mean that they are generated by declensions? Declensions are only a body of similarly inflected noun, adjectives or whatever, i.e. they are group titles.

Also, the ide of 5 declensions in Irish is wrong. The standard ahs about 6, plus strong plurals as a 7th if you reanalyse them. The dialects must vary, and they will change in number over time, perhaps even disappearing. If you chnage your definition, you will change the numeber of declensions possible.

I am also aware that developments can happen within the language itslef, as the pattern of polarising final consonants to produce gentive inflections could not occur in the same way as the words changed forms over the centuries and new ways had to found to do the job

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 850
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 09:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Basically, if I've never heard (or seen) a particular word before, I'll still be able to work with it. Its sound (and spelling) give a strong indication as to how one should conjugate it.

I myself don't like the idea of lumping nouns into "declensions", I prefer the idea of just working with how words with a certain ending (like "acht") are worked with in a certain way.

There are loads of ways to work with nouns... I used to have a full list of all the endings and all, I've probably posted it on this forum before. I've got them all memorised now though (not consciously, so I can't rhyme them off for you, but if you show me a word (be it a noun, adjective or verb), I'll be able to work with it.

Anyway, to the point... there's a good few "groups" of nouns that get a strong plural -- I'll plunge into my memory and dig out a few:

X na mainistreacha
X na ndoctúirí
X na scéalta
X na ndornálaíthe
X na slite

My verdict is that "strong plurals" are very much a part of the Irish language, and aren't the result of hybridization with foreign languages...

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 10:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"My verdict is that "strong plurals" are very much a part of the Irish language, and aren't the result of hybridization with foreign languages..."

Did not say they were, but I mean if they were like a 2% contibuter or something.

Maybe some of them got added to the numebr of those with strong plurals, but other have weak ones too, so little to report then

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 10:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Did not say they were"

I did not say they were not, rather

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 852
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I've never seen one example of a noun getting strong plural simply because it came from a different language. It's always because of its sound (or spelling).

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1059
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 05:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

an doras
na daoirse
X na ndaoirse


It is "na doirse, X na ndoirse".

Anyway I wouldn't call "siopa" a loan word...

It is, since it isn't a Gaelic word...


loan words, in my opinion, are just carbon copies of words from other languages,

You're talking about recent loanwords. But there are older ones, that have involved and whose sounds have been changed by the mouths of the Irish speakers.

eg. the French for "weekend" is something like "la weekend".

Le weekend (masculine noun). The pronounciation has been slightly changed by French mouths: the "ee" is short (no distinctive long vowels in French), and the k and the d are pronounced in the French way.
It's called an "integrated loanword" (it has a French gender, a French plural and a "Frenchized" pronounciation).

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 230
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

riding coat > (la) redingote (borrowed in the end of 17th or beginning of 18th century; now pronounced as spelling shows)

weekend > (le) week-end (borrowed in the beginning of the 20th century; pronounced as [wikènd] or even [wikèn])

(also I come from a region where there are distinctive short and long vowels, I still prononce week-end with 2 short vowels)

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Dearg
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Username: Dearg

Post Number: 94
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 02:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

> It's called an "integrated loanword" (it has a French gender, a French plural and a "Frenchized" pronounciation).

How, in French or Irish or any language with gendered nouns, do loan words gain their male-ness or female-ness? Is it based on spelling (i.e., how it fits into a declension) or ...?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1090
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 02:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It depends... actually I don't know. And sometimes it can change according to the place. In Quebec, some English loanwords don't have the same gender as in France:

for example: job > Québec: la job, France: le job

I really don't know where does these genders come from, and I'm afraid no one knows, because people borrow these words without thinking about the gender, they give them a gender according to the sound, maybe, or to obscure reasons!

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Max
Member
Username: Max

Post Number: 235
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 05:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>How, in French or Irish or any language with gendered nouns, do loan words gain their male-ness or female-ness? Is it based on spelling (i.e., how it fits into a declension) or ...?

I don't have a clue, but I suppose one could find research about it.


>>And sometimes it can change according to the place.

Yep: where I come from, "air" is feminine. Very often, I would only say "l'air", so you couldn't see the gender distinction... but if I have to use this word in a structure where gender is apparent, although I live in Paris and I know "air" is masculine in standard French and I've heard standard French since I was born, I still quite often make it feminine (unless I actually "think" of making it masculine): "toute l'air" (and not "tout l'air").

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 862
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 08:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well if you consider Irish, I'm aware of three things which determine a noun's gender.

1) Its end sound or its end spelling

eolaíocht .. eolaíochta .. eolaíochtaí .. eolaíochtaí
mainistir .. mainistreach .. mainistreacha .. mainistreacha

2) If it's a part of the body.

Take "srón" for example. I'd expect that to be like follows:

srón .. sróin .. sróin .. srón

but in actual facts it's:

srón .. sróine .. sróna .. srón

Similarly you have:

cluas .. cluaise .. cluasa .. cluas
lámh .. láimhe .. lámha .. lámh


3) I once heard something about most things to do with nature being feminine... never saw it applied though.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin



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