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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (November-December) » Archive through December 23, 2005 » On speaking Irish to the Irish … « Previous Next »

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Aindréas
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Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 02:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Do Irish speakers generally abhor it when an outsider comes to a Gaeltacht merely for the purpose of getting first hand experience with the language? I could hardly blame them, and obviously it's a very different case than, say, travelling to South America to speak Spanish.

I may be making false assumptions, but I would feel rude going to this place where everyone is bilingual, but asking them to speak another language so I can practice. And if that is the case, it seems like it would rather difficult for outsiders to learn Irish, doesn't it?

I hope my questions don't sound make me sound stuck up and igorant. Please excuse any political incorrectness … I am curious, though. Thanks for your time.

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 837
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 05:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"I may be making false assumptions, but I would feel rude going to this place where everyone is bilingual, but asking them to speak another language so I can practice. And if that is the case, it seems like it would rather difficult for outsiders to learn Irish, doesn't it? "

Hm, no need to worry. 95% of the tourists to the Gaeltacht area don't speak Irish and it's they who are rude, requiring the people to speak English with them.

I have often heard complaints in Ireland, Wales, Spain, France, Scandinavia and the Balkans about people from English-speaking countries being very arrogant, since they don't bother to learn any other language than their own and require other people to speak to them in English. If the locals don't speak English, they always face the risk of being insulted by the visitors in their country... I've never heard than anyone anywhere has taken insult because you learn their language, quite the opposite.

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Lucy (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 10:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What a novel idea, Jonas. That every tourist is required to have full knowledge of the language before visiting another country or else he is considered to be rude. Oh, excuse me - I see now that this applies only to English speakers. From now on, when I visit Ireland I shall only speak Irish even though the majority of the people won't understand me.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 838
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 11:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thank you for that very nice comment, Lucy. What a mistake I made. Of course it's not rude for English-speakers not to speak English. It's only rude when the others don't speak English. I guess that's why we see English people going around Europe insulting locals for not being able to speak English. Alternatively, we see them insulting tourists in England/Ireland for not being able to speak English when they visit as tourists. Of course, that is not rude at all.

(Message edited by Jonas on November 27, 2005)

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 658
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 11:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I've been amused hearing Europeans who are not native-English-speakers speak English in preference to their own language. Let me give two examples to clairify what I'm talking about.

1) Standing in line to buy tickets for a concert in Paris, I heard the couple in front of me conversing in something Nordic. When they reached the box office, one of them asked for tickets in perfectly good French. The French guy at the counter, without missing a beat, replied to them in English. It was my turn next, and I told him what I wanted in French. Amazingly, he replied to me in French. But since I was conversing with my companion in English, I figure he must have noticed that and decided that replying in English to an English-speaker was not PC! ;-)

2) At a hotel just outside Siena (Villa Scacciapensiere - an-deas gan a bheith an-daor!) I heard a German-speaker trying to express himself in Italian to the desk clerk. She simply said, "Let's try English."

Oh, and I remember the time I was chatting with two French-Canadian ladies. When it became clear to them after a bit that the friend I was with didn't speak French, they switched to English and chided me for being rude to my friend!

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 839
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 11:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"I heard the couple in front of me conversing in something Nordic"

Something Nordic? Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Sami and Faeroese? In my ears they sound as different as English and Hindi :-)

I've also experienced what you describe in various countries. In many cases, the reaction is based upon wanting to show that one can speak English. Generally speaking, the better you speak English the more likely people are to answer in English. France, of course, being an exception :-)

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 660
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

wanting to show that one can speak English

Is cuimhin liom an t-am a bhí mé ag comhrá/comhrac le bean sa siopa leabhar sa Louvre, mise ag labhairt Fraincise agus ise ag labhairt Béarla, agus gan ceachtar againn sásta géilleadh! (I might add that that is a terrible way to do language! Instead of a native speaker providing the firm ground and giving the cues for the second-language speaker to follow, there we were both tripping each other up!)

(Message edited by dennis on November 27, 2005)

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 840
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is ait é sin, an bhfuil a fhios agat cad 'na thaobh ná raibh sí sásta a teanga féin a labhairt? Tharlaigh an rud céadna nuair a bhios i siopa éigint i Split. Thána isteach agus ní labhras ach Cróitis. D'fhreagair an gasúr as Béarla agus ní dúirt sé focal dom as a teanga-sa.

Chun na fírinne a rá, nílim níos fearr féin. Is cuimhin liom nuair a labhair cara dom Sualainnis liom agus d'fhreagríos as Béarla...

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1057
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 05:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maidir le scéal Dhennis, is féidir gur labhair a’ bhean sin Béarla leis le mórtas a dhéanamh agus le teisteáint do achan duine go bhfuil Béarla líofa aici...

Maidir le scéal Jonas, tharlaigh ’n rud céarna liom le duine amháin in Éirinn. I hallaí na mac léinn a bhí mé, i gCo. Dhoire, chan i bhfad ó Ollscoil Chúil Raithin, agus b’as Gaeltacht Thír Chonaill don chailín a bhí ’stopadh ins an árasán ar thaobh mo chinnse féin. Agus labharfainn i gcónaí i nGaeilg léithe, agus cé gurb í ’n Ghaeilg a teangaidh dhúchais, d’fhreagróchadh sí i mBéarla i gcónaí mé. Char thuig mé sin ariamh. Ar ndóighe, thuigfeadh sí achan rud dár inseochainn daoithe. Ach i mBéarla a bheadh ’n freagar i dtólamh.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aindréas
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Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 08:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Okay, my Irish is zero, so if any of your posts were in answer to mine, could you restate in English please? :-| Sorry!

Jonas, I understand what you mean. I've only been overseas as a tourist at two different locations, Austria and Ukraine. I made it a point to study Russian and at least learn survival German. I was at a café with two other gentlemen in Austria (where everyone seems to speak English), and one of my party needed napkins, but the waiter didn't understand the word. He came back to our table wondering why in the world the man did not know the word for napkin. I got up and asked the waiter in German, and I recall him being extremely, extremely flattered that I made the attempt to speak in his language to him.

I also witnessed on more than one occasion people being really rude about and arrogant, expecting others to speak English.

What it seemed like to me, though, is that I would not want Irish speakers to feel like they are being taken advantage of just because of the language they speak. It's seems like you're telling me that's certainly not the case? They feel the same as any other non-English speaking country about tourists etc.?

Lucy, I fail to see where Jonas is suggesting that tourists have a full knowledge of any language of the country they're visiting … what a polite post. ;-)

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

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Dalta (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was in Baile an Fheirtéaraigh recently and the locals never answered anyone in Irish. One of the people I was with asked the man for directions in Irish and she has perfect Irish but he answered her in English. Whenever we asked for drinks in Irish, we were answered in English. We only heard locals speaking to us in Irish when some lads came over to the table and even then, they started it in English and were breá sásta to go back to English.

The only lads who really wanted to speak Irish if you had it were a seanchaí who came to visit us and the bus drivers.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1061
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 03:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was in Baile an Fheirtéaraigh recently and the locals never answered anyone in Irish. One of the people I was with asked the man for directions in Irish and she has perfect Irish but he answered her in English. Whenever we asked for drinks in Irish, we were answered in English. We only heard locals speaking to us in Irish when some lads came over to the table and even then, they started it in English and were breá sásta to go back to English.

What a pity. As i already said before, I have never seen that in Donegal. I spoke to people in Irish and i was always answered in Irish, never in English.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 841
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 03:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"What a pity. As i already said before, I have never seen that in Donegal. I spoke to people in Irish and i was always answered in Irish, never in English."

A pity, and very surprising. I've been in An Buailtín (aka Baile an Fheirtéaraigh) many times, sometimes for longer periods. If I'd pick one Gaeltacht-village as "my" village, I'd pick it. I've always been speaking only Irish in An Buailtín and people have always spoken it to me.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1065
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 03:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maybe it depends on the accent. Dalta, do you speak local Irish to the people, or kinda Standard Irish. Maybe they don’t want to answer in Irish to someone who doesn’t speak like them. I guess Jonas spoke Munster Irish to them, and I did always speak Donegal Irish in Donegal (anyway I can’t speak another dialect, I can write a bit in other dialects though).

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 842
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 03:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Maybe they don’t want to answer in Irish to someone who doesn’t speak like them. I guess Jonas spoke Munster Irish to them, and I did always speak Donegal Irish in Donegal"

That might well be it. In Corca Dhuibhne and Múscraí, people always speak Irish to me, and of course I speak Munster Irish. In Donegal, people almost always spoke to me in English.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 428
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 04:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"One of the people I was with asked the man for directions in Irish and she has perfect Irish"

Perfect according to whom? When people like Pádraig Standún and Nollaig Ó Muraíle are asked how their Irish was before they spent a sufficient length of time in the Gaeltacht and acquired it as a real language, they answer: "Well, I thought I knew it pretty well, but..."

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Breacban
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Username: Breacban

Post Number: 153
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 05:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

well ill never forget the first time i started speaking irish to a native speaker in kerry. he roasted the hairs off my head with a stream of fleunt irish talked at lightning speed. I have gone into shops in dunchaoin and have always been awnsered politely in irish. i think there is a bit of the cute kerryman going on here. you should go to beal ata an gaotharaidh in cork if you want to meet the real lovely people!!!!

by the way In donegal espically up the north all the people have lovely irish but if your used to standard irish you will get a shock.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1067
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 06:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

if your used to standard irish you will get a shock.

Anyway, if you are used to standard Irish you'll get a shock in every Gaeltacht :-D

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Asarlaí
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Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 81
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 08:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To find a standard that everyone speaks is the only chance Irish has if it's ever to succeed in my view. As we keep hearing: Gaeltachts are either dying out or their inhabitants would rather speak English anyway.
It's quite pathetic that a few thousand people can't even agree on the pronunciation of the prepositional pronouns etc.. - The whole thing's a mess, - No wonder the school kids can't apply themselves to Irish.
As you can see, this mindless smirking about a Standard Irish and its students really fires me up - All you're doing is keeping divisions that weaken the over all goal - Enda and the likes wouldn't have a leg to stand on if the Irish language community all spoke in unity.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1071
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 08:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It doesn't weaken anything, dialectes just what makes the language alive and interesting. Do the English dialects weaken the language????

If you don't like variety, just let's all speak English and may all other languages die, and then you'll be happy.

Stad do bheith 'caint na seafóide.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Breacban
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Username: Breacban

Post Number: 154
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 09:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

there are only three dialects really left Asarlaí so if you learn a bit of munster irish some connemara irish and some from donegal you will have a good basis to start to learn the language. It wont be long in fact before you can start on scots gallic.

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Asarlaí
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Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 82
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 09:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm not talking rubbish thanks Lughaidh -
Variety in accent, difference in the odd word, turn of phrase is great, but that's not what the problem with the Irish dialects is, is it? The problem is, some of the grammar hasn't even been agreed upon. Speakers from one Gaeltacht not being able to understand speakers from other Gaeltachts, thats the result.

All the successful languages teach their standard language - In England there's Geordie English, Cockney English etc which have spoken and written differences but it would've been ridiculous to try and teach all of these dialects as a model for the English language.
A standard language is as essential to a language as is currency or nuts and bolts.

An caighdeán abú! :)

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 844
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 10:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For some reason, unknown to me, too much is always made of the difference in Irish dialects. In almost any language, there are different dialects that are almost incomprehensible to outsiders. I'm practially bilingual in Swedish myself. The language I speak with my most of my friends and colleagues is the standard language, understood by any person who speaks Swedish. The language I speak with parts of my family, some friends, and people from my home area in general is totally incomprehensible to outsiders. We're not talking about small differences as in the case of Irish dialects, we're talking about totally different forms of the language. My best friend from Croatia can speak Croatian in a way that most Croatians wouldn't even recognise as being Croatian. German is of course famous for its highly divergent dialects. So why make such a fuzz about Irish dialects, because in the end, they aren't that different from each other. I've been speaking Munster Irish in every Gaeltacht and I've managed just fine.

(Message edited by Jonas on November 29, 2005)

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Asarlaí
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Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 83
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 10:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Quote: Breachan - there are only three dialects really left Asarlaí so if you learn a bit of munster irish some connemara irish and some from donegal you will have a good basis to start to learn the language. It wont be long in fact before you can start on scots gallic.


Hi Breachan,
I am attempting to learn bits of every dialect. An enjoyable task that all serious adult learners and Irish kids living outside the Gaeltachts face.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1076
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 11:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Speakers from one Gaeltacht not being able to understand speakers from other Gaeltachts, thats the result.

But they do understand each other! Thanks to Raidió na Gaeltachta, most Gaeltacht speakers have become used to understand the other dialects. That’s just an habit problem. People get used to the other dialects quite easily.

All the successful languages teach their standard language - In England there's Geordie English, Cockney English etc which have spoken and written differences but it would've been ridiculous to try and teach all of these dialects as a model for the English language.
A standard language is as essential to a language as is currency or nuts and bolts.


It is essential for official texts and stuff. Now, there's something I don't understand in what you say: why would people have to choose between the standard or dialects? Why do you want the dialects to disappear?

First: no need to choose: people can speak both the standard and their local dialect, no problem. That happens in most countries. Anyway, speaking the standard is useless if people understand each other when they all speak their dialects. The standard is useful as a written language, maybe, for official stuff (government websites, laws, etc), in order to be "neutral".

Second: if Irish dialects disappear, it means that Irish will disappear as a natural language. The standard isn't a natural language and I don't think a Gaeltacht speaker who would know the standard would choose it to raise up his kids, really. He would choose his natural way to speak (the language he has been raised up with). That happens everywhere, even in France (although French has almost lost its dialects). I haven't learnt to speak universitary French with my parents, but a kinda colloquial French (that I wouldn't speak at a universitary meeting or such official thing). I don't think there are children who are raised up with Official German, and for English, except you are a cousin of the Queen, I don't think you've been raised up with official English (like Queen's English or BBC English).

You don't need to replace the Gaeltacht dialects by Standard Irish. If you do that, you'll kill Irish, because the whole richness of the language is in the Gaeltacht, not in the book "Gramadach na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge: An Caighdeán Oifigiúil".

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 12:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"I don't think there are children who are raised up with Official German, and for English, except you are a cousin of the Queen, I don't think you've been raised up with official English (like Queen's English or BBC English). "

There are people in Ireland who would disagree; however thier official english attemts on a prescriptive model are pants, as theirs posits accent and la-di-da delivery over natural or even standard grammar, clear understanding etc. Listen to some of the arriviste class when they outgrow breakfast rolls, the daily star, and homebase try to shoehorn standard british grammar and a faux british accent over their own brought up delivery. A travesty, i tell you.

Anyway as I've been going black and blue saying for a long time, the standard irish has but 4 components AT MOST! a) grammar, b) spelling c) a lexicon and usually ignored d) 52 phonemes.

THREE/FOUR elements are not enought for a prober natural langauge, EVEN if based as it is on real dialects

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Asarlaí
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Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 85
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 01:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh, I too love the richness and diversity of all the dialects
too and most certainly wouldn't want them to disappear or be killed off. The crux of my point is Irish is more effectively promoted using a 'standard' language. The future of the language is in the hands of the school kids and adult learners so to look upon their standard Irish as inferior is detrimental. Unfortunately, the Gaeltachts won't/can't save the language, it'll take a change of heart from the average English speaking Irishman. Much encouragement is required.

Le meas
Somhairle

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 362
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 02:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Goile, Myself and my Cumann Gaelach *Irish Culture society in college* went to Galway city and Inis Mór Gaeltacht island.. What i learned was rather interesting.

In the Gaeltacht everyone has fabulous Gaeilge with an absolutely beautiful accent but the influence of the up to 2,500 tourists per day is having was unfortunately clear.

On the boat Gaeilge was only spoken by the workers if every word from the other persons mouth was in Irish.
On the tour bus we got there was 5 Gaeilgeoirí and 1 English chap. The driver was brilliant but because one of the 6 of us didn't have any Gaeilge most of the talk was in English. Of course i made sure Gaeilge was alive in that bus!
We went for lunch in "The American Hotel" - how very touristy i know.. Anyways i wanted somewhere that'd deal with us in Irish so asked the girl "Cén chaoi bhfuil tú?" and she answered in Irish. Then when i went to order she said "Sorry, i've no idea what you're saying" and i had to go on in English.
A local men came in for a drink and she greeted them in English but chatted them in fantastic Gaeilge and as Gaeilge they replied.

So maybe the locals are putting their cultural identity on hold for their economy. Good or bad thing?

But Galway city *Ireland's first fair trade and bilingual city* was just amazing. Gaeilge and Gaeilgeoirí EVERYWHERE. When people saw our Fáinní and Grá don Ghaeilge badges they loved throwing in their cúpla focal or more!!

I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that Gaeilge will weaken in the Gaeltachtaí and grow in the cities, near colleges etc - Cad a cheapann sibh?

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river

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Dalta (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 04:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh, i wasn't saying much to them, we were just ordering drinks mainly. 'Pionta Heinenken, le do thoil' and things like that. What I was most dissapointed with was that the groups of lads who were mates were speaking English and the guys I saw on mobiles outside pubs were speaking Irish, same with the smokers outside.

My friend who asked the guy for directions in Irish was raised in the Gaeltacht, the Corca Dhuibhne Gaeltacht nonetheless, so I think it's safe to assume that she had perfect Gaeilge. The barman could see from us since most of us were speaking English, that we were outsiders.

In Daingean, I got two replies in English, one of them had a fairly Dublin-ish accent and the order was definitely a local, who was very busy and didn't really want to be talking to me, but nonetheless answered in perfectly understandable Irish.

The only fella I had a proper conversation with was the bus driver and he understood my standard Grammar perfectly, except one time when I had to say 'Gaolainn' instead of 'Gaeilge', but i said Gaeilge a few times before that and he was grand. He also said that he finds it impossible to talk to Connemara and especially Tír Chonaill people, English or Irish.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 845
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 05:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An Daingean isn't an Irish-speaking city. The real Gaeltacht begins a bit west of the town. There's probably more Irish being spoken in An Daingean today than at any time for the last 100 years or so, but it's still essentially English-speaking.

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Fear_na_gcrúb
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Username: Fear_na_gcrúb

Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sometimes people in the Gaeltacht will speak English to you until they get to know you a bit more, to know your level of Irish in a natural way.

I also found when I brought my weans to the Gaeltacht that people chatted a lot more Irish to us, because they heard me chatting to the weans in Irish, and there's something about having weans in your company which breaks down a lot of the natural awkwardness of meeting adults for the first time.

One night I was in Teach Jack and a group of fellahs my own age were chatting away in Irish. One of them turned to bring me into the conversation as a visitor to the area, and he spoke to me in English. Not wanting to be rude I answered him in English, as I thought he might take offence if he thought I was trying to make a point. He continued in English with me and in Irish with his friends, until I got more into the conversation and started chatting in Irish. "I fuckin' hate that" he said. I think he thought I was trying to be clever, pretending I had no Irish. Because much of the Gaeltacht is now a bilingual environment rather than a purely Irish speaking environment it creates a multitude of awkward situations.

Some native speakers are understandably tired of having their brains picked about the word for this and the word for that etc when they are just out for a couple of quiet pints.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2648
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Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 04:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Focal deas sin, a FnC - "weans".

Fáilte inár measc.
Tá súil agam go bhfuil Bean na gCrúb agus na crúbíní thar barr.

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Fada
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Username: Fada

Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 07:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Everybody,
serious stuff at times
If you're scrolling down reading all of this you are now entitled to a wee break
Things get fairly heavy round (or is that "around") here at times it seems
Join me in 19 seconds of silence and reflection...................................................................... ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ..................................................ahhhhh

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 381
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 05:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Fear na nCrúb,

Tá an ceart ar fad agat.. Sin ar mhór nó ar a laghad a tharla liomsa agus mé i nGaillimh cúpla seachtain ó shin

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 05:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Assuming the normal rules of ettiquete about not bothering people, why would you think anyone would take offense to you trying to learn their language, particularly if you didn't have to? That would be psychotic.

""I have often heard complaints in Ireland, Wales, Spain, France, Scandinavia and the Balkans about people from English-speaking countries being very arrogant, since they don't bother to learn any other language than their own and require other people to speak to them in English.""

That would be a pretty nervy thing for French and Spaniards to complain about, given that they are probably just as bad as people in English speaking countries when it comes to monolingualism. They don't even have the excuse of geographic isolation or the global ubiquity of their own languages that Americans, Australians, Canadians, etc. have.

Tourists from any country can be rude, but polls show that people who deal with them like Americans just fine(maybe because we always tip). The only time I've ever heard Americans make complaints about foreigners not speaking their language, within America, were with regard to business related matters. I did once have a French woman speak some very hard words to me here, once she found out I couldn't speak French (luckily, I couldn't understand anything she was saying.) I agree, though, that, if you're going to live and work in someone's country, it's beyond the pale not to speak their language.

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Fear_na_gcrúb
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Username: Fear_na_gcrúb

Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 03:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

With the influx of so many other languages to Ireland at the moment, I have got a little taste for what it is like for a native speaker of Irish trying to wrestle his way through a conversation with a learner of the language. When I speak to a person from Poland with very little English, for example, there are more silences and desparate searching for something to say that might make sense. This is hard work. And I thought to myself one day...this is why many native speakers of Irish just speak English to learners. It really is the obligation of the learner to get himself or herself up to speed.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 575
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 08:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'd be interested to know if there are any documented successful langauge revivals of the scope needed to save Irish that did not incorporate the creation of a 'standard' dialect. The only two that I can think of off the top of my head - Hebrew and Basque (and Basque is still in progress) did.

Thoughts? Perhaps the linguists out there can think of examples?

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Fear_na_gcrúb
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Username: Fear_na_gcrúb

Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 09:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can't think of any examples...but then that might be because I'm not a linguist. I'd say Irish would have been fairly well standardised in the period 1600 to 1800 if the Gaelic Irish political system had not been completely broken. This wiped out the centralising powerbase and left only the dialects to flourish. By the time that independence was partly achieved in the new state, and by the time they got around to recreating a national standard it was very much a case of a "coalition of the unwilling" to steal a modern phrase.

My view is...respect the native speech and dialects, but the education system needs to promote a standard of sorts. The Official Standard is not actually a whole prescriptive way of speaking and writing every single word in the language. Did you ever see the size of it? It's only a very rough set of national guidelines.

Má tchíonn tú earráid chló/litrithe nó ghramadaí anseo, coinnigh faoi rún í, agus tabhair bualadh bos duit féin :-)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2689
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is maith liom do shiniú, a FnaC!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1166
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 06:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

that did not incorporate the creation of a 'standard' dialect. The only two that I can think of off the top of my head - Hebrew and Basque (and Basque is still in progress) did.

Anyway, Hebrew is special, it wasn't spoken anymore when it was revived, it was just a liturgic language (i think). So, no dialects in liturgic Hebrew at the time they began to revive it. Basque is still much spoken and has dialects.

The problem of such minority language is that many children who go to minority language medium school don't speak the language within their family. Sometimes their grandparents speak the language but the children learn the standard dialect, so the natural language that they could learn with their grandparents gets lost because children think it isn't as good as what they're taught at school. I'm afraid it would be the same with Irish, and it was the same with French: children think that their local dialect isn't good and they forget it, and speak the standard dialect of school (in the case of Irish, I'm afraid some teachers teach bad Irish, so finally the children speak bad Irish although they would have had good Irish if they had not been in such schools).

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 577
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Basque is still much spoken and has dialects."

right, nobody says establishment of a standard for education purposes gets rid of dialects, or that getting rid of dialects is desireable. But from what I've read the Basques have made great strides in propogating the language through the schools in their quasi-autonomous areas, and that step one for them was establishing an academic 'standard' for use in the schools.

as for Hebrew, what you say is true, but there is no greater comeback than to move from extinction to first national language (actually used) in a generation after an absence of numerous centuries.

I see what you're saying about the French example, but French was never in danger of extinction. Irish basically needs to take what it can get and run with it.

But I'm not looking to start a debate like that as they tend to go round and round and not get much of anywhere. I am, however, still interested in knowing if establishment of a 'standard' dialect for schools in situations like what faces Irish is really an essential key to any revival steps. The more I go looking for counterexamples the less I find. It seems that language revival without an academic standard dialect for the school system is doomed from the start.

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 294
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Irish basically needs to take what it can get and run with it"

Absolute truth, Antaine!! Dialects and the preoccupation therewith is such a secondary distraction to actually learning Irish. At this stage of the game, we need every Irish speaker we can get!

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1167
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 07:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I see what you're saying about the French example, but French was never in danger of extinction.

French dialects have almost disappeared now because of school and Standard French-only media. That's what I meant.

Dialects and the preoccupation therewith is such a secondary distraction to actually learning Irish.

I already answered that affirmation long ago: the Irish language is a group of dialects, as every other language. Standard Irish is an (artificial) dialect as well. Kill Gaeltacht Irish, and Irish will disappear. Without the Gaeltacht dialects, the Standard wouldn't have been created.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2693
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 08:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Kill Gaeltacht Irish, and Irish will disappear. Without the Gaeltacht dialects, the Standard wouldn't have been created.



I agree. Also, the standard is directing at writing, not at speech.

Teachers (in Ireland) should be fluent in at least one dialect, and familiar with the other main ones.

There is a need for a special curriculum for the Gaeltacht, taking the local dialect into account. That is being worked on.

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Dalta (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 10:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

All the dialects need to be taught supplementary to the standard. It should be shown that the standard is official-speak and the dialects are what you're going to hear. With emphasis on the local dialect, but definitely teach the other dialects too. To be an Irish teacher, you need to do Irish in college, there's a need to send every student to the Gaeltacht for an extended period of time(this happens in UCC, not sure about other areas) and to teach them every aspect of the other dialects aswell. Otherwise it's not a study of Irish.

A Lughaidh, cad a bhí na canúintí sa Fhrainc agus cá raibh siad? Tá aithne agam ar chailín ó Nantes(do cheantairsa) agus dúirt sí nach bhfuil aon chanúint difriúil sa Fhrainc, níl aon ach blasanna.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1168
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 11:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Anois níl mórán fágtha de na seanchanúintí ach bhí siad beo go dtí tús an 20ú haois, abair (is iad an scoil agus na meáin a mharbh iad). I measc canúintí na Fraincise, gheobhfá Bourguignon, Normand, Berrichon, Bourbonnais, Picard, Poitevin, Tourangeau, Angevin, Vosgien, Lorrain, srl. Bhí siad sin difriúil go leor ón "Fhraincis" ins a’ Mheán-Aois. An té ar mian leis Sean-Fhraincis a dh’fhoghlaim, caithfidh sé téacsannaí ins na canúintí sin a staidéar.

Gheobhaidh tú alt ar Vicipéid fá dtaobh do chanúintí na Fraincise anseo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_France


Ach is fíor é a ráidht nach bhfuil fágtha anois, don chuid is mó, ach blasannaí agus cupla focal nó cor cainte áitiúil. Is féidir go bhfuil na canúintí sin ag seandaoiní fán tuaith anois, ach ní dhéantar staidéar orthu, ní theagasctar iad, ní labhrann duine ar bith
canúint mar sin lena pháistí, agus ní dóigh liom go mbeadh aon duine óg a bheadh ábalta canúint mar sin a labhairt. Agus de réir achan chosúlachta, is cuma le achan duine iad. Mór an truaigh.

"Gallo" ainm na teangtha atá á labhairt i gceantar Nantes. Tá díospóireacht ann fá dtaobh daoithe: an canúint Fhraincise í nó an teangaidh eile í? Ceist chasta. Ní mórán a theagasctar an teangaidh sin (gheobhfá rangannaí oíche agus leabharthaí, ar aon nós), ach is furast cainteoirí dúchais a dh’fháil (seandaoiní iad uilig) in oirthear na Briotáine. Ach is dóigh liom go bhfuil Gallo an lae inniu giota beag difriúil ó Ghallo na haimsire fadó: meascann na cainteoirí Gallo agus Fraincis agus iad a’ labhairt, siocair gur teangthacha cóngaracha dá chéile iad. Fadó is dóigh liom go rabh siad níos difriúla mar nach rabh Fraincis ag lucht labhartha na Gallo.
Ach níl mórán eolais agam ar an teangaidh sin, cibé ar bith. Gheobhaidh tú tilleadh eolais faoithe ar an idirlíon, má tá léamh na Fraincise agat.


(Message edited by lughaidh on December 15, 2005)

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Dalta (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 11:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl ach leath-léamh na Fraincíse agam fós.

Bhí mé ar Vicipéid agus tá méid leagan ann sa teangacha réigiúnacha sin, Walloon agus araile. An bhfuil siad go hiomlán marbh anois, nó an bhfuil sé leath-bheo, b'fhéidir cosúil leis an nGaeilge nó an Bhriotáinis?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1171
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 02:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá ’n Walloon beo ach is sa Bheilg atá sí á labhairt, chan sa Fhrainc. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil Vicipéid ar bith ins na canúintí a luaigh mé. Tá Vicipéid ann ins na teangthacha réigiúnacha ach ní hionann teangaidh réigiúnach agus canúint Fhraincise. Tá na teangthacha réigiúnacha (=difriúil ón Fhraincis agus óna canúintí) níos beotha ná na canúintí sin. Ní deirfinn go bhfuil a’ Ghaeilg nó a’ Bhriotáinis leathbheo. Beo atá siad.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 263
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 07:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thank you for including "Vosgien" to the list, Lughaidh !
It's not mentioned in the Wikipedia article...

ouète pouhé ! [wètpuhe:] (dirty pigs)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1174
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 07:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sula raibh aithne agam ort ní raibh 's agam go raibh teangaidh oïl ar leith á labhairt i réagún na Vosges, agus cha gcreidfinn go deo go mbeadh sí chomh difriúil sin ón Fhraincis :-)

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 264
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 09:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>cha gcreidfinn go deo go mbeadh sí chomh difriúil sin ón Fhraincis

It depends on the words. It's still an oïl language, but our neighbours (the Alsacians) speak a germanic language. No wonder Vosgian should have been more influenced by Germanic than most of the other oïl languages.

for instance:

words of latin origin:
- brayer [bRèje:] "to break" (French "broyer")
- trébeutcher [tRèbø:tSe:] "to stumble" (French "trébucher")

words of ? origin:
- bhotte [bhòt] "sloe" (French "prunelle")
- fouinger "to burn" (French "brûler")

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1175
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 11:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Interesting. With this Gentium font you can type in IPA in this forum (especially if you use Keyman):

[bʀɛjeː]
[tʀɛbøːtʃeː]
[bʰɔt]
[fwɛ̃ʒe] ?

Has you dialect been studied by someone?

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 266
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 02:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

testing:

[fwɛ̃ʒe:]

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 267
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 02:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am thrilled !!!

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 268
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 03:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Now wait a minute...

Comment se fait-il que je puisse lire ton API avec un "encodage du texte par défaut" alors que pour lire le mien, il faut que je sélectionne un encodage unicode ?

(J'avais sélectionné un encodage unicode pour poster le message car sinon j'avais droit à des points d'interrogation.)

Par ailleurs, quand je suis en unicode, je ne peux plus lire les [ò] ni les [ø]...

Que dois-je faire ?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1177
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 03:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Je sais pas, pour le texte ci-dessus, j'ai fait copié-collé à partir de Word...

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Dalta
Member
Username: Dalta

Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 07:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Pour moi, je peux pas lire l'API de Lughaidh mais je peux lire l'un de Max. Quelle puzzle.

Ar ais go dtí an ábhar idir ár láimhe, bhí mé i gConamara thar na deireadh seachtaine agus caithfear a rá, bhí an Ghaeilge ann go deimhin agus bhí sé beo bríomhar. Labhair mé le roinnt duine, agus astusan, labhair roinnt acu liom as Gaeilge, go háirithe na daoine sa Cheatrú Rua. I Ros a' Mhíl, bhí grúpaí daoine ann sa bhear céanna, ceann ag caint Béarla, ceann ag caint Gaeilge. Bhí na seanleaids ag caint Gaeilge ar ndóigh agus na hógánaigh ag caint Béarla. Ach, sa Cheathrú Rua bhi na hógánaigh ag caint Gaeilge. Bhí mé in eaglas i Baile na hAbhann agus bhí gasúr ag caint lena athar as Béarla.

Maidir le caint Gaeilge leis na hÉireannaigh, i gcuid maith den am, ceapaim gur cheap na daoine nach raibh mórán Gaeilge agam agus ní raibh mé ach ag iarraidh ar a sonsan. Bhí dealramh air go raibh siad ag iarraidh mise a shásamh in ionad a bheith míbhéasach dom toisc nach raibh Gaeilge foirfe agam. Caithfear a rá, ámh, b'fhéidir go raibh sé deacrachtach dóibh mise a thuiscint as Gaeilge nuair nach raibh an blas atá acusan agamsa agus nuair a bhíonn siad ag caint i gcánúint eile.



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