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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (November-December) » Archive through November 29, 2005 » For Grammar Mavens « Previous Next »

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 653
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 03:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cé acu ceann a déarfá?

a) guth an tseachtú fir
b) guth an seachtú fir
c) guth an tseachtú fear
d) guth an seachtú fear

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1054
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 04:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

De réir a' chaighdeáin, is dóigh liom go n-abróchaí:
c) guth an tseachtú fear.

Maidir liom féin, is dóigh liom go n-abróchainnse:
a) guth an tseachtú fir.

Níos loighciúla, níos simplí... níos ársa fosta, dar liom.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 847
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 07:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

guth an tseachtú fear

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1055
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 07:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Fuaimníocht (Gaoth Dobhair):

guth an tseachtú fear. /guN t'artu f'ar/

guth an tseachtú fir. /guN t'artu f'ij/

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 655
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 09:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is cosúil go bhfuil rogha ann idir "fear" agus "fir" i gcásanna mar seo, ceart go leor. Tá rud eile ann, áfach, nach tuigim ar fad. Fuair mé an abairt seo in Fiche Bliain ag Fás:

"Shuíomair síos ar ár sástacht gan focal cainte as éinne againn ach ag cogaint [na milseán] go dícheallach, agus deirim leat nach fada go bhfuaireamair blas an seachtú crosán orthu, mar do bhíodar an-láidir."

Nuair a cheadaigh mé FGB, fuair mé blas an seachtú crosáin ann.

Feictear dom, ón méid seo, go bhfuil idir "X an tseachtú Y" agus "X an seachtú Y" ceart. I'm agnostic on this point.

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Liz
Member
Username: Liz

Post Number: 36
Registered: 07-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 09:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cén leathanach, a Dennis? Breathnóidh mé ar an seanchóip atá agam a tháinig amach i 1933. B'fhéidir gur botún cló é.

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 656
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 10:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá an abairt i gcaibidil xiv: "Long ar Charraig an Lóchair". Tá sí sa pharagraf a thosaíonn le "Seo linn gan an tarna focal do rá", i lár na caibidle, ar lch 143 san eagrán atá agamsa. Ní dóigh liom gur dearmad cló atá ann, áfach.

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 657
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 11:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maidir leis na crosáin, caithfidh nach bhfuil a lán feola orthu (mar is féidir seacht gcinn acu a ithe), ach go bhfuil siad sách oiltiúil. Níor bhlais mé éan mara riamh!

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 424
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

guth an seachtmhadh fear — guφ э ∫axdu: f'ar (Maigh Eo)
____________________

“Ní rabh siad ach i dtús an seiseadh fáinne.

—Séamus 'ac Grianna, “Ben Hur”
__________

“Bean a tháinig 'un na Frainnce agus leanbh beag léithe i lár a' seachtmhadh céad déag.

—Séamus 'ac Grianna, “Saoghal Corrach”
__________

“Tá builg bheag ag an cheann thiar de Inis Fraoich agus b'fhéidir gur uair i gcionn a' seachtmhadh bliadhain a bhrisfeadh sí.”
_____

“B'fhéidir i gcionn a' seachtmhadh glún go mbeadh corr-dhuine aca comh maith le muinntir na nGlinnte thoir.”

—Séamus 'ac Grianna, “An Clár is an Fhoireann”
__________

“Ach bhí Simonides ní ba dearcaighe ná í, agus dubhairt sé le hIldeirim, nuair a chuaidh an dís i dtoiseach an seachtmhadh fáinne, 'Tá mé amudha go mór, a Sheic chóir, nó tá Ben-Hur ag brath cleas éigin a imirt ar ball.'”
__________

“Do thairbhe eólais a fuair mé, d'imthigh mé go Canterbury, i Zealainn Nua i dtrátha an seachtmhadh mí an bhliadhain s' chuaidh thart.”

—Domhnall 'ac Grianna, “Gadaidheacht le Láimh Láidir”

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22tobar+na+gaedhilge%22
____________________

“Ní bhíonn an t- roimh na horduimhreacha thosaíos le s, ach bíonn roimh aidiachta eile, e.g. э ∫e:u: kid' an séú cuid; э ∫æxdu: b'æN an seachtú bean; эN' t'æŋxa:L'эx an t-sean-chailleach."

— Tomás de Bhaldraithe, "Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge"
____________________

"Buachaill óg do bhí muinnteardha lé cailín óg ar feadh seacht mbliadhna, agus pósadh lé fear eile i gcionn an seachtmhadh bliadhain í"

— Risteard B. Breatnach, "The Irish of Ring, Co. Waterford"

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 659
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA as na samplaí, a Pheadair. Feictear dom mar sin gur féidir na leaganacha uilig a leag mé amach thuas (a thru d) a úsáid gan locht. I rather like the way that the insertion of "seachtú" (or any of the other ordinal number, apparently) absolves the speaker of any need to make the article agree with the noun, or to put the noun in the expected genitive: bás an dara bean or bás na dara mná, take your pick!

Something else from Fiche Bliain ag Fás:

"ag caitheamh uaidh an miothán" (= tossing aside the splint [split wood used in basket making])

Ceist: cén fáth nach bhfuil "an miothán" sa ghinideach? Toisc go bhfuil focal eile, "uaidh" sa chás seo, ina sheasamh idir an dá ainmfhocal?

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 851
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Considering how you'd have:

ag caitheamh miotháin
ag caitheamh miothán mór

(The 2nd one isn't genitized because it has an adjective with it)

Maybe they expand on that to include other words (like prepositions).

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 661
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ach is é "an miothán" atá i gceist anseo.

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 853
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh I see. . .

Well then I see three possibilities:

A) The presence of a preposition between verbal noun and noun has resulted in non-genitization of the noun. So similarly you'd have "ag tabhairt dó an leabhar".

B) This is just a weird example... like how some people say "I'm doing a pharmacy course", while others say "I'm doing a pharamceutical course".

C) It's just plain wrong, a "brain fart", or a typographical error.


My guess would be A.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 107
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 01:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tossing from it - the splint.
Something says to me that one isn't near 'splint's tossing from it' ( Watching it take place?), but is actually performing the task.
Another tricky word order thing?

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 663
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 01:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Tossing from it - the splint.

uaidh = from him, sa chás seo
Caith uait é. = Throw it away.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2575
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 03:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Muise, tá Dennis de shíor ag cuir le mo chuid Eabhraise!

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=maven

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Liz
Member
Username: Liz

Post Number: 37
Registered: 07-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 03:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Tá an abairt i gcaibidil xiv: "Long ar Charraig an Lóchair"



Tá an ceart agat, a Dennis. Ní botún cló ann. Ach tá rud suimiúil ann -- is caibidil XV é "Long ar Charraig an Lóchair" i mo sheaneagrán.



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