mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (November-December) » Archive through November 29, 2005 » Cartyweb Irish English Online Dictionary « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cartyweb Internet (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 04:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

We are looking for the support of all at Daltai.com in providing a Irish - English dictionary online.

While some already exist, we aim to build the biggest and best.

Phase One is the word for word version, and in February the Beta stage of the Phrase version will be launched.

This dictionary will be incorporated into Cartyweb.com and Cartyweb.co.uk websites, and will be freeware for others to incorporate into their websites.

Click on http://www.CelticHosting.com/Gaelige-Bearla to see it in action, and log in to http://www.CelticHosting.com/Gaelige-Bearla/admin.asp to add subjects.

Please keep an eye that there are as few duplicate information as possible, and alert us to any abuse of it.

Spead the word of the project!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2566
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 05:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gaeilge is ainm don teanga! Cé thú féin, pé scéal é?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1053
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 05:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

First of all, those who have done that dictionary should know that the name of the language is Gaeilge, not Gaelige... ;-)

Tír Chonaill abú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cartyweb Internet (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 05:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Give us a break, it was thrown together pretty quick...

Ill get it right at next update...

Can you log in and get the vocabulary built up?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 651
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 05:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Iontas na n-iontas! Aonghus agus Lughaidh ag caint as béal a chéile!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2567
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 05:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tuige nach mbeadh? Tá an aidhm chéanna againn - níl ann ach go bhfuil muid ar mhalairt tuairime faoin modh.

Cartyweb,
I'd appreciate knowing more about who is behind the project before committing to it.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cartyweb Internet (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 05:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Its a simple project... log in, add in...

- Freeware: Its non commercial. Its not to be sold, will not be sold, and in its full version will not be editable. The editable version will exist and be linked to from sources such as this.

There are versions for Scots Gaelic already, and a full phrase translator for Welsh from http://www.Tranexp.com

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lucy (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 05:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Why are you so reluctant to tell us exactly who you are? And all of your messages have spelling and grammatical mistakes that indicate sloppiness. Who needs some slapped together Irish-English dictionary? And do you have the skill necessary to edit contibutions?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 62
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cartyweb seems to have a bit of a hidden agenda:

http://www.celtichosting.com/teanganua/news_item.asp?NewsID=1
(if that doesn't work, try this: http://www.celtichosting.com/teanganua/)

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 63
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 10:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Another:
http://www.celtichosting.com/teanganua/aspbite/categories/index.asp?intCatID=1

Don't forget to visit the "Grammer" forum on their site.

;-)

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cartyweb Internet (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 06:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

All the smart boys out there, for all your knowledge, have done nothing online like this to get Irish online for the ordinary user.

You who have Irish better than mine is who Im trusting to build this: Im just adapting software to work with the language. The sofware incidently was initially for Arabic, and if its good enough for a language spoken by 300 million, its good enough for Irish.

I wont edit it: I want someone from here to work on it,someone who I'd trust like Aonghus or Jonas who Ive had exchanges with in the past, and who I know know thier stuff.

The agenda is not hidden: yes, Teanga Nua is another of my projects, as is RomaFilmFund.com a few other projects.

Sure, when I type fast my spelling goes to hell, its not sloppiness,its normal.

When people talk fast, their grammer often shows less than perfect structure in usage, but that does not mean we who claim to speak better call them sloppy in speaking.

Can you take your dislike or distrust of me /my ATN project, and put it to one side,and give this project a chance?

Ask yourself, what have you done online to make the language more accessable to surfers? Say the cupla focial to those already fluent, and make those not fluent feel foolish and that its not their language?

If you want you can get a comitte of Daltai users together to work on this, appoint an editor, appoint contributors per subject, and Ill look after the programming end, that it works.

I think Jonas or Aonghus would be good to head this one up: are you up for it lads?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 846
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 07:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ha, you sound like an employer.

What's our next project boss?

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 312
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 08:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To Cartyweb:

Tell us what is your first language. I for one would feel more comfortable if I knew that English were as difficult for you as Irish is for me. In this day of advanced technology it is not unusual for a person's cyber skills to far exceed his linguistic prowess.

The man does make some good points, a chairde. I don't have enough Irish to help him, but I'd like to see what he says he's planning become available.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2569
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 09:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm reluctant to get involved in some project where there isn't an easily identifiable real person behind it.

All of the useful sites, professional or otherwise, I have seen on the internet have been up front about the backers.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 64
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 09:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To any Daltaí board members who might be tempted to take Cartyweb seriously, let me point out that he's attempting to "reinvent the wheel" -- with other people's expertise! Online dictionaries, thesauruses, grammar overviews, seanfhocail, idioms, etc. exist already. Here are just a few:

http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/
http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/Gram/index.html
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/foclora/
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~smacsuib/bng/tobar/
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/foclora/abhair/riomhaire.html
http://w3.lincolnu.edu/~focal/
http://www.daltai.com/grammar.htm
http://www.ite.ie/morph.htm
http://www.fiosfeasa.com/bearla/language/grammar1.htm
http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm

Cartyweb - the casual "surfer" (as you like to call him/her), is more than well served by the MANY online resources already available, of which the few mentioned above are but the merest hint. The members of this board already contribute their expertise online -- not just here on Daltai.com, as astute observers will notice that some of the sites above were created by Daltaí board members. I won't name these members, as no one here does this for self-aggrandisement, but we all know who they are.

Serious students of Irish don't need another online dictionary, as they have no problem buying one of the many modestly priced dictionaries that are available for sale. There are also software-based dictionaries and other resources, if said students wish to have something available on their computer. Some of these products even speak the words for the student.

Cartyweb, your posts to this forum are replete with spelling errors. Your several websites are full of poorly written English and Irish, and no doubt the other languages you purport to be advancing are also served up with the same reckless disregard. An occasional error may be attributed to careless typing, but your errors are too consistent to be written off to typographical stumbles.

As for your notions about "reforming" Irish, it's been tried by better people than yourself, Cartyweb. You're probably too young to remember "Shán Ó Cuív", but I suggest you look him up and see how well he fared trying to do exactly what you're attempting.

Finally, Cartyweb, I notice that you've suddenly taken down one of the pages I cited in a previous post; nice try, Cartyweb, but Google has been archiving them:
http:///search?q=cache:7LZkVU54P5EJ:www.celtichosting.com/teanganua /aspbite/categories/index.asp%3FintCatID%3D1+&hl=ga

If speakers of Irish wish to "reform" it, they will do so. They need no help from a self-appointed "saviour" who has sloppy English and little Irish.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 65
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 09:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Some highlights of Cartyweb's plans for Irish:

"We need to standardise the tenses of Irish to make them easier for students to learn. They will then be more enthuesiastic, and the language will survive as students will learn wen they see progress."

"The current 12 or so irregular tenses should be cut to two or three, if not one, as they result from the writing of Irish to Latin standards, not from the origional spoken langauge."

"Too many worlds are creeping in from other langauges, taking the Gaelic aspect of Irish from the langauge, both from the modernisation point of view (to which a section is being devoted) and the existing point of view."

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lucy (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 10:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I remember this "gentleman" now. He was on this Forum some years ago with his plan to modernize Irish spelling, etc. Check out his website and see that the home page is full of mistakes - really sloppy work - consistant with his postings above. Ego is not a substitute for scholarship.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 66
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 10:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Lucy:
>>I remember this "gentleman" now. He was on this
>>Forum some years ago with his plan to modernize
>>Irish spelling, etc.

I'm not sure if he's been here before "in person" (hard to tell, as he's "unregistered"), but someone decided to bring up his site as a discussion topic last year:

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/12465/13213.html#POST18390

Funny that Cartyweb should be trying to recruit our friend Jonas, given Jonas' stated opinion about Cartyweb's "Teanga Nua" website last year:
"This sounds as the most idiotic idea I've heard in ages."

It may be a year old, but wisdom is timeless.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 654
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 09:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá ár mbuíochas ag dul duit, a Ch, as do chuid bleachtaireachta! Thug tú bata is bóthar do do dhuine go deas néata. :-)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 425
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 12:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Give us a break"

Skedaddle, pooch.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 71
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 09:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Dennis:

>>Tá ár mbuíochas ag dul duit, a Ch, as
>>do chuid bleachtaireachta!

Tabhair Seosamh Aoine orm inniu, a Dhennis. ;-)

Ní maith liom amadáin mórtaiseach . . .

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dalta (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

God forbid we help this guy create an English-Irish dictionary. He could easily use it to take over the world or worse.

You guys are talking through your arse and being completely ignorant for no reason to someone who genuinely loves the language and is trying his best. I'm very disillusioned with you all and have formed an un-enviable opinion of Clonaodh. The grá don teanga isn't visible here ar aon nós.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 72
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 01:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh "Dalta":

>>God forbid we help this guy create an
>>English-Irish dictionary.


If that's all Cartyweb was trying to do - and if there weren't already better dictionaries out there -- we'd have no complaints. But wander over to http://www.englishirishdictionary.com/ and realise, like I said, that Cartyweb is proposing to reinvent the wheel - and with others' time & skill. He has been shown to have sloppy English and poor Irish. Why would anyone want a dictionary from him?

But this dictionary isn't the only agenda that Cartyweb has. He would very much like to eliminate most tenses of Irish verbs -- says he: "The current 12 or so irregular tenses should be cut to two or three, if not one..." I'm sorry, "Dalta", but I can't communicate with one tense. Perhaps you can.

He's also afraid of aliens taking over Irish, or so it seems from this quote of his: "Too many worlds are creeping in from other langauges, taking the Gaelic aspect of Irish from the langauge..."

But if you really like what Cartyweb's doing, I'm sure he'd welcome an acolyte.

>>I'm very disillusioned with you all and
>>have formed an un-enviable opinion of Clonaodh.


Good thing no one envies your opinion then, "Dalta".

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 562
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 10:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"The current 12 or so irregular tenses should be cut to two or three, if not one..."

not that I think the guy's on to anything, but my understanding of the above sentence is that he intends to cut down the number by regularizing some of the less common irregular tenses, not eliminate them from speech entirely.

I think some reform in certain areas can do the language a lot of good, but not what he's described.


Dalta, while perhaps more tact could have been used, I would venture to say that most of the respondants likely feel that cartyweb's scheme will cause harm to the language by hobbling students rather than helping them. Hence the intensity of the reactions.

The last thing the Irish language needs is *more* division in the ranks...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 73
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 06:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Antaine:

>>I think some reform in certain areas can do
>>the language a lot of good, but not what
>>he's described.

Is there room for improvement in Irish grammar/spelling? Possibly. But we've learned to be very careful. The last well-intentioned reform, the "Caighdeán Oifigiúil" caused nearly as many problems as it solved -- and it was the work of numerous well-educated souls. If we should embark upon some new "reform" of this language, let it be done with twice or thrice the caution as before, and not upon the whimsy of a self-aggrandising amateur.

If this were just about Cartyweb's proposed dictionary, we'd politely say -- "We're all set, Cartyweb, we don't need another", pat his head and send him on his way, irrespective of his haughty assumption that talented Gaeilgeoirí would want to "donate" their services to recreate what already exists so that Cartyweb could make his place among the resources of the web . . . on the backs of others.

But it's not just about his dictionary - he has a raft of crackpot projects that aren't readily obvious, but which turn up when you Google "http://www.CelticHosting.com" and find out what other pages he runs from there -- everything from the aforementioned poorly spelled and ill-advised "Teanga Nua" nonsense to promotion of his so-called book "Writings in Rhyme" (which besides lacking talent, also contains numerous spelling errors), and his various oddball hobbies.

In my opinion, his assertion that Daltaí members do nothing to make learning resources available online is the last straw -- the gloves are off now. Not only does the Daltai site itself have grammar resources online, I know for a fact that dozens of board members have created material online for the benefit of learners. Cartyweb's insinuation merely proves that he truly is as ignorant and arrogant as he seems to be.

And finally, he never did reply to the several friendly requests that he identify himself (although the aforementioned Google search reveals his identity plainly enough). I suspect he thinks (rightly) that we'd think less of his "project" once we got to know him.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Diarmo
Member
Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 166
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 07:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Somebody that can't be bothered even to register and introduce himself doesn't really sound like someone who is in it for the love of the language rather to make some money for himself..

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 857
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 07:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Nobody seems to have mentioned the small issue that you can't change a language. If somebody told me to start saying "I goed" instead of "I went", it's just not going to happen. Spelling reforms are a different matter though altogether ( the first thing I'd change in English is the spelling of the past tense of the verb "read" ).

So what makes you think that people who communicate with each other in Irish are going to reshape their system of communciation which has become second nature to them?

Furthermore, (hypothetically speaking) what makes you think they'll listen to a pretentious idiot who's trying to tell them how to communicate in their language? Or even go as far as to tell them to change the way they communicate. Then tell them the idiot doesn't even speak the language...

"Irish" doesn't belong to the Irish people -- it belongs to the people who speak it. If I were able to speak Spanish, I'd consider it to be something that belongs to me, an attribute of mine. I don't speak Spanish, so I've nothing to do with it.

Many people in Ireland can't speak Irish, boo hoo -- this person seems to have come up with some bullshit theory that it's something inherently wrong with the language (ie. that it's too complicated). No language is complicated! I expended minimal effort in writing this post; I speak English fluently and I don't have to "think" about shaping my sentences in English -- my subconcious does that for me regardless of how "complicated" the language is.

When I was at an earlier stage of learning Irish, I thought it was very complicated (and difficult) to know when and where to stick a séimhiú in the likes of the following:

an bata beag
X an bhata bhig

an pháirc bheag
X na páirce bige

Now it seems painlessly simple to me... and why? Because I don't have to think about it -- the human brain is good at languages; once you learn a language, the task of communicating in it is delegated to your subconscious -- you no longer have to think about what you want to say. It's second nature to me now when to stick words in the genitive case, eg.:

ag lorg an bhuachalla
in aice an tí

Only thing that can be done is to reshape the teaching and learning system of the language.

No matter how stupid a person is, they'll eventually be able to communicate effortlessly in any language -- regardless of how "complicated" it is.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 08:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can I say one thing in Dalta's defence -the idomatic phrase exchanger between Irish and English would be a good idea, I think, as it would be useful for experiments in training.

Some theories in language learnign now posit the sentance as of great import in learning.

An idiom can be a) grammatical b) phonetic c) have suprasegmantal elements c) be semantic ) can contextually, encode for the fluent, social idiom ('yer wan', 'bean an tí', hell, "top o' da mornin'!" etc which are hard to teach outside of a community context)

Sooo...while there are resources out there for parallel corpii, none give a tranlation that would be easily analysable, say for its grammar, like the olivia hill system, (altho, of course, grammar is not semantics, but it may aid memory for learners)

As for 12 tenses to 3? NO!



©Daltaí na Gaeilge