Y'all might be interested in these recordings of every lesson in Progress in Irish.

http://www.philo-celtic.com/PII/Progress.htm


Bainigí sult astu! Enjoy them!

"Some people are always looking for mistakes, and we didn't want to dissapoint anyone!"

Well you certainly made my day as links 1-9 ar briste. And yes, I tested every link.

Chan oibreann na naisc: nuair a chliceáiltear ar na naisc nó nuair a bheirtear iarracht na taifeadtaí a íoslódáil, thig leathanach ann ar a bhfuil scríofa nach n-oibreann an nasc.

Deiseoidh mé anocht iad. Ba chóir Lesson01.mp3...09.mp3 a bheith ann. Tá na comhaid ann.
The files are there. I left out the zeros in the names, and will fix that tonight. Gabhaigí mo leithscéal.

Más fearr libh, téigí go dtí
http://www.philo-celtic.com/PII/
agus ná bacaigí leis an brpíomhleathanach.
If you prefer, go to this other link and don't bother with the main page.
(Message edited by Séamas_Ó_neachtain on November 25, 2005)

(Message edited by Séamas_Ó_neachtain on November 25, 2005)

D’éist mé leis a’ chéad chionn. Deirfinn nach cainteoir dúchais a’ fear atá a’ labhairt ann. Cupla meancóg nó rud aisteach ina chaint (many English diphthongs, some English r’s, "abhaile" pronounced as if it were "abhaille", etc).

Dheisigh mé na naisc.

Déan leagan níos fearr, a Lughaidh.

Maith an fear, a Shéamais

First of all I must say how good these recordings sound,
there's no hiss!

Native speaker or not, I think learners everywhere will benefit from these audio files.
The 'Cuir Gaeilge air seo' section is now like a quiz with the added challenge of answering the question before the speaker does. It's great practice.

Míle buíochas

Ok, so lessons 30 -> 52 are a bit hissy and over compressed :)

These (the ones with Raymond) were orignally done on a cheap casette recorder, over a period of many years. As the years went on, the quality got worse (until where I started again, with good recording equipment). I doctored them as best I could, but there are deficiencies in the quality. They are still quite usable, and I think pretty clear overall. I hope other people can now benefit from these, as probably hundreds of people by now have at our school.

Ar fheabhas, a Sheamais.

Ar fheabhas ar fad.

Buiochas. Buiochas.

A Shéamais, go raibh míle míle maith agat. You read my mind. I had a 1 millionth generation cassette copy of progress that someone had kindly recorded long ago -- the one with a lady singing condaeweeeooooo at the end. Thanks to the nameless who made this tape as well. It is helpful to have the skeleton sounds of all those tricky constructions as you're learning. Sound perfection is not necessary until you get as good as Lughaidh which is something I fear I'll never do!

As good as Lughaidh says he is, you mean. We've yet to hear him... ;-)
Raymond, by the way, has a house in Conamara, and converses with the locals without any problem. His Irish is better today than it was 16 years ago, but it wasn't bad then either.

(Message edited by Séamas_Ó_neachtain on November 28, 2005)

quote:

We've yet to hear him...

B'fhéidir go bhfuil aithne ag Colleen air. Ar casadh ar a chéile sibh in Éirinn, a Ch agus a L?

B'fhéidir go bhfuil aithne ag Colleen air. Ar casadh ar a chéile sibh in Éirinn, a Ch agus a L?

Ní dóigh liom é. Cé thusa, a Cholleen? cá bhfeicfeasmaid a chéile? 'Rabh tú in Ollscoil Chúil Raithin sa bhliain ollscoile 2001-2002?

As good as Lughaidh says he is, you mean. We've yet to hear him... ;-)

If you want to hear the sounds of my Irish, go to Phouka's website, there is a page and recordings about Irish sounds, I've made all that, you can hear my voice then. At least you'll hear whether I use English sounds or Irish sounds.

Raymond, by the way, has a house in Conamara, and converses with the locals without any problem.

That isn't any proof! Gaeltacht people understand people, even when they speak another dialect or when they speak very badly.

Ní raibh, a Lughaidh. Níl mé anseo ach ó dheireadh 2003 agus ní raibh deis agam am a chaitheamh sa Ghaeltacht go fóill ach ar cúpla turas deireadh seachtaine ó am go chéile. Níor chas mé le Lughaidh go fóill, más buan mo chuimhne. Although Gaeltacht people often understand me, Lughaidh might not, mar bhíonn mo chuid fuaimeanna uilig ró-mí-chruinn! : )
C

Cloisim ana-chuid scéalta faoi Ray agus a teach i gConamara ó Cris anseo i mBÁC.
Nach beag ár n-e-domhain-ne?

Although Gaeltacht people often understand me,

Often? ní i gcónaí?

Lughaidh might not, mar bhíonn mo chuid fuaimeanna uilig ró-mí-chruinn! : )

Tuigim Gaeilg nuair a bíos blas Béarla ann féin, cé nach bhfuil sí chomh soiléir agam leis a’ Ghaeilg dhúchasach. Thuigfinn thú, gan amhras.

Lesson 72: "Cuaga Chaineacht"; "Do mbiofá li dul ó Bhala Chlaoidhe go Gallaibh..."; "Deire Cholm Cille"; "Tá na ba thíos sa chlann" etc. etc.

Mé cuíosach do-thuigthe i mBéarla scaití chomh maith, ní fiú i gcónaí a rá i gcónaí!

Lesson 72: "Cuaga Chaineacht"; "Do mbiofá li dul ó Bhala Chlaoidhe go Gallaibh..."; "Deire Cholm Cille"; "Tá na ba thíos sa chlann" etc. etc.

Oh my... !!!!!!! Níor éist mé leis a’ chionn sin. ’S fearr domh é, b’fhéidir go rachainn i bhfanntais!

"If you want to hear the sounds of my Irish, go to Phouka's website, there is a page and recordings about Irish sounds, I've made all that, you can hear my voice then. At least you'll hear whether I use English sounds or Irish sounds.

Maith an fear, a Lughaidh!

I don't recall Séamas asserting that this work was free of flaws. I think if someone were to create PII audio and do it better than Scoil Ghaeilge has done, Séamas and his colleagues would be among the first to embrace it. But let's face it -- this was a daunting project, and hats off to the Scoil Ghaeilge folks for getting it done. Lughaidh, Peadar -- if you don't like what they've done, please create something better. We'll all thank you for it.

I don't have enough time now. And actually, I would feel uncomfortable making recordings of spoken Irish since it isn't my native language. But obviously, many people don't have as many scruples as me about that! So maybe I'll do something, just keeping in mind that my pronunciation will be better than much (most?) of what can be found on the web, even if I am not a native speaker...
Now I don't have enough time -- making such lessons requires much time -- I'm working on my PhD dissertation etc.

I did recordings of the sounds, as I said. Recordings don't take as much time as making lessons. If I only had to make recordings, I'll do them. If one of you wants to make lessons, I can do the recordings for him! :-)

Lughaidh -- There's a small beginner's course called First Steps in Irish by the Christian Brothers. No need to make lessons -- they're already written -- why don't you do the recordings for that book? We'd really appreciate it. I'd even send you a copy of the book if you can't find one.

grma
Nicole

I, ahem,...made some phonetic recordings too, and with some phones Lughaidh did not have in that dialect (such as /z'/ and /z/, Hiberno-English alveolar /t/ and /d/ etc and anything that the phonomeic studies have in those books by the gov.

I'll put them up too when I have time (I ahve a thesis too) and so are a) more southern in their bias and b) have a generalised nasal quality.

Myself, I would not see recordings done by non-natives as a standard too, unless you want a more historical rendering that natives might see as naff.

Example in 'Gaeilge Theilinn' by that Arnold chap (soory cant recall the full name) a cursory parse on it revealed that he seen geminate consonants in the older speakers in the mid 20th century, and usualy say where /R/ met /R/ at word boundaries. So it is not just in sean-ghaeilge, but later on.

Dennis, geninate consonats, did they cease to be phonetic and just became purely accidental elemetns after that?

Lughaidh -- There's a small beginner's course called First Steps in Irish by the Christian Brothers. No need to make lessons -- they're already written -- why don't you do the recordings for that book? We'd really appreciate it. I'd even send you a copy of the book if you can't find one.

Yeah, I know that book, I had a look at it some time ago. How many lessons? Have I to record everything? I'm afraid it is standard Irish. Sometimes it will be odd to me to give my Donegal pronounciation of words or forms that don't exist in Donegal Irish...

Tomorrow I'll go to the university, I'll try to borrow it, then I'll see when I'll do the recordings.

For example, how will I pronounce "tagann tú" and things like that? That doesn’t exist in Donegal, we say "thig tú". If i replace every non-Donegal form by the Donegal form, what you'll hear won't be what is on the paper...
I can give a try anyway, but I won't like to give my pronounciation for such forms...

It seems the verb forms in FSII are standard, but many of the choices of vocabulary and some of the grammar favours Ulster. And that's often how the Christian Brothers handle things in their books.

As for getting the sounds right -- Lughaidh, I've heard many Ulster speakers modify their choices of words/verbs when addressing groups outside their Gaeltacht. The sounds differ from Connacht & Munster (especially the vowels), but in the end you have standard Irish spoken with an Ulster accent. Not a problem for most learners. It might annoy purists somewhat, but I'd wager there are more learners here than purists. Learners will simply be grateful to get some audio for a book that lacks it, and tend to be forgiving about dialect inconsistencies. And since FSII is Caighdeán Irish, no one is going to "get it right", since it's no one's dialect -- but most understand it.

grma, a Lughaidh. As I recall, there are less than thirty lessons in the book (28?) and many of the later lessons just focus on straight verb conjugations (in standard Irish). I'm not qualified to say how you should/could pronounce things, but it would probably be better if things matched the book. Perhaps another list member has some ideas.

I understand your concerns about having native speakers do recordings. However, PII has been out for decades and there hasn't been widely distributed recordings for it. Many people rely on attending classes or tapes that someone recorded twenty-plus years ago on an old tape recorder to listen to the sounds in question.

If we (and by "we" I mean those in the Western hemisphere) only relied on native speakers to make recordings (or to teach classes) we'd still be waiting for recordings and we wouldn't have very many teachers for classes. I think any efforts by competent speakers are appreciated -- we'd obviously love to have recordings by native speakers, but native speakers are a bit hard to come by in the Americas.

You guys sure remind me of the trolls on Clár Plé Beo.

There are 28 lessons in FSII - so it's just a beginner's course, but covers a lot of the basics.

For those who have FSII, you'll also notice it lacks answer keys for the exercises. You'll find a set here:
http://www.gaeilge.org/FSII-ak.html

Now all we need is some audio. ;-)

Scríobh Séamas:

>>You guys sure remind me of the trolls on Clár Plé Beo.

I don't think things are as personal here, a Shéamais. And you'll noticed that most of the members commenting here appreciated what you've done.

I think one of the reasons that no one had done a full set of audio for PII before now is not so much that it takes a long time or that there's no tangible reward, but that one is likely to become the focus of nit-picking and fault-finding. You and your colleagues were willing to do it anyway, and I salute you. And as I told Peadar & Lughaidh, if they can do something better, we'll all thank them for that. In the meantime, at least we have your work available. GRMMA, a Shéamais agus SG.

As to why you're such a lightning rod on BEO, I haven't the foggiest idea. ;-)

(Message edited by cionaodh on November 29, 2005)

Maith an fear Cionaodh,
Well said!
Séamas,
If it wasn't clear before let me say again how glad I am for your and Réamonn's enterprise here. To be able to listen to Progress in Irish is wonderful.

Go raibh maith agaibh, a chairde.
Ní bhíonn sé chomh pearsanta anseo ionas go mbíonn maoirseacht anseo, déarfainn.

Inis 'hello' do Chris, a Chailíndoll. Sea, is beag an rud é saol na Gaeilge.

Séamus,
I'd like to second the praise too. I know if I were to do a course too, there would be mistakes as well, only less.

Anyway, I'd liek (but I know it is beyond the bounds of possibility) if we had terms of reference or a menu for producers to aim for.

Last night, when I recorded Rómán's Russian I failed to save it at a high enough bit rate. So, sample rate should be one dimension.

Others:
Technical: sample rate; clarity; good, rich reproduction of all speech

Grammar: state at beginning if it as a) dialectical and where b) official c) mixed d) historical e) mixed time dialect
PS: grammar quality: 95% etc correct etc

Idiom: a) tradional b) modern c) mixed d) borrowed and mixed (Tóg go bog é etc)

Phones etc: a) phonemes b) allophones c) prosody (which would be breakable down even more)

Pedagogic style: a) techer b) technical instruction c) learn by repeat d) write it out etc

Aids: What other aids are there? State from book, on-line resource etc Phonetic aids etc

>I'd wager there are more learners here than purists.

I'm not a purist, I am just serious! Sorry, I just think that the best speakers are the native (Gaeltacht) ones, and that we should all do our best to speak Irish like them.

And it's OK to mock the efforts of anyone else.
Bás in Éirinn (don teanga). No one records around 18 hours of talking without a few stumbles. Who cares? Taken as a whole, no one will learn incorrect pronunciation from these recordings. As has been pointed out, no one ever claimed there were no mistakes - quite the opposite. And if one 'g' in a hundred isn't slender enough for you and upsets you so much, then these recordings are not for you.

Robert - ní thuigim. Is féidir leis na teangeolaithe seo, nó fiú le daoine normálta, léarmheas ar bith a dhéanamh air. Is cuma liom. Mar a dúirt mé cheana, níl caighdeán an-ard ar an bhfuaim sa chuid is mó dá bhfuil ann. Is féidir le innealtóir ar bith socrú ar bitrates agus a leithéid, de réir a thola féin.

"Taken as a whole, no one will learn incorrect pronunciation from these recordings."

They most certainly will. You've learned a lot of Irish. You know a lot of the grammar, vocabulary and idioms, you read plenty and communicate well in written Irish; but you do not yet understand the pronunciation (of any dialect, mixture of dialects, or "standard form"). Your pronunciation does not have a few minor slips here and there; it is plagued with consistent gross errors. That is the plain truth. You can learn it well if you want to, but if you don't care you won't. I'm not talking about "advanced studies" for "professional linguists, academics and pedants," but about the sounds — the first rudiments — of the Irish language. You've learned some of them; learn the rest. Learn how to produce them, how to distinguish them, how they work together, and why Irish is spelled the way it is. Nothing in Irish is "as in English."

Please don't take offense. I have some very good friends from Ireland whose pronunciation is quite pathetic — the product of a tradition of "getting a bum steer and passing it on." That's what Enda Kenny's been squawking about, right?

Buntús Cainte, Learning Irish, Cúrsa Closamhairc Gaeilge...

Scríobh Peadar:

>>They most certainly will. You've learned a lot
>>of Irish. You know a lot of the grammar, vocabulary
>>and idioms, you read plenty and communicate well
>>in written Irish; but you do not yet understand
>>the pronunciation (of any dialect, mixture of
>>dialects, or "standard form"). Your pronunciation
>>does not have a few minor slips here and there;
>>it is plagued with consistent gross errors.

Will you be making some better recordings for us, Peadar? You're pretty good at badmouthing the only full set of recordings of Progress in Irish created in the 35 years since Ní Ghráda wrote it. If Scoil Ghaeilge's PII recordings aren't up to your standards, might we prevail upon you for a better set?

Le meas,
Cionaodh

A Pheadair, hi. Ba mhaith liom do mheas a fháil ar fhuaimniú na gcainteoirí in Buntús Cainte. How would you place their pronunciation(s) in terms of dialect features?

Scríobh Lughaidh:

quote:

Sorry, I just think that the best speakers are the native (Gaeltacht) ones, and that we should all do our best to speak Irish like them.

I don't think anybody disagrees with that, Lughaidh. But in the absence of material by them, people far from the source have to settle for second best, or give up.

Would you prefer all learners to give up? That would be the fastest way to kill the gaeltacht - it relies on people outside to show people living their that the language is valued and cherished.

The value of people like Séamas & co demonstrating the language is of value to others outside Ireland should not be underestimated.

I don't think anybody disagrees with that, Lughaidh. But in the absence of material by them,

There are plenty of recordings by native speakers on the web (BBC, etc) and with learning books (Learning Irish, Now You're Talking...).

it relies on people outside to show people living their that the language is valued and cherished.

I'm not sure Gaeltacht people continue to speak their language because they know that many people love the Irish language. Most speak it because it's their first language, or because they do love Irish, I'd say.

Scríobh Lughaidh:

>>There are plenty of recordings by native speakers
>>on the web (BBC, etc) and with learning books
>>(Learning Irish, Now You're Talking...).

There are, of course. But none for Progress in Irish. What difference does that make? PII is popular in the U.S. precisely because of the sort of demographic which is most common in Irish classes here. I can't speak for Séamas' group, but I can tell you that from my experience the average age of the student of Irish in the U.S. is about 45-50. Some younger & some older, of course, but most about middle-age. Such people no longer acquire languages in the more organic way a child does. He/she needs to know nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc. and where they go. Ní Ghráda's book is excellent for this. It's dreadful for teaching conversation, so it's usually supplemented with other materials. But for plain old-fashioned grammar-based teaching in Irish, PII is one of the best. But it has always suffered from lack of recordings.

Séamas has now solved that problem. And until a native speaker or very fluent person steps up to make a better set, the SG recordings of PII will suffice.

Learning Irish is a nice course, but too difficult for many older learners in the U.S. PII explains things more plainly and in smaller "chunks".

Now You're Talking is an enjoyable conversational course but teaches almost no grammar, so is of marginal use in the U.S. market.

The B.B.C. materials are also very nice, but they do not teach the language in a way to which older U.S. students can relate.

Do you see a pattern here, a Lughaidh? Most of us don't learn languages as you do, or as children do. You're a talented fellow with a very limber brain. Most of my students show up in class to learn Irish having not set foot in a classroom for many decades. The language centres of their brains no longer acquire things as yours does.

It's not that we're stupid or lazy -- we just learn differently. PII is "our kind of different". All the newfangled "communicative" courses have fallen flat on their arses here, Lughaidh, because most of us don't learn that way. Any publisher hoping to conquer the U.S. market in Irish language materials needs to take this into account.

So suggest all the audio materials you like, a Lughaidh. We'll buy some of them; we'll use a few of them now & then; but they won't be our primary learning materials.

U.S. students, by and large, will need to learn to structure their Irish thoughts in their heads grammatically before they'll feel comfortable enough to go immerse themselves -- whether in other audio materials or in a visit to the Gaeltacht.

PII helps them acquire Irish structurally. You may not think highly of it because of your own learning preferences, but it hasn't stayed on the market for 35 years for nothing -- it works, and it's popular. And PII is much better when it has audio available -- and now we have some (GRMA, a Shéamais!). And it'll suffice until someone makes up something better.

The thing is Lughaidh, I'd say the majority of speakers on the 'now you're talking' BBC/Éamonn Ó Dónaill course are not native speakers. Still, I like the course very much even though the Ulster dialect is not my favourite.

Of course there's Turas Teanga as well which is fantastic, especially the DVD which has 8 hours of material.
Actually, I'd love to see what you guys think of Turas Teanga (dvd) They have sound scape sections on there with native speakers and I can hardly understand a word of it ;)

Talking of the BBC. It's true that the amount of Irish with sound files they have is impressive. Blas and SRL srl...
Why doesn't RTE have something similar?

Scríobh Asarlaí:


>>Of course there's Turas Teanga as well which is
>>fantastic, especially the DVD which has 8 hours
>>of material.
>>Actually, I'd love to see what you guys think of
>>Turas Teanga (dvd) They have sound scape sections
>>on there with native speakers and I can hardly
>>understand a word of it ;)

The TT DVDs are brilliant entirely. I've hardly touched my TT book & CDs, though. See my comments above about the "communicative" approach - this "course" wouldn't work at all in the U.S. Nice "refresher" for intermediate students to use at home, though.

The DVDs were a great hit in my advanced classes in New Hampshire last year, especially the "Grá Faoi Ghlas" segments. The DVDs are great for encouraging word/phrase recognition (sans book), which is usually a weak point for students here.

A bit pricey. I could have sold a bunch if they were available under US$30, but since they're closer to US$50, only a few of my students bought copies for themselves.

He/she needs to know nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc. and where they go.

Really? Most of the English speakers (from UK, USA or Ireland) who I know don't know much about grammar, even about English one. I've heard that in most English-speaking countries, children aren't taught English grammar, I don't know if it's true. It is in Northern Ireland, I think.

Learning Irish is a nice course, but too difficult for many older learners in the U.S. PII explains things more plainly and in smaller "chunks".

Really? Learning Irish is the first course I've used when I began to learn Irish, when I was 16. I didn't find it was that difficult... And it is very grammatical, so it should please the learners you're talking about...

PII helps them acquire Irish structurally. You may not think highly of it because of your own learning preferences, but it hasn't stayed on the market for 35 years for nothing

I do learn languages through their grammar first as well.


The thing is Lughaidh, I'd say the majority of speakers on the 'now you're talking' BBC/Éamonn Ó Dónaill course are not native speakers.

Sure of that? I know some of those who have been recorded on Now You're Talking, they are native speakers from Gweedore. I met them in Toigh Hiúdaí Bhig, in Bunbeg. Maybe some of them aren't native speakers, I've not listened to it for a long time now. But you know how I am about pronounciation, and I don't remember I had been shocked by bad pronounciations in that course.

Still, I like the course very much even though the Ulster dialect is not my favourite.

I like it 'cause it's the only one for Ulster Irish -- although there are some standard things in it as well, it's a pity. And it isn't comprehensive, not as much as Learning Irish.

Lughaidh - There's a big difference between a 16 year old student and a middle-aged learner. A student for the most part devotes himself only to his studies and his friends. He isn't working to support himself and his family, paying a mortgage, medical bills, schooling, etc. And after a full day's work, instead of nodding off in front of the telly, traveling to evening classes where he tries to pick up a language he has little previous knowledge of.

I see learning Irish as similar to juggling. If you start to juggle with ten tennis balls in the air at a time, you'll be frustrated very quickly and very likely to give up. Most adults learning Irish from scratch having to concentrate on perfect grammar, perfect pronunciation as well as communicative ability all at once find this an impossible task. There are surely those whose learning styles, life and language experience, personality, diligence or motivation might just permit them to juggle all or some of these aspects of language at the same time better than most, without losing hope or giving up. Lughaidh and Peadar, you are surely examples of just such brilliant and lucky individuals that posess these gifts. But you lack the ability to comprehend that some of us are not able to aim at perfection as our primary goal and that condemning people's imperfect sounds serves no purpose whatsoever. Enda Kenny said at a breakfast meeting here with Plé in Dublin that students leave the school systems so frustrated that they throw their Irish books in the corner -- he compared it to the example of a defeated soccer player who missed a crucial shot in an important game and gave up, throwing his equipment away in the corner never to be used again rather than facing his disappointed fans. The perfection you seek so critically is what drives those Irish books to the corner and what makes this man feel Irish should not be compulsory. The attitude that perfection is more important than communicative ability is what kills Irish and people's positive attitudes toward it. Repetition of the sounds on these recordings can bring us to a form of Irish that even if imperfect is understood and can be used communicatively for a purpose. Once that goal has been reached, yes, we can work to improve pronunciation, but condemning people's sounds as wrong does no good at all. As stated eloquently above, when you make a better version we will all gladly learn from you. But until you provide us with these materials in the perfectly pronounced format you suggest that are as freely accessible as what Seamas' crowd has created, you are giving us a prescription for a medicine that is not on the market, don't you see? Progress In Irish is cheap, easy to find and has practice exercises for students to create their own sentences. So, while I'm eagerly waiting for you boys to create a version that will help me perfect my pronunciation, I will remain very satisfied with Ray's sounds whispering pages of progress into my ears . . . .

The beauty of Daltaí na Gaeilge's live events is that people are gentle and accepting of others' efforts to learn. This makes its participants very motivated to learn and become involved in the Irish language community. I'm sure that Gerry Tobin and Cionadh's groups operate in the same way. It's sad to me that so many threads on this site that start out as helpful, informative opportunities to share information and learning strategies are shot down by the professional jugglers who don't need these tools anymore.

Lucy, CailínDoll -- well said.

One item I omitted earlier but which bears mentioning -- in choosing course books, teachers in adult-style classes in the U.S. also need to find something that can take the student in manageable, logical steps week-by-week through their studies, in workloads that aren't impossible for busy working adults. PII and FSII both manage this. Most other popular coursebooks do not.

Lughaidh and Peadar, you are surely examples of just such brilliant and lucky individuals that posess these gifts. But you lack the ability to comprehend that some of us are not able to aim at perfection as our primary goal and that condemning people's imperfect sounds serves no purpose whatsoever.

I never criticized a learner who makes mistakes, it is normal and it is the way everyone learns. Those I do criticize are the people who believe they can teach Irish although they even don't master the basics, that's all. And I only warn learners that some learning materials are not reliable, in order to help them and so that they learn better and faster, without losing time or learning wrong things. Once you've learnt wrong things and repeated them a thousand times, it's very hard to forget and re-learn something else. So I want to warn learners, so that they directly learn the real things.

"Ba mhaith liom do mheas a fháil ar fhuaimniú na gcainteoirí in Buntús Cainte. How would you place their pronunciation(s) in terms of dialect features?

It's been years and years since I heard it, but I remember it pretty well: apparently Southern Conamara speakers pronouncing all their /h/s as is done in the western parts of that area; pronouncing "raibh" with the final slender consonant in some contexts, as in Munster; pronouncing the -uaigh in the pausa form of "chuaigh" as in Mayo — Buntús Cainte /xuэj/; Mayo /φuэj/ — and pronouncing -idh, -aidh, -igh, -aigh as in Mayo and Ulster, namely /i:/ or /i/ according to context:

*Ar ime sé? D'imí.
*Nár ime sé? Níor imí.
*An ndeacha sé abhaile? Chuaigh.
*Nach ndeacha sé abhaile? Ní dheachaí.
*Cá ndeacha sé? Chua sé go Sasana.
*A' ro tus' ann riamh? Ní raibh.

I started with Dillon and Ó Cróinín's "Teach Yourself Irish," but I think a good way for a beginner (or anyone who has pronunciation problems to overcome) to proceed would be to get the complete Buntús Cainte set, listen to each lesson at least once or twice, repeating every utterance exactly as it's heard, before looking at the text at all, and listen again once or twice while following the text, and then study it to learn the words and grammatical patterns and the correspondence between spelling and pronunciation. Once you've done that, tested yourself and made sure you've learned everything in that lesson and learned it well, you go on to the next one, and every lesson teaches you a few more words and another grammatical feature or two, and reinforces your grasp of the pronunciation and everything else. With no bum steers or theoretical explanations.

I've got a copy of First Steps in Irish. There are many Standard things in it that don't exist in Ulster Irish. I'll try anyway. Now, who could put my recordings on his/her website once I've done them? Phouka?

Thanks

Thanks, Peter! When I was teaching Irish I used Buntús Cainte, and described it as "cleaned up Conamara Irish". I've always had a high opinion of it. Apparently the decisions taken on vocabulary, grammar, pronunciation were not random or based on someone's personal preferences entirely, but rather the outcome of some prior research. Do you know anything about that?

Scríobh Lughaidh:

>>I've got a copy of First Steps in Irish. There are
>>many Standard things in it that don't exist in
>>Ulster Irish. I'll try anyway. Now, who could put
>>my recordings on his/her website once I've done them?


Maith an fear, a Lughaidh!
I can make space for them at gaeilge.org (unless someone else wants to host them); we're a bit full at the moment, but are in need of upgrading our hosting arrangements anyway.

Le meas,
Cionaodh

Iontach maith. Grma a Chionaoidh.

Tá mé ’gabháil a thaifeadadh an fhoclóra agus na "model sentences" in achan cheacht. Ar chóir domh na habairtí cleachta a thaifeadadh fosta?

Ar chóir domh tamalt folamh a leigint i ndiaidh achan fhocail, ionas go mbeadh ’n t-am ag an fhoghlaimeoir leis na foclaí a ráidht aríst ina ndiaidh? Ach bheadh na taifeadtaí i bhfad níos mó dá ndéanfainn sin. Cad é do bharúil?

Scríobh Lughaidh:

>>Tá mé ’gabháil a thaifeadadh an fhoclóra
>>agus na "model sentences" in achan cheacht.
>>Ar chóir domh na habairtí cleachta a
>>thaifeadadh fosta?

Más maith leat; is mórán obair é, agus tú féin chomh gnóthach. An féidir leat comhaid scartha a dhéanamh dosna habairtí cleachta? Mar sin, b'féidir leis na foghlaimeoirí a íoslódáil iad ina gceann 's ina gceann más mian leo.


>>Ar chóir domh tamalt folamh a leigint i
>>ndiaidh achan fhocail, ionas go mbeadh ’n
>>t-am ag an fhoghlaimeoir leis na foclaí a
>>ráidht aríst ina ndiaidh?

Ba chóir cúpla soicind dó, measaim.

Ach bheadh na
>>taifeadtaí i bhfad níos mó dá ndéanfainn
>>sin. Cad é do bharúil?

Is fíor duit, ar ndóigh -- an mbeidh an t-am agat? Gheobhaimid an stóras FTP gan dua; cheapaim má dhéanfaidh tú na comhaid scartha, b'féidir le gach duine na comhaid a íoslódáil nuair is gá dóibh.

(Message edited by cionaodh on December 01, 2005)

"...Buntús Cainte...Apparently the decisions taken on vocabulary, grammar, pronunciation were...the outcome of some prior research. Do you know anything about that?..."

No, I don't know the history of it, but obviously they wanted to provide exactly what the title implies, in the most thoroughly effective way while keeping it all neat and concise, and that's what they did. I'd say the pronunciation used in that course amounts to a proposed standard, which on a couple of points shows deference to southern forms heard normally in Munster and as variants in Galway (ro, rabh raibh, thiocfad sé, thiocfat sé thiocfach sé), otherwise mostly a compromise between Western Cois Fhairrge (tinn tínn, funn fúnn, crann cránn, cruaidh crua, tráigh trá, Dhéanfú Máire é Dhéanfach Máire é) on the one hand and Joyce Country and Mayo (ar feadh an tsamhra ar feadh an tsamhraí, d'eighre Seán d'éirí Seán, chua chuaidh Ceannó sé é, nach gceannó? Ceannó sé é, nach gceannóidh?, Feice tú ansin iad, nach bhfeice?, Feice tú ansin iad, nach bhfeicí?) on the other.

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on December 01, 2005)

An féidir leat comhaid scartha a dhéanamh dosna habairtí cleachta? Mar sin, b'féidir leis na foghlaimeoirí a íoslódáil iad ina gceann 's ina gceann más mian leo.

Cha ndéanaim sin, thógfadh sé barraíocht ama...

Is fíor duit, ar ndóigh -- an mbeidh an t-am agat? Gheobhaimid an stóras FTP gan dua;

Níl ’s agam cad é mar a oibreann sin...

A Pheadair,
Maidir leis an taighde ar bunaíodh Buntús Cainte air, fuair mé an méid seo:

quote:

An Roinn Oideachais: Buntús Gaeilge. Réamhthuarascáil ar thaighde teangeolaíochta a rinneadh sa Teanglann, Rinn Mhic Gormáin.
B.Á.C.,1966. 206 pp.
A frequency analysis of Irish words and phrase structures, carried out under the direction of Colmán Ó hUallacháin.

Tá mé i ndiaidh na taifeadtaí uilig a dhéanamh do First Steps in Irish, tá siad mar chomhaid Wave anois.

A Chionaoidh, cad é mar a thiocfadh liom iad a sheoladh chugat? Fríd ríomhphost?

Scríobh Lughaidh:

>>A Chionaoidh, cad é mar a thiocfadh liom
>>iad a sheoladh chugat? Fríd ríomhphost?

Fuair mé stóras inniu, ach is éigin dom é a ullmhú. Nuair a bheidh sé réidh, tabharfaidh mé eolas FTP duit trí r-phoist (tá do sheoladh agam ó liosta eile). Anocht, chomh dócha lena athrach.

The discussion about FSII recordings has been moved here:
http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/14570.html?1133633496

Séamas,
I was only joking about 'I'd do it better' -and I know that most people (myself considered) cannot control every little teeny element, not would I expect it so. My point was that in time, we might get better at this, and then we will need such frames of reference.

But I'm not going to heckly fromt he side lines -I will add something of my own. At the moment I am too busy to do a whole book, with college tests, but I would like to read an instructional text, and provide the palletographic and other resources I have used to get my pronounciation to where it is, without every having spoken to a native. I think I can show that one can do a lot better with instructions than the 'taw mee egg dawsah' school.

Their may be flaws, plus my preference for a more mixed pronounciation of bits of Donegal with Mayo and Conemara, but I think I can provide some directions for leaners, especially for those of a hiberno-english background.

I would prefer to use palletogrpahs and instructions now, but as these are in my back-ups and some need to be redone, I cannot give them now. I can however, do out a sample and leave it open to critique!

It is kind of ridiculous for me to defend my knowledge of pronunciation, so I won't, except to say that everyone has lazy pronunciation sometimes, and if all people want to pay attention to is the slips and imperfections, that's their problem. I would appreciate no further attacks or insults regarding this. I only posted the information here out of a desire to share what we have accomplished. No good deed goes unpunished, mar a deirtear.
Ádh mór leat maidir le do thioscadal féin. Tá súil agam go mbeidh sé gan locht.

quote:

I would appreciate no further attacks or insults regarding this.

I agree.

Séamas, I have found your recordings very helpful, Go raibh maith agat!!