A Chairde
A friend asked me to translate the following quotation. Any help gratefully received!!
GRMA - Dáithí

"Maybe it's bred in the bones, but the sound of the pipes is music to some of us"
Nancy O'Keefe

Tricky.

"Seans go denár dlúth agus inneach é, ach tá ceol i bhfuaim na bpiopaí do roinnt againn"

Aonghus, i don't understand your translation. What is "denár" after "go" ? a verb? Or maybe you meant "Seans gur dár ndlúth agus inneach é". According to Ó Dónaill’s dictionary, i’d rather say "Is féidir go bhfuil sé de dhlúth agus d’inneach ionainn, ach..."

And i don’t understand the second part of your translation: it means "there is music in the sound"... that wouldn’t be said I think. To say "I am a teacher", people say "Múinteoir atá ionam", not "tá múinteoir ionam". Not quite the same.

For that part i’d say "ach is ceol le cuid againn fuaim na bpíob"

Aside from changing "denár" to standard "dár", the rest is really a matter of style. I like Aonghus's version for its compact elegance. Oh, I'd also make the change from "na bpiopaí" to "na bpíob". Ní lia duine ná barúil!

Níor chinntigh mé an rud. Scríobh mé as mo ghoile é!

Aontaím le leasaithe Dennis.

It isn't only a matter of style: there are important mistakes. Nobody would say "Tá múinteoir ionam" for "I am a teacher". It is wrong. If you don’t agree with that, write to Micheál A. Ó Murchú, Ollscoil Uladh, Cúil Raithin.

Second thing: in Aonghus’ translation, he uses "go" instead of "gur". Go is not a form of the copula "is". go+is = gur. You can't use "go" in that sentence.

Ár is followed by urú, and I think you’d have to repeat it before "inneach".

Is it possible to say "is dár ndlúth agus dár n-inneach é" (which follows the pattern of your sentence) ? It isn't what Ó Dónaill's dictionary gives, anyway. This dictionary doesn't mention the possibility to use "is" with that idiom, only "tá".

Aonghus' sentence is shorter than mine, but if you have to make a sentence wrong in order to make it shorter, forget about it. ;-)

Ciallaíonn "tá ceol i bhfuaim na bpíob" rud eile seachas "Tá muinteoir ionam"


"tá ceol i bhfuaim na bpíob" -> is féidir le daoine airithe ceol a bhraith ann, rud a fhreagraíonn do chiall an Bhéarla a thug Daithí.

OK, there are other errors: "go" should be "gur" and "dár" should be followed by eclipsis, as you say: "dár ndlúth". I disagree with you on the rest. The phrase "dlúth agus inneach" can be easily taken as a meaningful unit, with no repetition of the possessive pronoun needed. Attacking "tá ceol i bhfuaim na bpíob" by comparison with the mistaken idiom "tá múinteoir ionam" is a red herring. The appropriate models of comparisons are to be found in FGB s.v. "i2" 2.a (of inherent quality, property): tá éirim an cheoil sa ghasúr sin, etc.

The difference between Aonghus and you is that he carelessly gets some of the fiddly little bits wrong, while you rarely do. But his Irish flows so naturally and is so appropriate that it's easy to not even notice those fiddly bits.

Sampla eile:
'Tá na nótaí agat, ceart go leor, ach ní haon mhaith é sin. Caithfidh tú an ceol a bheith i do chuisle.'

http://www.cic.ie/cgi-bin/newsitem.asp?idarticle=106

Attacking "tá ceol i bhfuaim na bpíob" by comparison with the mistaken idiom "tá múinteoir ionam" is a red herring. The appropriate models of comparisons are to be found in FGB s.v. "i2" 2.a (of inherent quality, property): tá éirim an cheoil sa ghasúr sin, etc.

It isn't the same kind of sentence as "tá éirim an cheoil sa ghasúr sin" nor "Caithfidh tú an ceol a bheith i do chuisle", to my mind. "There is music in the sound of the pipes" is nonsense. And anyway, the sound of the pipes IS music. éirim an cheoil ISN’T an gasúr, an ceol ISN’T do chuisle. See what i mean? For me, "tá ceol i bhfuaim na bpíob" is a copula-like sentence. The two other examples are not at all.


The difference between Aonghus and you is that he carelessly gets some of the fiddly little bits wrong, while you rarely do. But his Irish flows so naturally and is so appropriate that it's easy to not even notice those fiddly bits.


So naturally? Bhuel is fearr liom fanacht 'mo thost, nó... And basic grammar isn't "little bits", gabh mo leithscéal.

(Message edited by lughaidh on November 16, 2005)

quote:

"There is music in the sound of the pipes" is nonsense. And anyway, the sound of the pipes IS music.

The point of the quote Daithí gave is that some people do not appreciate the sound of pipe music. For them, the sound of the pipes is just noise.
That is what I am trying to translate. And therefore it is exactly the same as the other examples.

quote:

"There is music in the sound of the pipes" is nonsense.

I'm here, as a long-time literate English-speaker, to tell you it's not nonsense at all. It's a perfectly acceptable and reasonably common metaphorical mode of expression. Forget your Cartesian heritage here. Max, you're a linguist with good English. What do you think?

quote:

For me, "tá ceol i bhfuaim na bpíob" is a copula-like sentence.

I suppose it can be anything you want for you. For the rest of us, it's not. I suggest you ask your Mr. Ó Murchú for his opinion.

How come you addressed Max. . . I don't see any posts by him?

Go raibh míle maith agaibh go leir! Agus gabhigi mo leithscéal!Didn't mean to cause such controversy!

Now to pore over the translations and see if I can understand the subtleties enough to figure out the answer.... ;¬)

Dáithí

A Dháithí,

Go with what Aonghus gave you originally with the two minor corrections offered by Dennis. Let the academics banter on ad nauseum about all that other garbage.

Aonghus is a native speaker so his version is going to sound more agreeable to other native speakers. Did he make a few grammar mistakes...sure. But then again, don't we all make one or two in our own native langauges from time to time?

This side-bar bantering and bickering is exactly why Irish is in the state it's in today. The fun has been sucked out of it at every turn and once the fun is gone the learning stops. At least...it has for me.

Le meas,

James

But then again, don't we all make one or two in our own native langauges from time to time?

The problem is, that it happens to Aonghus more often than "from time to time".

Using "go" instead of "gur" as form of the copula is a mistake that no Gaeltacht speaker would do. Same thing about the eclipsis on dlúth, missing in his translation.

Aonghus is a native speaker

So am I, then.

so his version is going to sound more agreeable to other native speakers.

Yeah, to other learners who make so many mistakes that they don't see the mistakes the other people make!

Tá mé sna trithí a’ léamh mur dteachtaireacht. Chan fhaca mé ’riamh daoiní gomh dall libh.

Think what you want, Lughaidh, but quit your damn sniping. This is utterly ridiculous.

Searlas

B'fhearr do chabhair ná do chealg a Lughaidh.
Is trua go scaoileann tú an rois beachtaithe fút is tharat abhus, ar beagán údair go minic.
Níor mhiste an ceart a roinnt le daoine ar shuíomh den chineál seo sa dóigh go dtiocfadh le duine ar bith bualadh isteach le ceist, an freagra a fháil go deas fáilí luath nó mall agus go n-imeodh sé socair sách.

Ina áit sin, an té a ardós ceist agus tú ar guardal, b'fhéidir go n-imeodh sé leis an tuairim gur fhág sé cogadh craorag ina dhiaidh as mioncheist a chur.

Cibéard tá ag dó na geirbe agat, b'fhearrde an t-oide Gaeilge agus b'fhearrde an duine thú dá uireasa. Tá súileas agam go socróidh tú leis na daoine gnaíúla eile i do thimpeall anseo.
B'fhearr le cách do chabhair.

The bottom line is...

If I want to be understood and have fun with Irish, I'm going to lean on Aonghus.

If I want to write a technical paper, prepare for an academic dissertation, be drilled, beaten and otherwise berated...well...then I'll hang out with Lughaidh.

It's just not worth it if I can't have fun and learn at the same time.

Sorry.

If I want to be understood (...)I'm going to lean on Aonghus

What do you mean by "to be understood" ?


B'fhearr le cách do chabhair.

Fá choinne cuidiú a thabhairt do na foghlaimeoirí a thigim agus a scríobhaim anseo, a chara. Fá choinne cuidiú a thabhairt a cheartaim meancógaí na ndaoiní anseo. Is iomaí foghlaimeoir a chreidfeadh gur féidir muinín a bheith aige in achan duine dá scríobhann i nGaeilg anseo, muna gceartóchainn meancógaí ó am go chéile. Cad é ’n Ghaeilg a fhoghlaimeochas siad má tchíonn siad meancógaí in achan teachtaireacht i ngan fhios daofa? Foghlaimeochaidh siad Gaeilg mhícheart agus ina dhiaidh sin beidh siad frí’ a chéile, siocair nach dtuigfidh siad rud ar bith a thuilleadh sa ghramadach siocair go mbristear na rialacha is bunúsaí i dtólamh.

Cé a mbeadh muinín ag na foghlaimeoirí as, má ghníonn achan duine (nó chóir a bheith) meancógaí in achan áit ar an fhóram seo agus ar an idirlíon go léir? Na daoiní a deireas gur cainteoirí dúchais iad, ghníonn siad meancógaí! Na múinteoirí Gaeilge ar fud na tíre, cha bhíonn ach Gaeilg bhriste ag a’ mhórchuid acu! Cad é mar a thiocfadh leis na foghlaimeoirí a fhios a bheith acu cé aige a bhfuil Gaeilg chruinn? Má inseann achan duine bréag fána chaighdeán sa Ghaeilg, nó gur cainteoir dúchais é nó mar sin.

An foghlaimeoir a thig isteach anseo creidfidh sé go bhfuil Gaeilg chruinn ag Aonghus siocair go n-abrann sé i dtólamh gur cainteoir dúchais é. Agus bíonn meancógaí aige in achan teachtaireacht dá scríobhann sé nó chóir a bheith! Ar chóir do na foghlaimeoirí muinín a bheith acu as a scríobhann sé sin, agus foghlaim gur ceart "gurbh" a úsáid roimhe chonsan agus gur focal baininscneach "pointe" agus nach bhfuil urú ar bith i ndiaidh "ár" agus araile ?

Is féidir gur cheart abairt bheag ineacht a scríobh mar shíniú nó ins an phróifíl, fá dtaobh don chaighdeán atá ag achan duine srl, mar shampla:
Aonghus > tógadh le Gaeilge i mBÁC mé, ach amanna déanaim meancóga gramadaí agus litrithe, ach tá tréan focal agam.

Lughaidh > thoisigh mé a dh’fhoghlaim Gaeilge deich mbliana ó shoin; cha ndéanaim meancógaí gramadaí ná litrithe am ar bith, nó chóir a bheith, ach tá daoiní eile anseo a bhfuil níos mó cor cainte agus foclóra acu.

srl. B’fhearr do na foghlaimeoirí é.

quote:

How come you addressed Max. . . I don't see any posts by him?

Is duine den chomhluadar é. Tá sa chúinne ag éisteacht, gan dabht.

Lads Lads Lads Stopaigí! How come there's bitchyness goin on without me here.. I'm the bitch queen! lol..

Seriously behave!
"Using "go" instead of "gur" as form of the copula is a mistake that no Gaeltacht speaker would do"
Wise up led thoil! Tá Gaeilge níos fearr ag Gaeilgeoirí taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht..

It's time to embrace the superior race.. ;)

Come on bring on the b-tchy replies!!
Brea liom é!

>>There is music in the sound of the pipes
>>Max, you're a linguist with good English. What do you think?

I don't see where the problem is. It is certainly not grammatical (I am talking about the sentence in Irish), although I am not the best juge (by far). And if it's not grammatical then it must be semantic... which is in fact a matter of taste...(and not a matter of "linguistic correctness or not")
I find the sentence quite poetical. (cf. "the poetical function of language", Roman Jakobson talks about it.) Poetry wouldn't exist if we couldn't produce sentences which may sound "nonsensical" to others...


>>How come you addressed Max. . . I don't see any posts by him?

????????????????????????????????????

Lughaidh has, in another thread, named himself fear na gramadaí. And we all know that he is Mr. Gaeilge Uladh, and apparently a great lover of dialects in general. Too bad that he is so very quick to condemn as incorrect the features of other dialects that he is not familiar with. He wrote:

quote:

in Aonghus’ translation, he uses "go" instead of "gur". Go is not a form of the copula "is". go+is = gur. You can't use "go" in that sentence.

Aonghus has BÁC Irish, which is heavily influenced by the Munster dialect. So I just had a look at An Teanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhne where I find (lch. 63):

Claoninsint dhearfach Go (uaireanta gur)... Is dócha go deacair é a dhéanamh; Déarhainn go breá leó é; Is dó liom go múinteoir é

Clear? "Go" is a form of the copula.

Lughaidh also attacked "denár" as incorrect:

quote:

What is "denár" after "go" ? a verb? Or maybe you meant "Seans gur dár...

Interestingly, the same book points out (lch. 26) that the prepositions "de" and "do" followed by the possessive adjective have two possible outcomes, either "dá chéile" or "dona chéile".

That knocks down another one of Lughaidh's gripes.

Then there was Aonghus's use of "na bpíopaí" rather than the dictionary form "na bpíob". But in fact there is a good deal of dialectical variation in the forms of the words meaning "musical pipe" and "smoking pipe". These are "píb" and "píopa" respectively in FGB. But FGB also acknowledges that "píopa, pl. píopaí" is a variant of "píb".

So looking back on Aonghus's original version, we see:

"Seans go denár dlúth agus inneach é, ach tá ceol i bhfuaim na bpiopaí do roinnt againn."

The only actual "grammatical" faults are dropping the n- following "ár", and leaving a fada off the first vowel in "píopaí". I make worse errors in writing e-mails all the time, in both languages.

...actually Nanncy was a central heating engineer and was referring to the pipes leading from the boiler.








Ok, Ok níl mé ach ag magadh!
Just trying to lighten things up.
Dáithí

GRMagat Dennis as an gcuntas soiléir sin.

Mar a dúras ar ball a Lughaidh:
'... an freagra a fháil go deas fáilí luath nó mall agus go n-imeodh sé socair sách.'

Nárbh fhearr ligean do chúrsaí iad féin a shocrú gan a ghabháil sa bhile buaice i gcéaduair ar gach séimhiú is urú? Ní theastódh ach an cheist a chur, is a hathchur b'fhéidir, agus léireofaí achan seort leis an gcur is cúiteamh.

'Is minic an cú mall sona' deirtear.
Bímis sona lena chéile. Is é is fearr.

Scríobh Dáithí:

quote:

Ok, Ok níl mé ach ag magadh!

Cad is píopa (píobán, píb) ann? Poll fada. N.B. Má tá trastomhas inmheánach an phíopa níos mó ná an trastomhas forimeallach, beidh an poll ar an taobh amuigh.

Is fearr liom comhrá na rí-rá...

Le meas,
Yer man Anonymous

Bhuel mar sin bí páirteach sa chomhrá agus an bitchyness más mian leat ;)

quote:

sa chomhrá agus an bitchyness

Bitseáil? Sinne?? Ag cur agus ag cúiteamh ar chúrsaí an tsaoil agus na teangan atáimid, go mín macánta... mura miste leat! ;-)

Oh mar sin is ormsa féin atá an locht! :)

"If I want to be understood (...)I'm going to lean on Aonghus

What do you mean by "to be understood" ?"

He means (if I may take the liberty of answering for someone else) that Aonghus' Irish is the more perfunctary for purposes de communications, so to speak, rather than the more honed Irish of Lughaidh.

It means one is making an exemplar out of a style considered to be learner in origin by Lughaidh

Robert, foghlaim Béarla i gceart sula dtosnaíonn tú ag caitheamh anuas ar ghaeilge dhaoine eile.

>He means (if I may take the liberty of answering for someone else) that Aonghus' Irish is the more perfunctary for purposes de communications, so to speak, rather than the more honed Irish of Lughaidh.

Ins a’ Ghaeltacht domh agus le Gaeilgeoirí líofa eile níor labhair mé ariamh ach Gaeilg, agus thuigtí i gcónaí mé. Chan fheicim cad chuige a mbeadh Aonghus níos fusa le tuigbheáil ná mé féin -- ina theannta sin tá mé cinnte go bhfuil mo chuid fuaimníochta níos cruinne ná a chuid féin.

quote:

tá mé cinnte go bhfuil mo chuid fuaimníochta níos cruinne ná a chuid féin

Níl fianaise ar bith agat do sin.

Is chuige seo a bhí James - go mbíonn an leagan a thugaimse níos nadúrtha/simplí go minic, in ainneoin easpa cruinneas, ná do leagan. D'admhaigh tú fhéin é sin.

"Robert, foghlaim Béarla i gceart sula dtosnaíonn tú ag caitheamh anuas ar ghaeilge dhaoine eile."

Here listen! I was nto making remark on your faculty, but simple stating my interpretation of the position implied by James given how I realised his sentance.

Anus is considered more approachable than Lughaidh, and so some people would then extend that to preferring his irish over another. As for my anglish, I am a natife and so does do do-be doing what I wants with it.

Ó. Le scoil Humpty Dumpty a bhaineann tú, mar sin:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less." -- Through the Looking-Glass

Maith thú, a hAonghus!

Clap Clap,
build up a straw man and knock him down!

tá mé cinnte go bhfuil mo chuid fuaimníochta níos cruinne ná a chuid féin

Níl fianaise ar bith agat do sin.

Tá, do chuid meancóg litrithe. Fianaise é go meascann tú cuid mhaith fuaimeann lena chéile.

Is chuige seo a bhí James - go mbíonn an leagan a thugaimse níos nadúrtha/simplí go minic, in ainneoin easpa cruinneas, ná do leagan. D'admhaigh tú fhéin é sin.

Ní dóigh liom gur bhreac mé a leithéid ariamh. Scríobh mé go rabh níos mó focal agat, agus níos mó cor cainte, sin a’ méid.

"Maybe it's bred in the bones, but the sound of the pipes is music to some of us"

B'fhéidir go bhfuil an dúchas sna cnámha , ach is ceol do chuid againn fuaim na bpíopaí
píobaire = duine a chasann an t-uirlis

(Message edited by mickrua on November 23, 2005)

Dúirt Lughaidh:

quote:

tá mé cinnte go bhfuil mo chuid fuaimníochta níos cruinne ná a chuid féin

Agus is dócha go bhfuil do bhod níos mó freisin. ;-) You the man, L-Dog, you the man.

Agus is dócha go bhfuil do bhod níos mó freisin.

Cá haois tú a Dhennis? Nach bhfuil tú ceithre bliana déag? Bhfuil tú cinnte gur múinteoir thú? Má fuair tusa jab mar mhúinteoir is furast a gheobhas mise féin cionn. Dea-scéal.

Lughaidh:
Tá mo chuid gramadaí Gearmáiníse níos measa ná mo chuid gramadaí gaeilge - is mó botún a ghním ann. Ach níl sin le chlos ar mo bhlas - is minic a cheap Gearmánach gurbh Gearmánach mise.

Tá, mar a dúirt mé leat, fir gaeltachta a chuala ag caint mé den tuairim go bhfuil blas na Mumhan agam.

Níor chuala tusa - go bhfios dom - ag caint riamh mé.
Mar sin, níl de fhianaise agat ach do thuairim. Ní fianaise atá ansin.

Tá, mar a dúirt mé leat, fir gaeltachta a chuala ag caint mé den tuairim go bhfuil blas na Mumhan agam.

Ní hionann sílstean go bhfuil blas Muimhneach agat agus sílstean gur cainteoir dúchais tú. ’S iomaí duine as Béal Feirste a chuala mé a rabh blas Conallach acu agus ba léir nach cainteoirí dúchais iad ar chor ar bith ag an am chéarna -- blas Conallach agus blas Béarla acu in éineacht.

Tá mo chuid gramadaí Gearmáiníse níos measa ná mo chuid gramadaí gaeilge - is mó botún a ghním ann. Ach níl sin le chlos ar mo bhlas - is minic a cheap Gearmánach gurbh Gearmánach mise.

Ní fianaise é sin ar chor ar bith ach an oiread. Agus ní ar mheancógaí gramadaí a bhí mé ’thrácht ach ar mheancógaí litrithe. Muna ndéanann tú duifear ar bith sa litriú eadar r caol agus r leathan, is cinnte go ndéanann tú ’n mheancóg sin de dheasca nach ndéanann tú duifear ar bith eatarthu ins a’ chaint.

Rud céarna maidir le c agus ch. Scríobh tú thuas

"níl sin le chlos ar mo bhlas "

An abrann tú "le chlos" ? Meancóg ghramadaí nó meancóg fhuaimníochta --> litrithe? le clos a bheadh ceart. Ní hionann /x/ agus /k/ in mo chaintse féin.

’Nois ba bhreá liom tú a chluinstin ’s tú ’labhairt i nGaeilg go nádúrtha (sin le ráidht, gan a bheith ag léamh rud ineacht).

quote:

Nach bhfuil tú ceithre bliana déag?

Tá mé cúig i mo chroí istigh.

I can't weed through all the Irish. I just don't have enough proficiency to comprehend it and I don't have the time to translate all that has been written, sentence by sentence.

My point was this:

Aonghus is a native speaker of Irish. His grammar may be off, from time to time, but his level of practical proficiency is more authentic.

Lughaidh is an academically gifted individual and I would not discount his linguistic abilities in the least. However, I would not consider him the best source for colloquial, day to day, Irish.

Mar sampla:

In my younger days, I was required to speak Spanish in my job. A part of the process used to determine my suitability for certain "jobs" was a writing and listening comprehension exam. We had a number of native speakers in our organization and I routinely out-scored them on these tests. However, I was never as proficient as they were at working with the locals. They were much more adept at slang, at picking up nuances of speech...essentially, they were better communicators with the "man on the street". I did fine in an official setting or when dealing with business owners and educated people but had far more difficulty with the average street encounter.

Hope this clears up my position.

Le meas,

James

Aonghus is a native speaker of Irish. His grammar may be off, from time to time, but his level of practical proficiency is more authentic.

Sure about that? he has learnt with his parents in Dublin, I have learnt in Donegal Gaeltacht. Now, what is more authentic for you?

Lughaidh is an academically gifted individual and I would not discount his linguistic abilities in the least. However, I would not consider him the best source for colloquial, day to day, Irish.

I would not consider someone who makes very basic mistakes the best source for Irish at all (even colloquial). Where do you think I've learnt my Irish? Why Aonghus' Dublin Irish would be more colloquial than my Northwestern Donegal Gaeltacht Irish?

They were much more adept at slang, at picking up nuances of speech...essentially, they were better communicators with the "man on the street".

Yeah. Not sure one can learn such things without living in the Gaeltacht with Gaeltacht speakers. That's the kind of thing learners, and Dublin speakers (except if they've been raised up in the Gaeltacht among Gaeltacht speakers) don't get.

You're right Lughaidh....you're the best...you're the only authentic source....I should emulate you....

Get over yourself, my friend....

Pejorative -- that's the word!

It is the absence of a pejorative tone or attitude in the teacher that encourages the learner to continue to seek aid. It's the presence of a pejorative element, I think, that herein elicits complaints both overt and covert.

People just don't learn well when the atmosphere is one of disparagement.

Personally I find the system of registering and displaying our usernames and sometimes our photos very helpful. I can tell at a glance which post is likely to contain encouragement and which is not.

Believe it or not, the survival of this language is far more dependent upon encouragment than upon perfectionism.

This thread will be closed at 9:00 PM EST, 2:00 AM GST.

Caoimhín

Quote: "Why Aonghus' Dublin Irish would be more colloquial than my Northwestern Donegal Gaeltacht Irish?"


This is a sentence fragment and consequently it is grammatically unacceptable. Either the auxillary verb "would" is misplaced and should follow the interrogative pronoun "why;" or the use of "why" to introduce the clause which follows renders the clause dependent. In the latter case, an independent clause is necessary to complete the thought.

I know this to be true because I hold several advanced university degrees in English, and I seldom make mistakes.

However, I do manage to alienate many students with this kind of talk.

Cuireann tú argóint mhaith i gcion a Phádraig agus aontaím leat .
Lughaidh, lig do scíth a dhuine. Ní comórtas é.