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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (November-December) » Archive through November 21, 2005 » A Modest Proposal « Previous Next »

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 590
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 01:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Whereas: Irish has been having increasing problems getting 'ch' pronounced correctly, as witnessed by:
(a) slender 'ch' is pronounced /ç/ in initial position only in all dialects (except Scottish Gaelic, as far as I know), otherwise as /h/;
(b) broad 'ch' is likewise often reduced to /h/ in non-initial position in Donegal Irish (and 'cht' is mangled into 'rt'!);
(c) non-initial 'ch' often comes out of the mouths of Galltacht speakers as /k/;

Whereas: Old Irish had the sounds /d/ and /q/, the sounds of English 'th' in "then" and "thing" respectively;

Whereas: essentially all Irish-speakers are bilingual in English;

Be it resolved to abandon the old pronunciation of 'ch' and to restore the even older English-friendly pronunciations of 'th' and 'dh'

Result: no net loss!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 996
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 04:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

(b) broad 'ch' is likewise often reduced to /h/ in non-initial position in Donegal Irish (and 'cht' is mangled into 'rt'!);

-cht is pronounced like an unvoiced -rt only in Northwestern Donegal, and especially in Gweedore parish (and maybe Tory and parts of Cloghaneely parish). In Rann na Feirste they say /xt/. In the East, in Rosguill, they have lost the /x/ and there's a compensatory lengthening of the precedent vowel: bocht > bót /bo:t/.

Changing /xt/ to /rt/ is a normal process: the /r/ sound is pronounced in a closer place (alveols) to the /t/ (teeth), than the /x/ (soft palate area). In Scottish Gaelic, the /x/ has retained its original place, but the /t/ has been transformed to /k/. Scottish bochd /boxk/ = poor.

Most English speaking learners don't manage to pronounce /x/ because the sound doesn't exist in Modern English, so they replace it by the closest English sound: /k/.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2475
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 03:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Lughaidh,

aor a bhíonn i gceist nuair a déantar "Modest Proposal" - tá an teideal bunaithe ar aiste de chuid Swift (http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/Courses/95c/Texts/modest.html)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1002
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 04:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Brón orm, níor thuig mé go rabh Dennis ag magadh, mar nach rabh eolas agam ar an téacs sin le Swift. Cha dtearr mé staidéar ar litríocht a’ Bhéarla.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Liz
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Username: Liz

Post Number: 31
Registered: 07-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 05:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dúirt Lughaidh:
"Brón orm, níor thuig mé go rabh Dennis ag magadh, mar nach rabh eolas agam ar an téacs sin le Swift..."

Mar an gcéanna agamsa é. Ní dhearnadh mé staidéar ar Swift riamh.

Ar dtús, cheap mé go raibh Dennis ag éirí bog sa cheann.

Ní baol dó.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2476
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 04:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní gá brón a bheith ort, a Lughaidh. Ní thuig le achan duine eolas a bheith aige ar achan rud. Sin a fáth gur thug mé nod dhuit.

(Rinne mé fhéin an botún céanna tamall ó shin nuair a bhí duine éigin ag moladh - mar modest proposal - torramh don ghaeilge)

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 80.93.5.45
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 09:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Newsflash!

Why is /x/ and /x'/ been lost? Why is /R/ /r'/ /R'/ /r'/ going?

Because irish is disappearing and is at the same satge as manx 120 years ago

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1005
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 11:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>Why is /x/ and /x'/ been lost? Why is /R/ /r'/ /R'/ /r'/ going?

Cad é ’tá tú ’ráidht?

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Chris_c
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Username: Chris_c

Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 11:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Quote:
***Newsflash!

Why is /x/ and /x'/ been lost? Why is /R/ /r'/ /R'/ /r'/ going?

Because irish is disappearing and is at the same satge as manx 120 years ago***


Well, it's clear what you're are implying... and of course why (based on past posts).

Here is something to consider:

Why would an English speaker of today not even vaguely understand written or spoken Old English? Why have many of the features present in Old English disappeared in our modern version of English?

Because of these changes, can you then conclude, Robert, that English has gone the way of Manx? Was Old English of the early middle ages in the same 'satge' (sic) as Manx 120 years ago?

My vote would be 'no.' I would say it's because ALL languages evolve over time. Is your original premise an example of flawed logic? My vote would be 'yes.'

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1006
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 01:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>i{Why is /x/ and /x'/ been lost? Why is /R/ /r'/ /R'/ /r'/ going?}

Where x and x' have been lost? Not in the Gaeltacht, at least.

R r R' r' are still alive in older speaker's Irish in Donegal, and as far as I know, not elsewhere. So... what do you mean?

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Dalta (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 143.239.7.1
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 02:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An bhfuil R' r' R r marbh i measc na nóg, ámh? An mbeidh an fuaim 'ch' marbh i gceann tamaill?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1007
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>An bhfuil R' r' R r marbh i measc na nóg, ámh?

Is dóigh liom féin nach bhfuil ach /r’/ agus /r/ i gcaint na ndaoiní óga ins a’ Ghaeltacht.

An mbeidh an fuaim 'ch' marbh i gceann tamaill?

Má éagann Gaeilg na Gaeltachta agus muna mbíonn fágtha ach Béarlóirí a d’fhoghlaim Gaeilg taobh amuigh don Ghaeltacht, is féidir go gcaillfear an fhuaim sin -- nó na fuaimeannaí sin, siocair go bhfuil dhá "ch" ann (caol agus leathan).

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 404
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 07:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Whereas: Dennis says,
quote:


a) slender 'ch' is pronounced /ç/ in initial position only in all dialects (except Scottish Gaelic, as far as I know), otherwise as /h/

Therefore, I recommend knowing further:

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-6.html

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-9.html

http://www.rte.ie/rnag/parlaimintmhaigheo.html

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1009
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 10:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>a) slender 'ch' is pronounced /ç/ in initial position only in all dialects (except Scottish Gaelic, as far as I know), otherwise as /h/

Where have you read that ? In Donegal at least, slender -ch is always pronounced [ç]: oíche, dúiche, cluiche... etc. I think it's the same in most dialects. Same thing with most Scottish dialects (they often have -ich at the end of verbs etc).

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 598
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 11:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níor léigh mé é. Chuala mé é, i nGaeilge Chonamara agus i nGaeilge na Mumhan. Ach beidh orm é sin a fháil sna leabhair anois. Ach... am dinnéir anois! First things first!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 599
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 01:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK, seo a bhfuair mé:

Teach Yourself Irish (an chéad TYG le Dillon & Ó Cróinín, a chuireann síos ar Ghaeilge na Mumhan):

oíche [i:hi]

Learning Irish (Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge):

oíche /i:/, móide an méid seo ó Appendix I: "ch (slender) /x'/ silent when in the middle or at the end of a word"

An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Chonamara:

"ch caol = /x'/ ag tús focail: cheap, chreid. Ach /h/ in cheana. /h/ i lár focail go hiondúil: dícheall, droichead. Ach /x'/ uaireanta in fiche, oíche.

Stair na Gaeilge:

Gaeilge Chonnacht

"Is gnách é [ch caol] a chailleadh freisin i lár focal i ndeisceart Chonamara agus cuirtear fad dá réir le guta gearr aiceanta a thagann roimhe, m.sh. cloiche /klo:/, fichead /fi:d/. In iarthar agus i dtuaisceart Chonamara i gnách ch caol idir gutaí a choinneáil mar /h/, m.sh. cloiche /kloh@/. Mar /x'/ a deirtear i Maigh Eo é, m.sh. cloiche /klox'@/."

Gaeilge Uladh

"Is minic /h/ do (-)ch- : m.sh., chuaigh [hui] ([xui] agus [fui] fosta), brochán [brahan], fiche [f'ih'@] nó [f'ix'@]."

Déarfainn ón méid sin go bhfuil "ch" roinnt wobbly ar fud mhórchuid an Oileáin, fiú i gCúige Uladh más fíor don mhéidín thuas.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 405
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 01:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"In Donegal at least, slender -ch is always pronounced [ç]"

Always except when it's not (quite): dreihэd, φaihiL'aχ, etc.

"oíche, dúiche, cluiche... etc. I think it's the same in most dialects."

Munster:
i:hэ (= i:h'э = i:hi)
kLihэ
φ'ihэd
fichead
(dúthaigh, dúthaí N/A)

Aran Islands and Cois Fhairrge:
i: / i:hэ / i:çэ
kliφ'э / klif'э / kLiφ'э / kLif'э
φ'i:d
/ f'i:d / φ'ihэd / f'ihэd / φ'içэd / f'içэd

Tourmakeady:
i:çэ
kliφ
'э / klif'э
φ'içэd
/ f'içэd
du:çэ
dúiche

Achill and Erris:
i:çэ
kliφ
'э
φ'içэd
du:çэ


(Message edited by Peadar_Ó_Gríofa on November 15, 2005)

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 406
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 01:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"…Erris:…kliφ'э"

Also kluφ'э.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1010
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 07:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gaeilge Uladh

"Is minic /h/ do (-)ch- : m.sh., chuaigh [hui] ([xui] agus [fui] fosta), brochán [brahan], fiche [f'ih'@] nó [f'ix'@]."


slender h in "fiche"? I didn't know there were slender h's in Irish ! x' = ç, so I am right.


"In Donegal at least, slender -ch is always pronounced [ç]"

Always except when it's not (quite): dreihэd, φaihiL'aχ, etc.


Of course there is a handful of exceptions. But not many. And dreihэd, φaihiL'aχ aren't pronounced like that in all Donegal.

"oíche, dúiche, cluiche... etc. I think it's the same in most dialects."

You can find ç as possible realisation of slender ch for most examples you've mentioned - except Munster, at least in the dialect you've mentioned (not sure ç can't be found in other places of Munster).

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 80.93.5.45
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 09:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh,
I meant that you even seen the retroflex r on TG4 in middle aged speakers and I have heard it on RnaG so I suspect that retroflex r may become more than just an allophone in future.

Chris_c,
so your a 'logic boy' eh? To me the strenght of logic rests on the erronous assumption thathuman consciosuness can hold meaningful facsimiles of the world within it, which I dont believe. Logic mean little to me if it is used to 'prove' something I never intended to say

A lot of Americans sue the line of 'its evolving, so why try to stop it?'. Well it is not evolving when lazy friggers come along and add in English phonetics, grammar, idiom, and semantics and then ignore the native speakers and turn about and say "we outnumber you, so our dialect is the standard". So irish is turning into a neoHiberno-English

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 80.93.5.45
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 09:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ok, next time I will write slowly and with proper spelling so as not to sound off kilter

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Dearg
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Username: Dearg

Post Number: 89
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 09:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Robert,

Doesn't every language have "issues" like this?

I'm no linguist, but English has a lot of "problems", but I've come to accept that they're not "problems" but just evolution of the language.

It used to irritate me to no end that people couldn't say or hear the difference between "Mary", "marry", and "merry" in English (to me they sound very different and I pronounce them differently).

But after reading "The Power of Babel", I've just come to accept that languages change over time, and different dialects sound different. Once a change has happened, it's basically impossible to go back.

Think about English before the Norman invasion versus English afterwards. I mean, wasn't it terribly French-ified? Did that 'destroy' the language?

The Anglification of Irish will just be another chapter in its history. It shows how Irish fits into the world--just as modern English shows the historical influence of the Norman invasion.

Again, I'm not a linguist, just a layman explaining things how I understand them. Thanks.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1011
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 10:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I meant that you even seen the retroflex r on TG4 in middle aged speakers

Native speakers? I haven't heard any native speaker pronouncing all the r's as in English, except a 30-years-old man from Coolea (Co. Cork).

and I have heard it on RnaG

Many people who are heard on RnaG aren't native speakers...

so I suspect that retroflex r may become more than just an allophone in future.

Maybe, but I hope it won't happen: the English r is ugly to my ears, and make spoken Irish quite unclear. Alveolar Irish r's are much clearer for me. Sometimes, English r's aren't pronounced at all, they just make the previous vowel longer. I'm afraid Irish would become hard to understand if such things often happen.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 80.93.5.45
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 11:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh,
some of the rs a s retroflex, and only in initial position and sometimes

"Many people who are heard on RnaG aren't native speakers... "

I know and can discern the difference

Yes, the retroflex r is odd i nGaeilge,
nuair a cloisim, bris sé mo chluasa!

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 408
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 06:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"You can find ç as possible realisation of slender ch for most examples you've mentioned - except Munster, at least in the dialect you've mentioned (not sure ç can't be found in other places of Munster)."

I'm sure it occurs medially in some words sometimes in all the dialects, even if the speakers aren't aware of it. In "The Irish of Ring, Co. Waterford," two phonemes /h/ and /h'/ are described, and the fact that the two are treated as one phoneme /h/ in studies of West Munster Irish may not really indicate a difference between Waterford pronunciation and that of Cork or Kerry in this regard. The transcription of oidhche as /i:hi/ means that in West Munster it's pronounced as if it were written *oíthe (as opposed to *aíotha), and if the front of the tongue is sometimes raised just a little higher the result is [i:çэ].

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1013
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 04:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh,
some of the rs a s retroflex, and only in initial position and sometimes


I know, in words like tuirseach, doirse etc. Retroflex r ans retroflex s. That is normal and very common in Scottish Gaelic. Now, retroflex r's when they stand alone is odd and wasn't to be found in traditional Irish at all.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 80.93.5.45
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 06:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well even check out Aoife Ni Thuirsig ar TG4 when over voiced the pre-ads for Ros na Rún, the rs are retroflex.

That lad Padraig, is it, ar an gclár is ainm comhrá who used retroflexes alone too, I swear he is, but I'll tune in the next time to be sure

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 559
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 07:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

""we outnumber you, so our dialect is the standard". So irish is turning into a neoHiberno-English"

Not quite as simple as all that, but any language *is* what is actually in use, on the ground at any given moment. Books at best offer a snapshot of the way the language was at one point in time, at worst the way one group or another *wanted* the language to be any any given point. All languages covering any appreciable geographic area have dialects, which differ from each other. The notions of 'elite' or 'more worthy' dialect pronunciations are used to drive wedges based on class and should have gone the way of support for proscriptive grammar.

And I see someone else has finally mentioned norman french and old english. If what Irish is evolving into is 'neo-hiberno-english' then there is no english, and we should call the lanugage 'neo-anglo-french' or 'neo-germani-french'. French had far more impact on english, than I believe that english will have had on Irish at the end of the day.

Irish resisted, for the most part, assimilation of english elements over centuries, to her detriment. Something's gotta give (to borrow a phrase) and Irish either die out or 'snap' and play catch-up as the floodgates open and a single generation absorb more english than had been done in all the centuries prior. But then the revolution will be over, for the most part, and the situation will once again stabilize, and Irish speakers two and three generations hence will wonder how anyone actually thought it could have been any other way.

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 80.93.5.45
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 08:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But like the two lanaguages are chalk and cheese!

Well someday I must go round Dublin speaking english with gaelic phonetics, brought-over idioms (Person: Where are you living? Me: "Bhuel, is me in my /l/iving in Chrum-linn" (lenition on the c). Teacher: "what unit of measure should we utilise?" Me: "is knowledge of upon me - oridanach" (mixed language word), or even better throw in irish words left and right and compound prepostions and definite article:

Is the grian ithe (in + the) sky! (The sun is in the sky)).

Now add in semantics, rymthm, intonations....

Not: It's my gaff, please come in, with stress ont he 'my' but a more flat beat: "Is my ghaf-sa, tar in, if is your thoil"

How long do you think it will be to a) I am shunned by everyone b) I am institutionalised?

Not long.

But its OK to Englishise Irish. Bear in mind the socail networks that use made up irish are very fractured and still lack the coherence of the gaeltacht. There seesm to be a fantasy that somesort of second lanuage group with a strong identity is out there. I fail to see it. The 'carrier wave' is Irish identity, but as for a real body of speakers to 'rival' natives there is none. What there is a a body of learners who ahve made up a cant by improperly learning a target language. But nobody grows up speaking this cant.

The reason I cant agree with your view is that since the irish speaking cohort is mainly second learners whcih have to be replenished every single generation, there is NO large stable body of speakers who pass it on to make the new irish their own. It is constantly changing, and that is one big reason why there will be no dialect springing up to match Donegal, Conemara etc. It simply does not exist.

There is a big difference between contientious parents who with good will pass on an Irish that differs from the gaeltacht, and those who send their kids to gaelscoileanna where the teachers are not native and where each generation re-anglicises the langauge and where as ireland moves back to been British again, each generation speaks a more standard Homecounty english. Eventually it will be like the queen of england speaking irish!

"servent, one is okras!"

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2498
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 08:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tharlódh sé go mbeadh do chuid Gael Bhéarla níos intuigthe ná an Béarla a scríonn tú anseo....

quote:

The reason I cant agree with your view is that since the irish speaking cohort is mainly second learners whcih have to be replenished every single generation



Cad air a bhfuil an tuairim sin bunaithe?
Leath agus leath atá ann, dar liomsa.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1017
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well even check out Aoife Ni Thuirsig ar TG4 when over voiced the pre-ads for Ros na Rún, the rs are retroflex.

That lad Padraig, is it, ar an gclár is ainm comhrá who used retroflexes alone too, I swear he is, but I'll tune in the next time to be sure


I can't see TG4 from the place where I am, a chara. Chan fhaca mé Ros na Rún ariamh, cé gur chuala mé fá dtaobh dó. Are you sure Aoife Ní Thuirsig(h?) is a native (traditional) speaker, and where from? Same question about Pádraig. I have never heard any Gaeltacht speaker, even a young one, pronouncing all r's as English r’s in Irish, except that guy from Coolea. Listen to Lasairfhíona Ní Chonaola (i think she’s about 20) from the Aran Isles, to Donegal children, etc. Almost always alveolar r’s. Cad é mar atá ’n scéal i gCorca Dhuibhne? bhfuil páistí ann a bhfuil Gaeilg ó dhúchas acu, agus cad é mar a fhuaimníos siad na r-annaí ?

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2501
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 12:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is as Indreabhán d'Aoife Ní Thuairisg.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/turasteanga/guest1.html


Maidir le Corca Dhuibhne, ta sampla anseo ó Rabhlaí Rabhlaí (de réir mo chuimhne is paiste atá sa sampla seo, ach ní thig liom é chinntiú anseo)

http://www.cdu.mic.ul.ie/rabhlai/sampla.htm

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 80.93.5.45
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 12:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus,
"Tharlódh sé go mbeadh do chuid Gael Bhéarla níos intuigthe ná an Béarla a scríonn tú anseo...."

yes, yes. ana-fhunny. As I said "Táim ag tógáil mo cainuniti féin..."

Cad air a bhfuil an tuairim sin bunaithe?
What does Homer Simpson say about statistics?...

So like, Aonghus, wheres the beef? Where are these legions of people with their Irish that is fluent but 'wrong'? YEs it is opinion, but do I need an opinion on something that does not exist?

AS for the mention of continual creation of second speakers every generation, linguists have mentioned it and URL supplied my members here have contained as such. That American lad, sorry, professor....I know not too good of a referecne, but I might find it. Usually when asked to explain in more detail I lose the referene (nod to Max, Lughaidh, F na B...)

"Leath agus leath atá ann, dar liomsa"

Tá mé ábalta a feic cúpla phónaire bhruithe i do smig, leath agus leath...

Lughaidh,
bi ag lookáil for it, but I must say I think it is like when they read out say 'Ros na Rún' where most poeple who watch are English speakers and so it is just like an English word. Mostly it is alveolar rs.

I'll put it this way: a) some words are retroflex b) I suspect some words may have r retroflex as an allophone besides medially as your outlined above c) loan words are contributing.

It is not a big problem, so I don;t want to sound like it is all gone Pete Tong, or anything (by the way is Sle doing a 'pimp my ride-esque' episode this week?

I believe Ms Ni Thuirsig is native. She sounds native, and seems to only use the english r when in comtemporary loan words (as is of course natural).

I ahve heard Donegal children speak, and yes it is really Gaelic, no retroflex there (or they would end up like from Belfast or something in sound!)

The shkéal in Kerry I dunno. When I heard kids on the TV going to the granny's house, they did not seem to have very good Irish, but maybe they are not been brought up with the Irish. If anyone knows here, dont be quiet. The r-annaí were like english in the above example, but I would think it would be easier to do the alveolar rs in Irish, so if the kids with the real irish were there, it might've been different. PLus, they might have been shy, and used school irish (sounding like english) for the camera, but as they themselves were no directly spoken to, there was little time to hear them.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2504
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 12:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá mo thuarim buanithe ar dhaoine go bhfuil aithne phearsanta agam orthu i mBÁC a bhfuil gaeilge acu.

Tógadh ar a laghad leath acu le gaeilge.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2510
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 03:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Maidir le Corca Dhuibhne, ta sampla anseo ó Rabhlaí Rabhlaí (de réir mo chuimhne is páiste atá sa sampla seo, ach ní thig liom é chinntiú anseo)



Hmm. Mícheart arís. An Bhab atá ann, seachas páiste.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1020
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 05:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maidir le Corca Dhuibhne, ta sampla anseo ó Rabhlaí Rabhlaí (de réir mo chuimhne is paiste atá sa sampla seo, ach ní thig liom é chinntiú anseo)

http://www.cdu.mic.ul.ie/rabhlai/sampla.htm


Sé, seanbhean atá ann. Níl r Béarla ar bith aici, r-annaí breátha Gaelacha atá ann i gcónaí. Fuaimníocht don scoith aici sin -- Don chuid agaibh ar mhian leofa Gaeilg bhinn Ghaeltachta a chluinstean, éistigí léithe sin!

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2513
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 05:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá meascán breá de ghuthanna, óg agus aosta, ar an CD úd.

Tá Bab ar shlí na fírinne, faraor - ach tá a oidhreacht againn fós -

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=2169

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 87.192.251.165
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 11:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.beo.ie/2004-06/spoirt.asp


Well this lady is pronouncing the r in 'Rugadh' retroflex, and 'dhúchais' is even worse, coming out as 'goohish'.

Should'nt beo be more careful?

"Tír gan teanga, tír gan anim" Cinnte...

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1024
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 12:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well this lady is pronouncing the r in 'Rugadh' retroflex, and 'dhúchais' is even worse, coming out as 'goohish'.

And other mistakes as well ó thús go deireadh. You are right, they should be more careful... Hurts my ears !

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 413
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 03:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"And other mistakes as well ó thús go deireadh...Hurts my ears !"

Yup. Mine too. It takes less than one second of listening to determine that she's a learner who has a great deal left to learn even about the very basics of pronunciation, and every additional second confirms it.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 414
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 03:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"It takes less than one second"

Maybe two.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2520
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 09:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Má tá sibh chomh buartha sin, tuige nach dtéann sibh i dteangmháil le hÉamonn Ó Dónaill eagarthoir@beo.ie nó Liam Ó Cuinneagáin oifig@beo.ie.

Tá saineolas dosháraithe acu araon ar Ghaeilge a mhúineadh.

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Fearn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 194.217.0.27
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 11:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

B'fhéidir go bhfuil De'n Fhios mar an Impire le Mó Teárt a rá go raibh barraíocht nótaí ina cheol aige.

Seans go bhfuil barraíocht fuaimeanna sa Ghaeilge (?)

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Dalta (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 143.239.7.2
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 12:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Lughaidh, conas a bhfuair tusa an fhuamníocht Ghaelach? Amháin ó d'uaireanta i dTír Chonaill?

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 87.192.251.165
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 08:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I would like to say tho, that *as things go* her pronounciation is miles better that most attempts (like many people who are paid to speak it (celd dias, canradh na gaeilge, foras na gaeilge etc))

For American viewers who see this as acedemic I would just like to point out that the not doing it right, for me, is the problem, not that it did not come out right, i.e. a lot of people think any old way is good enough, or even worse, that their pronounciation is the best, like when I got pulled up at the celt dias place in ballsbridge for pronounciaing 'An Gúm' as /@ gu:(@)m/ not 'awn goom' or their conference is ainm 'Tionól' /t'ono:l/ and not thier 'correct' 'chunoo'

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 87.192.251.165
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 08:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

or rather /t'ino:l/



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