Hi,
my question is that can the genitive govern both nom and accus cases? The examples below suggest so, but I'll ask the grammar heads.

Yes I know, -(a)ibh is a bit old fashioned, and that there are no explicit nom & acc differences any more.

Any pointers on the correct use of grammitical terms appreciated.

Chuir Seán hata an chait ar an madraibh

Chuir	Seán	hata	an	chait	ar	an	madraibh
Verb	Nominative	Accusitive	def art	Genitive	prep	def art	Dative
	Subject	Object		Governence			indir Object

Chonaic cat Sheáin Seán ag cur a chaipín ar an madraibh

Chonaic	cat	Sheáin	Seán	ag	cur	a	chaipín	ar	an	madraibh
Verb	Nominative	Genitive	Nominative	prep	VbN	def art	Accusitive	prep	def art	Dative
	Subject	Governance	Subject				Object			indir Object

"Yes I know, -(a)ibh is a bit old fashioned"

It's more important that you know it's plural.

It's more important that you know it's plural.

Oh right, madra/madraí. I did not know about the (a)ibh been plural as I don't hear it spoken on TG4, altho I once did catch the cope Gallagher use 'bádaibh' but it was at some press conference and the news presenter was talking over the dialogue, so I couln't catch any of it

Éist níos mó le RnaG. Tá -aibh coitianta ó dheas.

Yep, @n if I'd bin finkin, I'd a' got dis won for de gr@mer
http://www.fiosfeasa.com/bearla/language/grammar1.htm

> Hi,
my question is that can the genitive govern both nom and accus cases?

I don't understand this question.
Nouns (irrespective of nom., acc., dat. or even gen.) govern other nouns by means of the genitive case.
That's all.
The genitive does not govern anything.

BTW: The phrase "Seán ag cur a chaipín ar an (recte: na) madraíbh" is accusative as a whole.

Lars

Lars,
thanks. I have started to look at grammar these last few weeks, so am ignorance of it for the most part.

By saying that the genitve case allows one noun to govern anouther, that makes it much more clear for me.

"The genitive does not govern anything"

i was beginning to suspect as such as it did not make sense once you started to work it out

Putting aside the fact that the confusion between "case" and "fonction" persists, I have a problem with the word "govern".

What happens when there is nothing to govern?
I perfer the term "determine". (If A governs B, then B determines A)

In "cat Sheáin", "Séan" determines "cat" by means of the genitive.
Syntactically, it means that "Séan" depends hierarchically upon "cat".
Semantically, it means that "Séan" helps precise "cat".

> What happens when there is nothing to govern?

Then there is no reason to talk about that. ;-)

> I perfer the term "determine". (If A governs B, then B determines A)

"Govern" and "determine" are used differently.
Prepositions govern nouns, but nouns do not determine prepositions.

Lars

>>but nouns do not determine prepositions.

Of course... a preposition (like a case) marks the relation between two units.

>>Prepositions govern nouns

I don't understand.

(Message edited by Max on October 21, 2005)

>>Prepositions govern nouns

>I don't understand.

Yes, this is not quite correct.
It is more correct to say:
Prepositions govern cases (dative, accusative, genitive, etc.).


Lars

>>It is more correct to say:
>>Prepositions govern cases (dative, accusative, genitive, etc.).

It is when they do. (It depends on the language)

What we are talking about here is called rection.

In Irish, dative is governed by prepositions only in the dialects where it still exists...
other than that, we have things like "os cionn + genitive"... "os cionn" is half way through being "1 preposition + 1 noun" (therefore followed by the genitive) and "1 preposition as a wholle" (governing genitive). In French, we call this process "synthématisation" (but I don't know the English equivalent).