If I want to say "Hi my sweet girl", is it better to say:

"Haigh, mo chailín álainn".

or

"Haigh, a chailín álainn".

I know you generally use "a" instead of "mo" but I want to emphasise the fact that she's MY girl.


Thank you

I'd go with "mo".

You've addressed her with the "Haigh", which is where the "a" usually comes in.

What about something else instead of cailin alainn?
Stor, Ghrá, phota mar shampla..
If you want to emphasise MY then use the word for MY .i. Mo Stór, Mo ghrá , Mo phota..

A isn't instead of mo, in the vocative you have to use "a" whatever comes after (even if you don't always hear it in speech):

Haigh, a mo chailín álainn.

A Dhomhnaill, in Irish if you want to emphasize "my" just use the -sa/-se suffixes after the noun:

MY girl = mo chailínse (féin). I don't think it's possible to stress the word "mo" nor any possessive word.

quote:

Haigh, a mo chailín álainn

Tá sin bacach, a Lughaidh. Ní doigh liom go gcloisfeá é sin riamh.

Agus ní gá go mbeadh "cailín" sa tuiseal gairmeach má tá Haigh roimhe.

But we could compromise on

"Haigh, a chailín liom"

>Tá sin bacach, a Lughaidh. Ní doigh liom go gcloisfeá é >sin riamh.

cha gcluinfeá "a" sa chaint, sin a’ méid. Cad chuige nach mbeadh "a" ann siocair go bhfuil sé sa tuiseal ghairmeach.

>Agus ní gá go mbeadh "cailín" sa tuiseal gairmeach má >tá Haigh roimhe.

Nach n-abrann tú "haigh a chara" "dia duit a Lughaidh" agus mar sin dó ? Cad é ’n duifear?

Is fíor dhuit. (seachas nach ndearfainn "Haigh!").

Ach ní fhaca me riamh a + "mo rud ar bith".

Ní cloisfeá sa chaint é toisc nach bhfuil sé so-ráite.

>>Cad chuige nach mbeadh "a" ann siocair go bhfuil sé sa tuiseal ghairmeach.

I haven't done a comprehensive analysis on the vocative particule, but here are a few thoughts:

- I am not sure at all there is a vocative case in Irish.
- The vocative particule may belong to the determinant class (along with the definite article and the possessive adjectives). This will explain why "a" cannot appear at the same time as a "mo".

I think there is a vocative case, because some words have a special form for it, that isn't used in other contexts, ex:

a fheara ! (Men!)

"nominative" plural fir
genitive plural fear
old dative plural fearaibh

"Ó! Mo linbh! Mo linbh! Mo linbh!" adeiridís agus iad ag gabháil fhoinn dhó. "Ó! Mo linbh! Is tú grá geal mo chroí!"

— Liam Ó Flaithearta, "An Beo"

A mh'anam, my soul.

---Dinneen's dictionary.

Chuimhnigh mise air sin chomh maith.

Ó! Mo linbh! Mo linbh! Mo linbh!"

Cad é sin? Linbh?

linbh < leanbh

quote:

A mh'anam, my soul.

Good catch, and interesting. It is part, however, of a constellation of intriachtaí a bhfuil mo agus anam iontu: dar m'anam, ar m(h)'anam, mh'anam, (mo) sheacht mh'anam (déag) thú! (Níl a fhios agam cén fáth a bhfuil "mh" séimhithe in "sheacht mh'anam".) That sets it apart a little from the garden-variety use of the vocative.

OK this ist getting confusing,

Aonghus said:

"I'd go with "mo".

You've addressed her with the "Haigh", which is where the "a" usually comes in."


which was my thinking too, is that correct? So if I use "Haigh" then I can use the "mo" instead of "a" because I've already addressed her with "Hi"?

I don't see why "haigh" could replace "a". "Haigh" means "Hi" and "a" is a vocative particle. "A" doesn't means "Hello" no any greeting. You can say "A Sheáin! Faigh bás!". You wouldn't say hello to someone if you say "faigh bás" after, but you still use "a"...

I'd go with Aonghus. And Harry, if she is your girl, your intent is more important than your grammar.

Harry, the confusion arises because Irish has a specific way of addressing people which english lacks.

So it's hard to explain.

Possibilities:
Haigh, mo chailín álainn(and damn the purists)
Haigh, a chailín álainn liom (a for the vocative, liom to indicate possession)
Haigh, a mo chailín álainn (I don't like this one, because I think it's awkward).


Or just learn this song!

http://www.navan.org/lyrics/an_cailin_alainn.html

(But don't tell her it was composed about a boat)

"a chailín álainn liom"

"Oh, little darling of mine, I just can't believe it's so."

Just making an observation:

This guy wanted a very basic 4 word sentence translated from english to Irish. Thusfar it has generated 20 posts (mine included, his excluded)and there still is no consensus on the "right" answer.

Is it any wonder we can't keep people studying and learning Irish?

Aonghus is spot on when he says "damn the purists". I don't know what the "right" answer is but I do know that if this guy had uttered:

Haigh, a mo chailín álainn

Haigh, a chailín liom

or even

Haigh, a chailín liomse

He would have been understood by most native speakers. Would he have been marked as a non-native...possibly, but a speaker he would be none-the-less.

This is alot like music, as far as I'm concerned. You don't start a beginning violinist with Bartok or Mozart...you start with Twinkle Twinkle Little Star...

Sorry...it just seems we get so bogged down in the simplest of things and lose sight of what it is we're trying to do here.

So, Harry...pick one of the three I've listed above and have at it. God Bless you for even caring enough to try. I think it's wonderful! I hope the young lady in question is impressed enough to start learning Irish with you!

quote:

Is it any wonder we can't keep people studying and learning Irish?

What do you want here? (A) free give and take among Daltaí who know the language (I exclude the piffling of the fictitious "Lucy"); (B) a single language czar; (C) a committee that thrashes all this out behind closed doors and issues a decorous recommendation with footnotes two months later?

The vocative happens to be a vexed area of Irish usage (witness the earlier brouhaha over correct vocative of "Fear na mBróg"). Harry, bail ó Dhia air, did not walk into this as a complete naïf either. He wrote

quote:

I know you generally use "a" instead of "mo" but I want to emphasise the fact that she's MY girl.

The clár plé is doing its very best here, giving the question full and serious attention.

Fair point, Dennis. Harry was asking for a more "drilled down" translation, if you will. Perhaps it's my own inadequacies that make this type of "I'm right"..."no I'M right" banter so frustrating.

Heck, I'm just happy when I can put together a sentence that the majority can understand. The trifling just further confounds me.

On the surface his question seemed too simple to garner 20 + responses. In retrospect, perhaps it is a credit to the members here that it only took 20!

Well I may aswell throw in my own thoughts...

To address someone as "girl", you say:

a chailín

"my girl" can be either of:

mo chailín
cailín liom

1) Decision 1: Decide on one of the above.

If you choose the latter, then it's simply:

a chailín liom

However if you choose the former, you've to tackle a particular issue which is: What happens to the "mo" when you stick "a" in front of it? Well I forsee three rational possibilities:

a chailín
mo chailín
a mo chailín

I don't know the answer to the question (as I'm not a fluent speaker), so just ask the fluent people -- Lughaidh for one thinks "a mo chailín" is OK.

So far my preference is:

a chailín álainn s'agamsa

(not sure if it's valid but I like the sound of it in my head)

"so just ask the fluent people -- Lughaidh for one thinks "a mo chailín" is OK.

Native speakers who say "haon, dó, trí, ceathair" and are told that they're supposed to say "a haon, a dó, a trí, a ceathair" may mistakenly think this means they're also supposed to say *"a fiche, a tríocha" and so on; and the same kind of hypercorrection is possible with the vocative particle in a case like this. Lughaidh would never say "a mo chailín" himself, though, because it just doesn't sound right (unless the "a" is uttered as a stressed interjection — [a] or [α] — making it more like "Á, mo chailín!"). I'd say that "a mo chailín" is about as right as "dear my friend."

James - Maith thú! This lot would kill any romance.

Or how 'bout, "Haigh, a chailín mo cheannsa!"??

As a manner of address, it seems to convey that she's your girl.(your one and only?) The use of 'liom' at the end of the sentence could be used to tell others to "back off" as well.

Harry,

I like a simple "a stór" = "my dear” [pronounced “store”].
Simple, easy to pronounce, and it gets your point across.

All the best,
Paul

>Lughaidh would never say "a mo chailín" himself, >though, because it just doesn't sound right (unless >the "a" is uttered as a stressed interjection — [a] or >[α] — making it more like "Á, mo chailín!"). I'd say >that "a mo chailín" is about as right as "dear my >friend."

I don't know everythin about Irish grammar, anyway, but i don't see why one wouldn't use "a", since it's in the vocative and in the vocative you always use it (at least in written language).

You 're right: i would never say "a mo chailín" but "a stór, a rún, a ghrá" etc (if she is my girlfriend, i mean ;-) )

"but i don't see why one wouldn't use "a", since it's in the vocative and in the vocative you always use it (at least in written language)."

One wouldn't because one doesn't: it only occurs as a proclitic, immediately preceding the substantive that it marks as vocative (a noun, a noun with a prefixed adjective, or a substantivized adjective — a ghrá, a chéadsearc, a mhaoineach).

Bhuel de réir Dinneen faoin gceannteideal "a"
"often slurred over in pronunciation; silent before vowel and fh and sometimes not written, being replaced by an apostrophe or simply omitted"

agus níos déanaí san alt chéanna
"the usage a mh' anam, my soul is exceptional"

Éagran 1934, lch 1.

>"the usage a mh' anam, my soul is exceptional"

The usage of mh' instead of m' before a noun, or the usage of a before a possessive? That's the question. It isn't clear.

Ceard faoi 'a chailín mo chroí' -- that always makes me shiver and it keeps the a and mo both in it albeit separated -- that should please all parties above. Would anyone ever say a chailín s'agamsa when directly talking to her?

tuairm Chailín daoibhse, pé scéal é for what it's worth.

I don't think it's possible to use "s'agamsa" without any article before the noun.

You can use "A chailín seo".
So why not "A chailín seo agamsa"?

Lars

Can you use "a chailín seo" ? Never heard that.

quote:

Can you use "a chailín seo" ? Never heard that.

You can, mar a dúirt Lars. Seo agat Na Bráithre arís:

§ 158. Is féidir an aidiacht thaispeántach a úsáid sa ghairmeach: - a bhean sin thuas sa chúinne!; a ghiolla seo; a fhir úd thall ar an gclaí; a thonn seo thíos.

Scríobh Cailín:

quote:

Ceard faoi 'a chailín mo chroí'

That gets my vote. Táim díreach tar éis súil a thabhairt ar an téad go léir (go sciobtha!) agus ní fheicim aon rud níos nádúrtha agus níos giorra do bhrí na habairte "Hi my sweet girl".

"Bhuel de réir Dinneen..."

And not only according to Dinneen. I'd put "silent before vowel and fh" in bold type too. It's cacophonic and hypercorrect (i.e. wrong) to say "a-fhear-a" or "a-Air-e" with a glottal stop to fill the hiatus. Just elide the "a."

"Ceard faoi 'a chailín mo chroí'"

Nothing wrong with that.

A lughaidh,
I still wonder though, as to the answer I gave. Might it be used? He did simply ask to address a girl. I mean, he's addressing HER. I get 'mo stoir', etc.... These were the first idiomatic thoughts I had - if he KNEW the SHE KNEW - that she was his girl. Hmmmm OK minus that. Or what ever....
Put more simply , how might my attempt be taken?

"Ceard faoi 'a chailín mo chroí'"

Togha. Mo vóta aige sin freisin.

>§ 158. Is féidir an aidiacht thaispeántach a úsáid sa >ghairmeach: - a bhean sin thuas sa chúinne!; a ghiolla >seo; a fhir úd thall ar an gclaí; a thonn seo thíos.

Sé! ’s cuimhin liom anois, teideal an amhráin "a bhean udaí thall". Char smaoitigh mé air sin. B’aistíoch liom "a chailín seo" siocair nár léigh mé ná nár chuala mé ariamh é. Anois aontaim libh.

>And not only according to Dinneen. I'd put "silent >before vowel and fh" in bold type too. It's cacophonic >and hypercorrect (i.e. wrong) to say "a-fhear-a" or "a->Air-e" with a glottal stop to fill the hiatus. Just >elide the "a."

Níor úrt mé ariamh gur chóir an "a" a fhuaimniú in achan chás, ach gur chóir a scríobh. Cibé ar bith, muna mbeadh "a" ar bith ann, ní "a fheara" a deirfí ach "feara"...

Nó 'Fheara - mar a dúirt Dinneen.

"Níor úrt mé ariamh gur chóir an "a" a fhuaimniú in achan chás

Níor úirt, ach is minic a chluintear daoine ag rá "Sé vur mbeatha...a...éisteoirí!" agus a leitheide.