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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (September-October) » Archive through October 21, 2005 » Conversation make sense? « Previous Next »

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Autumnmusic
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Username: Autumnmusic

Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 07:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I like to write, and in a story I am working on, (adopted child, doesn't live with her birth mother, birth mother speaks Irish, child speaks some Irish, introducing a friend who speaks English to her mother) there is a conversation in Irish, but I'm not sure it makes sense. Could someone look it over for me? Thanks.

Child: Hállo, Mum, etc etc. Labhairt [in] Béarla, Julian níl labhairt Gaelige.

Translation: Hi mum, etc etc. Speak in English, Julian doesn't speak Gaelic.

I know, I know, it's choppy, but I can't figure out how to conjugate. : ) Also, can I put a 'please' in there somewhere? Any suggestions welcome!

Thanks again!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 434
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 10:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Labhairt [in] Béarla, Julian níl labhairt Gaelige.
I can't figure out how to conjugate.

The very first word is a command (imperative), so you don't have to worry about conjugating. The verb form listed in dictionaries is always the imperative (tóg! ól! ith! déan! bí!), so here "Labhair Béarla."

For the second part, you could use the same verb again, which would give you "Ní labhraíonn Julian Gaeilge." But it would be much more idiomatic to say "Níl Gaeilge ag Julian" (Julian doesn't have Irish).
quote:

Also, can I put a 'please' in there somewhere?

Sure. Add "le do thoil" after "Béarla".

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 269
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 10:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Halo, a Mhamaí. Abhair as Béarla é, (le do thoil) (please). Níl Julian Gaeilge aige.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 436
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 10:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Abhair as Béarla é

That works fine ("Say it in English"), but make that "abair". The second sentence, well, it needs work.

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 270
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 10:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sorry, Autumnmusic. I've made Julian the subject of the sentence. It should read Níl Gaeilge ag Julian.

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Autumnmusic
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Username: Autumnmusic

Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 08:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Okay, so I've got,
"Halo, a Mhamaí. Abair as Béarla é, le do thoil. Níl Gaeilge ag Julian,"

or

"Hello, Mother. Speak English, please, Julian doesn't speak Gaelic."
Great. Is this any particular dialect?

Go raith mhaith agat for your help. (That does mean 'thank you,' right, I didn't just say something idiotic, did I?): )

Also, why are we changing 'abhair' to 'abair'? Just a misspelling? Or is it like the difference between 'duit' and 'dhuit'?


Slán,
Katie

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 273
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 09:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Just my stupid mistake, Autumnmusic. I struck the L & T from labhairt and left the H.

And yes, Go raibh maith agat does mean "thank you."

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 442
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Just to be clear, there are two separate, unrelated verbs here:

labhair = speak

Labhair Béarla. = Speak English.

abair = say

Abair as Béarla é. = Say it in English.

I think using "abair" works better here:

Abair as Béarla é, a mhamaí. = Say it in English, mama (mommy, mammy).

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Autumnmusic
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Username: Autumnmusic

Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 06:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Great. Thanks. Labhair and abair are command form, right? Not the infinitive?

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 447
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 07:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Labhair and abair are command form, right?

Right.
quote:

Not the infinitive?

Irish has no infinitive. :-) What it has are verbal nouns. They're fun. You'll see.

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 188
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

question: why couldn't verbal nouns be considered as infinitives?

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 450
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 01:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Disclaimer: Ní teangeolaí mé! :-)

(1) Naive answer: because verbal nouns such as "rith" are fundamentally nouns, while "to run" and "courir" are conceptually part of the verbal system.

Functionally or grammatically, "rith" is a noun in the following:

Tá sé ag rith. = He is at running. = He's running.
Tá rith aige. = Running is at-him. = He has running. = He knows how to run.
Is fearr rith maith ná drochsheasamh. (proverb) = A good running is better than a bad standing.

(2) Appeal to authority: because "na leabhartha maithe" from Thurneysen's A Grammar of Old Irish right on down to Learning Irish insist that we have verbal nouns, not infinitives.

It strikes me that English might have both, although I was told in school that "running" is a gerund, not a verbal noun:

I like to run. (infinitive)
Running is fun. (verbal noun ??)
He is running. (gerund ??)

BTW, I notice that French speakers whose English is otherwise very good sometimes make the error of using the infinitive where a native would use the verbal noun/gerund.

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 279
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 01:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have assumed that any verb form (in English) which is used as a noun is the equivalent of the Irish verbal nous.

Hence gerunds "running" and infinitives (to run) mbeing used as nounds are verbal nouns.

Running is fun.

To run is also fun.

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 189
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 02:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>Naive answer: because verbal nouns such as "rith" are fundamentally nouns, while "to run" and "courir" are conceptually part of the verbal system.

linguistic answer :
Infinitives are not verbs. They are derived from verbs but don't belong to the same category because they don't react strictly like verbs.
If verbal nouns react strictly like nouns, then they are nouns, period. But I'm not sure about that: "ní fheiceann sé an t-úll a bhí sí a ithe"...

As for gerunds and infinitives in English, maybe they are just two different types of infinitives. What is sure is that both react sometimes like verbs and sometimes like nouns, and both react differently from each other.


>>BTW, I notice that French speakers whose English is otherwise very good sometimes make the error of using the infinitive where a native would use the verbal noun/gerund.

That is because French only has one type of infinitives.
The use of gerunds and infinitives in English is very subtle, and even English speakers don't always agree on their use.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 452
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 08:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"ní fheiceann sé an t-úll a bhí sí a ithe"...

Interesting example. Would you include "ba mhaith léi úll a ithe" with this?

A few comments on your example, by way of putting it in a broader context:

(a) In Scottish Gaelic, this would be "chan eil e a' faicinn an ubhail a bha i ag ithe."

(b) Although it's technically wrong, I've heard a lot of speakers of contemporary Irish, including native speakers, use "ag" rather than "a" in this sort of construction: an t-úll a bhí sí ag ithe.
The impression I get from this is that the "a ithe" type construction is rather unstable. I haven't looked at it historically.

As for the "a" above and in "ba mhaith liom sin a dhéanamh", if you look at it absolutely synchronically you may want to analyze the "a" as an indepdendent verbal particle or something (agus do chló féin a chur air mar theangeolaí, ar ndóigh!). But the traditional understanding of Irish speakers is that this "a" is simply a short form of the preposition "do" governing the following (verbal) noun. This is stated overtly, for example, in the "old" version of Teach Yourself Irish (p. 78):

« For the question "what is she doing?", the preposition do takes the place of ag, and in this position it is pronounced (and usually written) a: cad tá sí a dhéanamh? "what is she doing?" So too, an crios a bhí sí a dhéanamh "the belt she was making." »

It's not hard to find modern texts in which this a is written as do: "d'iarr sí air, a cheann do leagan ar a h-uchd"; and some where nothing is written: "d'fhéadfaidís sin dhéanamh go cinnte" (from an essay by Douglas Hyde).

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TSJ
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Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 09:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

May I ask for your assistance in solving a knotty problem which I have in Irish? I have noticed that there are often several ways in Irish of saying the same thing. But since I am not a native Irish speaker I have no way of knowing which is the correct or possibly preferred way.

For instance, I have heard all of the following:-

An t-ull a bhi si ag ithe

An t-ull a bhi si a ithe

An t-ull a bhi si a/ ithe

An t-ull a bhi a/ ithe aici

An t-ull a bhi si ag ithe

Are they all correct? Am I to choose whichever one I like best. If so, that would be a case of " L'embarras du choix ", which would only confuse me. I am entirely dependent for guidance in these matters on those who have a fuller knowledge of Irish than myself. Can you please help me?

Sorry. I have no way of writing the sineadh fada.

a/ = a fada.

Thank you.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 454
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 12:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

an t-úll a bhí sí ag ithe Technically incorrect, but fairly common.

an t-úll a bhí sí a ithe OK.

an t-úll a bhí sí á ithe I'd never say that.

an t-úll a bhí á ithe aici OK.

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TSJ
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Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 01:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, a Dennis. You cleared my mind on that point. I find that removing doubts helps me to achieve a higher level of fluency.

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 190
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 08:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>Would you include "ba mhaith léi úll a ithe" with this?

Indeed I would.

>>In Scottish Gaelic, this would be "chan eil e a' faicinn an ubhail a bha i ag ithe."
>>speakers, use "ag" rather than "a" in this sort of construction: an t-úll a bhí sí ag ithe.

I analyse "a" and "ag" as two forms of the same unit ("ag" becomes "a" when the object of the verbal noun precedes it). This analysis explains then very simply why the form "ag" is being generalized in all (or close) contexts.
In Scottish Gaelic, there is apparently only one form... all the simpler.

>>an t-úll a bhí á ithe aici OK.

Why is it not "an t-úll a raibh á ithe aice"?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 894
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 08:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>Although it's technically wrong, I've heard a lot of >speakers of contemporary Irish, including native >speakers, use "ag" rather than "a" in this sort of >construction: an t-úll a bhí sí ag ithe.

Yes. That looks to be a recent evolution (simplification of the system), that has happened in Scottish Gaelic as well.

>The impression I get from this is that the "a ithe" >type construction is rather unstable. I haven't looked >at it historically.

That "a" comes from "do" (that is still to be heard in Munster) in Old Irish. You'll find stuff about "oc" / "do" before verbal nouns in Thurneysen's grammar (but where??).

>An t-úll a bhí sí ag ithe : not correct for standard and older grammar, but is now commonly used in the Gaeltacht, especially by younger speakers.

>An t-úll a bhí sí a ithe : correct, it's the traditional way and the rule in grammar books

>An t-úll a bhí sí á ithe : never heard or seen that. Not correct according to grammars. Are you sure it is really what people said? If you use á (ag+ possessive a or do + possessive á), you should use the indirect relative form of the verb: An t-úll a raibh sí á ithe.

>An t-ull a bhí á ithe aici : ok, but not the same structure as the other ones, for it's a passive construction.

>An t-úll a bhí sí ag ithe : it's your first sentence again.

Now, there are other possibilities with the indirect relative: raibh.

An t-úll a raibh sí á ithe, etc

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 191
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 09:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>That looks to be a recent evolution (simplification of the system)

It's not a simplification of the system if it's the same unit... it's a morphological simplification.
Even if we consider that "a" is "do", so that we have "do" and "ag", since in these contexts you can't oppose them, they are in "complementary distribution", which makes it a morphological matter anyway.

>>Why is it not "an t-úll a raibh á ithe aice"?

OK, I know why now...:
in: "an t-úll a bhí á ithe aice", "á" contains the possessive pronoun "a" which would appear even if the clause was not relative (tá an t-úll á ithe aice).
in: "an t-úll a raibh sí á ithe", "á" contains the possessive pronoun "a" which would NOT appear if the clause was not relative (bhí sí ag ithe an t-úll).
In the first case, the relation to the antecedent is direct (therefore "bhí"), in the second case, the relation to the antecedent in indirect ("a" tands for the antedecent, therefore "raibh")

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 895
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 01:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Plus: in indirect relative clauses, you always (i think) have the subject after the verb:

* "an t-úll a raibh á ithe aici" > where is the subject of "raibh" ?

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 193
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 03:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Either "an t-úll a raibh á ithe aici" is acceptable or it's not.
If it's not, then we only have "an t-úll a bhí á ithe aici".
In "an t-úll a bhí á ithe aici", the subject of "bhí" is the antecedent ("an t-úll"). The antecedent being in a direct relation with the word to which it is related (the verb "bhí"), the form of the relative particle is then direct.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 897
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 07:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>Either "an t-úll a raibh á ithe aici" is acceptable or >it's not.

Of course! But what i meant is that i've never heard such thing and it sounds very odd to me. But sometimes you are surprised by what you hear in the Gaeltacht, so... you never know :-)

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 807
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 10:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I myself would say:

That's the apple I was eating.
Sin an t-úll a rabhas á ithe.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 898
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 11:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I would say

That's the apple I was eating.
Sin a' t-úll a bhí mé a dh’ithe.
[s´in´ ə tu:əL ə v´i: m´a jihə]

(Donegal Irish)

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 205
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 04:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"But sometimes you are surprised by what you hear in the Gaeltacht"

Sea! Béarla!!

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 900
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 05:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cluinfidh tú Gaeilg fosta, má éisteann tú go maith. Má chluin tú barraíocht Béarla sa Ghaeltacht, fág Corca Dhuibhne agus Conamara ’s gabh ó thuaidh go Gaoth Dobhair, nó go Toraigh ;-)

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2224
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 08:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bhuel, ní aontaíom leat go gcluinfidh tú barraíocht Béarla i gCorca Dhuibhne, chomh fada agus go mbíonn tú lastiar den Daingean.

Gabh siar, nó ó thuaidh, mar sin.

Ach is ar an Rinn a bhí Domhnall ag trácht le deanaí - tá an Ghaeilge ar a cosaint sna mion ghaeltachtaí uilig.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 808
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 09:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"á" has two separate uses (or meanings, whatever way you want to look at it).

Take the following sample:

Cá bhfuil Síle, táim á lorg?
Where's Síle, I'm looking for her?

In this sense (meaning, context... whatever), "á" is like "ag a", eg.:

Táim ag lorg an chailín. I'm looking for the girl.
Táim á lorg. I'm looking for her.

So if you wanted to say "That's the apple I was eating", you'd have:

Sin an t-úll a raibh mé á ithe.

---

Now there's a totally different "á", which translates as "being":

D'fhágas an cluiche -- bhí mé á mharú! I left the game -- I was being killed!

Bhí sí á crá agam. I was annoying her.

"That's the apple I was eating"

Sin an t-úll a bhí á ithe agam.

---

I tend to use the Saorbhriathar instead of "á". I wouldn't say:

Táim á chrá!

I'd say:

Táthar do mo chrá!

Bhí sí á marú
Bhíothas á marú

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 208
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 09:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bhuel ar dtús ni ach ag magadh a bhi me..
Anois an ceart atá agat Aonghus bhios sa Rinn LE DEANAI. E sin ráite, bhios ar an gCeathrú Rua, Inreabhán agus Gaoth Dobhair cheana féin. Agus caithfidh mé a admháil ó mo thaithi féin nach raibh Gaeilge ar chor ar bith le cloisteáil i nGaoth Dobhair. Tá suil agam go raibh mé san áit micheart ag an am micheart mar deirtear gurb i an ait sin an ait is láidire o thaobh na Gaeilge de sa tir.

Bhi se i bhfad is i bhfad nios láidire i nGaillimh - Arann/ Indreabhán / Minna agus araile agus beagnach chomh láidir ar an gCeathrú Rua...

Dúirt duine liom a bhi ag obair i gcomhlacht sa Rinn nach mbeidh Gaeltacht i nGaillimh i gceann 20 bliain. As carna an duine seo agus séard a dúirt sé liom go direach ná
The tree may still be blossoming but the roots are dead. Ni raibh me sásta in aon chor. Ni firic atá ann ach tuairim.
CIB-E!

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 905
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 11:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>Now there's a totally different "á", which translates >as "being":

>D'fhágas an cluiche -- bhí mé á mharú! I left the game ->- I was being killed!

bhí mé á mharú = i was killing HIM...
I was being killed = bhí mé do mo mharú (sounds odd...)


>I tend to use the Saorbhriathar instead of "á". I >wouldn't say:

>Táim á chrá!

Nobody would say that to say "I’m being annoyed". á = ag + a (possessive). Can be replaced by dá (Munster) or dhá (Conamara).


>Anois an ceart atá agat Aonghus bhios sa Rinn LE >DEANAI. E sin ráite, bhios ar an gCeathrú Rua, >Inreabhán agus Gaoth Dobhair cheana féin. Agus >caithfidh mé a admháil ó mo thaithi féin nach raibh >Gaeilge ar chor ar bith le cloisteáil i nGaoth Dobhair. >Tá suil agam go raibh mé san áit micheart ag an am >micheart mar deirtear gurb i an ait sin an ait is >láidire o thaobh na Gaeilge de sa tir.

Gan amhras! ba mhinic mé i nGaoth Dobhair agus char chuala mé focal Béarla ar bith nó chóir a bheith (abair 95% Gaeilg, 5% Béarla. An chuid is mó don Bhéarla a chuala mé is ó bhéal turasóirí nó stráinséirí a chuala mé í.) Bíonn cuid mhaith turasóirí agus stráinséirí (as a’ Ghearmáin, as an Iodáil...) i nGD, agus níl Gaeilg ag an chuid is mó daofa, agus má tá daoiní acu in áit, labhairtear i mBéarla leofa, mar sin cha gcluineann tú Gaeilg sna háiteacha sin. Ach nuair a bíos bunadh na háite le chéile, is Gaeilg a bíos eatarthu. Chuala mé féin cuid mhór páistí as GD, agus bheadh siad a’ labhairt i nGaeilg i gcónaí ’s iad ag súgradh le chéile.

Braitheann sé ar an áit i nGaoth Dobhair. Tá níos mó Béarla le cluinstean i nDún Lúiche ná i gCnoc Fola, mar shampla.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 204
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 12:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>Táim á lorg. I'm looking for her.

How would you say : "I'm looking for you."?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 907
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 02:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Táim do do lorg (Donegal: tá mé a do lorg).

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 207
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 04:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So why would "á" in "Táim á lorg." be a contraction of "ag+a" ??

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 911
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 05:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No one knows if á there is do + a or ag + a, actually. My old teacher, Micheál Ó Murchú, who knows a lot about Irish, didn’t know.

Some say "táim dá lorg". Maybe, in "tá mé á lorg", á is dá that has lost the d (that happens in Donegal with the word "dá" = if.)

I can't say more!

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 810
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 03:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You use:

[ag + verbal noun + object]

to express "ing" in Irish, eg:

Bhí mé ag briseadh na fuinneoige

When the object is a pronoun, "ag" becomes "do":

Bhí sé do mo bhriseadh
Bhí sé do do bhriseadh
Bhí sé á bhriseadh
Bhí sé á briseadh
Bhí sé dár mbriseadh
Bhí sé do bhur mbriseadh
Bhí sé á mbriseadh

"á" is some sort of a contraction of "á", but is only ever used in the context of "ing" -- everywhere else you have:

Thug mé dá athair é.
I gave it to his father.

Not sure at all why "dá" became "á"... all I know is it has consequences elsewhere, particularly with the other "á" which means "being":

Bhí sé á chrá.

Out of context, the above could mean either "He was annoying him", or "He was being annoyed".

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 209
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 05:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>No one knows if á there is do + a or ag + a, actually. My old teacher, Micheál Ó Murchú, who knows a lot about Irish, didn’t know.

That is quite strange...

Either we look at it diachronically, and I don't see why we wouldn't know where "á" comes from.
Or we look at it synchronically, in which case the paradigm given above by Fear_na_mbróg shows very clearly that "á" is a contraction of "do+a".

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 479
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 02:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dúirt Max:
quote:

Either we look at it diachronically, and I don't see why we wouldn't know where "á" comes from.

Tá an ceart ag Lughaidh. Níl sé chomh furasta sin. Tá an dá leagan le fáil sna seantéacsanna. Mar shampla:

oc (= ag) + mo > 'com:

"mór fer ro boí com íarraid" = many men have been desiring/courting me

do + ar (= ár) > diar:

ataí diar lenamuin = you (sg.) are pursuing/following us

Is dóigh liom go raibh "oc + a" níos coitianta i dtús báire, ach is cosúil gur thit siad le chéile faoi dheireadh.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 920
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 03:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>Either we look at it diachronically, and I don't see >why we wouldn't know where "á" comes from.
>Or we look at it synchronically, in which case the >paradigm given above by Fear_na_mbróg shows very >clearly that "á" is a contraction of "do+a".

In Donegal, we say:

tá sé a mo bhualadh
tá sé a do bhualadh
tá sé á bhualadh
tá sé á bualadh
tá sé ár mbualadh
tá sé a’ mur mbualadh
tá sé á mbualadh

.........

In Scottish Gaelic, they say:

tha e gam bhualadh (gam = aig + mo)
tha e gad bhualadh
tha e ga bhualadh
tha e ga bualadh
tha e gar bualadh
tha e gur bualadh
tha e gam bualadh

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 213
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 05:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I still do see why the synchronic analysis (in each dialect) should be problematic...



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