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Desmond Johnston
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:22 pm: |
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Greetings, I'm not a Gaelic speaker of any degree. I would like to name something "New Tara." Can someone give me a Gaelic translation for this? thanks! Also, can anyone direct me to a website with a selection of clip art or something with a selection of Celtic crosses. I would really like Monasterboice. Des |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 803 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 03:04 am: |
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Presuming "Tara" is a name: Tara Nua Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 825 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 08:04 am: |
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The place-name Tara is Teamhair in Irish. Teamhair Nua. |
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Djwebb2002
Member Username: Djwebb2002
Post Number: 88 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 11:19 am: |
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This reminds me. In the film "Gone with the Wind" it is stated that the Irish for land is "tara", but I can only find "talamh". Can anyone clear up this mystery for me? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 826 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 11:36 am: |
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What they have said in the film is nonsense, that's all :-) . Land = talamh (=ground as well); tír (country)... |
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James
Member Username: James
Post Number: 270 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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Margaret Mitchell was a great romantic but if there is any presentation of historical fact in that movie it is by pure coincidence. Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.
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Desmond Johnston Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 12:40 am: |
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Tara Nua. Great. Are there any special accents in that? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 830 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 01:45 am: |
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Read again ;-) |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 226 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 04:08 am: |
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A Desmond, a chara, Tara Nua is half English and half Irish. Which do you want? New Tara Teamhair Nua Mura, frankly, a chara, níl a damn agat. Ouch. |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 228 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 10:26 am: |
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Clark Gable? Vivian Leigh? Gone with the Wind? Frankly, my dear, I don't give a ...? |
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Djwebb2002
Member Username: Djwebb2002
Post Number: 91 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 12:22 pm: |
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My guess is that Desmond Johnston wants to name his house after Tara in Gone with the Wind,and so wants to call it Tara Nua. Does it matter if Tara isn't correct? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 832 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 12:29 pm: |
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What is Tara in that movie? |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 372 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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Tara, an t-ainm a bhaist Gerald O'Hara, a rugadh in Éirinn, ar a eastát in Georgia. quote:Frankly, my dear, I don't give a ...? San úrscéal, "My dear, I don't give a damn" = "Is cuma liom sa diabhal, a chroí." (Message edited by dennis on October 01, 2005) |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 229 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 12:48 pm: |
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A Lughaidh, Tara is the name of the plantation which was owned by the family of the central character, Scarlet O'Hara in "Gone with the Wind" by Margaret Mitchell. In the Antebellum South a place such as "Tara" represented the status associated with the wealthy, landed gentry. |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 230 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 01:07 pm: |
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San úrscéal, "My dear, I don't give a damn" = "Is cuma liom sa diabhal, a chroí." Yes. I was just being silly, alternating pieces of English and Irish. If nothing else, it points out the futility of mixing idiomatic expressions. While I have your attention, where's the negative in "is cuma liom sa diabhal?" Never mind; I see it's implied in "is cuma liom" (it's the right shape with me = It's okay with me = I don't care.) But it loses in translation, n'est pas? (Message edited by pádraig on October 01, 2005) (Message edited by pádraig on October 01, 2005) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 834 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 04:57 pm: |
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Ok, I thought it was Tara, the place where were the Old Ireland's kings: this one is Teamhair in Irish. If it isn't this one, then use Tara > Tara Nua. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 373 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 06:30 pm: |
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Teamhair Nua would be better, in theory, except that no one would know how to pronounce it at sight... although Tower Noo-uh would be an acceptable approximation. Faoi Dheasún atá sé. Maidir le "is cuma liom", a Phádraig, is ionann é sin, focal ar fhocal, agus "it is equal with me". |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 835 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 06:52 pm: |
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Tower? tyah-wir' ! [t´awir´] |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 375 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 07:11 pm: |
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quote:Tower? tyah-wir' ! "The enemy of good is better", mar a dúirt an fear a dúirt. quote: [t´awir´] Is focal aonsiollach é "Teamhair", go bhfios dom, ar nós "leamhan, tamhan, meabhair", etc. : /t´aur´/. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 838 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 07:45 pm: |
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Depends on dialect. Anyway, you said it was with one syllable and you gave a word with two /t'a|ur'/. Strange. Meabhair has one syllable in Ulster: /mjo:r'/ (/mjo:j/ in Gweedore). For leamhan and tamhan, I would say /L'ãwən/ and /tãwən/. Ramhar has two syllables in Donegal (I'm 100% sure of it) /Rãwər/. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 376 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 09:45 pm: |
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quote:Anyway, you said it was with one syllable and you gave a word with two /t'a|ur'/. Strange. No, not even slightly strange. If you want to give someone who doesn't know Irish and is not actively learning it a way to say a word least incorrectly, the most effective ploy I know is to find a word in English that comes closest to matching it. Then there is no confusion about what the approximate pronunciation is supposed to be. Ní duitse a scríobh mé "tower". |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 839 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 10:49 pm: |
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I don't see the link between the quote and what you wrote below it. You said there was just one syllable and gave /t'aur'/. A is a vowel, u is a vowel so there are two vowels, so two syllables. Lánstad. The t in "tower" doesn't sound like a slender t. "Tower" would sound more like "tabhair" in Connemara Irish, maybe. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 378 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 12:00 am: |
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quote:You said there was just one syllable and gave /t'aur'/. A is a vowel, u is a vowel so there are two vowels, so two syllables. Lánstad. ??? An dáiríre atá tú? /au/ is a diphthong, mar atá a fhios agat go maith. abhainn /auN'/ siolla amháin leamhan /L'auN/ (= elm) ditto leamhán /L'au-a:N/ (= moth) dhá shiolla |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 840 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 09:44 am: |
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Ba chóir /aw/ a scríobh más défhoghar atá ann. Chan /au/. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 379 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 11:19 am: |
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/au/ a úsáidtear in: Foclóir Póca Learning Irish Teach Yourself Irish (Dillon & Ó Cróinín) Stair na Gaeilge: Gaeilge Uladh An Teanga Beo: Gaeilge Uladh agus i leabhartha eile, gan amhras, leis an défhoghar a thaispeáint. Tá a fhios agat sin. Ná lig ort go bhfuil tú dall ar an úsáid seo, ná ar an fhuaim a bhí i gceist agam nuair a scríobh mé Teamhair /t´aur´/. (Message edited by dennis on October 02, 2005) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 843 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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Is amhlaidh a chonaic mé sin i leabharthaí, ach char thuig mé ariamh cad chuige a scríobhtar dheá ghuta ansin. Mar shampla ins na leabharthaí fán Bhéarla, faightear "nice" /nais/, "lie" /lai/. Chan dóigh liom go bhfuil dheá shiolla ann. Tá tréan samplaí eile mar sin agus ós rud é nach bhfuil ach siolla amháin iontu, cad chuige a scríobhtar dheá ghuta ? Guta + leathchonsan (/j/, /w/...) ba chóir a bheith ann. I nGaeilg: lámh /Læ:w/, chan /Læ:u/. Mar sin, cad chuige a bhfaightear /-au-/ amannaí? Mínigh domh a’ riail sin, le do thoil... (Message edited by Lughaidh on October 02, 2005) |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 380 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
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quote:Mar sin, cad chuige a bhfaightear /-au-/ amannaí? Ní ammanaí! Presque toujours sna "dea-leabharatha" (féach thuas) a léann foghlaimeoirí na Gaeilge agus daoine nach iad. Níor aimsigh mé ach leabhar amháin a bhfuil /aw/ ann, mar atá Córas Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge a tháinig amach sa bhliain 1975 agus atá as cló le fada an lá, go bhfios dom. Is breá an leabhar é, ach is léir gur /au/ an norm. quote:Mínigh domh a’ riail sin, le do thoil... Ní teangeolaí mé, buíochas le Dia. Tá mé dall ar stair na conventions seo. Cá bhfuil Max? Tá sé ina thost le tamall anuas. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 846 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 01:06 pm: |
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>Ní ammanaí! Presque toujours sna "dea-leabharatha" >(féach thuas) a léann foghlaimeoirí na Gaeilge agus >daoine nach iad. B'fhéidir, siocair gur Béarlóirí iad don chuid is mó agus gur léire daofa sin gur défhoghar atá in "au" ná in "aw"... Is cuma liom an norm, is é a bhfuil suim agam ann an fhírinne. Níl ’s agam cad chuighe a bhfuil trascríobh fóineolaíochta in achan leabhar fhoghlamtha agus nach míníthear am ar bith áit ar bith cad é atá ar chúl na bhfóinéim sin, cad chuige nach dtabhartar rud níos closáilte don chaint agus níos léire? mar shampla, maidir leis na consain chaola 7 leathana: maoin /mi:n’/ mín /m’i:n’/ Cén leabhar a míníthear inti go bhfuil /m/ (m leathan) cosúil le [mw] ? Cé a thuigfeadh, de réir na trascríbhinne /mi:n’/, go n-abartar "mween" ? Gan trácht ar fhuaimniú na r-annaí. Sin an fhadhb, dar liom. Ins na leabharthaí foghlamtha, baintear feidhm as cuid mór conventions nach míníthear áit ar bith go cruinn. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 382 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 01:41 pm: |
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quote:Cén leabhar a míníthear inti go bhfuil /m/ (m leathan) cosúil le [mw] ? Tá beagán de sin ar leathanach amháin in Teach Yourself Irish (Ó Sé & Sheils). I quote: me abhair ( mind) (pron. m yow ir) Agus beagán níos mó in Learning Irish, mar shampla (still quoting): We might represent bó as /b uo:/, and buí as /b ui:/. Ach tá /b uo:/ rótheibí, dáiríre, don fhoghlaimeoir. Déarfaidh sé go glcoiseann sé BOH ar na téipeanna, ní BWOH... agus an ceart ar fad aige. Aontaím leat (faoi dheireadh!) go mbeadh sleamhnóga úsáideach sna transcriptions. |
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Des Johnston Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 03:55 am: |
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Yes, well, it appears I've unleashed something. I was at Tara, the place on the hill, NW of Dublin, in July with my family. And, as it turns out, after 18 years as a land use planner with public and private entities, I am about to open my own little shop and hang a shingle off the eave. Here in Calif, there are a slug of such shops with the name TerraNova. My accountant suggested Terra Firma. Anyway, just scouting out names. And I confess, I also thought about the O'Hara plantation. Seems pretty cheesey now. Open to suggestions. Genuine Gaelic may be a tough sell in this business. Des |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 383 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 12:07 pm: |
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Hi Des, quote:Genuine Gaelic may be a tough sell in this business. Go with "Tara Nua" then. After all, the airline Aer Lingus took a considerable liberty with the Irish word "loingeas" (= fleet), respelling it to make it internationally pronounceable. |
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Liz
Member Username: Liz
Post Number: 15 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 05:29 pm: |
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Des, before you name your shop why don't you write out the words "Tara Nua" on a piece of paper and show it around to your friends to see if they can pronounce and remember it. I expect a lot of Americans would pronounce the 'tar' in 'tara' like the 'tar' they lay over the roads. I could be wrong, though. What exactly will you be doing in your shop? Is it something like landscape design? Or designing housing developments and parks? Maybe we can come up with a few ideas for names if we know a little more about the details. |
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Daisy Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 06:13 pm: |
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I think most Americans are familiar with the name Tara since it's quite common as a first name for girls and Nua seems easy enough to pronounce. |
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Des Johnston Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 01:17 am: |
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Thanks all for your suggestions. Liz, I will start with one long-term contract (3 to 5 years) managing the entitlements for a large urban expansion project. Will do the initial design for the conceptual land use plan, and after that manage the process. The client is motivated to incorporate innovative farmland preservation policies, as well as other habitat-sensitive and neo-traditonal town features (we're in rural Central California). My background is in environmental review (analysis and mitigation) of urban development, and my little shop will probably take that up again as this big project winds down. Thanks for asking. Des |
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Robert Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
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"After all, the airline Aer Lingus took a considerable liberty with the Irish word "loingeas" (= fleet), respelling it to make it internationally pronounceable." Always wondered about that... "internationally pronounceable" Like Hiberno-Oirish people can pronounce /Lon'g'as/ i nGaeilge anyway... |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 849 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
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So far, I didn't notice that "Lingus" was an Anglicisation for "loingeas"!! Actually, Airfleet would have been "Loingeas aeir" for an Irish-thinking person. The elements in "Aer Lingus" are once again in the English word-order. IRISH ISN'T A GERMANIC LANGUAGE !!! |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 850 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:52 am: |
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Loingeas is /Leŋ´əs/ in Donegal. |
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Robert Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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Loingeas is /Leŋ´əs/ in Donegal Yea, missed the nasal and typed /a/ for /@/ /Loŋ´əs/ |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 390 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 02:36 pm: |
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quote:Actually, Airfleet would have been "Loingeas aeir" for an Irish-thinking person. The elements in "Aer Lingus" are once again in the English word-order. Níl aon locht ar "loingeas aeir", ach féach go bfhuil na comhfhocail seo a leanas ann: aeriompar - air-transport aerionad - air-base, aerlíne - airline aerluas - airspeed aerspás - air space etc. Cuid sheanbunaithe den teanga seo is ea an comhfhocal. An rud is mó a chuireann mearbhall orm sa liosta thuas ná na difríochtaí i litriú an Bhéarla: air-transport (le fleiscín) airline (gan fleiscín) air speed (le spás) Where's the rhyme or reason to that? |
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Enfield
Member Username: Enfield
Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 03:23 pm: |
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The Anglicised word 'Tara' in Irish placenames; Tara, tarbh, bulls. Tara, Teamhair, a residence on an elevated spot commanding an extensive prospect/view or a lofty place. Tara, the assembly place. Tara, Teamh-air, the wall of Tea (wife of Heremon). This is my first post, and townlands and Anglicised words are my 'thing'. Enfield |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 851 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 04:10 pm: |
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>Níl aon locht ar "loingeas aeir", ach féach go bfhuil >na comhfhocail seo a leanas ann: >aeriompar - air-transport >aerionad - air-base, >aerlíne - airline >aerluas - airspeed >aerspás - air space >etc. Níl chiallaíonn sin gur foclaí maithe atá iontu. Is féidir cibé rud a scríobh agus foclaí a chumadh ar nós cuma leat. Mo bharúil, muna mbíodh ach Gaeilg ag na daoiní a cumadh na foclaí sin, tá mé cinnte nach mar sin a chumfadh siad iad. >Cuid sheanbunaithe den teanga seo is ea an comhfhocal. Fadó, cinnte. Ach an mbainfeadh cainteoirí dúchais feidhm as sin le foclaí nuaidhe go nádúrtha? Níl mé cinnte. Le accordeon a ráidht, cumadh "bocsa ceoil", ní "ceolbhocsa", an dtuigeann tú. Teach an phobail, ní "pobaltheach" srl. >air-transport (le fleiscín) >airline (gan fleiscín) >air speed (le spás) >Where's the rhyme or reason to that? Tá níos mó eolais agat ar a’ Bhéarla ná atá agamsa ! :-) |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 393 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 07:08 pm: |
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Dúirt an Cinsire: quote:Níl chiallaíonn sin gur foclaí maithe atá iontu. An seachnaíonn tú na comhfhocail seo chomh maith: leabharlann, amharclann, bialann ? Céard faoi: sráidbhaile, eochairsciath, scig-gháire, léirmheas ? (Message edited by dennis on October 04, 2005) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 852 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 02:56 am: |
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>An seachnaíonn tú na comhfhocail seo chomh maith: >leabharlann, amharclann, bialann ? Ní focal -lann ach iarmhír. Chan abróchaí "tá mé sa lann sin" le "I am in that place" a ráidht. >Céard faoi: >sráidbhaile, ceart go leor, ach an focal nuaidh é? Ní headh. >eochairsciath, más sean fhocal atá ann, ní chiallaíonn sé go mbaintear feidhm as an dóigh sin le foclaí nuaidhe a chumadh. Ní chumfadh Gaeilgeoirí dúchais an lae inniu foclaí mar a ghéanfaí in am na Sean-Ghaeilge. >scig-gháire, léirmheas ? Más foclaí iad atá sa teangaí le fada fada, ní chiallaíonn sé go mbainfí feidhm as an bhealach chumtha sin sa lá inniu i gcaint na Gaeltachta. Más foclaí nuaidhe iad, a cumadh sa Chóiste Téarmaíochta nó áit ineacht mar sin, ní chiallaíonn sé ar chor ar bith gur mar sin a deirfeadh cainteoirí dúchais. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 394 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 01:07 pm: |
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Séard atá á rá agat, má thuigim i gceart thú, ná nach fiú biorán aon chumadh nó nuáil mura dtagann sé as béal Mhicilín Gug. Tá na focail aerlíne, etc. i bhfoclóir a chuir cainteoir dúchas as Loch an Iúir in eagar. Níl a fhios agam cé a bhí ar an gCoiste Téarmaíochta (atá faoi choimirce Fhoras na Gaeilge anois) ag an am sin, ach bíodh geall go raibh cainteoirí dúchais ina measc. Nílim sásta beag-is-fiú a dhéanamh de thuairimí na ndaoine léannta sin. http://www.irish.ie/foras/default.asp?catid=50 quote:a cumadh sa Chóiste Téarmaíochta Is maith liom an íomhá sin mar scigaithris, mar sin féin: daoine i bpeiriúicí bána i gcóiste órga ag brostú ar fud na tíre ag bronnadh focal nua ar an daoscarshlua, ar nós rud éigin as úrscéal le Terry Pratchett! |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 856 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 04:39 pm: |
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Is cuma liom cé a chumas na foclaí sine: sin an fhadhb atá ann nach gcumann siad foclaí mar a chumfadh cainteoirí Gaeltachta a leithéidí. Bhí ’n t-ord "déterminant-déterminé" in úsáid i Sean-Ghaeilg, ach níl níos mó anois, cuir ceist ar cibé cainteoir Gaeltachta, agus muna smaoiteann sé i mBéarla chan abrann sé aerlíne ná a leithéid go deo. Nuair a amharcaim ar fhoclaí nuaidhe Acmhainn, is léir nach bhfuil ins a’ chuid is mó daofa ach cóip don fhocal Bhéarla. Tóg an focal Béarla agus scríobh le litriú Ghaeilge é, nó tóg an cor cainte Béarla agus aistrigh focal ar fhocal é, nó tóg an comhfhocal Béarla agus aistrigh é, leis an dá mhír in ord a’ Bhéarla. Fiafraim daom féin cá mhéid focal Gaeilge a chum lucht na Gaeltachta ins a’ chéad leath don 20ú haois, a bhfuil a míreannaí ins an ord déterminant-déterminé. Dóigh róshean agus mhínádúrtha atá ann sa lá inniu. Ach amháin leis na daoiní a bhfuil níos mó Béarla ’na gcionn ná Gaeilg dhúchasach. Téarmaíochtchoiste (nó -chóiste :-) ), Gaeltachtúdarás, cailínchara, maithoíche, idirlíonshuíomh, Gaeilgmhúinteoir... Tá cuma na Sean-Ghaeilge (Seanghaeilgechuma?) nó na Gearmáinise orthu sin. Mór an t-ádh nach ndéanann siad comhfhoclaí mar sin an t-am ar fad. Amannaí thig dóigh na Gaeilge (Gaeilgedhóigh?) ar aist ina gcionn. "feic thú" (< see you ) ;-) |
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Des Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 01:44 am: |
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On Liz's advice, I've shared the idea of the business name "Tara Nua" with some friends. Californians pronounce the Tar in Tara as "tear," like to tear a piece of paper. Overall, the name has not made a great impression. It's not a "memorable" enough name for some; not catchy enough. Maybe something with a couple more hard consanants, or with an otherwise familiar ring. Was looking at available office space today, in a building called Shannon Parcade, the first floor of a parking structure. Maybe something with a spin on Shannon. Anyway, yes Liz, subdivision layouts and urban master plans is essentially it. |
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Tara Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 10:01 pm: |
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Hi, So, I just found this site by searching google for "Teamhair Pronunciation." I am going to ask a slightly different question, and hopefully not unleash TOO much of a flurry of new discussion. My name is Tara. (My Mom is Melanie, the name came from Gone with the Wind, so she got my name there). However, I have a love of Celtic culture, as well as some Celtic ancestry (Welsh mostly, but some Irish). So I like to think the O'Hara's named Tara (the plantation) for Teamhair (the ancient capital of Ireland). I even visited Teamhair on the requisite post-college backpacking trip. Anyway . . . I would like to use the name Teamhair sometimes (I won't bore you with the reasons). So . . . can someone help me with the pronunciation? I say my name "Tear-uh" (as in tear a piece of paper, the rote answer I've used for years), not that it matters. I appreciate it! (As a side note, if anyone can pronounce Marchogwr (horse rider, feminine form) in Welsh, or tell me the Irish or Gaelic equivalent, I'd be eternally grateful!) |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 251 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
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Teamhair I guess the easiest way to get close enough would be to say the word "tower" but change the o to an a. |
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Tara Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 10:26 pm: |
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Is that a long "a"? So, pronounced like "Tay-were"? So no "m" at all? Sorry, I am very slow. :) t ps. It is funny. When I was a child, sometimes I spelled my name "Terra" because I thought it was better somehow. But now I love my name! pps. Good luck, Desmond! I am a transportation/land use planner. :) |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 253 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 11:05 pm: |
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The ea sound in teamhair is usually pronounced as the a in hat. There are actually no h's in Irish. The letter is used to indicate a change in the pronounciation of the consonant before it. In this case the mh becomes the sound of w. Soooo, t + (a as in hat) + w + ir = Teamhair |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 253 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 11:05 pm: |
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The ea sound in teamhair is usually pronounced as the a in hat. There are actually no h's in Irish. The letter is used to indicate a change in the pronounciation of the consonant before it. In this case the mh becomes the sound of w. Soooo, t + (a as in hat) + w + ir = Teamhair |
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Tara Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
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Thanks, Pádraig! I am going to assume that Tawir (phonetically) is two syllables, and not three (i.e. Ta-wir and not Ta-wuh-ir). If that is correct, no need to respond. Thank you again! Blessings of a lovely Autumn to you! Tara (Teamhair) (Tawer) ;) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 870 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 07:12 am: |
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Need to palatalise the initial t-... it is slender ! And to palatalise the alveolar r as well. |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 254 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
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Go raibh maith agat, a Lughaigh, ach "palatise" agus "alevolar" níl fhios againn. |
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Tara Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 01:49 pm: |
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Ok, final question, since I am just starting out on the road to learning Irish, and don't get any of the pronunciation things yet, like palatalising, etc. So . . . what would be the most acceptable pronunciation of Teamhair, for a Californian with that boring monotone we have ;) so that an Irish-speaker wouldn't want to kick me in the shins? Please sound it out, since it is tough to understand over text. Go raibh maith agat! |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 257 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 03:03 pm: |
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A Theamhair, a chara, First of all let me say that friend Lughaigh surely knows his stuff, and his instructions in pronunciation reveal considerable grasp of the sciences of both phonetics and linguistics. When he says to palatalise the T in Teamhair, he's probably dead-on right. Likewise when he says that same T is slender, he's most likely correct. There are certain others who refuse to try to communicate pronunciatian via this forum because there are so many variables involved that its impossible for everyone to come to a concensus. Then there are those of us who are willing to follow a pronunciation guide based on sounds which we know to be familiar; ie, a as in hat, ch as in chicken, and so on. That being said, and with all due respect to the Lughaighs and the Quiet Men, I believe that the following applies: The slender T as in the Irish teach is like the ch in the English chicken. Now the ea in the Irish teach is pronounded as the a in a California hat. Combining the tea we get cha as in the English Chat. The mh is given the sound of W and when followed by the AIR in Teamhair, we get that OW sound as in the English cow spelled with an A instead of an O. If you're living in Southern California, find a Mexican and ask him to say the word shower. (Chyower) It should be pretty close to Teamhair. The following is copied from one of those cheap tourist's phrase book/dictionaries that are supposed to help you find the bathroom. Cá bhfuil an bóg? "While the Irish language has possessed a single modernised spelling for a number of decades now there is, unlike English, no single 'preferred' pronunciation so that the speech of each Gaeltacht region is equally acceptable." In other words, it's your name. Pick the sound you like the sound of, and bain sult as. |
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Aaron
Member Username: Aaron
Post Number: 23 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 03:46 pm: |
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You can hear quite a bit of pronounciation here: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/gaeilge/lessons.html Btw, if you have any more questions, feel free to start a new thread. There is plenty of room!! |
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Tara Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 05:07 pm: |
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Ok, I am done on this question, then. Pádraig, thanks many many times over for your thoughtful and thorough response. I think I've got it, and I also appreciate your comment about choosing a pronunciation I like best, anyway. Thanks also to the others on this list for your help. Slán go fóill! :) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 871 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 05:21 pm: |
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>The slender T as in the Irish teach is like the ch in >the English chicken. True in Donegal younger speakers' Irish. Not true elsewhere and for most older Donegal speakers. |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 258 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 05:31 am: |
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This thread began with a question about Celtic clipart. I don'y know what all is in this folder, but you might wish to explore it. http://register.freeze.com/(k0df33apei5scb4531u25b45)/index.aspx?&pop=2&s=clipartsample&f=684028&reftrid=65 68554&fn=Google-223690838[clip%20art]Phrase |
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Djwebb2002
Member Username: Djwebb2002
Post Number: 111 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 06:27 am: |
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Arial Unicode MS font needed to understand the following post: Lughaidh, I have read somewhere on the Internet that the slender t that sounds like a "ch"is not exactly the same as the english "ch", which has no palatalized quality. I believe the following chart is correct. Munster slender t: /t/ Connaught slender t: /tʲ/ Ulster slender t: /tɕ/, not exactly the same as the English /tʃ/ /ɕ/ (curly tail c) is a symbol found in Chinese, romanised as “x” I believe the correct transcription of Teamhair is /tɕʰaːwəɾ̝ʲ/ Note 1. Antony Green posted a PDF somewhere on the Internet about how some Irish consonants are aspirated (with puff of air) so I believe the above transcription is correct. Note 2. Lughaidh, you previously said that the transcription of slender r is /ɼ/, a symbol used for the Czech r+zh sound. But now I have found out that this symbol was withdrawn as an official IPA symbol in 1989, and the symbol for the Czech sound is now /r̝/ (note the symbol underneath the r to indicate apical pronunciation). However, the Czech sound is not palatalized, and is a fricative trill rather than a fricative version of a flap. For these reasons, I believe that the correct symbol for the Irish slender r is: /ɾ̝ʲ/ (a palatalised voiced apical alveolar fricative flap). (Message edited by djwebb2002 on October 08, 2005) (Message edited by djwebb2002 on October 08, 2005) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 872 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 07:36 am: |
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>Munster slender t: /t/ >Connaught slender t: /tʲ/ >Ulster slender t: /tɕ/, not exactly the same as the >English /tʃ/ The symbols don't appear, unfortunately. Munster slender t isn't exactly like a normal t. You should use [] for phonetics: // are used for phonology... ;-) >the symbol for the Czech sound is now /r̝/ (note the >symbol underneath the r to indicate apical >pronunciation). The symbol doesn't appear here. Where have you found it? >However, the Czech sound is not palatalized, and is a >fricative trill it's not a trill. And there isn't any difference between the Czech ř and the Irish slender r. >rather than a fricative version of a flap. For these >reasons, I believe that the correct symbol for the >Irish slender r is: /ɾ̝ʲ/ (a palatalised voiced apical >alveolar fricative flap). It is, indeed. |
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Djwebb2002
Member Username: Djwebb2002
Post Number: 112 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 07:42 am: |
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Lughaidh, I placed a PDF containing the symbols for the points I made at www.hskvocabulary.com/slender.pdf Please have a look. you said: And there isn't any difference between the Czech ř and the Irish slender r. ARe you sure? I am not querying your expert knowledge, just trying to find out how you know. Is the Czech ř palatalised? It says on the Internet that it isn't. The information that the old IPA symbol for the Czech ř has been withdrawn can be found in a Wikipedia article called "caron". the symbol doe snot appear in the IPA chart. (Message edited by djwebb2002 on October 08, 2005) |
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Djwebb2002
Member Username: Djwebb2002
Post Number: 113 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 08:06 am: |
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Obsolete IPA symbols can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_in_Unicode#Obsolete_and_nonstandard_symbols, but you need Arial Unicode MS to view the page properly |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 873 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 08:06 am: |
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I have heard both Czech and Irish native speakers, and there's no difference between the 2 sounds. The symbol on your PDF file for the slender Irish r means "more closed trilled r". That isn't the sound we have in Irish nor in Czech. Where have you seen that new symbol? For Irish, i don't think it's a one-tap palatalised closed r. For Ulster /t'/, the sound depends mainly on the age of the speaker. Older speakers will make the sound you gave for Connaught. Younger speakers will make a kind of "ch". I don't remember what the Chinese x sounds like (it's a bit like Irish slender ch but pronounced in a slightly different place, más buan mo chuimhne), but I'm not sure it is the sound that younger Donegal speakers make. The t- in Teamhair isn't aspirated. Aspirated consonants don't exist in native Irish, as far as I know. (Message edited by lughaidh on October 08, 2005) |
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Djwebb2002
Member Username: Djwebb2002
Post Number: 114 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 10:30 am: |
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Lughaidh, I have answered these points in www.hskvocabulary.com/forlughaidh.pdf Antony Dubach Green holds that there are aspirated consonants in Irish - see the link in the PDF. (Message edited by djwebb2002 on October 08, 2005) (Message edited by djwebb2002 on October 08, 2005) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 874 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 03:27 pm: |
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I don’t agree with all that Green has written (and there are other scholars who don’t agree either). For example, in phonetics, the Irish slender c isn't [k(j)] but [c]. It's not the same thing. Irish single slender l isn't really palatalised, and I don't think we should put any palatalisation symbol after it. Just compare with Russian palatalised consonants: there are much more palatalised than the Irish ones (especially l, r, m, etc) Actually, it is possible that Czech ř isn't palatalised as such. Maybe, Czech ř and Irish /r'/ could be written in the IPA by a [z] with a symbol showing it's pronounced a bit more back in the mouth. |
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 26 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 04:48 pm: |
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Lughaidh a scríobh: > it's not a trill. And there isn't any difference > between the Czech ř and the Irish slender r. Really? AFAIK even some Czech natives (e.g. ex-president V. Havel) cannot pronounce ř properly. It's a difficult sound, the last sound of the language learned by Czech children at the age of five or six years or so and sometimes it isn't learned at all. I never heard of Irish slender r being of such difficulty. And, at least to my ears, there are differences. Lars |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 876 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 08:38 am: |
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That sound isn't that difficult. You just need to listen to it carefully and to try to make it. About Czech ř, maybe it doesn't exist in all Czech dialects, that's why some Czechs can't pronounce it. It doesn't exist in Slovak, so maybe in Eastern Czech dialects it doesn't exist either (but I don't know). >I never heard of Irish slender r being of such >difficulty. Because almost every learner pronounces the Irish r's like the English ones !!! Maybe there are differences according to the dialect. At least, I can tell you that in Donegal, they pronounce the r's exactly like Czech ř : no difference at all. Now, in other Irish dialects, there may be differences. I'd have to hear Munster and Connemara Irish to see if it's the case as well (hard to find well-pronounced Irish on the web !) |
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Djwebb2002
Member Username: Djwebb2002
Post Number: 115 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 10:56 am: |
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Well, Lughaidh, if I find a passage in Learning Irish that is particularly replete with r's, I will post an audio clip. R's are always the most difficult letter to learn in all languages. Lenin never mastered the Russian r, and many English people cannot say the English r properly either, using a labiodental v instead. There are 2 types of r's used in France, 2 in Portugal, 2 in Sweden, and at least 4 in England (trilled r, labiodental v, postalveolar approximant and uvular r in Northumberland). So r's are always a problem. |
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Icmcgrath
Member Username: Icmcgrath
Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2005
| Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 01:30 am: |
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Hi im irish but have no gaelic skills. I was told "Slainte mo chara" at the end of a conversation and i really want to know what this means. Please help. Thank you Irene |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 2187 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 08:07 am: |
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Your good health, my friend. But mo chara is pidgin Irish. Slán, a chara would be "Goodbye, friend (vocative)" which may be what was intended. |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 184 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 07:19 pm: |
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"2 types of r's used in France" strictly speaking, there are much more. Not only does it depend on the geographic variant one speaks (I think an inventory of at least 4 different r's has been made), but it also depends on the phonetic context in which it appears (where it will be either voiced or unvoiced: compare "corde" with "porte"). |
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