I am trying to learn Cois Fhairrge Irish, and the formation of plurals is frequently at odds with standard Irish, and Learning Irish does not indicate this. I have been trying to use Foclóir Póca to keep an eye on standard Irish, but I am unsure of the following:

1. garraí, pl garranta. Is the standard Irish plural garraithe? (The plural is not actually given in the FP dictionary, just the class of nouns this belongs to).
2. tarbh, pl toirbh. FP seems to imply (by saying this is an m1 noun) that the standard plural is tairbh?
3. uncail, pl uncaileacha. Is the standard plural uncailí or uncailaithe?
4. Learning Irish has a word for "auction", candáil, pl candálacha. However, this word is neither in FP or Dinneen's. FP does have ceant, pl ceantanna, and Dinneen's has canntáil. Are these three versions all the same word in different dialectal forms?

In case anyone else is using the same textbook and is interested, I have worked out the following standardised plurals:

1. anam, pl. anamnacha, standard pl anamacha
2. athair, pl. athaireacha, standard pl aithreacha
3. bóthar, pl. bóithrí, standard pl. bóithre
4. feilméara, pl. feilméaraí. This is a nonstandard form, the standard form is feirmeoir, feirmeoirí
5. fuinneoig, pl. fuinneogaí (actually Learning Irish is contradictory on the plural of this word. On pages 10 and 11 it says -a, but on pages 219 and 277 it says -aí). Standard: fuinneog (broad g), fuinneoga.
6. leabhar, pl. leabhartha, standard pl. leabhair.
7. peictiúr, pl. peictiúir. This is another nonstandard form. Standard is pictiúr, pictiúir.
8. áit, pl. áiteacha, standard pl áiteanna.
9. talamh, pl. taltaí, standard pl. tailte.
10. tír, pl. tíreacha, standard pl tíortha.

I am not sure whether the semi-standard, semi-dialect spellings used in Learning Irish reflect a written tradition or not. What I mean is, when Cois Fhairrge native speakers write "window", do they write "fuinneog" or "fuinneoig"? Is Learning Irish showing the final g as slender merely in order to aid learners to learn the Cois Fhairrge pronunciation, or is he implying that speakers of the dialect would write this and that books or articles written in Galway Irish would write this? It is not really clear to me why he didn't go the whole hog and write the book in a spelling that illustrated fully the pronunciation of the dialect. For example, why didn't he spell anamnacha as anamnachaí?

Here are the plurals according to An Foclóir Beag, at:

http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/


garraí [ainmneach uatha]
garraithe [ainmneach iolra]
garraí [ginideach uatha]
garraithe [ginideach iolra]


tarbh [ainmneach uatha]
tairbh [ainmneach iolra]
tairbh [ginideach uatha]
tarbh [ginideach iolra]


uncail [ainmneach uatha]
uncailí [ainmneach iolra]
uncail [ginideach uatha]
uncailí [ginideach iolra]


The genitives are included, too.

I don't know the answers to the rest of your questions, but I've had the same frustrations and would like to know the answers, too.

(Message edited by aaron on September 24, 2005)

I think that most Standard Irish plural forms are the Kerry ones. 'Cause they aren't Conamara ones nor Donegal ones!

quote:

I am not sure whether the semi-standard, semi-dialect spellings used in Learning Irish reflect a written tradition or not. What I mean is, when Cois Fhairrge native speakers write "window", do they write "fuinneog" or "fuinneoig"? Is Learning Irish showing the final g as slender merely in order to aid learners to learn the Cois Fhairrge pronunciation, or is he implying that speakers of the dialect would write this and that books or articles written in Galway Irish would write this? It is not really clear to me why he didn't go the whole hog and write the book in a spelling that illustrated fully the pronunciation of the dialect. For example, why didn't he spell anamnacha as anamnachaí?

Good questions.
I don't believe Spiddelers (can I say so?) would write "fuinneoig" or "fuinneogaí" but "fuinneog" and "fuinneoga". They learnt to write Irish in school like anyone else (except us, of course )
Google has found 545 "fuinneoga" but only 60 "fuinneogaí" (the pronounciation -aí is more widespread than Connemara).
There are 22.600 "ainmneacha" but only two "ainmneachaí" in Google.
Well, "Fuinneoig" has a writing tradition. It's old dative case. But the plural "fuinneogaí" has not, though it is perhaps an old dative, too (which was written "fuinneogaibh").
I believe the author that he had to make difficult decisions to illustrate the pronounciation.
Although it would had been better to use Standard spelling throughout as far as possible and illustrate the pronounciation only by a phonetic transcription which is necessary, anyway.

BTW: These problems were often discussed here (e.g. in this thread)

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on September 24, 2005)

(Message edited by Lars on September 24, 2005)

There is a very interesting site on Irish noun declension with good PDFs to download at http://dingo.sbs.arizona.edu/~carnie/Pages/IrishNominalDeclensions.html

quote:

I have been trying to use Foclóir Póca to keep an eye on standard Irish

Bain triail as an bhFoclóir Beag atá ar líne ag:
http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/
Enter your word in standard spelling and you'll get full declensional forms for nouns & adjectives, and full conjugations for verbs. Punch "diúltach" or "ceisteach" and you'll get the negative and interrogative forms. Is áis iontach é, agus tá chuile rud i nGaeilge!

I wouldn't get too hung up on plural forms in Irish. Even when writing basic "standard" expository prose (that is, writing in the ordinary orthography, with no special effort to represent dialect), most people don't stick strictly the dictionary plural forms. Often (I'd say very often!) a writer will use more than one variant, even in the same piece of writing. Thus you'll see:

crann > crainn, crainnte
leabhar > leabhair, leabhartha
alt > ailt, altanna

In informal speech, the variations proliferate, with longer, "plural-piled-onto-plural" morphologies making a bigger showing: crainnteachaí, leabharthaí. But that's a very relaxed, "kitchen table" register. I once asked Lughaidh why he didn't use more colloquial French here, and he replied something like "cela ne ferait pas sérieux" in a sober discussion of linguistics. Similarly, Irish writers -- unless they're telling a joke or recounting a folk tale -- will stick to "crainn" or "crainnte" and avoid the like of "crainnteachaí", because "ça ne ferait pas sérieux".

You're mixing everythin up. There are language levels (?is it the right term in English) in French, I meant I don't write in slang here. The way I speak French is standard anyway, I mean it isn't Burgundy, Northern, Lorraine dialects etc.

In a language, you have dialects, and language levels (literary, slang, familiar, etc). To write in slang about scientific matters would look odd. To write in a dialect is all right.

In French I write in the standard dialect (not in slang) because it's mine. In Irish I write in Donegal dialect because it's mine. But I wouldn't write in Irish slang, you see (anyway I don't know much about it).

I don't see why Standard Irish would seem more serious than Donegal Irish.

Lughaidh, the word you are looking for is "language registers".

They should have picked a genuine living dialect as the standard, instead of creating an artificial standard. Languages do need standardisation. You can see in Dinneen's dictionary that there are frequently 5 or 6 ways of forming a plural.

>They should have picked a genuine living dialect as the >standard, instead of creating an artificial standard.

I agree with you.

quote:

I don't see why Standard Irish would seem more serious than Donegal Irish.

People build up perceptions based on their exposure to the written word. Read the 1,176 pages of An Bíobla Naofa, or the 900 pages of the Stair na Gaeilge, or just the newspapers, or any one of hundreds of books on non-fiction subjects, and you'll find standard spelling throughout, and no powerful allegiance to any dialect. In writing Donegal dialect the way you usually do, you give us idiosyncratic spellings like "a' ráidht" for "ag rá" -- a spelling I've never seen in print anywhere other than on this board, by the way, although I imagine it exists somewhere -- although even in a book specifically on the dialect, An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Uladh, Dónall Ó Baoill (teangeolaí agus cainteoir dúchais) reports the forms used as "ag rá" and "ag ráit". Spelling such as "a' ráidht" are so eccentric and they call attention to themselves so stridently ("Look at me! I know dialect!") that they stand between the reader and the text, sometimes almost overpowering the content itself with their excessive coloration. That is not what one expects of serious expository prose. Of course, most writers grounded in Donegal Irish never write anything like that, certainly not in non-fiction. You have no competitors in the dialect "competition", Lughaidh! :-) You take the cake.

quote:

They should have picked a genuine living dialect as the standard

This kind of after-the-fact kibbitzing from across the water from non-Irish-speakers drives me fucking insane! Standard Irish, such as it is, is pretty much a done deal. There is a long 20th century history of jostling among competing trends and ideologies. For a long time, Munster Irish was put forward as the de facto "genuine living dialect" standard. That's what was mainly taught in Dublin and throughout populous midsection of the country.

quote:

Languages do need standardisation.

Yes. And we could spend the next year going over what happened next, and why pure Munster Irish did not end up as that standard. Read some books/articles/journals. Meanwhile, get off the "they should have" Monday-morning-quarterbacking. Besides, face it: Irish speakers who use he language don't give a shit what you think... and certainly not until you can express it in Irish.

Dennis, this is a little bit of an over-reaction! The person who I addressed my comments to, Lughaidh, was not offended by them. Have you stopped to ask yourself why so many people who are starting out learning Irish have a lot of questions and comments on the dialect vs. standard question? It is because the task of learning is made more difficult by the "very Irish" way the Irish authorities have gone about promoting the Irish language. Even the question of "which textbook shall I use?" requires a much deeper understanding of the background situation compared with choosing a textbook on French, say. If I overlook the hissy fit, there is a kernel of useful comment in your message, and that is that there is such a thing as Standard Irish that cannot be unpicked. So learners just have to learn a spoken dialect and also the written Standard, whether they like it or not. Yes, you are right. I don't expect Irish speakers do give a damn what I, or millions of other learners, think about their dialects and the standard. You say, not until I can express it in Irish, and probably in fact not even then. But that is not at issue. Don't forget this is my thread. I began this thread, which you did not need to reply to, because I am learning Irish through a book, reputedly a good one, Learning Irish, which requires me to look up every single word in a dictionary to find out what the standard forms are. I have never had to do this in learning any other language - and am therefore right to say that establishing a less artificial standard would have made sense, and am entitled to say so whether every Irish speaker in the world is interested in my thoughts on the matter or not.

I might as well add this, seeing as I am going to rile you up anyway. Irish Gaelic - yes it annoys me too when native speakers try to insist the language is only called "Irish", so we all have our hissy fit moments - was the language of at least 50%, maybe more, of my ancestors. And being of a conservative frame of mind, I romanticise my ancestors and am interested in learning Irish GAELIC. However, I am not a member of the Irish nation - and I don't approve of the ridiculous knee-jerk anti-English element in Irish culture. Who is to blame for the plight of Irish? Why, the ENGLISH, who are to blame for everything else as well, despite the absurd way the supposedly Free State has gone about protecting its "first" language. The good thing is that Gaelic will be around for the whole of my life - long enough for me to learn, and maybe even to try to read the fables and legends of my ancestors in Old Irish. After I am long gone - Gaelic will die out, but I won't be there to see that, or to hear all the ridiculouos complaints about how the English - as you referred to people from "over the water" - are TO BLAME. Maybe you can follow advice from your wonderful president, Mary McAleese, who recently explained how MULTICULTURALISM was good for the GAELTACHT. All those Yoruba-speaking Nigerians are so anxious to move to the Connemara and, they will certainly learn fluent Irish Gaelic when they do and will make sure not to commit any crimes - so you are running your own country very well indeed, with no help from people on this side of the Irish Sea! GOOD LUCK!

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 25, 2005)

quote:

Don't forget this is my thread.

An leatsa an téad seo?! Is fíor gur thosaigh tú í. Agus ar nós chuile théad eile, téann sí siar agus soir. Is le gach duine a theachtaireacht féin, sin an méid. Má chuirtear barúil ar bith faoinár mbráid, tá cead againn uilig í a bhréagnú nó a thrasnú.

>People build up perceptions based on their exposure to >the written word. Read the 1,176 pages of An Bíobla >Naofa, or the 900 pages of the Stair na Gaeilge, or >just the newspapers, or any one of hundreds of books on >non-fiction subjects, and you'll find standard spelling >throughout, and no powerful allegiance to any dialect.

Read Irish literature then: O Criomhthain, Mac Grianna... what do you see?

>In writing Donegal dialect the way you usually do, you >give us idiosyncratic spellings like "a' ráidht" >for "ag rá" -- a spelling I've never seen in print >anywhere other than on this board,

Look for "ráidht" in O Dónaill's dictionary !

>by the way, although I imagine it exists somewhere -- >although even in a book specifically on the dialect, An >Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Uladh, Dónall Ó Baoill (teangeolaí >agus cainteoir dúchais) reports the forms used as "ag >rá" and "ag ráit".

Because in that book he uses very phonetic spellings, in order to make the reader figure out how they are pronounced in the dialect. He also writes "ceannocha mé" etc for the same reason. I use a spelling that you can see in most Ulster literature: standard Irish rules + other things that are specific to Ulster irish, and they are more "etymological" than O Baoill's spelling in An Teanga Bheo (because his aim is just to give the pronounciation, so his spelling is simplified compared to the "etymological" Ulster spelling). So I write "ceannóchaidh mé" and "ráidht". The "-óchaidh" ending was the normal ending in Classical Irish; that ending has been retained in speech in Ulster, not in the other dialects, so you don't write -óchaidh but -óidh in the standard.

>Spelling such as "a' ráidht" are so eccentric and they >call attention to themselves so stridently ("Look at >me! I know dialect!")

You're imagining things :-) . I write like that because it's the way I naturally write. Standardising my Irish would be like deforming it, to me. To give an artificial aspect to a genuine dialect. What will the dialects become if nobody use them (in writing, in this case?). There is too much Standard irish stuff on the web, not enough Gaeltacht Irish. And the people who want to learn a dialect, is it easy for them, if there's nothing in dialect on the web? (and even in learning books!) And when they come to the Gaeltacht, they'll be so surprised and maybe disappointed if they notice that local people don't use what they (the learners) have learnt in books! They'll say "conas atá tú?" (with English accent) to Tory people, and will wonder why Tory people smile at them, etc.

>that they stand between the reader and the text, >sometimes almost overpowering the content itself with >their excessive coloration.

Standard Irish also has an excessive coloration for me.

>That is not what one expects of serious expository >prose.

Here I am not writing an article on Irish linguistics. If I would write an article in Irish, I would use a more standard spelling, because that is what scholars do. But here, on the web, with many learners and many people interested in dialects, I think it's better to write in my natural way. Anyway it would take more time tome to write in Standard Irish or in another dialect that isn't Donegal, because I would have to think, and remember what is standard / Munster / Connaught. I don't need to think so much when I write in Donegal Irish, just have to write down what I would say in speech.

>Of course, most writers grounded in Donegal Irish never >write anything like that, certainly not in non-fiction.

I have not invented that spelling. I have learnt to write like that by reading Ulster Irish literature books.

>You have no competitors in the dialect "competition", >Lughaidh! :-) You take the cake.

Mór an truaigh. Ba bhreá liom níos mó Gaeilge Gaeltachta a dh'fheiceáilt anseo, ach chan minic a tchím. Scríobhann Jonas i nGaeilg dheas, mar shampla. Bulaí fir !

Ní féidir leat an craiceann agus a luach a bheith agat. Deir tú ar láimh amáin:

quote:

I don't see why Standard Irish would seem more serious than Donegal Irish.

Agus ar an láimh eile:

quote:

If I would write an article in Irish, I would use a more standard spelling, because that is what scholars do.

Is ionann sin agus a rá nach bhfuil litriú canúnach ar nós "a' ráidht" sách "sérieux".

quote:

or to hear all the ridiculouos complaints about how the English - as you referred to people from "over the water" - are TO BLAME.

Huh?? Ní dúirt mé faic faoi na Sasanaigh, ná faoi aon mhilleán a bheith orthu.

>Ní féidir leat an craiceann agus a luach a bheith agat. >Deir tú ar láimh amáin:
>quote:I don't see why Standard Irish would seem more >serious than Donegal Irish.
>Agus ar an láimh eile:
>quote:If I would write an article in Irish, I would use >a more standard spelling, because that is what scholars >do.
>Is ionann sin agus a rá nach bhfuil litriú canúnach ar >nós "a' ráidht" sách "sérieux".

Chan siocair go bhfuil sé níos dáiríre a scríobhfainn alt sa chaighdeán, ach siocair go ndéanann achan scoláire é, sin an méid.

Scríobh Djwebb

quote:

Dennis, this is a little bit of an over-reaction! The person who I addressed my comments to, Lughaidh, was not offended by them.

I believe I am the first Irish person to post on this thread. As such I would like to second what Dennis wrote:

quote:

Besides, face it: Irish speakers who use the language don't give a shit what you think... and certainly not until you can express it in Irish.

I find the recurrent discussions on Standardisation versus Dialect, which are carried out in English, amusing, but pointless.

Scríobh Djwebb freisin:

quote:

and I don't approve of the ridiculous knee-jerk anti-English element in Irish culture.

That statement exposes your shallow view of Irish culture. Read, as Dennis suggested, a number of journals. There are very few people who exhibit that alleged knee-jerk reaction - and in any case I took Dennis' comment, as I'm sure it was meant, to refer to any foreigner who lectures the Irish on what they should do with their language without actually having the knowledge of the language to judge competently.

At the risk of getting mown down in the crossfire here, I'd like to make a few observations in an attempt to refocus the topic.

David is entirely correct that the Caighdeán Oifigiúil makes learning the dialects more difficult because of some of the choices made during the process of standardization.

As several here have reiterated . . . the Caighdeán is a done deal, and we have to live with it. As I see it, some live with it more resignedly than others. The complaints are most noticeable among beginner learners, but I have certainly heard learned Gaeilgeoirí bemoan some of the choices made for the Caighdeán.

For beginners, coping with the Caighdeán often means doing what David did in the first post of this thread -- trying to compare what is found in reference books which follow the Caighdeán to that which is found in the many dialect-specific books and courses. It's a very unfortunate and frustrating way to learn a language.

For those of you who have been regulars here & on other lists, I sympathize with your weariness over hearing these same complaints over & over -- it seems like they come up at least once a month on the Daltaí English/Irish board. But I'd wager that there is at least one brand new member on the board per month, and probably several. Of these, probably at least one is a beginner. And he/she is finding out the hard way about the Caighdeán vs. dialects.

Unless you're a native speaker and never had to face this problem when you learnt Irish, when you see a newbie show up and express frustration with the Caighdeán . . . try to remember back to when you were new to studying this language and don't be so quick to jump all over him/her about bringing up this problem. For them, this isn't the umpteenth time they've discussed it, it's probably the first!

Yes, the Caighdeán is here to stay, yes, he/she will need to get over it/get used to it, but cut them some slack if they're new to this. If you need to vent your spleen about a newbie and their problems with the Caighdeán, why not do it in the Irish-only section where few beginners lurk? Posting vitriol here is only going to turn away beginners, not help them.

"Maith sibh" to Aaron, Lars & Dennis who actually tried to help address David's issues. To anyone who helped turn this thread into a mudsling match, dearg-náire oraibh.

Cionadh, thank you for your comments, and I apologise to you and Dennis and any others for my negative contribution to this thread.

And I want to say that Dennis has posted many times to help me with various problems and I am very grateful for that. He is a mine of information, as are all the regular posters on this board. I am particularly grateful that he found the Irish name for the townland in County Down that I am able to trace my ancestry from. I don't think I will need to ask about any other plurals now that you have pointed me to http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/.

I have studied many languages before and so have a bit of an academic slant on learning languages. Many people have told me that transcribing Irish into the IPA should not be an overwhelming concern as a beginning learner, but I simply learn better by studying phonology through the IPA. This is why I think Lughaidh must come in for some special praise and admiration for his messages over the past few weeks on this board. He has helped me nail down many aspects of pronunciation that I did not fully understand from Learning Irish.

I didn't previous realise that criticising the standard would be controversial, or controversial coming from a non-Irish speaking foreigner. I won't make any more comments on this forum re: dialects v. standard.

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 25, 2005)

>I find the recurrent discussions on Standardisation >versus Dialect, which are carried out in English

an síleann tú nach mbeinn ábalta díospóireacht a dhéanamh i nGaeilg? Scríobh mé i mBéarla fá dtaobh dó sin siocair gur toisíodh air i mBéarla. Agus ionas go dtuigfeadh na foghlaimeoirí/tosaitheoirí í, sin a' méid.

I love the bitchyness!
Maith sibh! ;-)

quote:

an síleann tú nach mbeinn ábalta díospóireacht a dhéanamh i nGaeilg?

Ní shílim. Agus ní raibh mé ag tagairt duitse ná do thuairimí. Ní aontaím leat, ach tá bunús agus eolas lastair den mhéid a bhíonn le rá (nó le raidht!) agatsa. Bhí mé ag caint faoi

quote:

... any foreigner who lectures the Irish on what they should do with their language without actually having the knowledge of the language to judge competently.

Níl sin fíor fútsa.

Amen, Aonghus! This forum is full of pompous speech about how Irish schools should be run, how the language should be spoken and many of the posters have never been there and have no grasp of the language. And, as Dennis has said, the real Irish speakers don't give a hoot.

I should clarify that I have no objection whatsoever to anyone who has an informed opinion. So I'll rephrase what I said above:
any foreigner person who lectures the Irish on what they should do with their language without actually having the knowledge of the language and the country to judge competently.

I disagree with Lughaidh on several things, but I acknowledge that his opinions are based on knowledge. I just draw different conclusions.

Aonghus, maybe the solution is that people in the early stages of learning Irish should be banned from the list?

Given that the Irish language is being revived in Northern Ireland - part of the United Kingdom and no longer officially claimed by the Republic of Ireland - I am not necessarily a "foreigner", depending on which part of Ireland is focused on. I am very interested in whatis happening in Northern Ireland and follow it closely - and that does not give me a right to claim "knowledge" of the Republic's affairs (although I don't need the "right"; I can just comment at will). But in point of fact, unless any of us has dual British-Irish citizenship, we are all "foreigners" in one part of Ireland. Can I have your assurance that you will never comment on Northern Ireland on this list?

On the point about people having knowledge of the language and country to comment: comment does not require a licence, or if it does, where do I apply? I studied Chinese and Russian at university, and have never studied Uighur, a language spoken in the far west of China, but I see no reason why I could not comment on the impact of the change of script in the region from Arabic to Western to Arabic again on literacy in the region. You may not like it - but anyone can comment on whether the ROI's language policy has been successful or not. What has annoyed you and Dennis is not that the opinions expressed are wrong as such, but that I have dared to comment on what, according to you, is only for Irish people, or people in the Gaeltacht, or people fluent in Irish, to comment on. In fact my comment was one sentence long, and this has been an unreasonable reaction to it.

Yesterday, I thought. OK, I'll go along with what they want. Today I realised: this is nonsense. You would ban learners from the list, or at least are trying to discourage them. As I made clear, the reason why I don't accept that the ROI's language policy has been well-thought-out, is the struggle I have had in finding out **how to pronounce Irish** (I have a dictionary with "official pronunciations", but soon discovered these were not authentic), and the struggle I have had in keeping up with standard forms while learning from a dialect-based book. I think I am entitled to comment on **my own experience** of that.

Let me add that I am not Finnish and don't speak Swedish or Finnish fluently, but I strongly disagree with Finland's language policy which has seen towns like Vasa flooded with Finnish speakers who have taken over the language. You see: I didn't bother asking for "permission" from the Finnish nation to express a view - I just expressed it! And it matters not a whit to me if all 5m people in Finland disagree with me - or even object to my having an opinion in the first place. Please everyone, get over yourselves.

(Message edited by Djwebb2002 on September 26, 2005)

I apologise if I sounded harsh. However, there is a difference between comment and "Mother knows best" lectures;
My comments were a reaction to your reaction to Dennis.

And I maintain my statement, based on your comments, that your knowledge of Ireland and Irish is shallow.

Note that I modified my comment. I don't give a toss where people are from. But I do object to being told what the language policy of my country is by someone who is not well informed. Most of the material on that policy, and on why particular choices were made in standardisation, are in Irish - so until you can read more, you will not be well informed.

(Message edited by aonghus on September 26, 2005)

[QUOTE]I apologise if I sounded harsh. However, there is a difference between comment and "Mother knows best" lectures;
My comments were a reaction to your reaction to Dennis.[/QUOTE]

That makes more sense.

[QUOTE]And I maintain my statement, based on your comments, that your knowledge of Ireland and Irish is shallow.[/QUOTE]

My knowledge of Irish is admittedly shallow. I have to admit to you that I have studied 5 chapters of Learning Irish. I am not claiming it is anything but shallow. But this site is for people whose knowledge of Irish is shallow but who are trying to do something about it. That's why it's called Daltaí na Gaeilge. My comments were not based on deep knowledge of Irish, but rather stemmed from the difficulty of getting a deep knowledge of Irish if you see what I mean. But if you examine my comments to Lughaidh, you will see that I was not really making any great pronouncements ex cathedra on the Irish language or Ireland's language policy. He and others answered a few of my questions. I intervened in the further discussion between Lughaidh and Dennis only to tell him the English word for "language levels", ie registers. I added a dozen or so words about the fact that a living dialect was not chosen as the standard, and then Dennis erupted. I can see why you would react to my reaction to Dennis, but not why you or Dennis would react to my original throwaway comment in passing. One does not need a detailed knowledge of Irish to make the comment I made: it stands as a fact valid for all languages that where a living dialect has been chosen as any language's standard, learners can learn that dialect **without** having to check each word against the standard. This does not require knowledge of a single word of Irish in order to be seen as true.

On my ignorance of Ireland: I do not know as much about Ireland as I do about England. And there are foreign countries such as China about which I know much more than about Ireland. Ireland stands as a country that I have done some reading on - but my knowledge of Northern Ireland's history and politics and general affairs is much more deep than anything I know about the Republic of Ireland. I am not claiming to be an expert on Ireland - and I have made no comments here that would imply deep knowledge of the country. However, I did detect knee-jerk Anglophobia, rightly or wrongly, in Dennis' post.

[QUOTE]Note that I modified my comment. I don't give a toss where people are from. But I do object to being told what the language policy of my country is by someone who is not well informed.[/QUOTE]

I am glad you have modified your comments. If you look through this thread you will see that I have nowhere sought to "tell" you what your country's language policy is. I think maybe your comments are based on a misunderstanding that I might have made such comments; I haven't. As a free spirit, I will comment on whatever I like. But I draw the linie between commenting, which I am free to do, and telling you what Ireland's language policy is, which it would be absurd to do.

[QUOTE]Most of the material on that policy, and on why particular choices were made in standardisation, are in Irish - so until you can read more, you will not be well informed.[/QUOTE]

I have not commented on any particular choices. I have not even commented on the reasons that lay behind standard Irish. Were I to comment on such matters, I would need to read Irish to garner the basic information, but I do not propose to comment on that subject. I do not need to read such material in Irish in order to say - and this is my **only** point - that it is an added difficulty I have never confronted before in any other language to have to learn dialect and standard in parallel. This point stands as simply a fact - a fact that confronts the beginning learner and that cannot be denied.

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 26, 2005)

I would suggest, djwebb, that instead of issuing long diatribes, you hit the books. Aonghus and Dennis are two of the brightest contributors to this forum and any Anglophobia you see is in your own eye. Five chapters into the language is not enough to really know anything about it. And a bare knowledge of Northern Ireland does not make you a non-foreigner. Your learning problems are the same as anyone else has had but you take the cake for whinging.

I read your comment

quote:

They should have picked a genuine living dialect as the standard

as a command rather than a comment. If it wasn't intended as that, I apologise.


There are many good reasons why the Standard is a compromise. Other languages do not choose a dialect a standard, it just happens that way because that is the dialect of the writing/governing caste. Ireland did not have that luxury. No time now, come back later.

Mr.Mysterious "Quiet man" would djwebb not be more than entitled to feel 'anglophobic' as he, like almost everyone else here is working for the better of An Ghaeilge? Is there not 'method to his madness' ??

I mean IT WAS the English invaders who are responsible for the near death of our language. It was The English who suppressed it. They murdered my ancestors - and maybe yours. They took our land and left us to die. They barred us from schools / from our religion / from almost every positive aspect of life. But im sure you already know that..and nobody here can change history but merely work towards a better future.
Dj is as welcome as anyone else here to whinge as much as he likes.. to voice whatever opinion he has etc etc..
Perhaps yes his advocacy of his opinion in this case was a little precocious but we learn by questioning, making mistakes agus araile..
Dj continue with your learning - - Practice makes perfect!

Domhnall, Djwebb a chuir Anglophobia inár léith, tharla gur Sasanach é.

quote:

they murdered my ancestors - and maybe yours. They took our land and left us to die. They barred us from schools / from our religion / from almost every positive aspect of life

Léamh ró shimplí ar an stair, a mhac.
Murach ár gcine fhéin a bheith ag marú a chéile agus ag goid mná a chéile, ní bheadh na Normáinaigh taghta an chéad lá riamh.

Pé scéal é, tá na fiche sé chontae neamhspléach le breis agus ochtó bliain. Is iomaí tír eile a rinne níos mó chun teanga a thabhairt thar nais ó bhruach an uaigh i dtréimhse níos lú. Tá sé in am againn stop de bheith ag lorg an milléan a chuir ar dhaoine eile.

Domhnall, djwebb was assuming that Dennis was anti-English because of Dennis' post about foreigners and the language. Nowhere did Dennis specifically mention any ethnic group nor was the remark addressed to dj personally. So off goes dj into a couple of long screeds having nothing to do with what Dennis said. He's sitting on the pity pot because the language is harder than expected. He's not really a "foreigner" because he has some small knowledge of Northern Ireland altho none of Ireland. Now there's Brit brass for you. He needs to hit the history books as well.

Dear all,

I consistently have got the impression that Domhnall, because he has a campaigning spirit around the Irish language, rises above petty arguments and concentrates on what he sees as the main thing, the promotion of the Irish language. Other people here get involved in petty spats. It is amazing to read the archives and see the problems that have occurred!!

Personally, I take a "warts and all" attitude to history. We should see all the negative aspects of England's history in Ireland, as well as anything positive. It might seem to some that there is nothing positive, but the Unionist community lives in Ireland too, and if there is ever to be a reconciliation in Ireland the fact that more than 1 million Irish people in the north-east have a different perspective on history has to be taken into account. Even Sinn Fein has recognised this in the context of "parity of esteem" between the communities.

Yes, half or more of my ancestors are Irish (nearly all with Gaelic surnames, with one Ulster-Scots surname, assuming that Turbitt is Ulster-Scots, in the mix), about one-third are English and 1/8 Finnish. So, yes, Domhnall is correct: "the English" may have treated my Gaelic ancestors badly, but I am not Irish and do not share any resentment of England. I regard the relations between the English, Welsh, Scottish, Gaelic Irish and Ulster Scots as a fascinating tapestry of history, culture, conflict etc - but I am well disposed to all of these population groups. It may sound odd, but I can relate to both Nationalist and Unionist communities - I admire the community spirit and the traditions and history that both seek to preserve. For most people on this list, Irish is a part of their nationalism. For me it is nothing of the sort and in my case doesn't have any political ideology attached to it, certainly not Irish nationalism. And I am delighted that some Unionist people are beginning to study Irish in Northern Ireland. I think this is a development everyone on the list should welcome.

Ireland had a chance to restore Irish. I am going to ignore all the blather about non-Irish-speakers not being qualified to comment on this subject. It is clearly true, regardless of whether I speak Irish or not, that the ROI could have set up an Irish-speaking administration, but your own politicians have always used "playing the green card" as a cheap way of winning votes. The blame does not lie solely with England - look to your own politicians, including the ones who told the EU when Ireland joined that there would be "insurmountable obstacles" if Irish diplomats were expected to speak Irish, even though they ought to speak Irish to have their jobs. And what about the PM who decided, in a breach of the Irish constitution, to tell a TD not to speak in Irish in the Dail, because he couldn't understand? Ireland has been independent for more than 80 years, and so has taken responsibility for its own affairs for many decades. Yes, one could say that the old Northern Irish law forbidding demonstrators from carrying signs in Irish was simply an outrage, but internal culprits need to be found for the ROI's failure to restore the language. Never mind the "occupied" 6 counties - the 26 counties seem to "occupied" by a worthless bunch of self-serving politicians.

No, I do not feel as "foreign" in the presence of Irish people as I do in the presence of French, German, or other nations. There is a difference. Britain and Ireland have had thousands of years of interaction, and most English people in London, Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester have Irish ancestors. Neither am I pitying myself studying Irish, and the language is NOT harder than expected. I have had Myles Dillon's TYI lying around for about 20 years, and so was aware of the general level of difficulty that a learner would face, and using Learning Irish is a little easier than expected in fact. I find it odd that "Quiet", posting as an unregistered guest, uses an IP address registered in Marlboro New Jersey. Quiet man, you are not in Ireland, not even in Europe, but thousands of miles away. So, get off your soapbox. You have told me to "hit the books", but I think one chapter of Learning Irish a week is quite sufficient. If I did any more, I am sure pompous members of the forum would post to tell me I was approaching learning Irish in the wrong way...

My, how you do go on. You have more "I's" than a field of potatoes. Yes, I live in NJ and many of the posters here do too and this site is in NJ. Are we not allowed to post on this site? And I still stand by what I said.

"Unionists...have a different perspective on history"

I'm afraid many of them have no 'history'. Most of their 'glorious' battles were won in the Republic in places like Offaly or Meath. Prior to Long Kesh, many of the loyalists had no idea of irish history i{at all}. Many believe that they are the Cruithin, and had i{their} land taken from them. Gaelic culture did become dominant in south Scotland, and the Gall-Ghael even for a time in north england, so if they were to bat off that brick, then that would be one thing, but as for what they believe themselves...

And no, i don;t hate Unionists. Most of my lecturers are from the north, and I have decided not to bother to know from whcih camp (except were obvious)

"the 26 counties seem to "occupied" by a worthless bunch of self-serving politicians"

Fair dinkum, but it is a greater social malaise as a result of loss of collective self esteem (if I may extend a psychlogical construct to a group) that is reflected in the actions of politions and part of the reaon Irish was not brought back.

Shame in some collective sense is still part of the Irish experinece. Disrepect for the land is another. Rubbish is all about the place and no one cares. So like, there are wider problem of opting out of civil life, not just in language.

Tá saoirse ag an tír seo ó 1922 agus Poblacht ó 1948.Níl milleán le dul ar na Breatnaigh(Albanaigh,Sasanaigh,Briotánaigh Bige) as nach bhfuil mórán Gaeilge á labhairt sa tír.Tá an milleán ar ár muintir féin agus na cumainn, na h-eagrasaí a cuireadh i gceannas na teanga san am atá caite.Táimse 42 bliain d'aois agus nuair a chuaigh mise ar meánscoil i gColáiste Éinde i mBóthar na Trá , Gaillimh (1975-1980)bhí na Galladaigh(Béarlóirí) ag breathnú anuas orainn ach ní chuirim millleán ar na scoláirí mar d'fhoghlaim siad é ó a muintir ag baile agus d'fhan sé leo.Tá an ghráin ar theanga ar nós ciníochas i gcoinne stráinséirí as tíortha comhthíocha , ní bhfaigh muid réidh dó choíche agus is fearr glacadh leis mar ní féidir an saol a athrú.

Wo-Ho Aonghus yes pet i do know something about cursaí staire - Fuair mé an dara thoradh IS AIRDE IN EIRINN don Ardteist sa bhliain 2004. Agus tá teastas a'am ón Aire Oideachais mar gheall ar sin. So im sorry but yes i do know my country's history and know it god damn well grma!
You're saying the excuse of a state established in December 1921 was "neamhspléach" Em you're wrong there pal. The 26 counties were still included in the BRITISH commonwealth - Oaths were sworn to the English King etc etc.. And it was only in 1949 that the Republic Of Ireland Act was approved by the Oireachtas.. So maybe its YOU who has the simple view of our history.
To say it was us to oppressed ourselves, who murdered ourselves, who sent our men to the west indies as slaves is the most ridiculously stupid thing i've ever heard. Led thoil bíodh ciall agat!
Dj you're right in relation to Sinn Féin this is taken from their list of priorities - "Representation in the Dáil and Seanad for Irish citizens living in the north of Ireland;
Engaging with unionism about the nature and form a new united Ireland will take.
By planning for Irish unity and by demonstrating that unification can lead to a better society for all the people of this island, nationalists will go far towards persuading many unionists that they can have a secure future in a new, united Ireland."
Republicans have learned - the hard way - that violence is not the answer and its through working together we will make a true peace on Ireland. This is reflected by the now army without arms that is Oglaigh na hEireann. Meanwhile unionists carry on attacking Catholic schools,churches,businesses,houses,children and saying the IRA's decommissoning is far from the truth.

" Unionist people are beginning to study Irish in Northern Ireland" Well members of the protestant church - who were usually *not always* unionists have always studied Gaeilge. Dubhghlas de hIde our first President was indeed a Protestant - of course not a unionist tho.
Dj, Eire doesnt have a PM - we have a Taoiseach grma!

To clarify, the English invaders were directly responsible for the decline of our culture.
Also indirectly through the way they ruled the country - I mean if you were starving would you not change your lifestyle? If your family were threatened..put out of home..sent abroad..or whatever demonic method the English SCUM (And Yes SCUM is EXACTLY what they were *not what english people ARE today) would you not change your lifestyle? I would. As such how could you blame Irish people for adapting the english way of life? Those who stopped using it, those who saw it as bogger latin/barbaric/dead can hardly be blamed - For it was the English who put made them view the langauge, culture agus araile as such.

Eh not all politicans are bad cough.. sneeze.. me.. cough.. grma!

B’fhéidir go mb’fhearr toiseacht ar ’thread’ úr: níl baint ar bith níos mó eadar mur gcaint agus an bunábhar (standardised and non-standard plurals)...

Bhuel, tharla go bhfuil a speaclaí uaithne ar Dhomhnall, fágfad ann é.

Breá go leor!