Most commentators seem to agree that the Gaeltacht will be around for quite a few decades to come, although the news that only 10,000 of the 80,000 inhabitants of the Gaeltacht speak Irish every day is rather depressing. In reality, this figure will dwindle yet further, and I predict that the Aran Islands and Tory Island will be the last redoubts where Irish is spoken as a community language. I read somewhere that there are 15 families in the Meath Gaeltacht receiving the government grant to Irish speaking families with school age children. 17 families receive the grant in Waterford. Those 2 Gaeltachts will not last long. Some of my ancestors came from Cork, and so I am annoyed to read that only 34 families receive the grant in the Cork Gaeltacht. The other figures are 100 in Mayo, 260 in Kerry, 800 in Donegal and 2000 in Galway. These figures are all approximate as I can't find the article on the Internet where I read the figures, but I remember them anyway.

When is a language dead? They say Manx died out in 1964, when the last native speaker died. If at some point near the end of the 21st century the last Gaeltacht is wrapped up, that will mean the end of the last area **where Irish is spoken as a matter of course as a community language**. But it will not mean the death of the every last native speaker, as there are fluent mother-tongue speakers of Irish in every county. For example, there are people who have moved from the Connemara to Dublin and are themselves mother tongue speakers of Irish, who maybe do not get to actually speak it regularly in Dublin, but they are still native speakers, and these will be around a lot longer than the Gaeltacht itself. It is even possible that native speakers speaking Irish can propagate their language as a mother tongue for several generations in the Galltacht. Eg 2 Connemara natives move to Dublin and get married, decide to bring up their children speaking Irish before they go to school, and send the children to a gaelscoil. That child would be personally a mother-tongue speaker of Irish, even though he had never lived in the Gaeltacht.

Now: the Irish census tends to ask bizarre questions such as "do you speak Irish every day or once a week"? It should try to identify 1) who speaks Irish **fluently** to a native-speaker or near native speaker level; and 2) how they learned it. To answer #1 they need to sift the wheat from the chaff. As more than 1 million claim to "speak Irish", the census enumerators should ask, "can you listen to an Irish-language film and understand it all the way through without recourse to a dictionary? Can you read Irish-language newspapers with complete understanding without the help of a dictionary? Can you read full novels in Irish without a dictionary?" The answer to that question would give a proper indication of how many truly fluent speakers there are. Estimates say that the number is 100,000, but it would be good to find out using the method I have indicated. Studies show that most people in the Gaeltacht *can* speak Irish, even if they don't actually do so on a daily basis, and so the number of mother-tongue speakers still around is relatively large, and spread across all 26 counties, and maybe all 32 counties (although I am not sure there are too many native speakers in Antrim).

The answer to #2 means that there are 3 types of fluent speakers of Irish: a) mother-tongue speakers, who spoke Irish before going to school, having learned it from their mothers; b) pupils or ex-pupils of gaelscoileanna, many of whom claim near-native-speaker proficiency in Irish; c) adult learners who have gained fluency in Irish as an adult. Now, once there are no longer any fluent mother-tongue speakers about, the maintenance of a language becomes artificial, as with Manx and Cornish. You could conduct your schooling through the language, and you could learn it fluently as an adult, but without any mother-tongue fluent speakers, the language would be said to be "dead". This is why Manx is referred to as dead, even though fluent non-mother-tongue speakers do exist.

I feel that even after the Gaeltacht peters out, there will be many 10s of 1000s of mother-tongue speakers left, and they will stick around for a very long time. Not until the last centenarian who learned Irish as a mother tongue as a baby died will the language be officially "dead", although clearly that centenarian, as with the last native speaker of Manx, will be living in an English-speaking area and rarely using his mother tongue. It may be that Irish-language enthusiasts will prevent the language from ever dying out as a mother tongue. There may continue to be a small number of mother-tongue speakers passing the language on as a first language even though they are living in a totally English-speaking area. Even if the language dies out in terms of natural transmission, as with Manx, gaelscoileanna will still exist. Irish language lovers should make sure of that.

yes but is it enough? the short-sightedness of most of the irish is enough to drive a gaeilgelover clear up a wall....

i have posited in the past that all schools in the country should be 'phased in' to being essentially gaelscoileanna...but it shouldn't be unfeasible to do for the schools in the gaeltacht in the short term...

>They say Manx died out in 1964

1974.

Antaine, what proportion of schools in the Gaeltacht are gaelscoileanna? It ought to be a lot. If it is not it is a national scandal.

i think that anything less than 100% should be raising eyebrows...if we can't get the kids in the gaeltacht speaking at least 8 hrs a day what hope is there?

All gaeltacht schools are supposed to be Irish medium schools. That is not the same as a Gaelscoil - gaelscoileanna are schools set up outside the gaeltacht by commitees of parents, with the support of a Non governmental organisation, with the express purpose of providing Irish Medium education.

http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie


The Government Body, newly founded to address problems in both Gaeltacht schools and Gaelscoileanna is Comhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta.

http://www.cogg.ie/gaeilge/

They recently published a survey on Gaeltacht schools, exposing the pressure those schools are under due to families either never haven spoken Irish, or not speaking it to their children.
Many Gaeltacht schools are small one or two teacher rural schools, and are simply overstretched dealing with children who have no Irish coming to school.

That report is here:
http://www.cogg.ie/gaeilge/foilseachain.asp?id=37&cid=234

A summary in english is available.
That is why the Dept of the Gaeltacht is refocussing its efforts on making sure parents chose Irish as the/a language of the household at the birth of the children

Also some effort is going into preschool education.

In many ways, the battle is lost if most children in a school come from english speaking homes. It cannot be comapred with a gaelscoil in the galltacht, where parents have made a concious decision to send their child to the school, and can be expected to support the school.

And then there is the problem of the "Cur i nGéillteachtaí" - places which are Gaeltacht only in name.

(Message edited by aonghus on September 20, 2005)

Thank you, Aonghus. I thought that all schools in the GT would be Irish-medium, but couldn't be absolutely sure. I think pupils with no Irish in the GT should get intensive remedial training. Is English allowed in the playground? I find flogging tends to work a treat for recalcitrant pupils speaking the wrong language:-)

Flogging -or any other compulsory measure - will not work if the parents disagree. And many parents expect Gaeltacht schools to provide an education in English for their little darlings.

"many parents expect Gaeltacht schools to provide an education in English for their little darlings."

then they should move. soon.

I'm pleasantly surprised to find that they're - at least in theory - irish medium schools.

this is what i meant, though, when I said that i think gaeilge is going to become a strong second language for a wide group (perhaps 'subculture'?) of superdedicated learners. the irony is, i see the gaeltact becoming the place where no one speaks it, while irish speaking households and increasingly full gaelscoileanna become commonplace throughout the rest of the country.

we'll have to see what happens as more and more gaelscoil students run the whole program through, and start families of their own.

Flogging -or any other compulsory measure - will not work if the parents disagree. And many parents expect Gaeltacht schools to provide an education in English for their little darlings.

Aonghus: flog the parents!!

Djwebb, bheul, sin ceist eile ar fad.

Sin an fáth go bhfuilim go láidir ar son srianta ar céad pleanála sa Ghaeltacht - do bhunadh na háite, agus do dhaoine le gaeilge amháin.

quote:

srianta ar cead pleanála sa Ghaeltacht

Tá feachtas ar siúl sa Bhreatain Bheag le tamall anuas chun rud éigin mar sin a chur i bhfeidhm sa "Welsh heartland". Bíonn altanna air ó am go chéile ar an suíomh Eurolang. Is íogair an cheist í! Bhíodh "housing covenants" ceangailte leis na cáipéisí sa tír seo, chun daoine "áirithe" a choinneáil amach as an gcomharsanacht. Ní English second-home buyers ná English-monoglots a bhí i gceist sna covenants sin, ar ndóigh!

>agus do dhaoine le gaeilge amháin.

? Cad é? An bhfuil níos mó ná Gaeilg amháin acu? 'Bhfuil tú 'maíomh daoiní a mbeadh Gaeilg na hAlban nó/agus Manainnis acu i dteannta le Gaeilg na hEireann?

"cead pleanála (do bhunadh na háite agus do dhaoine le gaeilge) amháin" a bhí i gceist agam

Baineann seo le habhár:

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=news&article_id=111

quote:

Tá sé i gceist ag na daoine atá páirteach in Airdeall, súil a choinneáil ar iarratais phleanála agus aird na n-údarás pleanála a dhíriú ar an dochar don Ghaeilge mar theanga bheo pobail, a d’fhéadfadh tarlú de bharr mórfhorbairtí tithíochta agus eile a cheadú i gceantracha Gaeltachta, gan chúinsí teanga a bheith curtha san áireamh

quote:

Sa chás go gceadaítear mórfhorbairtí tithíochta nó eile sa Ghaeltacht, gan choinníollacha maidir le cosaint agus caomhnú na Gaeilge mar theanga pobail, beidh Airdeall toilteanach achomharc a dhéanamh ar an mBord Pleanála, bunaithe ar an dualgas reachtúil atá ar gach údarás pleanála le ceantar Gaeltachta faoina chúram, féachaint chuige go ndéanfar oidhreacht teanga agus cultúir na Gaeltachta a chosaint is a chaomhnú tríd an bpróiseas pleanála.

Firstly will you just stop that "native speaker" rúbáiste dj - the language of Ireland is Irish. As such ANYONE born in Ireland who speaks Irish is a native speaker.
It absolutely wrecks my head people saying that - Im sure you mean to say Muintir na Gaeltachta instead. I wasnt born in the Gaeltacht and dont live there now - Gaeilge is my first language and i do my degree through Gaeilge blah d blah. What am i so? A foreign speaker... Led thoil stop leis!!!
That pretty much makes some of what you say irrelevant..


"17 families receive the grant in Waterford. Those 2 Gaeltachts will not last long." I've just spent the last week learning Gaeilge in Waterford and studied their local economy (and of course their pubs... ) and im telling you it'll be there for plenty of decades.. I'll start a thread toro..

If the Gaeltachtaí disappeared tomorrow the language would still live. True one of its most precious resources (if not its most) will have gone. It's a great place to learn the language and 10,000's of daltaí go to it to learn the language on a daily basis. If such a thing happened - god forbid - the language will have just suffered another setback not a death. And anyways we aint gona let our Gaeltachtaí go! Never!

>Firstly will you just stop that "native speaker" >rúbáiste dj - the language of Ireland is Irish. As such >ANYONE born in Ireland who speaks Irish is a native >speaker.

Seafóid. Gabh a dh'amharc ar shainmhíniú "native speaker" i gciclipéid ineacht. All Irish schoolchildren are native speakers then? Yippeeee!

[QUOTE]I wasnt born in the Gaeltacht and dont live there now - Gaeilge is my first language and i do my degree through Gaeilge blah d blah. What am i so?[/QUOTE]

You are a ... native speaker!! I said in my earlier post - which I now realise I shouldn't have sent, being a non-Irish speaker based abroad - that even if the Gaeltacht collapsed, that would **not** mean the end of the Irish language as native speakers exist in all counties. I agree with you that those who speak Irish as a first language are all native speakers. Please excuse me if I speak out of place.

[QUOTE]"17 families receive the grant in Waterford. Those 2 Gaeltachts will not last long." I've just spent the last week learning Gaeilge in Waterford and studied their local economy (and of course their pubs... ) and im telling you it'll be there for plenty of decades.. I'll start a thread toro..[/QUOTE]

Domhnall, I should not have expressed an opinion on how long those Gaeltachts will last. Yes, please do post on this subject. It sounds fascinating.

[QUOTE]If the Gaeltachtaí disappeared tomorrow the language would still live. True one of its most precious resources (if not its most) will have gone. It's a great place to learn the language and 10,000's of daltaí go to it to learn the language on a daily basis. If such a thing happened - god forbid - the language will have just suffered another setback not a death. And anyways we aint gona let our Gaeltachtaí go! Never![/QUOTE]

Your positive attitude will surely infect others on this board. I look forward to all your posts.

"All Irish schoolchildren are native speakers then? " Más í Gaeilge a dteanga labhartha - yes!!

"Please excuse me if I speak out of place. " You have as much right as anyone to post here with whatever you'd like to say.

Its 12 at night here and im back and im up for coláiste at 6.30 so i'll do that post as i fall asleep during my corporate finance lecture (As gaeilge of course).....!

"Your positive attitude will surely infect others on this board. I look forward to all your posts." **Red cheeks** Go raibh mile a chara! Bead ag caint libh amárach..

>"All Irish schoolchildren are native speakers then? " >Más í Gaeilge a dteanga labhartha - yes!!

Gabh a dh'amharc ar shainmhíniú an fhocail "native speaker", aríst.

Abair, is mian le hEireannach atá 50 Gaeilg a dh'fhoghlaim. Théid sé chuig rangannaí oíche ar an Luan. I ndiaidh cupla bliain mar sin, tá sé ábalta Gaeilg a labhairt, giota beag. An cainteoir dúchais é?

Any child who starts speaking Irish between the ages of 1-10 is as a good as as child whose has Gaeilge as a first language. Kids have no problem switching mentally from one language to another, and the "voice in their heads" can just as well be Irish as English. So I think the "quality" of an Irish speaker is made no different if a it's a child's first language, or he begins learning it at 6, 7, 8 etc.

That would depend on whether the child is getting all his "Irish" from someone who understands nothing whatsoever about any aspect of the language, or from someone with a full and real command of every aspect of it, or from someone who is somewhere in between. Starting to speak Irish at the age of 9 or 10 in Dublin is certainly not like moving to Lisbon at that age and starting to speak Portuguese.

http://ohlone.ucsc.edu/~jim/PDFFiles/glot.pdf

Domhnall,
where do you do this degree 'in the Irish'? DCU?

There is also a book on business terminology i nGaeilge. do you know it?

As for the definition of a native speaker as anyonw Irish who speaks it, that is not a definition, more an opinion. If you was to disumbulate semantics, one a) who grown up in a monolingual space, and b) someone who moves there and get the same depth, may be the same years ago, but today, the learner can be more astitute than the 'native', and that is a sad fact of minority language situations...

Lughaidh is cainteoir duchais é.

I this is my course and to blow its trumpet - its amazing - its one of the most modern courses with subjects that are in demand - the course gets loads of dosh from the eu and it's from that the business terminology as Gaeilge was made..blah blah blah sin scéal eile.. Yep im in Ollscoil na Cathrach..

That's right i should have said - i am only voicing my own personal opinion about cainteoir duchais.