There are many things government could do if - a big "if" - they *really* wanted to preserve Irish. Ireland is a big place, underpopulated in fact. Why not build a new town from scratch with governmetn funding - say the way the UK govt built Milton Keynes with a special development agency - designed to be 100% Irish-speaking from the start. You would need to speak Irish fluently, or at least well, *before* moving there. Schools would teach Irish only (Ireland's need to be able to be a player in a globalized world does not mean that every single citizen needs to speak English - a monoglot Irish city or two would not hurt), and the best thing is that all government services and businesses woudl be in Irish only. People who didn't agree to this policy, wouldn't be allowed to move there. You could have lots of special grants and incentives. As well as native speakers in the Gaeltacht, there are large numbers of fluent speakers in the Galltacht, who *could* operate fully in Irish, but don't get the chance to. These might want to move to such an Irish-only new town. The beauty of the scheme is that Irish would come to be associated with job opportunities and modernity - i would be an urban thing. Only enthusiasts would move there anyway. Why don't Irish governments do this? The real answer: they don't want to revive Irish. They probably see it all as a waste of money, just something they need to appear to be going along with....

I thought that was how the meath gaeltacht got its start

I read about this a bit ago on a website for a New Town. Should find that URL again..

Antaine, the Meath GT was too small, and I am talking about a government backed plan to build a city of eventually say 100,000 people, where all services and jobs will be in Irish.

"I read about this a bit ago on a website for a New Town. Should find that URL again.."

Google: 'plan to save the irish language'
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/r.a.mccartney/baile_nua/main.html

Always attacked as been a fraud on this board, and then nobody says why it is a fraud. Did he get billions from the goverment wh dont know about....?

Djwebb2002,
to propose any such venture would lead to the loss in election of any rulng party who proposed it. Irish peopel have a thing about 'cost', so no stadium ever gets built, even tho they are generators of income. In other words the demograph that puts governments in power (over 50, hetrosexual, conservative) are not economicaly minded, but grew up in an era of client politics. Irish is nothing for the voter. In a way it is either unimportant, naggging, or an embarresment. Giving up ones 1700+ year establised culture for another, yet not identifying with that other culture (english) while relying on symbols of the past to hang identity on is bound to throw up lots of contradictions.

On that sense, most Irish people want Irihs names (Ballybrac etc), Irish 'brogue', Gaeilge, Hibero-English, music, dancing etc to disappear, but on the toher hand need something to not be English. GAA is perhaps the only element that is positivly Irish, yet today has little reference to anti-Englishness. Thats because it was normal in its arc. Before, during an after independance, it was vemenently anti-English, yet over the years it has changed and today for example, is the most embracing of ethnic minorities as a policy.

The reaction in Ireland to not become more Gaelic, in whatever form, but comtinue on the anglicising path, was akin to been locked up for years, raped every day, and after a prolonged effort to get partial freedom, walked about acting like the abuser, and telling everyone all was well. It could not be well, and any country that does nto undergo decolonialisation will ahve problems, and Ireland still has many hangovers from the Famine, British rule, and loss of native culture. It also shows the lack of character in ireland.

Anything that costs money without a tangible result will not be done by our politicians.If someone in politics or associates of theirs is not going to make a "killing" from Gaeilge then forget about it.Anyway The Irish electorate deserves its politicians.The politics of a country reflect back on its people."You're doing a heck of a job Brownie" mr Bush says to Mike Browne(FEMA Director) on CNN and a few days later he has to squirm as the press "maul" Brownie.Politicians and business in Ireland don't give a monkeys about the Irish language.90% of them don't use the language and it is of no relevance to their constituents/business sponsors/associates.
Ray Burke / Charley Haughie/ Liam Lawlor/Pádraic Flynn/Michael Lowry/ Bev Cooper-Flynn are examples of what drives our TDs.Greed money and land re-Zoning .
Forget the Irish/Health/Infrastructure/Homeless/people on the housing lists these are the same as the dispossessed in New Orleans .No Votes in poor people or a Trough for the Fat cat Politicos.

People would never move. Why would they, they work their arse off to pay for a mortgage for their house and buy their stuff, only to move across the country, just for the sake of a language? Why would people move from their home? Some people in the Gaeltacht, their families have been living their for centuries, why would they want to shift house for a new anonymous city where they don't know anyone and there's no sense of community?

It's good to see people coming up with ideas, I don't mean to dishearten you, but I don't think it'ld work too well.

There are incentives which government might offer to persons willing to relocate. Perhaps the principle of homesteading which was used in the US during the westward expansion in the 19th century and later with the opening of Alaska would attract "pioneers."

Hell, buy my house from me at market value, give me its equivalent on an acre or so of land, pay all moving expenses, and exempt me from taxes for the first 30 years; then guarantee me employment and salary or stipend equal to my current situation, and I'll move to the "new" gaeltacht -- or an old one for that matter -- and I can barely speak the language. But I'd sure as heck learn it in a hurry.

There is no fallow land in Ireland. The last set of Gaeltacht transferees (Rath Cairn/Baile Ghib) had to put up with stones and worse, so a new mass transfer of people would probably be ugly.

Dj i like your thinking.. Cúpla rud -
No this PRESENT govt doesnt really care faoi Ghaeilge. Eamon O'Cuív does ach sin an méid.
So vote for a party who care (And i know two)
" People who didn't agree to this policy, wouldn't be allowed to move there." I'd say the people who already live in this area would love that!
"I am talking about a government backed plan to build a city of eventually say 100,000 people, where all services and jobs will be in Irish." That figure is way OTT and unrealistic..
Im thinking why not instead develop an area in one Gaeltacht - aim at turning it into a town capable of expansion.. B'fhéidir an Cheathrú Rua. Think Big.

"Irish is nothing for the voter." It is for me. The first thing i look for. And i know for a fact im not alone.

"...just for the sake of a language? " Maybe some people care so much about their language that they'd be willing to change their lives for it. I would. But yes An Ghaeltacht is there and the only difference between an Ghaeltacht and DJ's proposal is that it'd be a town/city as opposed to country area.
People thinking like this is marvellous for athbheochan na Gaeilge fair-play daoibh ar fad!

Domnhall, I am not in Ireland and so won't be voting on the Irish language issue. But I have more Irish than English ancestors in fact. So that is my interest in Ireland and its history, culture, language and genealogy. Now, I know you don't want the board to be too political - and I don't know enough about Irish politics to comment - but I am intrigued as to which two political parties care about the Irish language. I suppose one is Sinn Fein. And the other?

As for the money issue: the amount of money the Irish state has put into the Irish language with no results means that it would be cheaper in the long run to do what I have suggested!! It is odd: politicians don't really mind pouring money into schemes that create jobs for them and bureaucracies, it is only the achieving of real results they don't care about! In point of fact, Ireland is already spending a lot on the Irish language.

there's more money in "preserving" the irish language than having preserved it.

To begin with, learners need a coherent, extensive, comprehensive course to work with — one that would show them step by step that everything about Irish and all its dialects, complex as it is, makes much more sense than they may think it does:

http:///search?q=cache:Hqrdkczu5QEJ:www.daltai.com/discus/messages /20/13314.html%3F1107043309+&hl=en

"Learning Irish" is good, and I trust "Colloquial Irish" is going to be good, but a much, much more thorough course is needed, such as already exists for serious learners of many other languages.

Peadar I studied Chinese, and there a graded courses that give not just an introduction to the language, but take you much further than that. Eg Book 1 and 2 on introductory Chinese, followed by Book 1 and 2 of intermediate Chinese, followed by Book 1 and 2 of advanced Chinese. There are competing sets of these, with lots of other books for newspaper Chinese, oral Chinese etc. Where does one go after Learning Irish? Is there a book for Intermediate Irish?

Our government could set up EPZs as George Bush wants for the devastated states in Southern US.There would be 5% tax on Irish Corporations setting up there provided 100% of business done in Ireland was thru Gaeilge only.The goods could be packed and sent but on-site work done only thru Irish.Internationals or multinationals just carry on as it is.Rebates on VAT ,Vat on Utility bills at 5%.
People still don't get it that all these are impossible because we took the "SUBSIDIES/GIFTS" from the EU.
We cannot offer such things now because the EU describes it as ILLEGAL. We in Ireland have to play by the tune our MASTERS in BRUSSELS send us.AT the moment we are an extension/outpost of our neighbours the Brits.Same BRANDS,SAME TV SHOWS, SAME LANGUAGE, SAME DRINKING HABITS
SAME RULES OF THE ROAD, SAME CARS, SAME NEWSPAPERS,
SAME FOODS, I could go on.SAME POLITICAL OUTLOOK STAY ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE AMERICANS AT ANY COST.I can't blame our leaders they after all put economic advancement before anything even human rights/culture/history

Ni-hao dj!
"I suppose one is Sinn Fein." Of course.. I could go on a big schpeel and prove it but its late at night and im going to the Gaelacht in the morning so maybe not ;)
"And the other? " An Comhaontas Glas mo chara - our counterparts in the green party believe it or not have many gr8 ideas dár dteanga :)

Yes politicans are ridiculous i know. *apart from me of course!!

No value for money has been got from the millions thrown at the language. Im sure more is spent on the teaching of foreign languages - even English alone than our beautiful Gaeilge ;( But without this money im sure the language would be in an even worse state.

"We in Ireland have to play by the tune our MASTERS in BRUSSELS send us." - - Ahhh now that's not strictly true. They want us to pay for our tap water. Eh no thanks. They want us to permit abortion. Eh dont make me sick. They want us to cut back our fish intake. Eh and leave Killybegs with 94% unemployment - wise up brussels. No thank you.
And lets not forget that we've got a lot more coming from europe than going to it - and that will remain so for the next 5 months.
It's true Eire is becoming more anglicanised ;(
That scares me and that's why im going to do something about it.. that's why im posting ar an bhforum seo.
Mickrua, we dont however have the same language - Whether it's the main spoken language or not as the case is, Gaeilge is the language of Eireann.
We now have so much money in Ireland maybe it's time to slow down a notch and pay attention to what has happened our country in the last 10 years and have a look at "...human rights/culture/history" ?

What about public television? Is there in Ireland. In the states, we have PBS, and pretty much, the funding for programming comes from the viewers themselves. Viewers become 'members' and pay a membership fee. Members can call in or whatever to give ideas on what they'd like to see and they might even pledge a cúpla nó 20 bucks extra to get to see six months or a years worth of a particular program or type of program. No not everyone who watches has to pay - it goes out over the airways and anyone can tune in and, I imagine there's always hangers on to anything good. So, you get the picture...
It's not as huge as the plans you guys are discussing, but it is a lot simpler to undertake it would seem. I realize the existance of TG4 and such, but this type of 'public' format could get the language a broader viewing. It would, no doubt be mixed in with enlish language shows - but that's part of the idea. Some people just surfing the channels could stumble into it and stay.

Ah jayzus, it's not and Irish station if there's any English in it. I was watching TV5, the French channel that I can pick up here and it is about 100 times better for learning French than TG4 is for learning Irish. The subtitles in English are truely terrible, it is really hard not to read them as you're going, and then they have plenty of other shows in English. The O.C. and stuff like that for example, why can't they put Irish subtitles on it? I would say dub it in Irish, but they did that before and it didn't really work too well.

And Domhnall, I don't mean to insult your politics or anything, but both Sinn Féin and the Green Party and insane and should never be allowed into government, especially the Greens. If they're the future for Irish, we can kiss it goodbye right now.

I love your idea about turning Ceathrú Rua into a massive city though, the proximity of Galway though would be a problem, perhaps somewhere in Tír Conaill would work better? It would need to be strictly Irish-only though, as there'd be plenty of English speakers trying to get in on the action.

And DjWebb, is there no Irish course like the Chinese course you described? I gotta say, that's an absolute disgrace and should be remedied immediately.

I don't know if there are graded courses for Irish going from Beginners' level to Intermediate to Advanced, but I have never heard of any. There are none on Amazon. Where is Ceathrú Rua?

An Cheathrú Rua is somewhere in Connemara, on the western part of Co. Galway.

(Message edited by Lughaidh on September 18, 2005)

As regards political parties, Trevor Sargent, the leader of the Green party in Ireland conducted a short campaign to highlight the lack of use of Irish in public life a few years back by conducting all his speaking and questions in the Dáil in Irish. I have it from a reliable source that our wonderful Taoiseach actually approached him behind the scenes and asked him to stop it because he couldn't understand him.
He did end it after a while becuase it wasn't feasible in the medium term since many TD do not have good Irish but refuse to use the tranlation system availabe in the Dáil because they don't want enyone to know they have no Irish! Also mmuch of the media will ignore you and that's not something a small party can be indulging in.

That is one reason(though not the only one) that I always vote Green and will never ever vote for FF. They're hypocrisy on the language for decades has been sickening and the fact that Éamon Ó Cuív is an honourable exeption to that only proves the rule.

I don't think Trevor Sargent should stop with that tactic altogether. He could use it to embarrass individual ministers even if other TDs couldn't understand. He should have given the Taoiseach a kick in the gonads.

How many SF TDs are there? Do they all speak Irish, and if so why don't they adopt Sargent's tactics?

Ní Sinn Féin ná Sibh Féin ná Iad Féin mé ach duine a fheiceann gur cuma sa diabhal le na polaiteoirí go léir beagnach uilig faoin nGaeilge.Caithfidh duine glacadh le rudaí mar atá siad ní nós a ba mhaith le duine iad a bheith.I feel that it is live and let live and if the people are not too bothered about the language dying It should not cause resentment or revolution.The numbers dropping Irish for Junior and Leaving Certs is on upward trend that will not change.If I was really poor at Irish I would just grin and bear it but put my efforts into subjects I was good at or interested in.Ach sin scéal eile tá mo Ghaeilge go maith agus ní thaitníonn liom go ngoilleann sé ar dhaoine, ach céard is féidir liomsa déanamh faoi.

There's 5 SF TDs ... and i think they have around 100+ councillors.

As far as I know, they're not too into using Irish in the Dáil. Occasionally on Oireachtas Report(an RTE programme reporting on the goings on in the Dáil) you'd get a debate or two in Irish, it's usually from someone like the Greens or Labour and whoever the designated 'Gaeilgeoir' of FF is answering them. I imagine the PDs absolutely hate Irish. Right-wing nuts, but ya can't argue with their economics.

Bhuel lads just back from Gaeltacht na Rinne - but that's for another post!

In Ireland to watch tv there's Tg4, tv3, Rté and Rté2.
Dont be fooled by RTE's name - Raidió Teilifís Eireann have few programmes as Gaeilge. Tg4 need to appeal to a broad audience hence the programmes in English aswell as our blessed Gaeilge. We pay for a tv licence in Eirinn to get these channels. But yes i dont think the subtitles do much good and i think tg4 can do more to widen their audience etc etc etc..

"And Domhnall, I don't mean to insult your politics or anything, but both Sinn Féin and the Green Party and insane and should never be allowed into government, especially the Greens. If they're the future for Irish, we can kiss it goodbye right now."
Thats more than alright mo chara.. Any party who is voted for is entitled to be returned to government. One man one vote and all that.. Excuse me the alternative would be FG/FF/LAB/PD's Em to put it simply pet ;
THEY HAD THEIR CHANCE AND FAILED. MISERABLY. ALL OF THEM. They dont care about Gaeilge and hence the lack of action. Things are going to CONTINUE to get worse unless they are thrown out immeadiately.

Thats true about proximity to Gaillimh - tir conaill is so very unsuitable due to the land itself. Indeed its isolation and awful terrain has been one of the reasons why many areas remain one of the few Gaelach areas of Eireann..

An Cheathrú Rua is the capital of the Conamara Gaeltacht. I say capital but i mean we're talking 4shops, church, electric shop, chippy and loads of schools.. sin an méid. Ta an Ghaeilge láidir ann..

Fearmire, i can easily believe mr.ahern asking sergeant to quit the Gaeilge. The leader of Ireland can't speak the language - - How shameful. :(
President Mhic Ghiolla Iosa from Belfast hadn't a word when she came ot office but by god did she learn it and learn it well.. Meas mór di.
But no in general im telling you that they are the 2 parties who speak the 2% of debates as Gaeilge more or less..
As a joke our government ministers retook their driving tests recently. How many passed? None.. What does that say...

All of Sinn Féin's TD's speak Gaeilge. As far as im aware Sinn Féin is the only party who pays for its elected representatives to go to learn Gaeilge. I think it's intensive sessions in Tyrone and Gleann Colmcille (Tir Chonaill) they give...
The Td's speak Gaeilge when together - i've heard them. The MEP's (European Parliment) also deserve major respect. Bairbre de Brún is fluent and conducts her business as Gaeilge. MaryLou McDonald (an ex-Fianna Fáil member let me say!!!) has her cúpla focal.. The thing is she actually uses them! Im sorry but if everyone was an elected representative for SF what a healthy langauge we'd have!! It's not just on paper the policy is - the representatives implement it on a practical level in their lives. More of this is defo needed..No matter who you wana vote for.
And personally im rather hopeful
Sinn Féin is the fastest growing party in Ireland - from Galway to Dublin, Antrim to Cork.. It is accepted to have the most dedicated members and it has the largest youth movement - OGRA SHINN FéIN. It is the largest party in one of the four provinces - Ulster. Almost 400,000 people voted SF in the last election making it the 3rd largest party in Ireland after Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. It only has 5 Td's at the moment but that's expected to treble at the next election. And 10/3 are the odds of Sinn Féin being in government at the next election..
There's
5 TD's
5 MP's (Members of the British Parliment who refuse to take part)
126 councillors in the 6 counties.
2 MEP's
and 57 councillors in the other 26 counties.

"As far as I know, they're not too into using Irish in the Dáil." So no you dont know and im telling you you're wrong. I should know!

Domhnall, I enjoyed your post. It was very informative. Can you tell me more about the terrain of Tir Conaill? In what way is it awful?

Tír Chonaill is made up of hills and rocks.

Sin é.

No literally - that's it. ;-)

It may be beautiful and it may have preserved our ancient way of life but it's about the one place on the planet that a city would be impossible :)