Hello, I am not 100% sure of the correct pronunciation of tense and lax sonorants L, L’, l’, N, N’ and n’ in Galway Irish. And the habit of Irish textbooks of only using a modified version of the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) enhances the problem, as N and L do not represent tense sonorants in the IPA, and so the use of these symbols does not correctly indicate the pronunciation. Can I present the situation as I know it and ask if anyone familiar with phonetic symbols can tell me if it is correct or not? These symbols will only display correctly on a Unicode system, or using a font such as Arial Unicode MS (but should be fine on any Windows XP).

Now the Galway Irish according to “Learning Irish” appears to have 3-way distinctions only between L, L’ and l’ (but not l), and N, N’ and n’ (but not n). I read somewhere on the Internet that the tense versions were dental, but the lax versions alveolar, and also that the tense versions were longer. The textbook “Learning Irish” does not explain these sounds well, saying only that the tense wounds “are tenser than English n and l; to achieve this quality, raise the centre of the tongue towards the soft palate”. I don’t really understand that, particularly as there would be a palatalized/non-palatalized distinction between slender and broad L and N. Ignoring that for the moment, the IPA symbol for a dental l is: l̪ and the IPA symbol for a dental n is n̪ (the dental marks may appear not to align properly underneath the letters). The IPA symbol for a prolonged sound is as followsː a long l would be lː and a semi-long l would be lˑ and an extra-long l would be lːː Finally the symbol for palatization is shown as followsː a palatalized l would be lʲ. So my tentative guess is thatː

L = l̪ː
L’ = l̪ʲː
N = n̪ː
N’ = n̪ʲː

The transcription of the non-tense slender l’ and n’ is problematic for me, as most books say that the l’ is like the l in English “lick”, and the n’ like the n in English “nick”. But English l’s and n’s are not palatalized as such. I studied Russian at university and remember that Russian people believe however that English l’s and n’s sound palatalized to them, corresponding to their soft l’s and n’s. I am wondering if the English l and the English n are actually semi-palatalized (semi-palatalization is a phenomenon I came across reading about Ukrainian, which has semi-palatalized consonants, but there is no symbol for semi-palatalization in the IPA). My assumption then is that the slender l’ and n’ are just ordinary English alveolar l’s and n’s, unless another vowel occurs immediately afterwards, in which case a clearer palatalized quality may be apparent. In other words:

bhoil = /wel/, with no need to indicate palatalization (which would be /welʲ/); but
duine = /dinʲə/, as the vowel following the n brings out a more palatalized quality. So, overall, I would transcribeː

l’ = l(ʲ)
n’ = n(ʲ)

I’m not at all sure that any of this is right!

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 13, 2005)

>Hello, I am not 100% sure of the correct pronunciation >of tense and lax sonorants L, L’, l’, N, N’ and n’ in >Galway Irish. And the habit of Irish textbooks of only >using a modified version of the International Phonetic >Alphabet (IPA) enhances the problem, as N and L do not >represent tense sonorants in the IPA, and so the use of >these symbols does not correctly indicate the >pronunciation. Can I present the situation as I know it >and ask if anyone familiar with phonetic symbols can >tell me if it is correct or not? These symbols will >only display correctly on a Unicode system, or using a >font such as Arial Unicode MS (but should be fine on >any Windows XP).

I've often explained that in other threads. Try the subject on "Recordings of the sounds of Irish" and you will even have a link to Phooka's website, he has put online a page and recordings I have done.

>Now the Galway Irish according to “Learning Irish” >appears to have 3-way distinctions only between L, L’ >and l’ (but not l), and N, N’ and n’ (but not n). I >read somewhere on the Internet that the tense versions >were dental, but the lax versions alveolar, and also >that the tense versions were longer.

My old teacher told us they were no longer, just pronounced differently:

L N are dental and velarised
L' N' are very palatalised (so, like Spanish ll and ñ)
l' and n' are pronounced quite like in english "to live" and "to knit"

>The textbook “Learning Irish” does not explain these >sounds wewll, saying only that the tense wounds “are >tenser than English n and l; to achieve this quality, >raise the centre of the tongue towards the soft palate”.

That is "to velarise" a consonant. But it's better to hear the sound in recordings, than to read the physical movement you have to do...

L = l̪ː > no, in the IPA, it is just dental and velarised (I won't type the symbols here because it won't work with this font)
L’ = l̪ʲː > no, in IPA it's the inversed Lambda symbol (palatal l)
N = n̪ː > just dental velarised n (it's not longer)
N’ = n̪ʲː > in IPA, it's the symbol n with a j-like leg on the left leg of the n (i hope it's clear :-( )

>The transcription of the non-tense slender l’ and n’ is >problematic for me, as most books say that the l’ is >like the l in English “lick”, and the n’ like the n in >English “nick”. But English l’s and n’s are not >palatalized as such.

n' and l' aren't really palatalised (or so few that you almost cannot hear it). Thje difference between /n/ and /n'/ is that the first one is velarised, not the second one.

>My assumption then is that the slender l’ and n’ are >just ordinary English alveolar l’s and n’s, unless >another vowel occurs immediately afterwards, in which >case a clearer palatalized quality may be apparent. In >other words:

>bhoil = /wel/, with no need to indicate palatalization >(which would be /welʲ/);

You need to indicate palatalisation with a ' , because in Irish phonological writing, you put a ' after all slender consonants, and all consonants without ' are broad. So l without ' is broad (=velarised). In "bhoil", it isn't velarised so you have to write /wel'/. (In real IPA phonetics, which is different from Irish phonological writing, it'll be the contrary: no symbol after l or n when they are single and slender, but when they are broad, you have to add a symbol: a wave-like symbol on them or a small high "gamma" after them).

so:

Irish phonological writing (what you have in Learning Irish and most books: is only used for Irish)

slender single l /l'/
slender double l (ll) /L'/
broad single l /l/
broad double l (ll) /L/


Regular IPA (phonetic: these symbols are the same for all languages that have these sounds)

slender single l /l/
slender double l (ll) /"inversed lambda symbol"/
broad single l /l + "small gamma up after"/
broad double l (ll) /l + "dental symbol below" + "small gamma up after"/

(Instead of the small gamma you can use a small wave across the letter)


I hope it helped.

Lughaidh, that was a very informative posting. Here is what I understood:

L = l̪ˠ
L’ = ʎ
l’ = l

N = n̪ˠ
N’ = ɲ
n’ = n

Can you just confirm that you did not mean to say that broad single l is non-dental and broad double ll is dental? [That's how I interpreted your last paragraph.] You see Learning Irish only has a three-way and not a four-way distinction (see page 212). In other words there is no lax broad l, only a tense broad l: just /L/, /L'/ and /l'/, but no /l/.

About the not really palatalized quality of n' and l': am I right that a greater degree of palatalization is heard if there is a following vowel, eg my example with "duine", is this pronounced almost like "dinya"?

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 13, 2005)

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 13, 2005)

Lughaidh, I found your wonderful recordings. And the idea of a table of the three dialects showing which sounds are in which was wonderful. Is there any way you can add a column giving the correct IPA symbol for each sound? (Narrow transcription, I mean, as exact as possible)?

Lughaidh, I couldn't download 13 of your 71 recordings of the Irish sounds. The slender single l, both of the slender r's and the 10 vowel recordings with fada marks in the names - these are the ones I couldn't listen to. have they been renamed?

Lughaidh, this is my best effort at IPA transcription of Irish phonemes. I am missing a few. What is the best transcription of slender r?

Sound
a aː
á (Connemara & Munster) ɑː
ae æː
ao (Donegal) yː
broad b bˠ
broad bh & mh (Munster) w (or wˠ?)
broad bh & mh (Donegal) vˠ or maybe βˠ or ʋˠ?
broad c kˠ
broad ch χˠ
broad d & dt dˠ
broad f & ph ɸˠ
broad g & gc gˠ
broad gh & dh ɣˠ
broad l (l) lˠ
broad ll (L) l̪ˠ
broad m & mb mˠ
broad n (n) nˠ
broad ng ŋˠ
broad nn & nd (N) n̪ˠ
broad p pˠ
broad r (r) ɾˠ
broad rr (R) rˠ
broad s sˠ
broad t & ts tˠ
closed ó oː?
closed o o?
devoiced broad l l̥ˠ (no devoiced tense consonants?)
devoiced broad n n̥ˠ
devoiced broad r ɾ̥ˠ
devoiced slender l l̥
devoiced slender n n̥
devoiced slender r ɾ̥
é eː
h, sh, th h
i i
ia iːə
nasalised a ã (not in Learning Irish)
nasalised o õ (not in Learning Irish)
nasalised u ũ (not in Learning Irish)
open ó ɔː? (not in Learning Irish)
open o,unstressed ó (Donegal) ɔ?
slender b & bp bʲ
slender bh & mh vʲ or should it be βʲ or ʋʲ?
slender c kʲ
slender ch ç
slender d & dt dʲ
slender d (Munster) d
slender f & ph ɸʲ
slender g & gc gʲ
slender gh & dh j
slender l (l’) l
slender ll (L’) ʎ
slender m & mb mʲ
slender n (n’) n
slender ng ŋʲ
slender nn (N’) ɲ
slender p pʲ
slender r (r’) ?? I am tempted to think this is closer to ʐ than ɾʲ. Maybe an apical version of ʐ? ʐ̺ ???
slender rr (R’) ?? rʲ?
slender s sʲ
slender t tʲ
slender t (Munster) t
stressed á (Donegal) no idea
stressed aidh, aigh aɪ
stressed e in monosyllables ɛ (not in Learning Irish)
stressed í iː
stressed ú uː
u, unstressed ú (Donegal) u
ua uːə
unstressed a (schwa) ə
unstressed í (Donegal) no idea

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 13, 2005)

Please excuse me for posting so many times in this thread, but I have found a further 5 phonemes not listed. Lughaidh, you only have one diphthong, /aɪ/, but Myles Dillon lists a further fiveː

1. /ou/ in the word gabhar
2. /au/ in the world dall
3. /əi/ in the word gadhar
4. /ãɪ/ in the word aimhleas
5. /ãu/ in the word aimhras

Learning Irish also lists a rare diphthongː
6. /eɪ/ in the word beidh

and the triphthongsː
7. /uːəuː/ in the word chuadhadh
8. /uːəiː/ in the word cruaiche

So there are at least 79 phonemes in Irish – the 71 you list and these 8.

Also technically, the velarization mark needs to be altered in the case of broad labial consonants to show the labialization of the glide, egː kˠ but bʷ

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 13, 2005)

Djwebb, please keep in mind the difference between Cois Fhairrge Irish and Munster Irish. No Irish dialect has all the phonemes. Luckily enough, Munster completely lacks the sounds [L] and [N] as well as some other sounds.

Munster has the sounds /L/ and /N/ but lacks the distinction between /L/ and /l/ and between /N/ and /n/. The alveolar phonemes /l/ and /n/ are the ones that Munster has lost, but in transcriptions referring only to Munster (or to Dónall Ó Baoill's oversimplified "Lárchanúint") the small letters are used where no contrast is being shown between tense and lax sounds.

I have trouble viewing this page on another computer, until I realised that I needed, not only to specify Arial Unicode MS as the font, but also to check the option in Internet explorer - options - accessibility to ignore the font style specified in this page's source, which is Times New Roman. My list of IPA symbols for Irish will only be visible to those using Arial Unicode MS. If Lughaidh helps me work out the correct transcription of the few I am unsure of, I can post a PDF later this week.

lax sonorants - known as a group as the laxatives? ;-)

quote:

the laxatives?

tongue potatoes -- ní dhéanann siad ach luí siar agus srann a ligean

Purgóid s(r)anntach?

>Can you just confirm that you did not mean to say that >broad single l is non-dental and broad double ll is >dental?

broad single l = alveolar and velarised
broad double l = dental and velarised.

>[That's how I interpreted your last paragraph.] You see >Learning Irish only has a three-way and not a four-way >distinction (see page 212). In other words there is no >lax broad l, only a tense broad l: just /L/, /L'/ >and /l'/, but no /l/.

Conamara dialect.

>About the not really palatalized quality of n' and l': >am I right that a greater degree of palatalization is >heard if there is a following vowel, eg my example >with "duine", is this pronounced almost like "dinya"?

That is true in Donegal Irish, only for single slender n between vowels. That's not true for l.

>Lughaidh, I found your wonderful recordings. And the >idea of a table of the three dialects showing which >sounds are in which was wonderful.

Thanx.

>Is there any way you can add a column giving the >correct IPA symbol for each sound? (Narrow >transcription, I mean, as exact as possible)?

I'd like to, but we 'll have to find a phoetic font that most people have... that's the problem. Arial Unicode MS? Lucida Sans Unicode ?



>Lughaidh, I couldn't download 13 of your 71 recordings >of the Irish sounds. The slender single l, both of the >slender r's and the 10 vowel recordings with fada marks >in the names - these are the ones I couldn't listen to. >have they been renamed?

Foc... I dunno what happened, you should ask Phooka, because he owns the site and he put my stuff online...

>Lughaidh, this is my best effort at IPA transcription >of Irish phonemes. I am missing a few. What is the best >transcription of slender r?

There's a kind of r symbol with a long leg down as in p and q. That's the symbol for that sound in IPA.

>devoiced broad l l̥ˠ (no devoiced tense consonants?)

I can't read the symbols (font problem)... I'm not sure there is a difference between single and double devoiced consonants.

>nasalised a ã (not in Learning Irish)
nasalised o õ (not in Learning Irish)
nasalised u ũ (not in Learning Irish)

they aren't phonemic, that's why they aren't in LI. And they aren't much used now, except by older speakers.

>slender r (r’) ?? I am tempted to think this is closer to ʐ than ɾʲ. Maybe an apical version of ʐ? ʐ̺ ???

I don't see your symbols :-(

>slender rr (R’) ?? rʲ?

id.

Lughaidh, I am sorry about that. I have created a PDF and put it at http://www.hskvocabulary.com/IPA%20for%20Irish.pdf

It has all the symbols for the 71 Irish phonemes you identified, plus the other 8 I posted about, and another 3 mentioned on Wikipedia.

>Please excuse me for posting so many times in this >thread, but I have found a further 5 phonemes not >listed. Lughaidh, you only have one diphthong, /aɪ/, >but Myles Dillon lists a further five

Yeah, I know there are some diphthongs I have not listed, but what i wanted to do is to give recordings of the sounds, and the diphthongs are just combinations of sounds. You can guess them from the vowels and semi-vowels I gave...

>1. /ou/ in the word gabhar
>2. /au/ in the world dall
>3. /əi/ in the word gadhar
>4. /ãɪ/ in the word aimhleas
>5. /ãu/ in the word aimhras

And diphthongs are different in all dialects... Donegal: gabhar is /go:r/, dall is /daL/, gadhar would be /ge:r/, aimhleas would be /av'l'@s/, amhras /o:r@s/ or /ã:r@s/.

>Also technically, the velarization mark needs to be altered in the case of broad labial consonants to show the labialization of the glide, egː kˠ but bʷ

I do know that (I already talked about that on another thread).

>Djwebb, please keep in mind the difference between Cois >Fhairrge Irish and Munster Irish. No Irish dialect has >all the phonemes.

Ulster one has almost all of them, I think.

>(or to Dónall Ó Baoill's oversimplified "Lárchanúint")

Yeah, quite odd, O Baoill is from Gweedore, which dialect has the 4 L's, 4 R's, 4 N's... :-)

>My list of IPA symbols for Irish will only be visible >to those using Arial Unicode MS. If Lughaidh helps me >work out the correct transcription of the few I am >unsure of, I can post a PDF later this week.

No problem

>lax sonorants - known as a group as the laxatives? ;-)

Les consonnes qui font chier (joke for French speakers... :-D )

haha !
bonne réplique !

Argot buinneach? Tá na bundún á scaoileadh inniu orainn uilig, is cosúil. Is mór an purgóid é!

http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/freng.exe?word=chier