Between Heart And Reason


The discussions about "mo chara" and "tá sé chomh leadránach" have got me into thinking once again about the evolution of language.


We know languages evolve. It is inevitable. Those which don't evole are those which are dead.
Yet, even if we acknowledge the fact, we don't always want to accept it when it comes to the language(s) we actually speak.

evolution from within:

Most generally, languages evolve from within, with each new generation.
In a society where there are classes, the language doesn't evolve in the same way and at the same pace between the upper and the lower class.
-The upper class variant is taken to be the Standard: not only does it evolve very slowly (due to the fact that it is fixed in grammar books and such, and that it is taught at school) but it also becomes the only legitimate variant in the mind of most people.
-The lower class variant is never taken to be the Standard, and is generally not written: thus it can evolve much faster, but its forms are considered incorrect (and those who speak it are often considered less intelligent by the others).

evolution from without:

Languages can also evolve because of the influence of another language.
-The influence can be external: those who speak a language will introduce features from another language (which they may not even speak). This process is generally fueled by a "fashion effect". (e.g.: English is very fashionable these days and is influencing French vocabulary.) (This is considered bad by the purists.)
-The influence can be internal: people may adopt a second language, but since it is not their mother tongue, they will influence it whether they want it or not. (This is considered even worse by the purists.)

French, in the course of its history, underwent this last possibility:
When the Germans invaded what was to become France, they adopted Latin instead of imposing their language. But since they were speaking germanic languages, they wound up speaking "bad" Latin (strongly influenced by Germanic). Being the upper class, the way they spoke suffused down to the lower classes, which wound up speaking bad Latin too, through imitation. The result of this evolution is the "now prestigious" French.


So, asking the question "An fearr Gaeilge briste ná Bearla cliste?", I would answer: neither.

Everybody in Ireland speaks English, so let's no try and believe that Irish won't be influence by it (and maybe more strongly than Germanic influenced Latin).
You may not like the result, but then again: de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum. And no one should blame you for listening to your heart.
But if so, then don't invoque reason, because it is reason which tells you that all these evolutions above mentioned are totally and absolutely legitimate.


I believe Irish is in transition. And I believe it cannot survive and not be (very) strongly influenced by English. The result won't be Irish anymore some may say... and it is partly true: just like French is not Latin anymore...

irish is (unfortunately) a weak language...made weaker by lackluster support at home.

the most enthusiastic for the language are the students with their imperfect grammar and secondhand vocabulary...they far outnumber the true, daily native speakers

those who wish to see gaeilge continue as a living language have a choice:
1) as a 'cool' second language for the youth of the country as a whole, heavily influenced by english grammar, vocabulary and idiom
2) to remain 'pure' and slowly die out over the next two or three generations, existing only as cornish does through a few die-hards and academics (themselves with an understanding similar to #1)

to expect all change to come from within the gaeltacht to be considered 'legitimate' is to make an unreasonable demand and to give the language a death-sentence.

the normal rules for language change from within that one expects with french or italian or chinese simply do not apply as irish is not a healthy language. even 'healthy' languages such as french or russian cannot resist being 'contaminated' with americanisms and whatnot. irish is unduly influenced through few numbers and lukewarm support surrounded by, and dealing almost exclusively with, one of the strongest languages on earth - it having displaced gaeilge even in its home country.

it WILL be more influenced by english than saxon was by norman french to produce modern english in the first place. to expect otherwise is to be unrealistic

I was going to start a new thread, but since this is similar, I will post here.

Last night I read this: http://www.geocities.com/faolchu.geo/ulster-standard.html

"genitive inflection and grammatical gender in today’s literary Irish...have in many dialects been greatly weakened (Indeed, all but entirely disappeared in Ros Goill Irish)"

Well for much of the last week I ahve been making up tables in Excel so that I can code up a noun + adjective analyser/creator in Mathlab. I am using the caighdeán as I am not very familar with grammar, and one needs lots of grammar books as they tend to be badly written and confusing, so cross referencing/checking them is essential.

But like, what is the point? Why are we tlaking about genders and cases and declensions when it is obvious that the gaeltachtaí are getting rid of them? On TV and even on RnG, younger speakers have obviously got many English derived phonetics. The 'r' is English on TG4's kids programes. Even in Buntus Cainte, they say 'A Dhaidí' as /@ j@d'ji:/ -no voiced velar fricative there.

It seems that Irish is fracturing into several sections. Speakers of the caighdeán + gaelic phonemics are going to sound like shakesphere does to us in the gaeltacht at this rate.

Now it is the business of the native gaelgeoirí, who kept their language as all around where losing theirs, how they want to speak it, but at the rate it seems to be changing, what are learners, who are the biggest section to aim for? Like, the Celt DIAS phonemic books might as well be on middle irish, at this stange, as be 'modern irish'.

As I see it, it would be easier to go like Welsh and have no cases, or to have discreet and watertight classical irish cases, with special endings to signal case, as better. The current scenario is like living in a house falling down before been (someday) rebuilt. Some rooms are usable, some not. It is a dogs dinner.

So do I say 'Barr an dorais' or 'Barr den doras' (de 'of' + an = den); it that with rolling and flapped 'r's or with english 'r's. Or should I go full hog and spell it Bar jen dorass, and show how Irish is turning into a latter day Manx.

Why am I concerned, you may ask? Well, since as I am traing to be a psychologist, (and am interested in language training), I ahve to a) create tests and b) get subjects to do them. If I cannot be sure any one test will mirror Irish as is spoken because it has cahnged in the last 10 years, irish will only be a test bed for language training -inflectional verbs here, gentive there, but no holistic training as people might go down to the gaeltacht and end up sounding at best like poeple 120 years ago, or at worse be inuntelligable.

One other thing, if, as has entered the zeitgeist in the last few decades, creating communities of specific focus, be they new age, linguistic, or just economic, is going to become popular, or at least more widespread, the inhabitants of any Irish community will ahve to pick some sort of dialect or standard, and I guess it wont be the curretn gaeltacht form for most of them.

Perhaps we really will se Irish die out in the next 2 decades, but only becasue Irish will spawn daughter langauges whcih will be mutually unintelligable. sOme groups will speak caighdeán with reconstrcucted or traditional gaelic phonemics, some with hiberno-english sounds. Some will be in the gaeltact, with a hybrid sound. some gaeltachts will have englihs phonetics only. Other may try classical irish with all the bells and whistles.

Irish may end up as an odd language with the verb at the front, British or Hiberno-English phonetics, and a mather of plural endings to choose from. The rest of it will be english, or whatever-you-are-having-yourself.

I agree with the essence of what Antaine and Max are saying here. Irish needs to evolve quicker than other languages because its evolution was halted by colonialism and other factors which have already been discussed at length.
As we all know the Future of the Irish language depends on the youth in Ireland, the School kids - The problem is, they are English speakers who think and communicate using English/American and European idioms. To get them truly on board, Irish must allow them their say. This will probably mean more 'Béarlachas' will make its way into the language but that won't hurt it any more that it already is.
I'm amazed how Irish never took the bull by the horns when the free state was established - Why is there not a standard pronunciation taught to all school kids? Regional dialects are fine but it's essential to have a standard.
'Ní neart go cur le chéile'- Empty words when it comes to the strategy for promoting Irish.

We need way more media input. How about a national Irish language day that is celebrated with a media extravaganza featuring some of Ireland biggest stars.

Le meas
Somhairle

"As we all know the Future of the Irish language depends on the youth in Ireland, the School kids - The problem is, they are English speakers"

This is a confounding of geography with some sort of imagined target population. Children in Ireland are more anglicised than their parents, and thus are the last section to be appealing to.

If you were to say that "we all know the future of the Irish language depends on the youth in New Zealand -the school kids", it would sound ridiculas. Yet, it is functionally the same as refering to Irish kids. How could the future be with them? They do not represent the sort of linguistic community that are self referencing enough, or influential enough, to carve out a new Irish language community.

An elite of some description, even if small, and even if only able to control the result less than 100%, has a better chance of success. Capital, leadership, vision, knowledge, high social position, and real estate -these make differences. Quaint 'table-quizanna' or 'Kidz -B Kool, spék Géilga!' type attepts wont.

"I'm amazed how Irish never took the bull by the horns when the free state was established"

Restoring law and order, and keeping the middle classes and their interests safe were the prime directives of the Free State, not cultural revolution. For more than a century, the Catholic english speaking middle classes had grown in power, and after removing the Ascendancy, removed the British (or at least benifitted from their removal by radical elements). There was no interest in been gaelic as they had left that behind.

If it had been a popular gaelic revolution where there had been no famine, then, perhaps, re-gaelicisation of much of the country coudl ahve taken place, but there woudl ahve had to be a large celtic popualtion to project and live out that dream.

The future of a language is always down to the next generation - If German kids started speaking English, German would become endangered .. So I don't get your point Robert.

I'm still very optimistic about the Irish language's future. I wouldn't be learning it if I wasn't.

With all due respect, it seems to me the biggest problem at the moment is a inflexibility towards change.

Take the word 'Anamchara' - This was adopted by an American writer to mean 'soulmate', many purists were up in arms over its use. I don't really understand why ? When words are given a new meaning in English by youth culture srl we don't have academics saying 'you can't do that'. The chances are the new meaning will be introduced into the dictionary. (soulmate is a modern term for which there is no equivalent in Irish. The argument that 'anamchara' can only mean 'spiritual advisor' even though no one ever uses it is detrimental).

More co-ordination between the Gaeltachts are necessary.

Don't wanna be disrespectful here but in the 4 years that I've been learning Irish I've come across so many hurdles that it's to keep the focus. I'll see it thru but I like so many others need help and encouragement.

quote:

The argument that 'anamchara' can only mean 'spiritual advisor' even though no one ever uses it is detrimental

The point is that people do use it in that sense, so that the soul mate sense would be confusing/lost to fluent speakers.

Also, I shoul dpoint out that my objection to "soul mate/anamchara" is not on language, but on the attempt to project New Age concepts onto Gaelic spirituality.

quote:

New Age

Dála an scéil, deir na foclóirí gurb ionann "nua-aoiseach" agus "nua-aimseartha" (modern). Ach is dóigh liom go bhfuil daoine ann a dhéanann idirdhealú orthu, mar atá:

nua-aimseartha = modern
nua-aoiseach = new age

Has that caught on ar chor ar bith?

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil "Nua Aoiseachas" feicthe agam.

"Children in Ireland are more anglicised than their parents, and thus are the last section to be appealing to. "

children in ireland will at some point be the oldest ones left, and the ones *yet to have the next generation*, and therefore, are pretty much the only 'section' that counts worth a tinker's damn.

does that carry hefty implications for the language? absolutely! but to fight it is to turn off the parents of the future to the language entirely. children in ireland being more anglicised than their parents represents a failure on their parents' generation.

remember, a generation's value as speakers is 1/4 usage themselves and 3/4 passing it on.

>Even in Buntus Cainte, they say 'A Dhaidí' as /@ >j@d'ji:/ -no voiced velar fricative there.

No influence of English there, the basic word, without séimhiú, is just Deaidí in some dialects (Donegal, at least). So > a Dheaidí.

Pé scéal é, is cuid de eabhlóid na teangan an cuir is cúiteamh seo faoi an "fíor Ghaeilge" atá i nath airíd, nó nach ea. Tá an plé luachmhar, mar go gcaitear suas ó ham go chéile nath a bhí caillte. Ambaist.

Asarlaí wrote:

"Don't wanna be disrespectful here but in the 4 years that I've been learning Irish I've come across so many hurdles that it's to keep the focus. I'll see it thru but I like so many others need help and encouragement."

I couldn't agree more. My guidance to most beginning students or inquistive minds is to pick a resource that fits their style of learning and throw themselves into it. Forget all the other dialects. Just get comfortable with one for the first 6 months or so. Then, once you feel like you're at least on you feet with the language you can start to look at Ulster versus Munster etc.

This need for encouragement you mention is exactly the point I've tried to make in so many previous posts. Irish must be made inviting and welcoming not daunting and exclusive.

Is fíor an rud a deir tú a Shéamais ach sílim go dtagann deacrachtaí sa bhealach ar fhormhór na ngaeilgeoirí mar gheall ar chanúint.
Tá a fhios agam cainteoirí líofa Ultacha nach féidir cainteoir Muimhneach a thuiscint agus a mhalairt de dhóigh.

Ara, táim ag foghlaim Gaeilge sa bhaile le ceithre bliana anuas agus measaim gur fiabhras an chábáin é atá agam agus nílim ach ag cur teaspaigh de :)

Maith dom mo chuid Gaeilge bhriste - fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

(Message edited by Asarlaí on September 12, 2005)

Togha Fir a Asarlaí - is í an teanga ina labhairt.

Ceapaim go bhfuil a lán déanta as tada maidir leis na canúintí. I gcoitinne tá siad an chéanna. Tá rudaí i Mumhan agus rudaí in Ultaibh ach tá chuile acu Gaeilge. Tá daoine bródúil as a gcanúint féin, ámh agus ba mhaith leo idirdhealaithe a dhéanamh eatharthu. Ní maith é do chás na Gaeilge i mo thuairimse.