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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (September-October) » Archive through September 15, 2005 » Prepositional Pronouns or do you want to lose your mind? « Previous Next »

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 208
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A while back I used the expression "idir sinn" intending 'between us' in some thread or another, and when the grammar garda didn't jump me, I assumed the usuage was correct.

However, I have since encountered the prepositional pronoun "eadrainn." It took some time, but I finally found the term in a table of prepositional pronouns at http://www.irishpage.com/quiz/preppron.htm

My question is whether idir sinn is acceptable. Also, is there a combined form for idir mé?

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 265
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Eadrainn" is strictly "between us" or "amongst us," whereas "idir sinn agus..." is the expression for "between us and (something or someone else)."

The following examples, and two or three others, of "idir sinn...," "eadar sinn..." and "eadar muid" as used by various writers can be found in "Tobar na Gaedhilge"
(http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/tobar/):

idir sinn agus Dún Chaoin

idir sinn agus tóin an tí

idir sinn féin agus an séipéal, an sagart, an fhaoistin

eadar sinn féin agus léas

eadar sinn féin is a' troscadh

Dia eadar sinn is a' tubaiste

eadar sinn féin is a' t-ainspiorad bradach

eadar sinn féin is Sasain

sgaifte fear i n-a seasamh eadar sinn féin is a' beár

an ceangal deireannach atá eadar sinn agus an Rí Séarlas

Bhí sé anáirde eadar sinn agus léas

Cnoc Nulla ag éirghe 'na thoirt dhubh eadar sinn agus a' spéir

Dubhairt sé nach n-aithneóchaidhe eadar sinn féin agus na mianadóirí anois.

dá dtéidheadh againn an fhairrge a chur eadar sinn féin agus an méid dár saoghal drabhlasach a bhí caithte

chonnaiceamar sgáile dubh eadar sinn féin agus an dallóg

“Nach bhfuil tú ag deánamh,” arsa Cill-dé, “go bhféadfadh
an Droch-Rud — Dia eadar muid féin agus é féin — go bhféadfadh sé a theacht chugat i gcosamhlacht do thachráin?”
____________________________

"Also, is there a combined form for idir mé?"

No.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 798
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 04:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

idir mé
idir tú
idir é
idir í
eadrainn
eadraibh
eatarthu

The singular ones are separate because you can't have something "between me".

The book was between me and Seán.
Bhí an leabhar idir mé agus Seán.

The book was between us.
Bhí an leabhar eadrainn.

The book was between us and the girls.
Bhí an leabhar idir muid agus na cailiní.

The book was between them.
Bhí an leabhar eatarthu.

The book was between them and us.
Bhí an leabhar idir iad agus muidne.

(Not entirely sure if my use of emphasised pronouns is right above...)

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1931
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá fuascailt na ceiste ag Peadar thuas.

Ní féidir liom mo mhéar a chuir air an gcúis, ach ní maith liom do shamplaí, a FnaB. Braithim go bhfuil
quote:

Bhí an leabhar idir mé agus Seán.


agus
quote:

Bhí an leabhar idir muid agus na cailiní.


aisteach.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 723
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá an chúis furast go leor, ina dhiaidh sin.

Bhí sé 'na shuí eadrainn = he was sitting between us.

Dia idir sinn agus an t-olc = God (may be) between US AND THE EVIL.


Mar sin, nuair a bíos "between us" agus gan faic ina dhiaidh, baineann tú úsáid as "eadrainn".

Nuair a bíos "between us and xyz", deireann tú "idir sinn agus...". Rud céanna le "between you and...", "between them and...".

As siocair go bhfaghann tú:

idir + sinn = eadrainn

idir + [sinn agus an t-olc].

Tá ceangal láidir idir "sinn" agus "an t-olc", mar sin ní féidir "sinn" a chur le "idir" mar fhorainm réamhfhoclach: bhrisfeadh sin an ceangal.

Bhfuil sé níos soiléire?

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 209
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agaibh, a chairde; agus anois, (go raibh) Dia idir mé agus an t-aineolas.

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Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 213
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm beginning to suspect that fluency in Irish is 90% dependent upon mastering Is, tá, and the prepositional pronoun. After that it's a matter of memorizing vocabulary and learning not to pronounce half the letters one sees before him.

At any rate ...

Is mise dochtúir.
Is dochtúir mé.
Dochtúir atá ionam.

(1) Are these three expressions equally correct?

(2) Do they all mean the same thing?

(3) Regarding the "Dochtúir atá ionam:" WHAT?

(Message edited by pádraig on September 14, 2005)

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 270
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 01:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The first one is wrong.

Is mise an dochtúir — I'm the doctor.

Is dochtúir mé / Tá mé i mo dhochtúir / Dochtúir atá ionam ("[It is a] doctor that is in me") / Dochtúir is ea mé — I'm a doctor.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 214
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 02:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá mé in mo chónaí i gCorcaigh.

Now that makes sense because I can translate it as I am in my dwelling (when I am) in Cork.

But

Tá mé i mo dhochtuir? I am in my doctor ...

I realize some out there will admonish me not to demean the language with literal translation attempts, but what other guide is there to help in remembering. These many and varied ways of saying the same thing require more than just memorizing a vocabulary list.

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Asarlaí
Member
Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 07:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi Pádraig,
A fella called Oisín has written a great explanation on this over on IGT.com..

http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/ftopic7339-0-asc-20.html



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