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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (September-October) » Archive through September 15, 2005 » Double Language? « Previous Next »

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 786
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Not so much a post about Irish itself, but about languages in general!

Something I've been wondering about: If you have a community in which there's more than one language spoken (like South Africa), do people in their everyday speech intertwine the languages? Something like:

I went to the siopa ach ní fhaca mé an fear sin!

I once knew a fella that was South African, and one day in his house, his mother was on the phone. I didn't recognise the language she was speaking, and the fella said that it was "Afrikans" mixed with some English.

First of all, is it common that a community mixes languages like this?

Second of all, does this cause problems when they come across someone who only speaks one of the languages, meanwhile they're still mixing the two of them together? Are they even aware which parts belong to which language?

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 222
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

First of all, is it common that a community mixes languages like this?



Yes. Code-switching a thugtar air. Chuala mé go minic é agus mé i mo chónaí in India, daoine ag dul ó Hindi go Béarla agus ar ais arís san abairt chéanna. Is dóigh liom gur féidir a leithéid a chloisteáil sa scannán "Monsoon Wedding", ach Panjabi agus Béarla atá i gceist ansin den chuid is mó.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 754
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

As Dennis says, it's fairly common. In most cases, one language is stronger in the particular area and as a consequence, speaker of the minority language tend to mix more than those who speak the majority language. There are many studies on this, by the way.

It can cause communication problems when speaking with monolinguals, but it's not as common as could be expected. In the Helsinki area, it's very common that speakers of Swedish mix in Finnish words in their speech. These words are unfamiliar for Swedish speakers from Sweden, and most Swedish speakers from Helsinki avoid mixing when speaking with Sweden-swedes. As far greater problem is when speakers start mixing syntax. Most people know very well if a certain word is Swedish or Finnish, but there are (far too) many speakers of Swedish in Helsinki who at times construct sentences using a Finnish syntax. That they are often unable to avoid both when speaking with monolingual Swedes or when writing.

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Dancas1
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Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 128
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In America they called it "slum (saol luim) slang." I call it Irish-American vernacular. It mixes English and irish (and Yiddish. Siclian, etc). Uses English syntax, but had Irish words strung on it like Xmas bulbs on a Xmas tree. It is of course much diminshed today, due to the Xenophobic nativist hatred for hybridity in USA, but when i was a kid many still spoke it with a pronounced accent. You know it as the "East Side " accent or the Bowery Boys accent of the racado/ir and gangster Muc (mug). Read Iceman Cometh by O'Neill, The Web, Anna Christy, Hughie, Moon for Misbegotton, Ah Wildernesds, whoile sections are in this vernacular. etc. When The O'Neill accepted the Nobel Prize it was Irish American vernacular that gave the duaiseoir of a speech. I recently found a translation of O'Neill's Emperor Jones done by a Galway Irish speaker in 1941 who translated O'Neill's American vernacular into irish. Very interesting. Everone who was "scramming" (splitting)) was doing the "bogadh luath."

DC

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Dancas1
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Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 129
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yank


The playwright Eugene O’Neill captured the hard-edged spiel (speal, cutting satiric speech) of Irish American Vernacular in the voice of the character “Yank,” an Irish-American ship’s coal stoker, who is the protagonist of O’Neill’s 1922 play, The Hairy Ape. O’Neill’s fictional Yank was born and raised on the docks of Brooklyn around the same time as “Pop.”

Yank was no Willie “the Actor,” Sutton, but a slugger for fair (slacaire foirfe, a complete, experienced, perfected bruiser and mauler) who hated scabs (sciob, to snatch violently, sciobaire, grasper, snatcher, fig. someone who violently snatches a striking worker’s jobs) and Orangemen – like Pop.

YANK, (fiercely contemptuous) Shut up you lousy boob (búb, búbaí, a bellower)!Where d’yeh get dat tripe (dríb, dirt, filth) ? Home? Home, hell! I’ll make a home for yuh! I’ll knock yuh dead. Home! T’hell wit home. Where d’yu get dat tripe? Dis is home, see? What d’yuh want with home? (Proudly) I runned away from home when I was a kid. On’y to glad to beat it, dat was me.”

+

YANK: Come on youse guys! (He is turning to get some coal when the whistle sounds…This drives him into a sudden fury.) Toin off dat whistle! Come down outa dere, yuh yellow (éalódh, absconding, sneaking away, ‘chickening’ out [teith ar cheann]) brass-buttoned, Belfast bum, yuh! Come down and I’ll knock your brains out! Yuh lousy, stinkin’, yellow mut of a Catholic-moiderin’ bastard! …I’ll moider yuh! …I’ll drive yer teet’ down yer troat!...yuh lousy boob…”

+

YANK: Choich, huh? I useter go to choich onct – sure – when I was a kid. My old man and woman dey made me. Dey never went demselves, dough. Always got too big a head on Sunday mornin’, dat was dem. (With a grin.) Dey was scrappers for fair (foirfe, perfect, complete; experienced), bot’ of dem. ..I run away when me old lady croaked (crochta, hanged, executed, crucifed fig. die) wit de tremens…Den I shipped in de stoke hole… De Brooklyn waterfront, dat was where I was dragged up.”

In the Irish American Vernacular of old New York and Brooklyn, if you “croaked wit de tremens…” or from an alcoholic seizure like Yank’s mother, “you croaked from the ‘Brooklyn Boys’” (brúcht lionn baitheas, beer, ale, or booze bursting the top of the head. Fig. delirium tremens or a massive hangover.)
+
HARRY HOPE: “..You’ve told that story ten millions times and if I have to hear it again, that’ll give me the DTs anyway.”

JOE MOT : “Gittin’ drunk every day for twenty years ain’t give you de Brooklyn Boys. You needn’t be scared of me!” (O’Neill, The Iceman Cometh, p. 601)


The “Brooklyn Boys” (DTs) of alcoholism was the hoodoo (uath dubh, dark phantom, evil specter) that haunted Eugene O’Neill and his family in the same way it haunted Irish America. O’Neill lost his grandfather, brother, and two sons to the Brooklyn Boys of the monkey (mian aingí, fretful craving) of alcoholism. The slug (slog, a sudden gulp or swallow) of booze(beathuis[ce],aqua vita, water of life, whiskey) from a friendly bootlegger (buidéalaí gar, a local bottler, an obliging bottler) could be more lethal to the head than a slugger’s (slacaire, a batter, a bruiser, a mauler’s) blackjack.

DC

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Domhnall
Member
Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 110
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yep tis very common for me - my mam works in a Gaelscoil - she speaks Gaeilge to me and English to the rest of my family. The odd word gets thrown in from the other langauge all the time. Indeed, in coláiste i speak Gaeilge in the classroom & with Gaeilgeoirí, then speak english with the rest. The odd word gets thrown in left right and centre..

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Max
Member
Username: Max

Post Number: 154
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>>it's very common that speakers of Swedish mix in Finnish words in their speech.
>>there are (far too) many speakers of Swedish in Helsinki who at times construct sentences using a Finnish syntax.

These phenomena are refered to as "interferences".
It happens when inside a linguistic structure (say Swedish) are introduced bits of another structure (say Finnish).


>>Code-switching a thugtar air.

This is yet something else.
(Generally, there is no interference where there is code switching, and vice versa.)
As its name tells, it happens when you switch linguistic structures (languages) within a sentence. But people don't switch anywhere in a sentence: since it is not a matter of interference, the switching can be done only when (or where) both linguistic structures allow it.


>>Are they even aware which parts belong to which language?

Not always with interference, because you don't always realize that you have mixed structures.
Yes with code switching (but then again you don't always pay attention to what you're saying).

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Dalta
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Posted From:
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dancas, when did that Irish-American venacular start to happen? I imagine around the 1840s or before when Irish immigration exploded. There's words there that are very common in English, tripe, slogger, etc. did they really come from Irish? I never would've thought it. Only one I have doubts about, when he called your man 'yellow', that would surely refer to 'yellow belly', a common phrase in southern america.

Although, in Irish 'buí' - yellow, can mean cowardly aswell.

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Sligeach
Member
Username: Sligeach

Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 04:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I know the Turks (at least in Germany) do that a lot, they talk a load of (what to me seems) gobbldygook and then all of a sudden you hear a few Germman words and then they continue with the gobbldygook.

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 249
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 08:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

In the US amongst the Spanish speaking citizens, this is knows as Spanglish.

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Lyn
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Posted From:
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Good day:

I am in Ottawa, Canada. I was raised bilingual English and French and am now learning Irish. I have started to learn German, Cantonese and Ukranian as well, but not as diligently as Irish.

I have also noticed that bilingual people here whose first language is French speak Franglais (mixing both languages in common conversations).

Love your site, by the way.

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Deiric
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Posted From:
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia duit a Lyn,
Where are you learning Irish in Ottawa? For your information, there will be an Irish language immersion weekend Sept. 16-18 in Arnprior. We are having a special guest teacher flown in from Ireland. As well, there will be many fluent speakers there. The weekend caters to all levels so hopefully you'll be able to make it. Feel free to email me for more information.
ceanada AT yahoo.ca

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Alix
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Posted From:
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I forget what it's called, but I know that a language developed in western Canada during the 1700-1800s that was a mixture of French and an aboriginal language. The speakers would use the aboriginal language for the verbs and the french language for the nouns, combining the strengths of both languages.

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Max
Member
Username: Max

Post Number: 155
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 06:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alix,

This unique French-Cree creole is called Michif.

(Message edited by Max on September 08, 2005)

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Lyn
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Posted From:
Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Hello Deiric:

I am learning Irish on my own. I only just started at the beginning of this year. I have several learning and reference books, which I use regularly, I listen to RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta daily to become accustomed to Irish conversations and I often lurk on message boards, like this one, to obtain tips on grammar rules, etc.

The language learning immersion weekend sounds interesting. However, that weekend, my daughter is coming over for her 20th birthday.

Are you involved with regular classes in Arnprior? Are there many people interested in learning Irish around here?

I am the only person I know trying to learn any different language. Good to hear from a fellow Ontarian.

Lyn

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 130
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 12:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

There's words there that are very common in English, tripe, slogger, etc. did they really come from Irish? I never would've thought it. Only one I have doubts about, when he called your man 'yellow', that would surely refer to 'yellow belly', a common phrase in southern america.
+++

Dalta: No, I don't agree with you on "yellow." When someone is "chicken" they "teith ar cheann" (flee first) in a de r/aig (drag) race or a fight; they are also e/alo/dh (yellow), absconding, sneaking away. "Tripe" is of course from dri/b and "slugger" from slacaire, which means "a batter, a bruiser, a mauler."

A slacaire (slugger) can be a baseball batter or a palooka (boxer) tuargain (dukin) it out in the ring. We have all been brainwashed by the anglophile anglo-nationalist educational establishments in USA which has made us clueless to the Irish in our own gob (cab, mouth) or puss (pus, lip, lips, fig. mouth.) the be/al o/nna )baloney) and moll labharachta (mullarkey) of the old American breac-Ghaeltachta saol luim (slum) was filled with a slua (slew) of irish words. Much of american so called slang is irish.

Yes, I would say around the 1840s is when irish american vernacular first gets noticed. though o'neill is the first one to use it on stage extensively in 1920s. the first major slang dictionary in US is Matsell's Vocabulum or the Rogue's Lexicon published in 1859. Matsell was former head copper (ceapadh, seizing, putting someone into stocks or custody, fig. a copper who does those things ) and the warden of Tombs Prison in the old Five Points. His dictionary is just phonetic English version of Irish words. For instance a dead "rabbit" was a dead ra/ibe/ad, a dead big galoot. there was no gang called Dead rabbits that is buain-chumadh (bunkum), or a shaggy dog story. How do I know? My family was from Five Points and East River breac-Ghaeltachta and we spoke that vernacular. I didn';t learn these words in a movie or detective novel. when I started to learn irish I realized I already knew many irish words. Tuig (Dig)? Tuig e/ no/ na/...Dig it or not... The snua ard (snoot) set and so/u/il (swells) of upper classes denied and still deny that Irish had any influence whatsoever on english. they are of course all dudes (du/d, du/id: rubberneckers, stupid persons.)ALL dictionary editors are middle AND UPPER-- class dudes (du/d, du/id) quoting dudes quoting swells (so/u/il, comfortable, luxurious, fig. a person who is comfortable) so we have a du/d quoting a "swell" quoting another swank (somhaoineach) bu/bai/. the raic ard (racket) and clamor (glam mo/r) and mayhem (maidhm, maoim) of the old breac-Ghaeltachta saol luim neighborhoods of nyc was the working class opera and shindig (seinnt teach)that Walt Whitman celebrated.

The Irish were a Gaelic voice of millions blending into a holler (oll-bhúir, terrific yell) and rollick (ramhailleach, wild ranting, delirious raving) of shanty (sean tí, old house) towns, and longshore (loingseoir, mariner, seaman, sailor, ship worker) port cities from Brooklyn to Barbados to Brazil.

The hi’falutin’ (uí bhfolaíocht án, descended from noble limeage, fig "blue blooded") English worshipping middle class dude professor is a nincompoop (naioidhean [ar] cum búb, an infant in the form of a blubbering boob) or over-educated “swell” (sóúil, prosperous, luxurious, fig. “wealthy person”)... the kind of dude (dúd, a dolt, a stupid person, a rubbernecker) that went “slumming” in the slum (saol luim, world of poverty) instead of a mick (mic, sons, descendant)born in one .
my point is that we need to hear the Irish in our own gobs (cab, mouth)... Tuig e/ no/ na/ - Dig it or not.

otherwise we will believe utter dri/b and be/al o/nna (baloney) of nincumpoops...like the famous etymology of bootlegger that claims that the word bootlegger comes from the practice of bootleggers smuggling the booze in bottles in their boots.

How many fifths of whiskey have you stuffed in your Doc Martens lately?

I gotta scaraim. enough moll labharachta (*mullarkey)

DC

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Deiric
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Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 11:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Lyn,
I actually live in Ottawa. There are many people in the region fluent in the language. As well, there are a lot of people in various stages of learning. There are some organised classes available through several different locations (University of Ottawa, Algonquin College, Glebe). I recommend that you contact Rosemary for more information. Her contact info is located here on the Daltai site:
http://www.daltai.com/classes.htm

If you are interested in dropping by for part of the weekend, you're certainly welcome! Just email myself or Rosemary for more info.

-Deiric

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Dalta
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Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dancas, well, I guess you learn something new every day. By the way, I wasn't brainwashed by anything American, I've never even been there, I was born and raised in Dublin. And I also knew of plenty of words from Irish now in English, I didn't, however, know that they were ones in such widespread usage. I especially find funny that 'dude' came from Irish, since I don't like that word as an Americanism used by those who hate their own culture. I wonder what they'd say if I told them its origins?

And, you seem to be having trouble with fadas, if you press AltGr plus the vowel, it gets it. Another way is to press Alt+Ctrl and the vowel, though I don't think that one works in all cases.

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Lex
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Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dalta - DanCasl's writings are his own theories and are not widely accepted. He cites Irish derivations for words that the dictionary gives other origins to. This, he claims, is due to anti-Irish bias on the part of editors. Since he has cited hundreds of words on this site, it seems highly improbable that his interpretations are valid. His street slang is from a lomg gone generation and its origins would be hard to prove.

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 136
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 03:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks Dalta for the tip on fadas.

Dúd is an insulting term. It was a munika (name) the Irish of the NYC saol luim hung on the uí bhfolaíochta án sóúil and somhaoineach sách úr who came down to the Five Points to slog beathuisce and ogle the cailíní, or try to buach the Fiaradh (faro, turning) game.

"Little Nellie Kelly with a dude as light as cork
Learned to do the waltz step on the sidewalks of NY." .

In the 1880s both NY Times and Brooklyn Eagle had lengthy articles debating whether the new slang term "dude" was a negative term or not. They decided it was. Though later it came to mean a natty (néata) dresser.

Eugene O'Neill uses it in his early one-act play "Abortion," (ca. 1915) as a very negative term, used by an Irish American working-class "staf" to put down an upper class Ivy league "ponach." The Ivy Leaguer was what they called used to call a "bodair (bodaire) an aicme án." Louis Armstrong recorded a song with that title in his first recording sessions, along with another tune called "Irish Black Bottom."

Lex-o, relax-o. The words can all be English or even Frisian, if that makes you feel better, dúd. Take a slog of uisce beatha, slacaire.

However, let me be clear: I do not -and never have- asserted that there are "hundreds" of Irish and Scots Gaelic words in American English. That is ridiculous and absurd. Who would say such a thing? He or she would be crazy to make that assertion.


I assert there are so many thousands and thousands of Irish and Gaelic words in English that they are uimhir dí- áireamh....

pax

DC

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Kevinb
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Username: Kevinb

Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dancas1,

Has there been any sort of formal study on this subject? It's really interesting and i'd like to read further into the matter.

Go raibh maith agat.



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