It's odd that I feel such a desire for Irish to become a (more) living and national language, considering I do not speak it, but I've been musing over what it takes to bring a language back from the dead or the dying.

The only successful language revival I know anything about is Hebrew. So my question is, does a language have to be necessary in order for a revival to occur. I understand that this was the case with Hebrew, as there was a necessity for a uniting language at the time. Do you think a language has to be necessary for a country, government, and culture in order to be succcessfully saved? I'm asking out of curiosity, because I don't know anything about the details of the Gaeilge situation, and I'm wondering if the activists feel there is such a need.

But what exactly in your opinion needs to happen for Irish to become truely revived? And how and when would you be able to say that Irish has been revived? What are the conditions that need to be met? I've read that it has to be more than a hearth language, but do you think Irish has the ability to turn into the first language of government usage and everything in between?

I look forward to reading your opinions on this.

I have been told that the Hebrew example is not a very good parallel to Irish for a number of reasons.

A good example, however, would be the Basque revival. They're not even independent, and certainly don't "need" the Basque language to get along in either France or Spain (mostly Spain), and yet seem (by the accounts i've heard) to actually be doing with their language what the Irish have been *trying* to do for a century

i'd be interested to know if anyone has any firsthand experience with what they're doing there...

Basque is indeed a much better example for Irish than Hebrew. As Antaine said, there are many reasons why Irish and Hebrew cannot really be compared.

Unfortunately, I have to say that I think the chances for an Irish revival are very slim. The Basque revival is fuelled by a strong sense of nationalism in the Basque country, and the Basque language is the main symbol for not being Spanish.

In Ireland, the situation is very different. Ireland is already independent, so the language movement has not been a unifying force. In fact, the Irish revival was strongest BEFORE independence. Neither is the situation in the six counties comparable. There, the language is one thing that people identify with. The main difference to the Basque country is that in the Basque country there's a substantial body of Basque speakers who speak Basque all the time. There's no Gaeltacht in the six counties at all, and even if there was a small Gaeltacht comparable to the ones in the republic, it would not be enough. To arrive at the Basque STARTING POINT, what would be needed is that at least one county, say Tyrone, would be mostly Irish speaking and that about 25% in a major city, say Derry, would speak Irish. In other words, it is almost impossible to imagine that Irish could arrive even at the point that the Basque revival started from.

For some reason, the Irish people abandonded their language long ago. I've often noticed that many people in Ireland seem to think that this was something natural and common. Far from it. In fact, the Celtic languages have been extremely bad at maintaining their own, especially in the period 1800-1920. At the beginning of that time, languages such as Finnish, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Slovak, Slovenian, Albanian and Macedonian were all in a weaker state than the Celtic languages. In most cases, the number of speakers was lower and none of these peoples had had any independence nor was there any independence in sight for them. Yet during this period they all grew in strength and by 1920 they were all firmly at the safe side, most of them national languages already at that time. During the same time, Irish and Gaelic collapsed almost completely, Welsh experienced an enormous set back and the beginning of the very rapid decline of Breton had begun. Many "small" peoples succesfully held on to their language and cultivated it during the 19th century. Unfortunately, the Celtic peoples walked another way. I would sincerely hope that the tide could be changed, but I don't consider it realistic.

I'd advocate two tactics:

1) Actual good teaching and immersion

Get some fluent speakers of the language in to teach the language proficiently in schools, from age 4 to age 16. Gaelscoileanna seem to be a great idea... but I've never been to one so I can't say for definite.

2) Mind games... but in good way!

Don't just encourage the people to speak the language... taunt them! Use the media. Show clips of Spanish people speaking Spanish in front of English people, where the English people are completely oblivious to what's being said. Show some Japanese people. Show some Estonian people. Show some Swedish people. Then show some Irish people, and direct as much shame and disgrace, but above all, ridicule, as you can. What effect will it have? People tend to show most defiance at the worst times, they'll grab on to anything they can take pride from, anything that will basically shout back "f*** off". So what'll they do? Learn Irish. Maybe next time they say "Tiocfaidh ár lá", they'll actually know what it means!

I concur on both counts.

we're not past the point of no return yet...and there's still time to make a few more mistakes along the way - but not many.

And who knows what is in the immediate future? conception of a new eduaction program? a hit tv show? a war? something good (or bad) with the situation in the north? any number of things can spark a sense of pride and patriotism that would find its focus in the language. To sit around and wait for it would be a bad idea, but the point is "never say never"...

Coming from the Hebrew world, I think there are some lessons one can learn from the revival, first and foremost, dont despair - as the slogan used to say "tiocfaidh ár lá" but this time for a different fight.

Another lesson is that without fight it won't happen, because many people don't agree with that position.

As a minority language keepers there should be a decision - where to?!

As I see it, there's a lot of projects and attempts to resuscitate an teanga, but the overall feelings is that it's not working.

BTW from aside it seems to me it does work, and it does make through to many who charish Irish heritage.

The last thing is flexibility - don't be square when talking about language borrowings and changes - if you want a fluent and living language - let it be one!

But as I said - it's all from aside and watching the Welsh - that seems to be progressing (though there are reports that contradict this, just like any other news report)you could learn from their fight too.

Hebrew is changing - the language we had in the 20's is very different from the one of the 60's and 70's and extremely different of the one today spoken. Take that in consideration too.

:-)

Ridicule as a teaching method is ridiculous. It doesn't inspire a desire to learn - just a sense of shame and inferiority. Better to ban the language altogether - the surest way to get an Eireannach to do something is to tell him he can't.

Lol, I think you might be right.

Something I'm sure of is that you can't encourage people to learn the language or to watch TG4 with boring series and smalltalk show, which are unnecessary!


This might kill us all! Nothing with vigour? nothing that can make people more interested in Gaelic TV?

The problem is, all the good shows are in English. Amú Amigos, the OC, all those American dramas. The best thing TG4 did was get those big sporting events. Even then though, Béarlagóirs who have the opportunity watch EuroSport or something instead. As well as that, people don't put down the remote and go 'Jayzus, that was some Tour de France race, I'll think I'll learn Irish now', they just go and eat their dinner and forget about it.

I don't think the power of publicity can be played up too much. People do what's popular, look at Make Poverty History, everyone knew that people were dying in Africa, but until a load of hype happened, they didn't do anything. Look at Shelbourne FC in Europe the other year, no one normally goes to their games, but when there was hype about the Deportivo La Coruna game, 30,000 people went and more wanted to go.

We need to attack the Béarlagóirs where it hurts, their pride, like Fear na mBróg said. We need the CnaG guy(that's how bad it is, I dont even know his name), to call the Béarlagóirs English, the only thing that could show they're not English is if they speak Irish. Do like Dubhglas de hÍde did in the day and Saunders Lewis did in Wales, challenge them to prove that they're Irish by learning Irish. Not only that, but we need cool stuff like Hector Ó hEocagháin, only someone who does it in Irish. Like the guy above said, we don't need smalltalk shows with people no one's heard of, we don't want cool American shows in English either, that defeats the purpose. Ros na Rún is a widely reknowned show, though it doesn't get a lot of respect from the younger generations. A comedy show wouldn't go astray either.

To be honest, I don't involve much in the Irish language media, occasionally I but Lá cause it's an interesting, debate-sparking paper. The rest, not that there's a lot else, is fairly boring stuff. And If you can't convince someone who can speak Irish to indulge in the Irish language media, what hope do you have to get someone hostile to the language involved?

I'm going on a bit now, so I'll just say that it needs a serious think from a government sponsered panel of experts. A strategy needs to be set up immediately and something major has to be done. And it must be done at the top level, because the low, average people don't have the time or money for doing these things. But, the problem is, no one cares and English is the cool thing to be. English culture, English language, English accent etc, so if things continue the way they are, Irish'll be dead by 2050, and that's a fairly optimistic target.

Ridicule is a punisher; or, in the language of the learning theorists, negative reinforcement.

I recall reading years ago that about 95% of the reinforcement in the American, public school system is negative despite the fact that it is virtually undisputed that negative reinforcement is ineffective. That means that all the learning that does take place is in response to the remaining 5% reinforcement.

Nuff said about ridiculing anyone into learning anything. If you really want people to speak Irish, pay them money. It's the best known reinforcment ever.

i've long thought that the best thing the gov't could do would be to dismantle the gaeltacts, suspend all programs and say, "that's it...we give up, it's hopeless..." and then stand back and watch a grassroots revival of such pitch and moment as has never been seen in all of Irish history...simply because the general population was told "you can't"



but seriously key factors that need to be exploited to the hilt are

1) economics - make it monetarily beneficial to use and conduct business in irish

2) shame - the language was damaged over a long period through shame...now people need to be made ashamed of not doing their part. a slow-growing, long-term revival is preferable to a fast moving, flash in the pan type revival.

3) "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" - don't give them a choice - slowly turn all schools into gaeilscoils. get 'em when they're four years old and don't let 'em go. simply put: all education in Ireland is to be in Irish. period. start with kindergartens and work your way up. it will take a long time to get enough teachers anyway. start with the urban schools - those with the greatest number of teachers and students per building.

And for heaven's sake let's get it through our heads that a people (nation) is defined by its borders, its culture, and its language. There's more to preserving a language than preserving the language. The three items are inextricably interwoven. I suppose some would counter this arguement with one favoring the new world order: first your currency; then your identity. After all, what was so bad about Austria for Germans in the 1930's?

In my lifetime the currency of Ireland has changed, from Punts, to decimal currency, to Euro, and after the initial reluctance and grumbling, everyone adapted. And so it could be with a neo-revival of the language.
The shame of the Irish Govt. is that it doesn't care whether the language survives or not. If you watch the procedings from the Dail on TV, one, perhaps two members will speak in Irish. Are we the only country in Europe that conducts it's governmental business in a foreign language?
I applaud all of you on this forum who are passionate about the language, and your efforts to promote it's use.
I grew up in the Dublin of the 50s-60s, and well remember our school master telling us that Irish was pig-latin, and he didn't want to hear it. To my own shame, I still can't speak my own tongue.
Keep it going, or Ireland will truely have lost it's identity.

31000 children enrolled in gaeilscoils for the coming year must give some hope, no?

Wow, 31000? Where did you read that? That's incredible.

Féach http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie

5 % de dhaltaí bunscoile na tíre anois. Caithfear cuir le líon na meánscoileanna.

it was on two articles posted in other threads here this past week...25000 in primary schools and a further 6000 in high schools was what one of the articles cited (the other was (if i recall) within 1000 of that figure. there's at least one gaeilscoil in every county now, with four new ones opening this year.

"Do you think a language has to be necessary for a country, government, and culture in order to be succcessfully saved?"
The language is the most central part of almost all world cultures. Thanks to the Offical Languages Act 2003, Gaeilge is necessary for govt *well to some extent anyways*
"do you think Irish has the ability to turn into the first language of government usage" To quote article 8 of the constitution;
"Irish as the national language is the first offical language."
Of course this is not the case in practice.

I think the biggest stone in the way of revival is education.. Discussing that would take up it's own thread. Also, people who appreciate Gaeilge should promote it on a personal level - using the cúpla focal as often as possible - voting for someone who supports the language - joining a conversation group etc..
The language will start being truly revived simply when more people use it.]

Eh jonas i dont know what planet (or country more likely) you're living on but "There's no Gaeltacht in the six counties" is wrong. There is! Bothar Seoighe.. Anderstown.. Lá.. Féile an Phobail.. Ring any bells?!
"For some reason, the Irish people abandonded their language long ago" Hmmm - it was illegal. They, we, were persecuted for using it. It was associated with poverty. Will you wise up and read a history book! You say that as if the people just stopped speaking it one day or something.

My mam works in a Gaelscoil and she said that the children speak Gaeilge the whole time. Even when spoken to in English, the other children reply as Gaeilge. Seems like a good sign to me.
Oibríonn mo mháthair i nGaelscoil - bíonn na páistí ag caint as Gaeilge an t-am ar fad.. Fiú nuair a úsáideann páiste tugann na páistí eile freagra dó/di as Gaeilge

I agree shove it in their faces.. The problem is - who's going to do that? Cumann Gaelach? Na Gaeil Oga? USI? Gerry Adams? Nelson Mandela?
What we need is a body capable of achieving these noble a worthy aims we speak of!!

>>"For some reason, the Irish people abandonded their language long ago" Hmmm - it was illegal. They, we, were persecuted for using it. It was associated with poverty.

But the fact that a language is illegal and/or associated with poverty doesn't always lead to its (near) extinction. There's more to it than *just* that.

"But the fact that a language is illegal and/or associated with poverty doesn't always lead to its (near) extinction. There's more to it than *just* that."
Emigration too, and plenty others I won't bother with. We all now why it declined, we need to find out now what will revive it.

31,000 people enrolling in Gaelscoileanna isn't a great figure. It's hopeful, and if it continues to rise than it'll a good thing. We need more than just Gaelscoileanna though, we need better teachers, more opportunities to use it, more practical ways to use it, better services around the country, more exposure, etc.

"Will you wise up and read a history book!"
"Eh jonas i dont know what planet (or country more likely) you're living on"

A rather polite one in general. Listen, it's obvious from your posts to us foreigners that you have a big attitude problems to foreigners taking an interest in Irish. I suggest you work a bit on that part. Otherwise, you have some good ideas.

(Message edited by jonas on September 05, 2005)

Hebrew is a bad example for revival and also I must say is Welsh which has 500,000 speakers. Welsh declined from 37% speakers in 1900 to 21% today which is hardly success.Also if 27% of their primary schools are Welsh speaking then 73% are English speaking. Irish has declined from 10% 1922 to 2 % today. I wonder if someone would be brave enough to write an article in an English speaking daily newspaper stating that the monoglot English speakers in Ireland were in fact English in mind and body and that if they are Irish they should learn Irish! I feel us Irish speakers are way superior to these English speakers because we speak the language spoken in Ireland for two thousand years and we have resisted the inferiority complex visited on the rest of the population.Of course we are superior! We have won the cultural battle. Finally I must say I think the analogy about the Basques is brilliant. Best way to promote Irish in the North and border counties is to say that "the Irish language respects no borders and will be spoken by all who believe in Ireland and it's culture". In the Basque country there is no border with France or Spain the Basque is spoken over borders.

>I wonder if someone would be brave enough to write an >article in an English speaking daily newspaper stating >that the monoglot English speakers in Ireland were in >fact English in mind and body and that if they are >Irish they should learn Irish!

Ba bhreá liom go ndéanfadh duine ineacht sin. Is fada ó tá mé ’fanacht go ndéanfar sin in Éirinn. Charbh é ’n Rialtas a ghéanfadh, mar nach bhfuil Gaeilg ag an chuid is mó do lucht an Rialtais agus do na polaiteoirí in Éirinn, dar liom.
Cha dtig liomsa é a dhéanamh siocair nach Éireannach mé, agus mhaslóchadh daoiní áiríd mé gan amhras - tá daoiní thall nach bhfuil dúil acu ins na stráinséirí.

Would it be rude to ask for people to not make posts in Irish only for this thread? This is really interesting for me I would hate to miss out on someone's opinions because I don't speak Irish.

Translation of my last post:

I would like someone to do that. I'm waiting for a long time that someone would do that in Ireland (?sorry for mistakes). It isn't the government who would do that, because most people in the government and most politicians don't speak Irish, I think.
I can't do it myself because I'm not Irish, so some people would insult me, undoubtedly. There are some people over there who don't like foreigners.

Guys! You should definitely get a hold of "The Economist" 13th-19th August's issue - the article is called "From mother tongue to meal ticket" (subtitle - Welsh). A lot of interesting stats, language speaking map and so on. Also a lt deliberation why % of speakers is growing (from 19% to 21% of total population 1991 to 2001) with Cardiff (least Welsh speaking!) growing from 5.8% to 10.9%.

Synopsis: Welsh has become matter of prestige, nationalistic feeling to make a distinction from the English (some bilingual road signs have English words sprayed over! ;))), teenagers more likely to speak than their parents, since 1993 public agencies are obliged to provide a bilingual service even in areas where few understand Welsh; court cases can can be heard entirely in the language if the plaintiff or defendant chooses. There are 448 primary schools and 54 secondary schools that entirely or mostly in Welsh; most stable and most interesting jobs require the language, or are thought to require the language. public sector is hungry for bilinguals, so are burgeoning government-supported Welsh media. This in turn encourages politicians and public figures to learn the language. High demand means that Welsh speaker tend to be middle managers or small business owners, and earn more than English monoglots (6-8% according to a recent study).

A Rómáin, I read that article as well. One of the most interesting recent articles concerning language revival. Lots of good points in it, especially it's final claim.

You might be interested in a column I wrote recently which touches on this subject:
http://www.scoilgaeilge.org/t_na_t/TnaTMay05.htm

"According to figures from the Primary Office of Statistics in Ireland, one out of three people in the Republic indicated that they spoke Irish on the census in 2002. That’s 1,570,894 people! And in the 6 counties, there are another 167,000 – more than 10% of the population! This is the greatest number of Irish speakers that there has been in Ireland since 1861"

Here is a question: how many people in Ireland are as fluent in Irish as the average person here is in English?

5000?

10000?

Is Gaeilgeoir mé féin as Dúiche Sheoighe ar an Teorainn idir Maigh Eo agus Gaillimh agus Gaeilge is my First Tongue.The only way to keep the language alive is to use the spoken word only till the age of 10.In secondary school grammar should be vey limited until the pupils get to about 15.It should not be on the Junior Cert.I hated the Grammadach gaeilge in secondary school even though I am a cainteoir Dúchais.It was more difficult than latin or French and I did both for my Inter cert and Leaving Cert.The quality of the teachers and their Fluency in the language leave a lot to be desired and Natives(native speakers) could make a beeter jist of it than so-called Múinteoirí Gaeilge.I cannot see a way back for the labguage.I am 42 years old and when I went to St Enda's in Salthill to sec school we were looked down as "gringos" as the term that given to the boarders from the Aran Isles who also spoke among themselves "exclusively tré ghaeilge" .That snobbish attitude among non-Irish speakers has not gone away and never will.We speak/spoke the "savages language" a common attitude of English people to Scots and Welsh languages.I know I lived in England from 1987 to 2004

A Mhicheáil, is dóigh liom gur tusa an t-aon chainteoir Gaeltachta anseo! Fáilte romhat. Scríobh i nGaeilg a mhinice is féidir, cinnte gur s’iomaí rud a fhoghlaimeochas muid uilig a bhuíochas ort.

The snobbish attitude against Celtic and Scots languages is completely stupid. English is a savages' language as well: G.W.Bu$h speaks it :-D.

Robert, there's 65,000 people who speak Irish in the Gaeltacht, so I'd say that's the number true number of Irish speakers and those who are fluent. Maybe add another thousand or two for the rest of Ireland.

"Robert, there's 65,000 people who speak Irish in the Gaeltacht, so I'd say that's the number true number of Irish speakers and those who are fluent. Maybe add another thousand or two for the rest of Ireland."

I think you're number for the Gaeltacht is too high. I doubt there are even 40.000 people in the Gaeltacht who use Irish as their main language. What I definitely know is that your number for the Galltacht is too low. While the number of speakers given in the census is a joke, it's definitely more than 1.000-2.000.

Shame will not work as a method for reviving the Irish language. One of the least appealing characteristics of the movement is its sense of moral superiority and the sanctimonious whiff of anti-English bigotry that it gives off. Irish people are not lesser moral beings or any less Irish, because they speak English. Irish should be embraced in a positive fashion as an essential part of our culture in the same way that Irish music was embraced in the sixties and seventies. Nobody listens to Planxty out of a sense of shame. They do it because they love the music.

Well, you need some sort of patriotism in yer ears to listen to that rubbish...

quote:

One of the least appealing characteristics of the movement is its sense of moral superiority and the sanctimonious whiff of anti-English bigotry that it gives off.

I agree with this. However, I think this is perceived, rather than real. Most of the "activists" I know do not feel "more Irish" or "morally superior" - we just want to get on with living as much as possible of our lives through Irish, and do not want to see the resource that is a second langauge wasted.

First of all Jonas i do apologise for my rudeness. Im sorry but what you said was indeed rúbáiste.. Im a little patriot and get just a tad hot under the collar when such things are said - Its bad enough when its the Unionists or indeed people who live in the Republic..But when its someone who speaks the language its worse.. I dont know where you're getting the whole "you have a big attitude problems to foreigners taking an interest in Irish." Let me state here and now that that's ridiculous and untrue.. And listen fair-play to you *and all other foreign people* for showing an interest - - its badly needed to preserve our precious language.

"someone would be brave enough to write an article in an English speaking daily newspaper stating that the monoglot English speakers in Ireland were in fact English in mind and body and that if they are Irish they should learn Irish!" I'd say they'd publish that alright ;)

It was said that C 1900 Ireland got her independence and lost her language. Wales kept her language and lost her independence.

MickRua - You should reply to these anglo-philes - "Is Gael mise agus táim bródúil as! What or who exactly are you?" - - Ba cheart go mbeadh dochas agus muinín agat don teanga!

Liam you legend! Tá an ceart ar fad agat.. Caithfidh go bhfuil na "Political tendencies" cearta agat! ;)

"A people without a language of its own is only half a nation. A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river." - Thomas Davis
*agus tá an iomarca quotes mar sin ar mo shuíomh nua..

Does anyone know who said ;
Its time to embrace the superior race. And what was it in relation to?

A Dhalta, Jonas is right.. Im pretty sure the number is between 20-25,000.. And 1000-2000 more outside the Gaeltacht.. Not at all! Tis way WAY higher than that!

"First of all Jonas i do apologise for my rudeness. Im sorry but what you said was indeed rúbáiste.. Im a little patriot and get just a tad hot under the collar when such things are said - Its bad enough when its the Unionists or indeed people who live in the Republic..But when its someone who speaks the language its worse.. I dont know where you're getting the whole "you have a big attitude problems to foreigners taking an interest in Irish." Let me state here and now that that's ridiculous and untrue.. And listen fair-play to you *and all other foreign people* for showing an interest - - its badly needed to preserve our precious language."

Thank you. I, in turn, apologise for the comment about your attitude to foreigners as it turns out to be incorrect.

What I tried to point out in my original post is that the Celtic languages didn't face difficulties that other languages didn't face as well. Finnish, Estonian, Lithuanian, Polish, Croatian and other languages were in the same situation. I know that the Irish, and other Celts, were persecuted for using Irish, but so were many other peoples in Europe. It is clear beyond doubt that the English tried to stamp out the Celtic languages, but that alone does not explain why the Celtic languages faired so much worse than other European languages that also faced harsh measures.

The Celtic languages weren't the only ones to come almost to the brink of extinction. Occitan has done very badly in the last 100 years, but in its case (and some other languages, such as Italian regional dialects) the problem has been that they have been close to the languages that have taken their place.

While not being absolutely unique in having lost their languages as the majority language, the Celtic nations are almost the only ones that in the 19th century possessed both a fair number of speakers and territory and still ended up with the majority speaking another language. I'm sure we all agree that it's an unfortunate development. What I'd like to point out is that there must have been other factors behind it than those we have discussed. In order to discuss a revival, I think there might be a point in trying to find those factors.

This is a very interesting thread.

I, for one, did not grow up with Gaeilge as my 'first language'. Like (most) everyone else, it was just something you had to learn in school. I know now, looking back, that I was really blessed to encounter two amazing women who were not only great speakers of the language but great lovers of it and it's ability for a beautiful turn of phrase.
One was old-school and quite a battle-ax ! She drummed it all into your head without ceremony but ... on those days when someone miraculously got into a good run, she really showed how much the language meant to her; how important it was to her that some of us, at least, would leave her classroom knowing some of our native tongue. The second was a sweet darling woman whom I still remember so fondly - she taught us songs in Irish and poems and we did things that gave us interesting ways of using the language ... like researching the places we came from using the place name in Gaeilge rather than Béarla.

I am getting away from my original thought though. I wanted to add to this discussion another small corner of the globe with gaelic roots. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. This place has found a permanent home in my heart; it's the closest thing to home I've ever found (outside of really being there).
Theirs is a small island and by the 1980's their traditional identity was all but gone. Their revival began with their music and went from there. Their language (from the Scottish Gaeilge) is not spoken as the first language but they are reviving ALL of their identity - music, dance, language. They have a Gaelic College and a huge international Celtic festival every October.

I think a revival is possible and I think it can grow ad pick up momentum. As an emigrant, I do find that I, personally, want to be able to speak as Gaeilge simply as a means of identifying myself as Irish but also as a means of personal pride. I am proud of where I come from, I want to speak our teanga.

I think a site like this and a forum where you can USE the language (and I intend to use what cúpla focail I can on here too) can help a lot.

sorry, have to go ..... will be back soon
C

"I, personally, want to be able to speak as Gaeilge simply as a means of identifying myself as Irish but also as a means of personal pride. I am proud of where I come from, I want to speak our teanga. "
You see we need more people like you! ;)

"I think a site like this and a forum where you can USE the language (and I intend to use what cúpla focail I can on here too) can help a lot."
Ceart ar fad agatsa aríst.. All this talk related to language regeneration and we failed to mention that in using this *marvellous* forum we are keeping interest in Gaeilge alive and as long as people log on and use their cúpla focal or more the language will live and our hopes of a fresh start don Ghaeilge may be realised.
Go n-éiri an t-ádh linn!!

Jonas, The reasons I think are behind the language deprival:
Persecution
Emigration
English as the power-language
Irish seen as used by lower-class people
Irish not being key to Irish identity
English influence in Ireland(tv, media, etc.)
Irish 'not cool'
Bad teaching
Bad government decisions regarding it


I feel that's probably enough to kill most languages, although I probably have forgotten some.

It'll take a few more than that to kill off Irish :)

I have no doubt that Irish is gaining in popularity and this media right here (the internet) is where the new communities are being formed. Give it time and it'll spill on to the streets..

Sin mo bharúil ar aon chaoi.

A Dhalta,

May I add another reason to the list you gave above?
This is probably the one that bugs me the most.

" Ridicule ". I just can't stand being put down for being Irish. Besides, it doesn't make any sense.

I feel that's probably enough to kill most languages, although I probably have forgotten some.

A Dhalta, a chara,

I would add to your list the 'caraciture' of the Irishman which emerged and remained a part of American culture during the past 100 years. Prominant to this caraciture is that this travesty speaks English, and I might add, he does so in an accent that sounds so little like most Irishmen with their wonderful diversity of pronunciations as to be unreconizeable as Irishmen. I don't believe many of us realize the draw this caraciture has upon the perception of the public at large. It's used to sell stuff from cereal to soap.

I have some framed verses fron An Bíobla Naofa hanging on the wall of my office. Patients often ask what that is, and when I explain that it's Irish, they reply,

"The Irish have a language?"

This is coming from university educated, well-to-do professionals! Of course. Their experience with 'Irish' has been limited to "ME LUCKY CHARMS" and deoorant soap that must 'be after makin' you smell like the sod' because it comes in a green box.

You could tell them it smells of clabber and not injure sales.

Dalta, that is the point I'm making. All the things you list, persecution, emigration, the language seen as having lower status, not being used by the upper classes, not being used in schools and so on and so on - all of those happened all across Europe. The countries I listed, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Slovakia and Croatia all experienced all of those points (and some more). So your guess that it's enough to kill most languages doesn't really stand, because all of those languages thrive today.

The one difference I see is that most of those states had different imperial powers on their borders, whereas Ireland was dominated by one; which happens also to be the one whose language is the current dominant economic language.

Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were under Russian rule, Slovakia and Croatia were under Hungarian. None of those were exactly advocating the soft handed approach... :-) Poland was divided between Germany, Russia and Austria, although most Poles lived in Russia - but that's only one of the six countries. And the fact that English is the dominating language today can't possibly (I think?) have had any relevance in the period 1800-1920. It was only during the last years of that period that English started to emerge as a dominant language. Even long after that, languages such as German, French and Russian were more widely known in Europe.

Tá gráin ar theanga ar nós ciníochas(racism).Rud ar bith atá difrúil nó thar an gnáth bíonn amhras nó faitíos roimhe.Níl milleán le dul ar na daoine atá beo inniu ach tá sé dul ar na glúnta a tháinig romhainn a chaith drochmheas ar an teanga agus a bhreathnaigh anuas ar Ghaelgeoirí mar bhí siad ró -leiscúil an teanga a fhoghlaim.Gaeilge a ba ea teanga na mbocht agus sin mar bhí.Tá moladh ag dul d'éinne a dhéanann an iarracht agus a tá sásta an t-am a chur isteach.Is páirt den tír seo an Ghaeilge mar is ea na cnoic, na crainn, na locha an t-aer
Mholfainn díobh "An illustrated History of Ireland from AD 400 to 1800" by Mary Frances Cusack ISBN:1-85891-378 a léamh agus osclófaidh sí súile éinne

Russian rule for Finland, say, was balanced by past Swedish rule; How long was Finland under Russian rule?

All the other countries shared a border with another major power - at one stage Poland was a major power.

Ireland was colonised by England from 1600 on, with no other dominant power close, although Spain and France were influential from a distance.

you are right that many other langauges have suffered, but what sets Irish apart is qualitative not quantitative (eg- it's not that anything different was done to irish than the others, but the degree to which it was done was much greater).

for instance, the education system in say, czarist russia, was nowhere near the scope and organization of the british system. there were fewer country folk (irish speakers in the west) than there were poles to start with, and all their children were forced to go to the british school where they were beaten for speaking irish even outside of class. from what i know of poland from my own family, the russian powers-that-be likely were content to leave the average pole on their farm rather than educate them...and what schooling they had was locally-run (by polish speakers).

russia annexed her part of poland in 1772 while the english arrived in the late 1100s and began in earnest to actively undermine and destroy all aspects of a distinct irish culture in the 1500s.

by the time russia had been in control of poland for less than 100 years gaelic ireland was already on the brink, and then the famine decimated the population even more.

and i know the next step is to say that even concerted efforts in smaller places by the more organized soviets failed, but keep in mind that the soviet system was around for only about 75 years - a single lifetime for many people. had the soviets been "russifying" the baltic states or azerbaijan for 500 years rather than 75 they likely would have succeeded.

the entire british imperial system (government, education, philosophy, economics etc) was one big culture-killing machine. it had centuries to perfect its methods of 'civilizing' those it conquered and ireland has the unenviable position of being the first to be conquered, one of the last to be freed, and physically closer to england than all the others but wales.

"the entire british imperial system (government, education, philosophy, economics etc) was one big culture-killing machine...ireland has the unenviable position of being the first to be conquered, one of the last to be freed, and physically closer to england than all the others but wales.''
So our culture is dead is it? What about James Joyce, Yeats, Sam Beckett, Sean O Riada, the Radiators from Space, Flann O'Brien, Gay Byrne, the Lambert puppet theatre, DJ Carey, Tayto Crisps etc . English is part of our culture whether you like it or not. Ireland was not one of the last to be "freed''. Most countries achieved independence later. The historical position is much more complex than you portray.
The "Irish story'', retold above, may be one of 800 years of oppression by perfidious Brits, but, of course, many Irish people embraced English culture willingly and many of the invaders became more "Irish than the Irish themselves''. Douglas Hyde, who set this Irish revival ball rolling, was from the Prod ascendancy class.
Irish fell into decline because the Irish middle class became enthusiastic anglophiles, producing a culture that was Catholic, Victorian (long after the old Bag died), imperial, puritanical, while being ostensibly home rule and even separatist.
Irish is now recovering, because the same class is rediscovering the language in vast numbers. But they still like a bit of the old Jane Austens. For every Aoife and Caoimhe, there is an Emma and a Sarah.

Sa Bhriotáin, faigheann tú chóir a bheith na cúiseannaí céanna:

Persecution
Emigration
French as the power-language
Breton seen as used by lower-class people
Breton not being key to Breton identity
French influence in Brittany (tv, media, etc.)
Breton 'not cool' for most young people
Bad teaching
NO government decisions regarding it


>- a single lifetime for many people. had the soviets >been "russifying" the baltic states or azerbaijan for >500 years rather than 75 they likely would have >succeeded.

Thoisigh Rialtas na Fraince a mharbhadh na teangtha i ndeireadh an 19ú haois. I dtús an 20ú, bhí Briotáinis ag gach aon duine (nó chóir a bheith) i dtír na Briotáinise (leath iarthair na Briotáine): milliún duine go leith, b’fhéidir. Céad bliain ina dhiaidh sin, níl sí ach ag mionlach beag den phobal - seandaoiní don chuid is mó, níl ach cupla duine óg a bhfuil an teangaí ó dhúchas acu. Agus meastar go mbeidh sí chóir a bheith marbh mar theangaí dhúchasach i gceann 20 bliain. Thóg sé giota beag níos mó ná céad bliain (abair, 150 bliain) le teangaí agus cultúr a mharbhadh: tá ’n Rialtas Francach iontach éifeachtach!

"So our culture is dead is it? "

nope...never said that. but the british, no matter where they went, felt that the best thing they could do for the native population would be to stomp out the language, the customs the religion - everything non-british.

Ireland suffered much damage due to the degree of exclusivity in its british contact, proximity to london, length of time, organization of the destruction methods etc.

Anywhere the british went from Ireland to the Bahamas, Africa to India to Australia the situation was the same for all native peoples they encountered, differing only in size of the original population and length of time under the mallet...

This is a very interesting thread! I have a question in terms of the economic impact of the use of the Irish language. Are there relevant resources that discuss the costs and economic benefits of encouraging industries related to the language? I am wondering about the negative and positive consequences. It would seem to me that tourism, publishing, education, and so forth, benefit from people's interests in learning and using the language. I know that I myself have bought quite a few learning aids and other items to better my abilities. I would imagine that scholars or organizations have written about the economic benefits (or even the opposite) in terms of the use of Irish and would appreciate any references to this. Thanks. My apologies if this has been addressed before.

Mise le meas,

Mícheál

Jonas, what Antaine said. But also, colonialism I'd say had a big affect too. The English came to Ireland in person and took over, forcing their subjects to learn English etc. The Russians just kept garrisons and things around and most likely the same in other countries. Though, I could well be wrong, but I think the colonialism would've had a decent effect.

"Russian rule for Finland, say, was balanced by past Swedish rule; How long was Finland under Russian rule?"

Just 108 years, so of course Ireland was longer under English rule. But that's still only part of the solution, Slovenia was under German rule and influence for much longer than Ireland was under English rule, and the Slovenians were much fewer. And Finland was under foreign rule for longer than Ireland, so were most of the countries I listed.

"for instance, the education system in say, czarist russia, was nowhere near the scope and organization of the british system."

That I think we can all agree on ;-) But you know the German efficiency, and Slovenian is still very much with us. The Hungarians were particularly persistent in trying to make Croatia and Hungary speak Hungarian.


"had the soviets been "russifying" the baltic states or azerbaijan for 500 years rather than 75 they likely would have succeeded."

75? They were under Russia for much longer, from the 17th century. And in opposition to Poland, they were very small nations.

When outlining the disadvantages for Irish compared with others, it might make sense to remind everyone that the Irish language has a long history as a language of culture. Except for Polish, no other of the languages I mentioned had anything even close to what Irish had in terms of cultural history or in terms of number of speakers.

"The Russians just kept garrisons and things around and most likely the same in other countries. Though, I could well be wrong"

Yes ;-)

as for the economics, the pro-gaeilge represents a niche market, a good chunk of which is in the US.

for a corporation to offer services in irish in addition to english costs them money that is not compensated by offering those services. by contrast, to omit irish and go english only loses them virtually no business as they have no gaeilge-competitors and the gaeilgeoirí will use the english services without a hiccup.

hence what i say about the need for the government to offer monetary bonuses to businesses willing to offer significant services in gaeilge.

"for a corporation to offer services in irish in addition to english costs them money that is not compensated by offering those services."

That's precisely the topic of my PhD thesis. I'm happy to say that I don't fully agree with you about the conclusion you make, though. ;-)

oh, please prove me wrong. i've long felt that economics was one of the big stumbling blocks for gaeilge...to find that somewhat mitigated today would be beautiful!

One point why have not touched on, (and which pains me to mention!) is the way the Roman Catholic Church, after the penal laws were loosened, embraced English culture.

Since the priests would have been leaders of the people this did a great deal of harm to the language.

The Church leaders were trying to show loyalty to England to avoid any return of a threat to the Church.

This is very different to what happened in, say, Poland.

The attitude lasted a very long time (and may be still partly with us) - when the Rath Cairn Gaeltacht was set up, a parish priest told some of the old people (who had almost no english) that they would have to confess in his Left ear (which was to the wall) if they wanted to confess in Irish.

I am was brewing inside to write something, but Aonghus has touched upon very sensitive point, so I will divulge my thoughts now.

So - first about the role of the Church. I fully agree and support the point of view that Church has been (sometimes - still is, witness Italy) instrumental in setting the social trends, especially when related to rural population. The Polish Church has been responsible for near extintion of Lithuanian language, but i will return to that point.

Other points - about uniqueness of Irish language's plights. Me, as person living on the eastern shore of Baltic sea can assure you that the fate of Irish language has not been unique at all. Full support to Jonas. While I am not overly familiar with Crotian/Polish stories, I will tell you about Lithuania and her beautiful archaic language. In may respects - Irish language had a much better position for revival, than Lithuanian.

Many people have proposed that the key difference has been the time of exposure of "minority" language to the influence of dominant language, and 800 years have been mentiones as opposed to 100 years in Polish case. While, again, not diving into Polish history which is not my strongest point - I want to refute your conjecture.

Consider this: Irish language has been throughout the history one of the most cultivated and developed language in Europe. When monastery culture was thriving and third most ancient literature in Europe (after Greek and Roman) has been created, fileadh were singing praises to the kings, the Anglo-Saxons were literally still wielding stone-axes. It is only with arrival of Norman conquistadors the English have received some dose of higher culture. So again - Irish very EARLY in Europe have got a fullt developed, to extent STANDARDISED literary language which was well and alive into some 16 centure - 600 years of unbroken literary tradition! Don't underestimate this!

On the other hand - Lithuanians as the last pagan nation in Europe (no Christians well into 14 century!!!) had NO literary language, actually doubts persist if anything has been written in mother tongue at that time. The country from the time of its foundation has been surrounded by nations with long-established tradition of writing - Teutonic knights (writing in Latin) in the north, Polish kingdom (again Latin) in the west and Kievan Russia (with Old Slavonic language) in the south. So only natural all documents from that time were written either in Latin or in Old Slavonic. With the baptising of Lithuanians (14 century) - the Holy Sea assigned the whole province to Poland, so Polish priests came and were preaching in the whole Lithuania. So you can imagine what was the penchant - "good Catholic speaks Polish", "only pagans speak pagan language". So Church was ruthlessly persecuting anything what was related to indigenous culture, language and customs. So while our dukes in 13th-14th century were speaking Lithuanian, in 15 century they were already struggling. Come what may in 1381 a first Lithuanian-Polish union was cosummated with Lithuanian duke becoming Polish king (he was marrying the Polish queen). As a result - royal court moved to Poland, to Cracow. Since that time no Lithuanian duke/Polish king was a native speaker. Since 15th century the upper class (aristocracy, and big landowners) were progressively losing their mother tongue as any striving for royal mercy was naturally obliged to speak Polish. Even partitions of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 18th century between Austria, Russia and Prussia didn't change a lot - the Church was staunchily pro-Polish, the aristocracy didn't know any Lithuanian even if they wanted.

Concerning the simple folks - everyone educuted was becoming a Pole by default (as even well into 16th century there was no literary language, so all education was mediated through Polish). Of course Reformation-Contre-Reformation period was savioury as vying for influence the Roman Catholic Church was forced to print Bibles in native language - that's when the Church started speaking Lithuanian. But still - nominally Lithuanian-speaking Church had the same Poles preaching in the same Polish language although from Lithuanian bible.

Just not to bore you to death - fast forward into 19th century when Revival began. The main activists have been people who were not native speakers but "converts" - people who were raised with Polish but later in their adolescence learnt Lithuanian and have become ardent nationalists since that time. First newspapers were published ("The Dawn", "The Bell") in Lithuanian (although still no standard language existed) using modified Polish spelling which was as well suited as English spelling is suited for Manx. Then in 1917 we won our independence from Russia and war with Poland broke out. As Lithuanians used to be in perpetual union with Poles for 400 years before partitions, Poles dreamt of restoring the Commonwealth even if they had to tramp over independence of several nations under way. So they seized on the fact that our putative capital was Polish speaking (although being precise it was rather Jewish, as Jews constituted some 70-80% of population and city was dubbed Second Jerusalem, the Holy Tora scripts were stored in Vilnius). Anyway small Lithuania with 2.5 mln of population could not feasibly fight 25 mln strong Poland so they captured 1/3 of territory with Vilnius. That's how we lost our capital for the first time in 500 years of city's history. The remaining rump of country was 2/3 of its original size and while most non-Lithuanian speaking territories were occupied by Poland - the remains still had only 60% of Lithuanian speakers. I guess if England were to occupy 1/3 of Ireland (mainly the east and north) in 1920 - then you should have had similar proportions of native speakers and English speakers.

Here the differences began - because the intruders kept our capital there was not even a question of medium of education in 1920s - all secondary education was conducted through medium of Lithuanian. The provisional capital Kaunas - at that time had some 50/50 split of Lithuan/Polish speakers. So during interwar (WW1 and WW2) independence one generation changed. And guess what - even the regions where absolutely no Lithuanian was spoken have become at least breac-Liotuantacht (e.g. Kedainiai region). Of course on the other side of border - in Vilnius and surrounding all Lithuanian schools have been closed and only Polish teaching installed. Then came WWII and Stalin decided to expand borders of Sovietunion. The occupied Vilnius district has come handy to separate from Poland and to annex it to "peace-loving Soviet Lihuanian nation". According to Molotoff-Ribbentropp pact Vilnius was handed over to Soviet Union (Lithuanian got 1/3 of Vilnius disctrict, 2/3 have been appended to Belarus).

Part II

During Soviet time no policy of "re-nationalisation" could have been conducted as we all have been "brotherly nations". But no love for Poles was spared - quietly all Polish schools were made Russian schools (Polish and Russian are closely related Slavonic languages), so somebody who had Lithuanian grandparents could have Polish parents (who got education in Polish occupation time) while being Russian herself. All this amounted to total loss of national identity and confusion among rural population of Vilnius district. While asked what language they speak (which is some explosive mixture of Polish, Russian, Belarusian and some Lithuanian words also slip in) - they just utter - it is "simple talk". When asked about their national belonging - they say they are "local, indigenous". So - no Poles, no Russians, no Belarusians, just natives. Only now as we are independent again for 15 years some changes are occuring - some people who have only feeble knowledge of Lithuanian (although it has remarkedly improved in last 15 years) send their children to Lithuanian medium schools. Even children studying at Polish or Russian-medium schools have few problems speaking Lithuanians. But still in whole country we have 1/5 of non-Lithuanian speakers, while in our capital - Vilnius (600ths inhabitants) - split is 55%/45% (speakers/nonspeakers). The situation is tricky as you understand and of course there tensions especially from older people who are not so good at state language. They are resentful that Lithuanian speakers find jobs easier and generally have a more quality life.

So you can ask - how it was achieved. Firstly - State Language Act which made all official promulgations in Lithuanian language obligatory. On all levels of the state - down to municipalities all documents have to be kept in Lithuanian. If majority of inhabitants is non-Lithuanian as it is still the case in townships around Vilnius - public announcement and so on can be seconded in other language, but only supplementary to Lithuanian. If it is something in print - Lithuanian font has to be larger. Simple but effective, isn't it?
The same State Language Act is obligatory not only for public Sector but for private companies as well - so banks, Post, telecoms - everybody is sending information in state language. And so it goes. We have Language inspection with sweeping powers who can fine any firm in breach of State Language Act. Violence, coercion? Of course - but you can't count on voluntarity in such things! If firms calculate it is cheaper to comply than to pay hefty fines - they will send bills in Lithuanian. But if you try to coax them into being "nice" - you will meet ignorance at best.

At the past February Daltai weekend, we heard a very interesting speaker who addressed the subject of "what will it take to make Irish popular".

In short, he indicated that what Irish most needs is a popular public figure who is not afraid to speak Irish in public. His hallmark image for this was the Irish Olympic swimmer, Michelle Smith. After winning her first gold medal, she ignored the mainstream media and sought out the TG4 correspondent. Her first interview was done "as gaeilge" and intended for an Irish speaking audience. What we need is more of that behavior on the part of popular figures who speak Irish.

Colin Farrel introduced U2 at some awards show by saying "
agus anois....U2" Of course, dropping a cupla focail here and there isn't going to turn the tide but it won't hurt.

If the Language guru's in Ireland would target these public figures, especially those with an international audience, and instill in them a sense of pride in their native language, we might just get there. Irish has to be brought out of the gaeltacht and the classroom and be put in front of the world in order to survive.

Just my humble opinion.

Níl le déanamh ach í a labhairt!

when I was studying Lithuanian, the country was credited with a written language going back to the 1200s (1245, I think it was), and at one time, in particular during the rules of Algirdas 1345-77 and Vytautas 1392-1430, controlled all of Belarus, the Smolensk region and most of what is today the Ukraine. At the time, it was one of the largest states in Europe.

But yes, there was ultimately a union with Poland and then the whole Russo/Soviet mess.

There is a proposal for an advertising campaign with "beautiful people" who speak Irish.

When Kerry won the All Ireland last year, Dara Ó Cinneide made his acceptance speech in Irish only. I think the habit has caught on.

Dara Ó Cinneide surely reached the Irish speaking audience in Ireland and should be commended for it. But, I'm talking about reaching outside of Ireland. I would love to hear someone in my hometown say, "Did you see that Padraig Harrington, yesterday? What was that language he was speaking?" (I live in a very "golf focused" community)

Kids in Ireland need to see Irish as "cool" in a world sense. Michelle Smith speaking Irish to the world was amazing...who cares if less than 30 thousand actually understood her!! That's their problem!!

Seriously, I can only hope that her use of Irish allowed young Irish speakers to indentify with her more deeply...beyond the Flag, beyond the accent...I hope they saw her as an Irish speaking role model. If Irish golfers and Irish actors and Irish musicians...all of whom have a world audience, would take Michelle's lead, the Irish language and the revival would be the better for it.

Dúirt Fearn:

Níl le déanamh ach í a labhairt!

Áiméan!

How about reviving the language right here and now? Scríobhaigí cuid de na teachtaireachtaí seo i nGaeilge: a few words, a phrase, a sentence. Bad advice, nó dea-chomhairle? Tá nath sa Bhéarla: put your money where your mouth is.

(Message edited by dennis on September 09, 2005)

Clannad and Altan have been doing so for years.

As for the speeches: a quick google turned up this
http://www.premierview.ie/bartizan.htm

quote:

Some saw Seán Óg's All-Irish acceptance speech as an annoyance, or at best, an anachronism. An all-Irish speech in an All-Ireland series: who would have thought it? An all-Irish speech in a sport played under the auspices of an organisation whose first word is Gaelic: who would have thought it? I considered it a courageous thing, wholly emblematic of the man. If anyone can be said to sum up the game, it is he. The Cork crowd that stayed were treated to a breathless speech that was true to his team, to his traditions in the North Monastery, and to himself.

quote:

When even the famed "lucht tacaíocta na Ríochta" had trouble with the words of their captain last September, it seemed like the "caidhp an bháis" for the proud Gaelic tradition of the GAA to me. Recently, that 2004 All-Ireland SFC winning captain Dara O Cinnéide revealed that he was the victim of verbal abuse after he delivered his entire victory speech as gaeilge last September. His words are interesting in this context:

"There were a few people who cribbed about it which I put down to a lack of understanding of our culture.

"I’m not trying to impose Irish on people or stick it in anybody’s face but I’m just glad I got the chance to say what I did on one of the greatest days of my life."

I would be willing to bet Seán Óg would not be denied his hour for the same reason.

Seán Óg Ó hAilpín is Cork captain whose father is Irish, and mother Fijian; there are three brothers and all all fluent in English, Irish and Fijian.

"Ireland was colonised by England from 1600 on"
Incorrect. The first Anglo-invaders came in 1169. Plantations began thereafter - Drogheda for one, Dublin another.. Then the craic went on in the pale. Then there was the plantations of Laois/Offaly, Surrender and Regrant, The devistating Cromwellian Plantations and a few more bad-boy schemes thereafter.
"destroy all aspects of a distinct irish culture in the 1500s." This is also a bit late in relation to dates.. The whole anti-Gael thing was always there but it was intensified but to laws passed at parliments in Kilkenny and Drogheda.
Anyways lets leave history alone and yes im liking what im reading here.. Lads, Foinse Lch a 2 tá alt ann faoi Dara O'Cinnéide agus feachtas nua le réalta chun Gaeilge a chur chun cinn sa Ghaeltacht..
D'aimsios é ;

http://www.foinse.ie/leighSceal.asp?sId=2221

Cad a cheapann sibh faoin riail nua maidir le Gaeilge *nó easpa Gaeilge* agus An Garda Síochána?

Bíonn Gaeilge le feiceáil ar fud na h-áite agus an CLG - ar na léine.. Ar na fograí agus araile. Bhfuil a fhios ag éinne gur rud atá ina mBunreacht atá ann nó céard???

""destroy all aspects of a distinct irish culture in the 1500s." This is also a bit late in relation to dates."

I was specifically referring to the overwhelming desire by the newly protestant gov't (lizzie et al) to crush those considered "traitors" simply for their religion

31 counties have their Irish name on the jersey.

1 doesn't.

Dublin.

Ní fíor sin. Níl sé i nGaeilge ar na cinn a díoltar don phobal (rud a tharlaíonn i gcás contaetha eile freisin), ach "Áth Cliath" a bhíonn ar geansaithe na foirne.

http://www.hill16.ie/default.asp

(Message edited by aonghus on September 10, 2005)

(Message edited by aonghus on September 10, 2005)

Do luaigh mé 1600 toisc gur chuir cáth Cinn tSaile deireadh le huasailaicme a d'fheidhmigh tré ghaeilge. Roimhe sin, bhí seans ann go slogfaí an Bhéarla. Sean Ghall ab ea Gearóid Iarla, Piaras Féirtéar agus Seathrúin Ceitinn - ach bhí togha na gaeilge acu agus d'fhág siad scóth na litríochta le huacht againn.

Níor labhair uasailaicme na Breataine Béarla go dtí 1300, pé scéal é.

Leirgeas ró shimplí atá in "800 years of oppression".

I also note the marvellous mistakes on the cheap imitations - I've seen ;

"Atha Cliath"

"Baile Ath Cliath"

Agus bhí ceann amháin eile ann ach ní chumihim é.

I say fair play to the GAA - i bought the geansaí Thír Eoghain the other day - not a word of english on it. And it says 'Tír Eoghain - Contae Uí Néill.' Now it doesn't get much more Gaelic than that!! :)

Chomh maith the team manager has 'bainisteoir' on it.. Same for the rest of the board. The flags, hats and all that craic have Gaeilge on them.. Geallann sé sin mo chroí :0

Séan Óg Ó hAilpín today on All Ireland final day , our biggest sporting occasion of the year , delivered one of the great stirring orations as Gaeilge. Séan Óg's is a unique story .He is the first Fiji man to lift the McCarthy Cup!!!! At home they speak Irish in the living room and Fijian in the kitchen. Thats the way to get the point across about using Irish as our first Language cos Séan Óg is up there with Roy Keane,Padraig Harrington and Brian O'Driscoll as Irelands most famous sporting son!

As regards Welsh I had an almost religious conversion when I came upon a people so imbued with love for their language I had to learn it. On the whole peoples within countries who did not achieve independence went on to preserve their culture more. I think of the Welsh, Basques, Catalans and Galicians. I used the word on the whole because Breton and Scots Gaelic have not been revived.