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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (September-October) » Archive through September 06, 2005 » One or Any? ? ? ? ? « Previous Next »

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 772
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

First of all, let's look at these two different words in the English language. What's the difference between them?

A) I didn't see any dog.
B) I didn't see one dog.

The first sentence leaves no ambiguity -- no dog was sighted. Quantity of dogs sighted = 0.
The second sentence simply asserts that the quantity of dogs that were sighted is not equal to 1. It's entirely possible that seven dogs were sighted. Quantiy of dogs sighted ≠ 1.

Now let's try to translate these two sentences into Irish, and to retain their meanings and implications.

Well first of all, we need a word for "any". Here's our first hurdle, do we use "aon" or "ar bith"? It's common knowledge that the Irish for "one" is "aon", so I'd presume that you'd use "ar bith":

A) Ní fhaca mé madra ar bith.

This, I think, clearly states: Quantity of dogs sighted = 0.

Now I'll try the second one. The Irish for "one" is "aon", so my first guess would be:

B) Ní fhaca mé aon mhadra.

But can this be interpreted in Irish as meaning "any", thus impling Quantiy of dogs sighted ≠ 1, effectively leaving the door open for there having been a different quantity of dogs sighted, as in:

I didn't see one dog, but I did see seven!
(Imagine it spoken in a joking, sarcastic sort of way)

And then you've got the added factor of "one" commonly being translated into Irish as "amháin". If you look up "amháin" in the dictionary, you get "sole" or "exclusive".

I have one dog.
Tá madra amháin agam.

The above is a very likely translation into Irish of the English sentence which lies above it... but when do you use "amháin" and "aon" and "ar bith", and what exactly do they convey?!

To try clarify, I'm going to write a little conversation in Engish, and ask that a fluent Irish speaker translate it into Irish please.

John: Did you go the zoo?
Mary: Yeah.
John: Did you see any lions?
Mary: Yeah, saw three lions.
John: Did you see any gorillas?
Mary: Yeah, eight gorillas!
John: Any monkeys?
Mary: Yeah, only saw one though. They used to have three but now they've only got one... with they way things are going, they won't have any soon!
John: Was it a male or a female?
Mary: Male.
John: Well can they not manage to get one female to mate with it?
Mary: No, they can't get one... they can get five! They just haven't got the resources to look after any more monkeys.
John: I heard that a monkey escaped and ran into the cafeteria?
Mary: I was in the cafateria all afternoon and I didn't see any monkey!

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on September 01, 2005)

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Dalta
Unregistered guest
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Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

When would you ever need to say that you didn't see one dog, implying that you saw more?

But anyway, I would just say 'Ní fhaca mé madra amháin'. I didn't see one dog. 'Chonaic mé seacht mhadra'. And if I said that I would expect the fella I was talking to to call me a gobshite and then leave in disgust.

The first hundred centuries - Translate that.

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 177
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The indefinite use of "aon = any" is an innovation in Modern Irish. In Old Irish "óen" was simply a numeral, a sort of adjective that was always compounded with its noun, the way "sean" is today: "óenbó" = 1 cow. In Scottish Gaelic, "aon" is still just a numeral.

When "aon" began to take on the sense of "any" in Irish, however, "aon bhó" became ambiguous in some contexts. To disambiguate, people would say "aon bhó amháin" when they meant the numeral. They then discovered this could be shortened to "bó amháin" with no confusion. The full "aon bhó amháin" is now used mainly to emphasize that it's "ONE cow", at least that's how it seems to me.

Meanwhile, "aon = any" has become so distanced from the numerical sense that many people use it with plural nouns:

An bhfaca tú aon leoin? = Did you see any lions?

I'm not sure if the purists are pleased by that, but it's very common and sounds just fine to me. :-)

Finally, I think "aon X" and "X ar bith" are pretty much interchangeable.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 666
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 08:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>Meanwhile, "aon = any" has become so distanced from the >numerical sense that many people use it with plural >nouns:

>An bhfaca tú aon leoin? = Did you see any lions?

>I'm not sure if the purists are pleased by that, but >it's very common and sounds just fine to me. :-)

Sea, a’ chéad uair a chuala mé sin, is as béal mhúinteora, bean nach rabh Gaeilg rómhaith aici, agus ar tús chreid mé gur meancóg a bhí ann. Agus níos moille chonaic mé i leabharthaí maithe é. Char chuala mé a leithéid ariamh roimhe. I dTír Chonaill, ní dóigh liom go mbaintear feidhm as "aon" ar chor ar bith leis a’ chiall "any". Deirtear "... ar bith".
"An bhfaca tú leoin (ar chor ar bith)?/ An bhfaca tú leon ar bith?"



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