Tá ceist beag tapaidh agam ort a Aonghuis nó ar duine ar bith a bhfuil ag tógáil clainne trí Gaeilge.

When your kids were small or just starting to speak, did they answer questions with 'sea' and 'ni hea' at first instead of 'iosfaidh' or 'ní iosfaidh' for example or whatever the correct reply to the verb that was used in the question would have been?

If so, I assume you just repeated the proper answer until they worked it out, but I'm wondering at what age they start working it out.

Thanks!
Colleen

I think my children probably answered with "Ja" or "Nein"!

quote:

I assume you just repeated the proper answer until they worked it out

.

Not conciously. They are 9 and 10 now, so I cant really remember. I do know that by the time they were 3 or 4 they conciously chose which language to speak to me, and rarely mixed up syntaxes. But German was the dominant language, since they had almost no direct contact with other Irish speakers.

I don't know what would be typical in a child growing up in an Irish speaking environment.

I had read that children starting on two, three or four languages simultaneously from birth experience no lag in language development (ie - they pick up three or four just as fast as they would a single language) and rarely if ever mix the languages or fail to "code-switch"...in other words the languages remain separate, and the kids know when to use each one...

Go raibh maith agaibh beirt.

I'm sure that they learn the correct forms easily when parents respond with the right verb answer, and without any difficulty, but I was wondering though, would a small child just starting to speak in Irish ever just answer 'chuaigh' when asked a question that beagan with 'an ndeacaigh' right off the bat -- do they get the different yes and no forms for each verb, (particularly those six rough irregulars) correctly from the start or does it take a while for them to master that? I'd certainly say it would take longer to learn than no and yes, if only for the fact that there's only one syllable in both of these words and that they can be used for all verbs in English.

So Aongus, when yours started to answer your questions in Irish only at whatever age, do you remember if they got it right?

I often wonder how children learn to speak correctly.

One day my little brother who was 3 or 4 years old at the time was watching a little bird hopping around in the backyard. He was fascinated by the bird but when the bird suddenly took off, my little brother was so disappointed that he turned to my father and said. " Aw daddy, the little bird flyed away". to which my father replied, " no, son, the little bird flew away ". My little brother then asked. " well why did it flew away ?".

I would think children surrounded by people using a language consistantly probably begin conjugating with proficiency at about the same age.
I remember my son once, when he around two, replying to whether or not he wished to do something (I don't recall now just what it was. Go for his bath, maybe.) with, "I don't think I could wanna do that."
I also remember, when he about a year and a half, growing upset with his inability to find his favorite toy, his ranting in a string of unrecognizable giberish which went something like, 'i loo Y fo i an i loo y aaaa blah blah son-of-a-bitch-of-a blah blah icanny blah ee...'. ... Yep. It was the only distinguishable part of the whole phrase. LOL!!!

I've heard plenty of adults say the likes of:

He spinned the disk
He catched the ball
They flyed him off to America

I'm sure I myself probably made such mistakes as a child, though my parents probably corrected me. I even correct other adults now and again when they say such things.

In response to the question "An ndeachaigh tú?", you might hear the child reply:

Dheachaigh

And then the parent could say:

Chuaigh

If native speakers adults say "he catched" "they flyed", it may be because that's dialectal English. Long ago, it was a mistake to say "you are nice" to a friend or a child, you had to say "thou art nice"... Languages change.

So far, to answer "dheachaigh" to "an ndeachaigh tú" is a mistake in Irish, ’cause no native speaker would say it, and "(I) went" is "chuaigh", in answers and in any sentence.

quote:

If native speakers adults say "he catched" "they flyed", it may be because that's dialectal English. Long ago, it was a mistake to say "you are nice" to a friend or a child, you had to say "thou art nice"... Languages change.

"he catched" and "they flyed" are certainly not dialectal idiosyncrasis. No particular distinct population of people says these. Such phrases (and I try to say this objectively) usually come from the mouths of working class persons who have below average intelligence, not to mention a possible history of drug misuse; maybe their mind just takes "catch" and conjugates it according to a rule without prior checking in its "irregular" database... too much processing for them?

My sister is constantly conjugating verbs wrong, or making words up. It's rather hilarious. She's 18, so she no longer has the excuse of childhood.

Yesterday she picked up a plate to carry to the dinner table, and said "Ouch! The food is hottening the plate!"

O mo thaithí féin - staying with gaeilgeoirí sa Ghaeltacht the children used sea agus ní hea til about 10ish and then as they progressively learned at home agus scoil they changed to ní dheachaigh/ chuaigh..
Brathann sé ar an duine agus a lán rudaí eile..

Yeah, I've heard and done that for fun, just to sound funny. Kinda like puttin' on a false 'hillbilly' tone just for a laugh.

he catched" and "they flyed" are certainly not dialectal idiosyncrasis. No particular distinct population of people says these

Dear FNB,

That's not necessarily true. Although I can't point specifically to catched and flyed, you might be surprised at the standardized use of what others consider grammatical errors in certain locales. The often joked about Appalachia in the US has many isolated communities initially settled by the Scots-Irish in which such is the case. And I think we can call these idiosyncracies dialectic.

When someone says the sky's "feexin duh far up," and everybody else understands it looks like rain, I'd say we have a dialect going.

(Message edited by pádraig on August 19, 2005)

>Such phrases (and I try to say this objectively) >usually come from the mouths of working class persons >who have below average intelligence, not to mention a >possible history of drug misuse; maybe their mind just >takes "catch" and conjugates it according to a rule >without prior checking in its "irregular" database... >too much processing for them?

What you've written here is scandalous. Working class persons are not more stupid than upper class. If you have such prejudice on people, I wonder what you would say about Black people, Asians... Are you racist?

quote:

What you've written here is scandalous. Working class persons are not more stupid than upper class. If you have such prejudice on people, I wonder what you would say about Black people, Asians... Are you racist?

Which is why I stuck in "and I try to say this objectively". I have simply made observations which seem to prevail across a certain group of people whom I encounter regularly in my every day life. As for black people? Which black people? I hear there's a high proportion of criminals among black people in Los Angeles; or what about the Congo? I hear those people live there lives out just like us, they have a laugh, have children, grow old. The fact that many black people in Los Angeles are criminals has nothing to do with the colour of their skin, it's simply that that's the way that certain group of humans has evolved. If many blonde-haired people start committing crimes, is in on account of the colour of their hair? And as for Asians... well there's billions of them which stretch across many different cultures -- it'd be hard to generalise.

I wasn't suggesting that working class people have below average intelligence. Taking my statement:

quote:

Such phrases (and I try to say this objectively) usually come from the mouths of working class persons who have below average intelligence

I did not stick in a comma before "who" in the sentence I reproduce above. The absence of the comma means that:

a) I'm not defining a certain thing
but
b) that I'm particularising on a certain instance of a thing

The thing I was particularising on was "working class persons", and the instance of this thing was those who have below average intelligence. Please note that I didn't define working class persons as having below average intelligence. I was simply referring to the members of the "working class" who have "below average intelligence".

Furthermore, I think it's safe to say that you'll find a much higher proportion of persons with below average intelligence among the lower economic classes. Sure there's some stupid upper-class people, but percentage-wise, there's much less of them in their community compared to the working class.

All I know is that as a person, I encounter different people every day; sometimes I hear grammatical errors in people's speech, and I notice these errors straight away. When I hear these errors, the vast majority of the times, the person I'm conversing with is either a warehouse operative, a building-site labourer, a barman. I have yet to hear a lawyer or a doctor say "he flyed the plane".

And just to finish, I consider myself to be intelligent but I'll probably be going on the Dole soon... that would place me below working class.

Back to the topic at hand though, which is:

Native adult speakers of a language will produce such statements as:

I done the work.
I seen the bird.
I catched the ball.
I flyed to America.

We were discussing whether these were just plain errors (possibly on account of their diminished intelligence), or whether they were dialectal idiosyncrasies.

And before Caoimhín steps in with a heavy hand: I fully intend to carry on this conversation in a civilised manner and to stick the main topic... there may be one or two tangents along the way but I'll try keep them to a minimum.

My stomach be's hurtin' and hits a gettin' worser, my bowels been runnin' off all day and Ise a been a vomickin.

Dialectal? One could argue, "yes", in that it is commonly used by a certain segment of my patient population who happen to be Native American.

Societal? One could argue "yes" in that those of the same Native American heritage but from a higher socio-economic class do NOT speak this way.

Racist? Absolutely NOT. The race has NOTHING at all to do with this dialectal/societal nuance of speech. It is a learned pattern that is readily understood across societal boundaries but is exclusively used by a given socio-ethnic-economic community.

Children from this group may grow up using it, but when they go to school they learn that it is grammatically incorrect. Those who fail to grasp the concept of "correct" versus "accepted" will do poorly on exams, job interviews, etc. It's not racist, it's a statement of fact. The grammar is wrong and to use it marks you as less educated. Those children who understand the difference between "accepted" and "correct" will, without question, do better on standardized tests, interviews, etc.

This is all part of the learning process and assimilation into society. It has nothing at all to do with race, but everything to do with education.

Fear_na_mbróg,

What you wrote does not just show how so terribly full of yourself you are, but also proves you wrong in thinking so because it's just a string of clichés and your narrow-mindedness prevents you from seeing beyond.

1/ Only linguists know what is grammatically correct or incorrect.
2/ What is called "grammatically incorrect" here is in fact "not-standard":
catched and flyed are absolutely grammatically correct but are not standard.
3/ A standard is never based on the middle/lower class variants of the language: as a consequence, these classes hardly ever speak it.
4/ This has really nothing to do with intelligence (or substance abuse).
5/ "helped" has already been regularized. So could be "caught" and "flew" into "catched" and "flyed".

quote:

1/ Only linguists know what is grammatically correct or incorrect.

What about native and fluent speakers of the language?

quote:

2/ What is called "grammatically incorrect" here is in fact "not-standard":
catched and flyed are absolutely grammatically correct but are not standard.

Now we're heading into the realms of defining terms like "grammatically correct". If I was a teacher correcting a students work, and if they'd written "catched", I'd get a nice big red pen, cross it out and write "caught". Why? Because it wasn't "grammatically correct". Max, you tend to have alternate definitions to everyone else when it comes to topics like this.

quote:

3/ A standard is never based on the middle/lower class variants of the language: as a consequence, these classes hardly ever speak it.

Good point.

quote:

4/ This has really nothing to do with intelligence (or substance abuse).

So it must be purely coincidental that it's always stupid people who say "catched"? Homeless alcoholics and heroin junkies tend to say "catched" more than your average Joe also.

quote:

5/ "helped" has already been regularized. So could be "caught" and "flew" into "catched" and "flyed".

We're not speculating on the future. For all we know, the f-word could become a term of endearment in the coming years -- but it isn't right now.

>>What about native and fluent speakers of the language?

They know the language inconsciously. (see below).

>>Now we're heading into the realms of defining terms like "grammatically correct". If I was a teacher correcting a students work, and if they'd written "catched", I'd get a nice big red pen, cross it out and write "caught". Why? Because it wasn't "grammatically correct". Max, you tend to have alternate definitions to everyone else when it comes to topics like this

NO. 'Grammatical' belongs to the linguistic terminology. What happens in the English speaking world is exactly what happens in the French speaking world: STANDARDIZATION.
The universal tendency is to believe that only the standard variants are correct. This tendency is so strong that certain people (middle/lower class) who don't speak the standard do believe that they don't speak French (when it is the only language they speak). Indeed they don't speak standard French, but of course they speak French.
In school is taught the standard.
If I was a teacher correcting a students work, and if they'd written "catched", I'd get a nice big red pen, cross it out and write "caught". Why? Because is incorrect from the standard point of view. I would also explain to the entire class why it is grammatically correct and still inacceptable in a students work.
It's not my fault if people confuse grammatical and standard. (It's not their fault either).

>>So it must be purely coincidental that it's always stupid people who say "catched"? Homeless alcoholics and heroin junkies tend to say "catched" more than your average Joe also.

NO, it is not coincidental. But being "stupid people, Homeless alcoholics and heroin junkies" is not the REASON why the say catched. This is more than an oversimplified explanation.

>>We're not speculating on the future. For all we know, the f-word could become a term of endearment in the coming years -- but it isn't right now.

The point is: "helped" is regular from the strandard point of view. "catched" and "flyed" have already been regularized by certain people.

>Max, you tend to have alternate definitions to everyone >else when it comes to topics like this.

Well, I do agree with him, because we both are students of linguistics. If there were other linguists here, they would agree with us as well.

Yes, but applying the technical definition when there is one in common speech will confuse people who are not experts in your field.

I could ask you for the grammar of Irish in Backus Naur format, but I don't think that would help anyone!

grammatical == standardised in common speech.

I agree with the point Max is making, but I think he needs to understand that not everyone shares his defintions.

just for the poetic irony, here...

They know the language inconsciously.

"unconsciously" or "subconsciously"


If I was a teacher correcting a students work, and if they'd written "catched", I'd get a nice big red pen, cross it out and write "caught". Why? Because is incorrect from the standard point of view. I would also explain to the entire class why it is grammatically correct and still inacceptable in a students work.

"unacceptable"

Poor Max. Caught out by the way english takes things from Latin, but applies different rules than French, and not even consistently.

(incorrect, but unacceptable).

quote:

If I was a teacher correcting a students work....

If I were a teacher correcting a student's work....

There's another apostrophe missing at the end also, but my red pen just ran out of ink. :)

owch that must be smartin!!!

quote:

If I were a teacher correcting a student's work...

OK, you win on "student's", that was just an oversight on my part. As for "were" in the place of "was"... well this is as much accepted as "who" in the place of "whom". Come to think of it, I'm not even sure if it's a rule that you have to use "were" in the conditional mood?

One thing I noticed about my own speech today that differs form the Standard:
When I have a sentence like:

I should have closed the door.

If you replace "close" with a verb that has a different kind of verbal adjective to its past tense, then you should have:

I should have taken the book.
I should have gone to France.
I should have written it down.

Only lately, I've found that I'm saying all of these as:

I should've took the book.
I should've went to France.
I should've wrote it down.

I pronounce "should've" as "shuda".

I don't think I always did this, I've a feeling there may be a time when I would've said "I would have gone home", but lately I'm realising that I pretty much exclusively use the past tense form as opposed to the adjective... maybe it's a new little phenomenon in South Dublin... ?

>>Yes, but applying the technical definition when there is one in common speech will confuse people who are not experts in your field.

NO. It's not "common definition", it is common belief. The belief that nothing is legitimate (or correct) beyond standard.
If I were to teach only one thing from my linguistic field, I would be to tear down this belief.
Plus, I don't agree with the fact that there would be a technical vs common definition of the term. It's just that people don't know the real definition of the term (just like plenty of other terms).

I should add that this forum, being about Irish, could use a little bit of linguistic knowledge.

>>Poor Max. Caught out by the way english takes things from Latin, but applies different rules than French, and not even consistently

I don't feel particularly poor.

Except that, being a linguist, I deal with language; and since (almost) everybody speaks at least one language - and went to school to learn (sometimes wrong) grammar - plenty of people feel that they know as much and/or better than I do. (cf the debate about the Irish cases).
Again: people could use, here in particular, some linguistic knowledge.

>> I should add that this forum, being about Irish, could use a little bit of linguistic knowledge.

B'fhéidir go bhfuil an ceart agat, a Mhax. Ach tá taithí ag cuid againn ar theangeolaithe a bhfuil a lán le rá acu faoin teanga, ach nach bhfuil in ann cúpla abairt a scríobh inti gan mheancóg. Bhíodh daoine mar sin -- N. Stenson, A. Green, A. Carnie -- le cloisteáil ar Gaelic-L tráth den saol. Is deacair muinín a bheith againn as duine nach bhfuil ach breaceolas aige ar an teanga dáiríre, bíodh agus go bhfuil díntíuir aige ó ollscoil mór-le-rá, agus alt nó dhó i gcló aige. They can talk the talk, but they can't walk the walk.

Maidir liom féin, tá mé ’déanamh go bhfuil mé ábalta níos mó ná cupla abairt a scríobh gan mheancóg :-)

pas de commentaire.

An ag caitheamh clocha atá tú Dennis? Those are the kind of comments that make people stick to writing in English. What do we need to keep people positive about Irish, and not so eager to stone everyone for their errors -- hypnotherapy? If you can speak and write perfectly in Irish brillo for you! If you are imperfect but trying, whether you are a linguist or a native speaker, mortal being or divine, brillo for you as well! If I wasn't too thickheaded to understand the work of some of the dedicated and hard-working linguists you mention by name above, I'd be looking for the answers to my questions in their books instead of here. Irish needs linguists and Irish needs speakers, full stop -- fluent or not, perfect or imperfect. Everyone has their strengths but focusing on their weaknesses spirals Irish down to its knees. I'm so surprised at such a comment from you. Ní féidir le gach duine a bheith chomh cliste agus atá tusa, a chara.


Colleen

Quote: Except that, being a linguist, I deal with language; and since (almost) everybody speaks at least one language - and went to school to learn (sometimes wrong) grammar - plenty of people feel that they know as much and/or better than I do.

Sounds like a case of "I'm a linguist, you're not...therefore, I must be right and you must be wrong."

As far as the layperson's common understanding of "correct grammar" is concerned, there is the "standard" and that is "The Standard". It is the ideal, it is the benchmark by which other forms or patterns are judged.

Is the Spanish spoken in Argentina different from that spoken in Spain...absolutely. Do they both use the 2nd person plural "Vos"...absolutely. Do they use it in the same way...absolutely not. In Argentina "Vos" is used interchangeably with "Tu". It is not used as a 2nd person plural as it is in Spain. Who is correct, by the layman's understanding of "grammatically correct"? The Spaniards. Is the Argentinian way accepted in Argentina..you better believe it. But...is it taught as "correct" in Argentinian schools? I rather doubt it.

Correct is correct and accepted is accepted. Common use and common understanding does not, by default, equal grammatically correct. I'm not a linguist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn!!! (Sorry...those on this side of the pond will get that last bit!)

James,

If I were to say something that is common belief but still erroneous, I would be glad to be corrected by someone who knows better because this point would belong to his field of knowledge.

The problem is that the educated people almost always think they know better when it comes to language.
But it took me years to get rid of (maybe?) all the clichés about language.
(And as far as I can judge, I'm the best linguist here, so, yes, when it comes to my field of knowledge, I know better.)

No arguement there. You probably are the "best linguist" on this site. In fact, that might be the source of some of the friction associated with your comments.

You are approaching questions as an academic....from an academician (not sure about that spelling)...in other words, you are looking at this from a scholarly, almost clinical, viewpoint. We non-linguists are looking at it from a practical use perspective. We are using the layman's understanding and accepted use of "grammar" and "grammatically correct."

As a parallel example...when I talk to my patients, I often times have to accept that they think a "fractured bone" and a "broken bone" are two different things. In fact, they are not. But, to many of my patients a fracture is much worse than a break! Probably a better example is when I talk to them about a heart attack. There are many different things that can go wrong with the heart, not all of which are fatal but, the layman's term for each of them is "heart attack." I'm interested in the nuances and I certainly don't classify each and every one of them as a heart attack. In fact, I almost never use that term because it is too vague.

You see "grammatically correct" in a broader sense because you understand the nuances involved. We, as laypersons see it as a very finite and definite thing. Our scope of understanding the nuances of social grammar is narrower than yours. Academically, you are probably right. From a functional standpoint, we are just as correct.

My point is:

Certain people feel (very) bad about the way they speak.
The major reason is because the upper class people (those who speak the standard) deem "incorrect (no adverb, period.)" their variants - the society in its entirety validating this judgement.
Upper class people believe (and generally in a bona fide way) that:
- they speak a debased version of a language
- they can't speak properly
- even that they are (much) more stupid than them.
The pressure is so strong that the lower class people do believe it too.

I think it's a terrible way of discriminating people.
What I say to the discriminated is that they shouldn't be ashamed of the "mistakes" they make because they are not "grammatically" incorrect.
What I say to those who discriminate is that in terms of "grammatical correctness" they should stop thinking that they are the ones who always must be correct and the others the ones who always must be incorrect.

I know I won't change society by myself, but I will never stop arguing this point with people who I think can understand it.

A Chailín,

>> An ag caitheamh clocha atá tú Dennis?

Gan dabht. Ach cén fáth ar scríobh tú an mhórchuid de do theachtaireacht i mBéarla?? Tá Gaeilge bhreá agat agus deir naonúr lianna as deichniúr gur sláintiúla an rud é do racht a ligean as Gaeilge ná as teanga ar bith eile. Déanaim i gcónaí é.

Max aontaím go huile is go hiomlán leat ;
"I think it's a terrible way of discriminating people."
How dare people here, and anywhere else for that matter look down their noses at unfortunate people such as those who are homeless. Who cares how they speak? It's their right to speak whichever way they want to speak.
Let he who has never made a mistake cast the first stone - - Everyone here has made mistakes and will do so in future its only human. As such no-one here has the right to stereotype in a discrimatory way. Whatsoever.
Ba cheart náire a bheith ar chuid des na daoine anseo.

"If you are imperfect but trying, whether you are a linguist or a native speaker, mortal being or divine, brillo for you as well!" Couldn't have put it better myself.. If someone is learning Gaeilge and they are constantly being put-down and corrected it's going to damage their confidence and next thing you know we have someone who holds a grudge to the langauge and refuses to speak it for fear of being wrong. That was the way many Christian Brothers taught the language and how many joe soaps in Eirinn today use their cúpla focal? Not nearly enough. It's time to cop on before its too late and grammar-obsessed beings kill our language.

Personally i think it's actually a bit scary how obsessed some people are with speaking perfectly and correcting other daltaí. God help anyone who corrects my grammar.

"EQUALITY IS A NOBLE IDEA BUT ITS NOT MUCH FUN"

The Biggest compliment you can give to your enemy is to speak their language - and speak it perfectly.
Is í labhairt a dteanga agus í foirfe an moladh is mó is féidir leat a thabhairt do namhaid.

Mar tá eagla ar mo chuid Gaeilge roimh do chlocha, Dennis anois. Mise duine de na daoine a luaigh tú 'nach bhfuil in ann cúpla abairt a scríobh inti gan mheancóg' mar fuair mé mo chuid Gaeilge le mo dhá cluasa an cuid is mó. An rud a bhí mé ag iarraidh a rá leat thuas ná go raibh ionadh orm freagra chomh searbh in éadán daoine a mbíonn dílis den teanga a fheiceáil uaitse toisc an méid oibre seo atá déanta agat féin ar son an teangan. Caithfidh go bhfuil do chuid scileanna teangan foirfe chun na clocha seo a chaitheamh ach fós foirfe, is é mo thuairim nach gcaithfear clocha mar seo a caitheamh anseo go poibli.
Colleen

"is é mo thuairim nach gcaithfear clocha mar seo a caitheamh anseo go poibli. "
Tá an ceart ar fad a'atsa ansin a Chailín!

A Dhomhnaill & a Chailín,

>> "If you are imperfect but trying, whether you are a linguist or a native speaker, mortal being or divine, brillo for you as well!"

Is léir gur chuir mo theachtaireacht olc oraibh. Ba cheart dom a bheith níos soiléire. Ní "ag caitheamh clocha" ar na daltaí anseo ná ar aon "civilian" a dhéanann a dhícheall Gaeilge a labhairt atá mé. Ach is special case iad na teangeolaithe, nuair a a thagann siad inár measc agus hata an teangeolaí orthu, ag ligean orthu gur féidir leo an teanga a aithint -- a scrúdú agus a mhíniú -- níos fearr ná duine a snámhann sa teanga chéanna! Is féidir le cuid acu é sin a dhéanamh, gan dabht, agus is luachmhar an rud é -- *má tá snámh acu sa teanga freisin* (ar nós Lughaidh s'againne, bail ó Dhia air!) Tá an iomarca know-it-all teangeolaithe ann, áfach, nach ndeachaidh thar a nglúin sa teanga riamh. Ach smaoiníonn siad gur féidir leo cur síos scientific a chur uirthi, toisc go bhfuil cáilíochtaí speisialta acu. Agus déanann siad botúin áiféiseacha ansin. Sin an méid.

Fós caithfidh mé a rá nach bhfuil siad ina 'superior race'
Classing people, Gaeilgeoirí sa chás seo does nothing for anyone, apart from making more know-it-all's.
Táimse ag déanamh mo chéim ghnó trí Ghaeilge agus táim ag stáidéar na teanga álainn í féin. Ach ní Know-it-all mé agus ní bhím ag tabhairt drochmheas(I couldnt be bothered to get the t.g.) do dhaoine agus iad ag scríobh Gaeilge le botúin.

Maith thú, a Domhnaill. You walk the walk, maidir leis an teanga. Tá tú ag baint úsáide as an teanga sa domhan mór. Ní théann tusa thart, go bhfios dom, ag rá linn cad is Gaeilge nádúrtha ann. Ealaín na dteangeolaithe í sin. Cuireann siad i gcéill gur saineolaithe iad. Tá go maith. Más saineolaí atá ann, tá iallach air a bheith ceart agus é ag cur síos ar an rud atá faoi chaibidil aige go proifisiúnta -- an Ghaeilge sa chás seo. Ach mura bfhuil sé in ann nádúrtha a aithint thar mhínádúrtha ina chuid Gaeilge féin -- nó níos measa fós, mura bhfuil sé in ann teachtaireacht i nGaeilge a thuiscint ar chor ar bith, cén fáth an mbeadh meas agam air mar theangeolaí? Sea, tá cloch sa mhuinchille agam do theangeolaithe! ;-)

Dála an scéil, an rud is fearr faoin díospóireacht seo ná go bhfuilimid uilig ag caint le chéile i nGaeilge anois! :-) Slánú na Gaeilge í a úsáid.

quote:

Personally i think it's actually a bit scary how obsessed some people are with speaking perfectly and correcting other daltaí.

They're not nitpicking, they're correcting bare-faced stupid mistakes, like in English "I didn't went to Spain".

quote:

God help anyone who corrects my grammar.

They'd have to take time off work to prepare their plan.

quote:

"EQUALITY IS A NOBLE IDEA BUT ITS NOT MUCH FUN"

Which just goes to show: We've put a man on the moon, but we still get idiots coming out with this kind of tripe.

quote:

The Biggest compliment you can give to your enemy is to speak their language - and speak it perfectly.
Is í labhairt a dteanga agus í foirfe an moladh is mó is féidir leat a thabhairt do namhaid.

You could just as easily reverse that sentiment:

The greatest defiance you can give to your enemy is to speak their language perfectly.

And why? Because it doesn't actually make a difference what language anyone speaks, as long as they understand each other. You could say that by rejecting your enemy's language, that you're being defiant; but you could just as easily say that by mastering you enemy's language, you're being defiant.

quote:

ní bhím ag tabhairt drochmheas(I couldnt be bothered to get the t.g.)

Then come to terms with your bad grammar. I could run around saying "I swimmed", "I spinned", "I catched", "I hitted"... people will understand me, but very few will compliment my eloquent speech.

Yes, as humans we will make mistakes. But if we don't work toward the irradication of mistakes... well we wouldn't have put a man on the moon.

"ag tabhairt drochmheasa" atá uait.

I agree that encouraging people to use whatever Gaeilge they have it essential. I also agree that Gaeilge has suffered near death from the blunt force of grammar thugs. I also agree that looking down one's nose at someone because their grammar, english or otherwise, is not perfect is snobbery to the highest degree.

However.....

While I respectt Max and Lughaidh as Linguists and as Gaeilgeoirí, I find fault with Max's logic. Just because a certain segment or subsegment of a language speaking population uses a given pattern, syntax etc, does not give "correctness" to that alternate pattern, syntax etc. To legitimize it, overlook it or in any way appease it in an academic setting, in my opinion, is disingenuous. Mar sampla:

Pi is 3.14

2 Hydrogens plus 1 Oxygen yeilds H2O. It doesn't yeild H2O2.

Fish have gills, Mammals have lungs.

The normal word order in Irish is Verb, Subject, Object

These are rules and accepted laws of Math, Chemistry, Biology and Irish. Each has it's exception; Pi can be extrapolated beyond the 3 digits, in the right setting 2 Hydrogens plus 1 Oxygen actually CAN give you Hydrogen Peroxide and some fish do actually have lungs...but, these are exceptions.

Most of the time 3.14 will do, Most of the time 2H + 1O yeilds Water etc. Unless using 3.14 in an equation will yeild a result that has signficant difference on the outcome, unless the circumstances are such that you wind up putting your lungfish in Hydrogen Peroxide rather than Water....in other words, if there's no signficant reason, why correct someone? Let it go, no harm, no foul.

The same with Irish...if, in the course of general conversation a The Object is placed before the Verb a gentle correction, if any correction at all, should be offered. But, if this same error of grammar is made in a academic pursuit, ie: preparing for leaving cert (I think that's the term used) then forgiving a regionally, socially or ethnically accepted variance is absolutely disingenuous and, in my opinion, academically unethical.

As in my example give earlier in this thread:

If, in my role as a health care provider, I hear "I be's hurtin and it be's gettin' worser" (which I do hear every day), I'm not going to correct that person. I know what they mean and making that correction would just be obnoxious.

If, however, in my role as an educator one of my students uses that terminology (Mrs. Jones is a 34 y/o female with abdominal pain that be's gettin' worser...)well then...I am morally and ethically obligated as an educator to correct that student.

I certainly hope that I am not the only one who can separate these two situations. Although, sometimes it seems like I am.

One last item: I find it ironic that Max is proposing such leniency when, in my recollection, it was his rigid adherence to IPA and some rather heavy handed critiques that led to some of our more heated exchanges. I welcome the more relaxed approach but would not want him (or anyone else for that matter) to let my poor Irish pass without a gentle correction. If my Irish is wrong, Max...correct it. Don't let me go with a pass...give me a gentle nudge in the right direction. Your Irish is far superior to mine and I am depending on you (and countless others) to keep me on track. Just be gentle with my grammatically fragile mind.

Why are so many people here using English words in their Irish text?

civilian = sibhialtach
special case = cás speisialta
superior race = cine uachtarach

As for "know-it-all", that would be more of a colloquial term... maybe Lugaidh or Aonghust could help out on that one?

(Not that's it's pertinent, but Hydrogen Peroxide is actually H₂O₂; there's an extra oxygen!)

This is actually a good example where I could have just neglected to correct some-one and moved on without further complaint, but then again, I did not aim to insult in doing so, and no harm has been done. And on the other hand, if the person takes offence to such a correction (like our ever-mature Domhnall), then don't pay them any attention.

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on August 24, 2005)

>> Why are so many people here using English words in their Irish text?

Cén fáth ar chuir tú an cheist seo i mBéarla, a Fhir?

Mo fhreagra: níl a fhios agam! Tá an focal "sibhialtach" agam, ar ndóigh. Is féidir gur le béim a chur ar an bhfocal sin a scríobh mé i mBéarla é, agus na cinn eile. Uaireanta bainim úsáid as focail Fhraincise i mo chuid Béarla chomh maith. Stylistic variation? ;-)

Ceist eile: conas is féidir liom téacs as teachtaireacht eile a chur i mbosca beag i gcló glas le tagairt a dhéanamh dó?

FnamB:

I am aware that Hydrogen Peroxide has an extra oxygen. That was my whole point....2 parts Hyrdogen and 1 part Oxygen usually givew you water but, under the right circumstances (heat and pressure and a catalyst) it yeilds H2O2....hydrogen peroxide.

Tá abaltacht níos fearr agam mo smaointí a chur in iúl trí úsáid mo choda Béarla -- sin an fáth go n-úsáidim í in ionad mo choda Gaeilge uaireanta. Dá mb'fhéidir liom mo smaointí a chur in iúl trí úsáid mo choda Gaeilge chomh geal agus is féidir liom trí úsáid mo choda Béarla, ansin... bhfuel... bhainfinn úsáid asti gach uair!

Chun bosca téics a fháil:

Scríobh '\', ansin scríobh "quote", ansin scríobh {, ansin scríobh an téacs, ansin scríobh }.

quote:

Mar seo!

quote:

God help anyone who corrects my grammar.

"EQUALITY IS A NOBLE IDEA BUT ITS NOT MUCH FUN"

Correction: "EQUALITY IS A NOBLE IDEA BUT IT'S NOT MUCH FUN"

A Dhonmhall, since I can use all the help I can get, especially from the Almighty, I thought I would take you up on your offer to correct your grammer. :)

All kidding aside, I find this thread to be at times both hilarious and informative. It's great to see such input from the various members. Folks like Donmhall, Fear_na mBróg, Max, Lughaidh, and Aonghus make this website so interesting, even if youse (you) don't agree with each other all the time.

And James - it's great to see you've permanently broken radio silence!

Dáithí

A Dhomhnall,

Looks like I misspelled your name above - sorry about that.

Dáithí

quote:

I am aware that Hydrogen Peroxide has an extra oxygen. That was my whole point....2 parts Hyrdogen and 1 part Oxygen usually givew you water but, under the right circumstances (heat and pressure and a catalyst) it yeilds H2O2....hydrogen peroxide.

Depends if we're talking about Oxygen atoms or if we're talking about Oxygen molecules. I'd deem the latter to be O₂. Ah... technicalities, where'd we be without them?!

And yes I do realise how off topic my post is :)

quote:

A Dhomhnall,

Looks like I misspelled your name above - sorry about that.

Dáithí

You just did it again, haha. When you're addressing someone, you use the vocative case:

Seán = A Sheáin
Tomás = A Thomáis
Domhnall = A Dhomhnaill

Just as a side note, the vast majority of little errors like misplaced apostraphes on this forum are simply typos. I'm fully aware of when and when not to use an apostraphe, but if I don't read back over my text, then I seem to occasionaly just throw them in there.

>>I certainly hope that I am not the only one who can separate these two situations. Although, sometimes it seems like I am.

James, I'm not sure you have read me thoroughly (so I'll write it again, hopefully more clearly):

It's (for me) essential do distinguish between language from the linguistic point of view, and language from the social point of view.
As a consequence, instead of telling people that they speak bad grammar or can't speak properly and thus belittling them, they should be taught that their is nothing linguistically incorrect in saying "hitted", but - in order not to be roughly judged by others - should say "hit" because it is standard.
Of course it is important to correct people (from the standard point of view). Standard is essential in society: there are a lot of cases where people are expected to use standard only; not to speak the standard can prevent you from getting certain jobs...
It is ignorance (and not only from the linguistic point of view) that makes certain people think that those who don't speak the standard are less intelligent. And it is the same ignorance that makes the others believe it.

Once again, I know I can't change society my myself, but at least, I can explain to those who are willing to listen.


As for IPA:
I don't recall ever saying that it was the best way of EXPLAINING the sounds when someone is asking for pronunciation advice (it depends the person's knowledge). I said it was the best way of WRITING DOWN the sounds.

Perhaps we've been in agreement all along and I am just now realizing it!

Dear Fear_na_mbróg,

Thanks for the correction on Domhnall's name when used in the vocative. I did learn that the final vowel is "slenderized(?)" for a man's name in the vocative, but I failed to remember it when trying to spell his name correctly.

And I agree with you on the apostrophes, etc, etc. I was just trying to have some fun and get some free help from the Almighty at the same time. :)

Notice I didn't even try to put your name in the vocative, since I don't have a clue how it would be done.

Le meas,

Dáithí

quote:

Notice I didn't even try to put your name in the vocative, since I don't have a clue how it would be done.

Nor I!

Firstly, people keep referring to me as "Fear_na_mbróg", with underscores. I originally wrote my names as:

Fear na mBróg

but the website database yokie mangled it into:

Fear_na_mbróg

Argh!

Anyway, the jury's still out on whether the vocative is:

A Fhear na mBróg

or:

A Fhir na mBróg

The ambiguity arises from:

A) The genitive case of "fear" is "fir"
B) But the genitive case of "fear na bróg" is "fhear na mbróg", because of the "suspended genitive" rule.

So basically, the question to be answered is: Do you use the "suspended genitive" rule with the vocative case aswell? If so, then it's: A Fhear na mBróg

If not, then it's:

A Fhir na mBróg

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on August 24, 2005)

We’ve already talked about that: why are you talking about genitive? In "A Fhir na mBróg", the only word that is in the genitive case is Bróg. "A Fhir" is in the vocative case.

Lol GRMA A Dhaithí!

Lol right back at ya "A Dhonmhall, since I can use all the help I can get, especially from the Almighty, I thought I would take you up on your offer to correct your grammer. :) "
The word is spelled grammar in English. hehehe..
A Fhir na mbróg, you're entitled to your opinion and you seem to be a little arrogant so i'm not going to argue.
"it doesn't actually make a difference what language anyone speaks, as long as they understand each other."
In that case most people in Eirinn speak English so what's the point in trying to save and promote Gaeilge.

Tá an comhrá seo ag éirí pas beag OTT domsa..

Fear na mbrog - I prefer to refer to you as 'the most irritating teenager on god's green earth.'

I hope you'll be ashamed of some of your statements on this board when you grow up.

quote:

The word is spelled grammar in English

Awesome comeback my man á Domhnaill! LOL!!!

A Fhear na mBróg nó A Fhir na mBróg - thanks for the clarification and notification that the vocative for your name is ambigous. It's crazy to think the trouble I went to adding the underscores to your name and now finding out how worthless they are. :) BTW, your postings are some of the most interesting, indepth and enjoyable to read, even if you're still a teenager. :)

A Lughaidh - I appreciate your input, as always, but I think it never hurts to repeat something, as Fear na mBrog has done, because it at least gives us the current state of affairs. Let's keep stirring the pot! But, if I may ask, could you clarify which of the possible vocatives posited by Fear na Brog is the one that you think is correct?

Dáithí

I think what Lughaidh wrote is pretty clear:

The whole affair has nothing to do with genitive or suspended genitive.
"fear" in the vocative is "a fhir", so "fear na mbróg" in the vocative is "a fhir na mbróg".

The confusion between genitive and vocative is due to the fact that the words have often the same form in both cases.

(or is it only that people with "below average intelligence" don't understand ther difference?)

Term: fear
Genitive case: fir
Vocative case: a fhir

Term: Fear na mBróg
Genitive case: Fhear na mBróg

Note how "fear na mbróg" doesn't become "fir na mbróg" in the genitive, reason being that "fear" is followed by a definite noun, ie. "na mbróg". A little rule called the "suspended genitive" comes into play whereby "fear" remains as it is.

Thus far, I don't think anyone's come across a grammar book which specifies whether or not the same thing happens with the vocative. If I were to guess, I'd say that it does, just for sake of continuity, but then again we're dealing with Irish, which has many twists and turns!

Gabh mo leithscéal, a Mhax, ach níl a lán eolais agat ar an teanga fós.

quote:

The whole affair has nothing to do with genitive or suspended genitive.
"fear" in the vocative is "a fhir", so "fear na mbróg" in the vocative is "a fhir na mbróg".

Seo agat sliocht as "Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí" (§ 160):

"Ní infhilltear an gairmeach uatha, uaireanta, má rialaíonn sé ginideach cinnte: 'a Cheann an Teaghlaigh Bheannaithe' (Naomh Iósaf).

Ní bhíonn aon infhilleadh ann ach oiread i leaganacha mar: 'a Naomh Pádraig; a Naomh Ciarán; a Rí Séamas'."

Agus an méid seo as §130:

"Ní gnách, áfach, infhilleadh sa ghairmeach uatha (a) ar chnuasainm: 'a phobal'; (b) má tá brí mheafarach nó brí ceana i gceist: 'a cheann cipín; a rún; a stór'; (c) má tá ginideach cinnte faoi réir aige: 'a mhac Iósaif; a scáthán an chirt'. Ach 'a Mhic Dé'."

Tá a lán le foghlaim agat fós, a mhic-ó, an Ghaeilge i measc rudaí eile. Idir an dá linn, ba cheart duit gan a bheith chomh fial flaithiúil le do chuid barúlacha.

Agus ar eagla go ndéarfar nach mbaineann GGnamBC le Gaeilge an lae inniu (rud nach fíor), seo beagán eile duit faoi Ghaeilge Chonnacht as _Stair na Gaeilge_ (lch. 567):

"Ní gnách infhilleadh an ghairmigh nuair a thagann aidiacht nó ainmfhocal i gcáil aidiachta i ndiaidh an ainmfhocail, m. sh. 'a bhéal mór'."

Tá súil agam go dtabharfaidh Lughaidh aisriúchán den tcht seo agus den cheann roimhe duit (tu peux demander la traduction à Lughaidh)... agus go gcuirfidh sé ina luí ort, más féidir, nach ag cur le meas na dteangeolaithe i measc na nGael atá tú.

(Message edited by dennis on August 25, 2005)

quote:

Seo agat sliocht as "Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí" (§ 160):

"Ní infhilltear an gairmeach uatha, uaireanta, má rialaíonn sé ginideach cinnte: 'a Cheann an Teaghlaigh Bheannaithe' (Naomh Iósaf).

Ní bhíonn aon infhilleadh ann ach oiread i leaganacha mar: 'a Naomh Pádraig; a Naomh Ciarán; a Rí Séamas'."

Agus an méid seo as §130:

"Ní gnách, áfach, infhilleadh sa ghairmeach uatha (a) ar chnuasainm: 'a phobal'; (b) má tá brí mheafarach nó brí ceana i gceist: 'a cheann cipín; a rún; a stór'; (c) má tá ginideach cinnte faoi réir aige: 'a mhac Iósaif; a scáthán an chirt'. Ach 'a Mhic Dé'."

I'll translate that to English for those of you who have difficulty reading it:

Here's an extract from "Christian Brothers' Gaeilge Grammar" (§ 160):

"With the vocative singular, the end of the word isn't changed, at times, if it's followed by a definite genitive: 'a Cheann an Teaghlaigh Bheannaithe' (Naomh Iósaf).

There's no change to the end of the word either in such cases as: 'a Naomh Pádraig; a Naomh Ciarán; a Rí Séamas'."

And this from §130:

"It's not usual, however, to change the end of the word in the vocative singular (a) with a collective noun: 'a phobal'; (b) if there's a metaphorical or contents meaning: 'a cheann cipín; a rún; a stór'; (c) if it's followed by a definite genitive: 'a mhac Iósaif; a scáthán an chirt'. Ach 'a Mhic Dé'."

Not sure if I translated the bit in red properly.

As for "a Mhic Dé", there's no reason given as to why it's "mhic" instead of "mac" -- but if I were to guess, I'd say it's because of the special treatment that "Dia" gets in Irish. If it followed all the rules, it'd be:

A Mhac Dhé

Anyway... the vocative case of "Fear na mBróg" is now well and trully:

A Fhear na mBróg

Thanks Dennis for the clarification!

quote:

if there's a metaphorical or contents meaning

"brí ceana" = affectionate meaning; ceana < cion

>Thus far, I don't think anyone's come across a grammar >book which specifies whether or not the same thing >happens with the vocative. If I were to guess, I'd say >that it does,

There is somethin called suspended genitive when two nouns should be in the genitive, but only the second actually is. Here, we're talking about vocative. When you say "A Fhir na mBróg", bróg is in the genitive so why would you suspend vocative?

>Gabh mo leithscéal, a Mhax, ach níl a lán eolais agat >ar an teanga fós.

Gabh mo leithscéal a Dhonncha, ach má tá seo fíor, is dóigh liom go bhfuil níos mó eolais ag Max ar an teangeolaíocht ná atá agat féin.

>Seo agat sliocht as "Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre >Críostaí" (§ 160):

>"Ní infhilltear an gairmeach uatha, uaireanta, má >rialaíonn sé ginideach cinnte: 'a Cheann an Teaghlaigh >Bheannaithe' (Naomh Iósaf).

Chonaic tú an focal "uaireanta", gan amhras.

>"Ní gnách, áfach, infhilleadh sa ghairmeach uatha (a) >ar chnuasainm: 'a phobal'; (b) má tá brí mheafarach nó >brí ceana i gceist: 'a cheann cipín; a rún; a stór'; >(c) má tá ginideach cinnte faoi réir aige: 'a mhac >Iósaif; a scáthán an chirt'. Ach 'a Mhic Dé'."

"Ní gnách", atá scríofa. Agus tá ’s agat (nó ba chóir duit a fhios a bheith agat) go bhfuil duifear mór eadar an caighdeán atá ann agus a’ chaint. De réir an chaighdeáin, ní ceart "tchím" a ráidht ná "ráidht" go díreach ná dheath ar bith mar sin. Tá Gaeilg ann taobh amuigh don chaighdeán.

>Tá a lán le foghlaim agat fós, a mhic-ó,

agus tá againne uilig, a mhic ó :-)

>Agus ar eagla go ndéarfar nach mbaineann GGnamBC le >Gaeilge an lae inniu (rud nach fíor), >seo beagán eile >duit faoi Ghaeilge Chonnacht as _Stair na Gaeilge_ >(lch. 567):

Tá Gaeilg ann taobh amuigh do Chonnachta.

>"Ní gnách infhilleadh an ghairmigh nuair a thagann >aidiacht nó ainmfhocal i gcáil aidiachta i ndiaidh an >ainmfhocail, m. sh. 'a bhéal mór'."

Agus uair amháin eile: "ní gnách...". Ní hionann sin agus "ní... ariamh".

>Tá súil agam go dtabharfaidh Lughaidh aisriúchán den >tcht seo agus den cheann roimhe duit (tu peux demander >la traduction à Lughaidh)... >agus go gcuirfidh sé ina >luí ort, más féidir, nach ag cur le meas na >dteangeolaithe i measc na nGael atá tú.

Is maith a thuigeas Max Gaeilg, dar liom. Agus tá mé ’déanamh go mbeidh sé ábalta Gaeilg bhinn bhlasta a scríobh roimhe i bhfad, agus go bhfoghlaimeochaidh sé sin níos gaiste ná a rinn muidinne uilig anseo.

(Message edited by Max on August 25, 2005)

J.D.,

Spongebob Squarepants is the image I always get when I see Fear-na-mBróg's posts. He seems to mean well in EXACTLY the same obliviously annoying sort of way. But things would be just a little bit too quiet if he weren't around, maybe!

: )

I stand corrected on this one.

>>Gabh mo leithscéal, a Mhax, ach níl a lán eolais agat ar an teanga fós.

I have always been very conscious of the fact. That is the very reason why it didn't cross my mind that Lughaidh's word could be gainsaid. It is frustrating at times, but I keep learning; and the more I grow, the more I know...

>>Tá a lán le foghlaim agat fós, a mhic-ó, an Ghaeilge i measc rudaí eile.

Those who patronize the arrogant, in doing so, become as arrogant. It's a vicious circle.

>>agus go gcuirfidh sé ina luí ort, más féidir, nach ag cur le meas na dteangeolaithe i measc na nGael atá tú.

I am thrown stones whenever I contradict what is common knowledge (aka: "taken-for-granted traditional grammar"), I'm quite used to it...

>>Tá súil agam go dtabharfaidh Lughaidh aisriúchán den tcht seo agus den cheann roimhe duit (tu peux demander la traduction à Lughaidh)

Ce n'est pas ce qui est écrit en irlandais. Et à mon avis, Lughaidh à autre chose à faire que ça.

>>Is maith a thuigeas Max Gaeilg, dar liom. Agus tá mé ’déanamh go mbeidh sé ábalta Gaeilg bhinn bhlasta a scríobh roimhe i bhfad, agus go bhfoghlaimeochaidh sé sin níos gaiste ná a rinn muidinne uilig anseo.

Quel compliment! Merci. (Although the expression "binn blasta roimhe a bhfad" is far from an easy challenge.)

>>Idir an dá linn, ba cheart duit gan a bheith chomh fial flaithiúil le do chuid barúlacha.

I take your word.

quote:

Those who patronize the arrogant, in doing so, become as arrogant. It's a vicious circle.

Is fíor duit. An seanfhocal Francach é sin, nó rud éigin a dúirt Montaigne?

quote:

Ce n'est pas ce qui est écrit en irlandais.

Ní maith liom an rud ceannann céanna a rá faoi dhó. Tá sé chomh leadránach. (NB: is béarlachas "chomh" a úsáid mar seo, gan comparáid a dhéanamh -- comh X le Y -- ach tá an teanga ag athrú.)

>>An seanfhocal Francach é sin, nó rud éigin a dúirt Montaigne?

Si c'est le cas, elle ne fait pas partie de ma bibliothèque de citations... C'est le sens commun qui m'a fait parler.

>>Ní maith liom an rud ceannann céanna a rá faoi dhó. Tá sé chomh leadránach.

D'autant plus que ce qui était écrit en français était bien plus doux à l'oreille: espérer que Lughaidh fera la traduction (sans doute pour mon bien, pauvre de moi qui a bien du mal[heur]), ça rend les sous-entendus beaucoup plus clairs, en effet.

That was a scurrilous remark about Spongebob Squarepants.

There's a forum out there somewhere for adults who watch children's cartoons.

Has anyone ever thought that Fear na mBrog does a fair amount of investigation in defending some of his positions? Has anyone (thinking more of the professional academics) considered that arguing one's position and defending it with cited sources is a staple of higher education?

Fear na mBrog might ruffle a few feathers but, all in all, the young man we know today is a far more helpful and enjoyable participant than he was just a few short years ago. All things are relative, mo chairde...all things are relative.

Le meas,

James

quote:

ce qui était écrit en français était bien plus doux à l'oreille

Nach mbíonn chuile rud níos binne i bhFraincis i gcónaí?

Agus cad é a dúirt an drámadóir Brendan Behan (le teann rómánsaíochta, gan dabht) faoin nGaeilge? "Irish is more direct than English, more bitter. It's a fine muscular thing, the most expressive language in Europe." Bíodh geall nach ndéarfadh teangeolaí rud mar sin! ;-)

(Message edited by dennis on August 26, 2005)

“Mit Gott rede ich Spanisch, mit Frauen Italienisch, Französisch mit Männern und Deutsch mit meinem Pferd.”

Cathal V na Gearmáine agus na Spáinne

---

Milis an teanga an Ghaedhealg,
Guth gan chabhair choigcríche,
Glór, géar-chaoin, glé, glinn, gasta
suairc, séimhidhe, sult-bhlasta.
Gide Eabhrais teanga is seanda,
gide laidean is léigheanta,
uatha uirthi níor frith linn
fuaim nó focal de chomhainn.


Seathrún Céitinn.

Squidward,

It lightens my heart to know there's other posters out there who feel the same way about FnB (FhnmB???) I hadn't thought of him as spongebob before, but I see it very clearly now that you have mentioned it. I always did hear him in my head as having that strange high voice which all characters in Irish-dubbed cartoons have.

I'm not suffering alone, and that means a lot to me.

James - I take your point, better he be doing what he does in the dusty halls of academia or this sober forum than be doing it out on the street.

And in fairness, he who must not be named incorrectly, well, after the two years I've been knocking on the door of this forum, he has grown on me, just a little.

quote:

I hadn't thought of him as spongebob before, but I see it very clearly now that you have mentioned it.

Fool. Am I the only one that realises the irony in patronisingly comparing a person to a children's cartoon character with whom you are very familiar?

quote:

I always did hear him in my head as having that strange high voice which all characters in Irish-dubbed cartoons have.

Again.

quote:

I'm not suffering alone, and that means a lot to me.

Glad to see you're living the first-world-life, worrying about the comments of an internet persona, rather than if you'll freeze during the night, or have food to eat tomorrow, or if you'll get any sort of analgesic for your final stages of AIDS. I dread to think if I actually went out to insult or slander you.

quote:

James - I take your point, better he be doing what he does in the dusty halls of academia or this sober forum than be doing it out on the street.

"out on the street": a cliché that gets done to death. Would it be much worse if I looked for interesting conversation out on the street? Or how about in a pub? Or in a barn? Is "street fighting" different to "pub fighting"? Looks like you've got a few issues in your head whereby you think my well-intentioned conversations here are harming people... ?

quote:

And in fairness, he who must not be named incorrectly, well, after the two years I've been knocking on the door of this forum, he has grown on me, just a little.

I've only ever just politely corrected stupid, silly mistakes. If your name was James and everyone kept calling you Jason, then would it not be pertinent to give them a gentle nudge? As for me growing on you... I gladly say the feeling isn't mutual.


I'm available around the clock for interesting or intellectual converstion if anyone would like to steer away from comparing me to children's cartoon characters. Maybe JD and the boys can set up their own forum to discuss me, so they won't have to "suffer alone". Pack of immature bitches if you ask me.

I was quite enjoying this forum until Fear na mBróg started using it to vent his personal attacks. FnB, you seem so intent on posing yourself as an intellectual, yet you keep falling back to personal insults. Certainly calling people "idiots" and a "pack of immature bitches" points to your own inability to conduct yourself with maturity.

Postings like these--full of venom for people who disagree with you, full of contempt for people whose minor mistakes you happen to spot--will kill this forum. It will certainly drive away novice speakers who are already insecure about their knowledge of Gaeilge. That goes for everyone on this site. Correction is a wonderful thing--but only if done gently, and only if the intent is to help the learner rather than bolster your own wavering ego. Tá mé ag scríobh seo as Béarla because I have the feeling that if I attempted to write the whole thing as Gaeilge, my message would be attacked for what would certainly be numerous mistakes, rather than evaluated for its message.

I don't at all have a problem with disagreement, and, Fear na mBróg, I have found some of your posts to be *quite* interesting and informative. But if you persist in treating people rudely, you will do nothing to encourage that your opinions be taken seriously. Please learn to temper your anger with objectivity.

As for SpongeBob, I love him and was a little hurt for his sake by the comparison (and before you chastise me for my childishness, I would like to let you know that I have a Master's degree and feel a bit sorry for anyone who hasn't actually *watched* SBSP--its irony and absurdity rivals that of The Simpsons).

In the preface of *Everyman*'s Alice's adventures in wonderland, there's a quotation by W. H. Auden :
"There are good books which are only for adults, because their comprehension presupposes adult experiences, but there are no good books which are only for children."

I guess we could apply it to cartoons.

(As for me, my favorite is Winnie-the-Pooh...
"Sometimes, when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it. ")

Sin dhá cheann deas, a Mhax.

Agus is fíor an méid a scríobh Olivia fosta.

A Olivia a chara,

Ar an droch uair caithfidh mé a adhmháil nach bhfuil mé ar aon intinn leat. Más saibhriú agus forbairt teanga atá de dhíth ag lucht foghlamtha na Gaeilge, caithfidh daoine cosúil le FnaB iad a cheartú nó déanfaidh siad na botúin chéanna arís agus arís eile. Chomh maith leis seo cuideoidh sé sin leo na botúin chéanna a sheachaint amach anseo agus mar sin de is mó na buntáistí ná na míbhuntáistí a bhaineann le daoine a cheartú.

Firstly, I'm not out to "market" or to "portray" myself as an intellectual, but I am out to engage in intellectual converstion here. I'm not out looking for compliments for my posts, though I have received a few, but I'd just be happy to know that people here are getting better at Irish from the little tips I post now and again.

As for correcting people's Irish grammatically... well I've reiterated on my "policy" several times on this forum, but people still seem to contest my intentions. Here's how it works: If I see something along the lines of

Dúirt sé go bhí áthas air

which would be sort of like saying in English:

He said that he didn't saw the man

Then I'll say to the person: The correct form is:

Dúirt sé go raibh áthas air

I don't mean to discourage people or in any way offend them by correcting their grammar... but if there's certain people out there who just don't want to be corrected then frankly, I think you're in the wrong place -- this site is primarily for learners; learners come here with the home of advancing their Irish. A key aid in this advancement is that people who are more proficient give them pointers.

The only people who set out to get me here seem to be the people who have personal issues. They tend to be the ones that aren't members and that probably lurk for considerable periods of time. For some reason they feel threatened by me because I remind them of someone in their life who comes across with the same sort of attitude when trying to explain things and to help people. It seems to be a crime nowadays to be pedantic and to actually put a decent bit of effort into your manuscripts; seems like the people who are less apt at it like to target it so that they themselves feel less inadequate. Well look, I'm going to continue to post screen-long explanations of grammatical points, and I'm going to continue to offer correction to those who make mistakes. You won't get an apology from me.

Well said FMB

quote:

You won't get an apology from me.

Is trua sin. Bhí maslaí gan gá i do thchtí. Ní gá bheith maslach, go hairithe más comhrá éirimiúil atá uait.

A Aineolaí, ní ar cheartú ann fhéin a bhí Olivia ag trácht ach ar cheartú le tarcaisne. Níl ait ar bith do sin anseo.

Fear, the corrections are good, but it's the joy you seem to take in finding the mistakes that is problematic in my point of view. The Irish teachers in Ireland who know that you have had books 1-12 of Irish lessons taught to you since you were children, may have felt the need to chew you out for a mistake that you made in your final years of Irish class. They feel you've been taught those lessons and you should know better, it might feel like a personal reflection on their abilities as a teacher that you've made these errors, who knows. But it seems to me that sometimes you're mirroring the way you were corrected in school here on this site.

Please remember that some of us, particularly those studying in the States and Canada or other countries are learning FOR FUN, on our own, without teachers and have not had the benefit of all your years of learning. Nevertheless some of us still manage to write messages that make sense here and can actually communicate in Irish, despite these errors. I happen to think that the communication is more important than if you remember the word is feminine or masculine or if you got the genitive case right. I think that when we all emphasize grammar and grammar and grammar the whole time on this site, we are telling people that that's all the langage is. Like somebody said above, the beauty in the language is missed if you concentrate on the fine details too much.

We, the North American Gaeilgeoirí, are not used to being punched in the stomach for our grammar errors, you see. What I'm saying is that the effect of some of your comments on some of us is similar to knocking down a baby who's only just started to walk, does that make any sense? Your corrections are often very well explained and you clearly put a lot of time and effort into them. No one is asking you to apologize for those, and I agree with you on that. It's the ones where you've added snide comments about the poster, saying they were vacuous or some other completely unfounded or unnecessary remark that hint at your need to show everyone you are better than they are. Those are the ones that draw all the fire and you really should go back to the archives and apologize for those. If you only have ríomh-aithne agat of some of those people, how could you possibly extrapolate from what might have been a botún cló or a hurried message that someone is stupid? I've read enough of your posts to take them with a grain of salt now, but new people joining in shouldn't have to go through that. It's not just you, though, it's everyone here. Everyone, yes, even linguists, should be allowed to make errors here without having their names posted for all posterity to read.

Ok, I'm leaving my soapbox now.
Colleen

"Más saibhriú agus forbairt teanga atá de dhíth ag lucht foghlamtha na Gaeilge, caithfidh daoine cosúil le FnaB iad a cheartú nó déanfaidh siad na botúin chéanna arís agus arís eile. Chomh maith leis seo cuideoidh sé sin leo na botúin chéanna a sheachaint amach anseo agus mar sin de is mó na buntáistí ná na míbhuntáistí a bhaineann le daoine a cheartú."

Corrections aren't the only way to help someone learn - by conversing with someone.. People reading the way the language is written and using the Gaeilge they have can only lead to improvements and perhaps are better than the stomach punches offered..

FnB, i believe you and get where you're coming from but maybe just correct people who would like to be corrected.. Others here, myself included don't like it and don't post here to be put-down..even if it is unintentional.

quote:

FnB, i believe you and get where you're coming from but maybe just correct people who would like to be corrected.. Others here, myself included don't like it and don't post here to be put-down..even if it is unintentional.

Well finally we're getting somewhere.

I really just don't understand why people feel put down when they're offered correction. The way I see it, the reason that people will write in Irish on this forum at all is because they like the language and would love to be fluent in it, both spoken and written. When I put myself in their shoes, I see myself being glad at being told what the correct way to say it is.

For instance, in Olivia's post above, she writes:

Tá mé ag scríobh seo as Béarla because...

Well that should be:

Tá mé á scríobh seo

If Olivia is bothered enough to learn Irish then I think she would be more than happy to know how to say and write it properly.

I'm more than willing to "negotiate" with both the learners and fluent speakers here about how we want to run this forum, just so long as we don't descend into ad hominem attacks.

And here comes my usually pedantry:

When there's a pronoun, like "mé, tú, é sin, iad", you switch from using "ag" to using "do".

He was hitting me.
Bhí sé do mo bhualadh.

From this, you would presume that "he was hitting him" would be:

Bhí sé dá bhualadh.

but for some reason, in this construction, "dá" becomes "á":

mé: Bhí sé do mo bhualadh.
tú: Bhí sé do do bhualadh.
sé: Bhí sé á bhualadh.
sí: Bhí sé á bualadh
muid: Bhí sé dár mbualadh.
sibh: Bhí sé do bhur mbualadh.
siad: Bhí sé á mbualadh.

é sin: Bhí sé á bhualadh sin.
í seo: Bhí sé á bualadh seo.

Éist a fhír na mbróg a chroí,

An bhfuil a fhios agat cé mhéad ama atá Olivia ag foghlaim na Gaeilge? Nuair a bhí tusa sé mbliaina d'aois agus tú ar scoil an chéad uair dá mba rud é gur scríobh tusa síos an rud a scríobh sise, bheadh do thuisti agus do mhúinteoir scoile thar a bheith sásta leat. Ag an bpointe ina bhfuil sise, ina proiseas foghlamtha féin tá sise sé mbliana d'aois -- an dtuigeann tusa é seo? Rinne sise treaniarracht sp? abair i gceart a scríobh i nGaeilge agus ag an bpointe ina bhfuil sise níl sí réidh leis an phíosa eolais seo atá tusa ag ceartú. Sin an fhadhbh. In áit a rá fairplé duitse as ucht d'abairt, tá tú ag rá 'tá sé sin iomlann mí-cheart, cé go dtuiginn gach duine thú. Nuair atá leanbh agat agus é/í ag iarraidh bia, agus í/é ag screadaigh 'Bainne, bainne a Dhaidi!' an mbeafá á rá 'ní bhfaighfaidh tú do bhuidéal go dtí go gcloisim ' ba mhaith liom bainne le do thoil a Dhaidi'? Beadh do leanmh ag fail bás den ocras ach le gramadach i gceart aige/aici. Is é sin an fhadhbh leis an teanga seo agus an fáth nach bhfuil aon duine á labhairt sna sráideanna níos mó. Ach amháin i gcathair Nua-Eabhrach, b'fhéidir . . .

quote:

Everyone, yes, even linguists, should be allowed to make errors here without having their names posted for all posterity to read.

Tuigim anois cén fáth ar chuir mo bharúil an oiread sin olc ort, a Chailín. Fuair mé an méid seo anois díreach in alt ar an Indo (4 Feabhra '05): "their teacher is an Irish-American - Trinity College linguistics student Colleen Dollard". Yipes. Is ball de dhream an diabhail thusa chomh maith, más fíor sin. :-)

quote:

An bhfuil a fhios agat cé mhéad ama atá Olivia ag foghlaim na Gaeilge? Nuair a bhí tusa sé mbliaina d'aois agus tú ar scoil an chéad uair dá mba rud é gur scríobh tusa síos an rud a scríobh sise, bheadh do thuisti agus do mhúinteoir scoile thar a bheith sásta leat. Ag an bpointe ina bhfuil sise, ina proiseas foghlamtha féin tá sise sé mbliana d'aois -- an dtuigeann tusa é seo?

Ní maith an rud é daoine fásta a chur i gcomparáid le páistí d'aois áirithe.

Cinnte, is féidir "tá mé ag scríobh seo" a thuiscint. Ach, mar fhoghlaimeoir teanga, nár mhaith leat a fhios a bheith agat nach ndeirtear é sin? Ba mhaith liomsa a fhios a bheith agamsa... ansin dá rachainn go Gaeltacht, ní bheadh orm éirí cleachta le "á scríobh seo" a rá in ionad "ag scríobh seo".. agus freisin, bheadh Gaeilge níos fearr agam.

D'ainneoin an leibhéil ar a bhfuil duine ag foghlaim teanga, níl dochar ar bith ann comhairlí a thabhairt dóibh ó am go ham.

quote:

Rinne sise treaniarracht sp? abair i gceart a scríobh i nGaeilge agus ag an bpointe ina bhfuil sise níl sí réidh leis an phíosa eolais seo atá tusa ag ceartú. Sin an fhadhbh.

Ní fheicim aon fhadhb. Is féidir le moncaí seo a leanas a thuiscint: Ná habair "ag scríobh seo", abair "á scríobh seo".

quote:

In áit a rá fairplé duitse as ucht d'abairt, tá tú ag rá 'tá sé sin iomlann mí-cheart, cé go dtuiginn gach duine thú.

"iomlán mícheart"? Tá tú ag cur focal i mo bhéal -- focail nach ndúirt mé. "Beagán mícheart" a déarfainn -- ach níos tábhachtaí, léireoinn dóibh an fhoirm cheart.

quote:

Nuair atá leanbh agat agus é/í ag iarraidh bia, agus í/é ag screadaigh 'Bainne, bainne a Dhaidi!' an mbeafá á rá 'ní bhfaighfaidh tú do bhuidéal go dtí go gcloisim ' ba mhaith liom bainne le do thoil a Dhaidi'? Beadh do leanmh ag fail bás den ocras ach le gramadach i gceart aige/aici.

Greannmhar.

quote:

Is é sin an fhadhbh leis an teanga seo agus an fáth nach bhfuil aon duine á labhairt sna sráideanna níos mó. Ach amháin i gcathair Nua-Eabhrach, b'fhéidir . . .

Seafóid. Ní labhraítear an Ghaeilge in Éirinn mar ní féidir leis an muintir í a labhairt. Agus cén fáth nach féidir leo í a labhairt? Bhfuel, as mo thaithí féin, d'fhreastal mé ar scoileanna in Éirinn, agus bhí na múinteoirí Gaeilge uafásach. Beirt mhuinteoir Gaeilge maith a bhí agam in iomlán mo bhlianta ar scoil -- agus ceithre bliana déag atá i gceist. Dá mbeadh an teanga ag na daoine, níl agó i m'intinn go labhróidís le chéile í.

Réitigh don "fhadhb":

1) Múin an Ghaeilge
2) Spreag an teanga a labhairt

Anois, mura maith leat ceartú, claon do cheann:

red = mispellings, misplaced fada's
blue = wrong case or tense
orange = just not right

quote:

Éist a Fhear na mBróg, a chroí,

An bhfuil a fhios agat cé mhéad ama atá Olivia ag foghlaim na Gaeilge? Nuair a bhí tusa sé bliana d'aois agus tú ar scoil an chéad uair dá mba rud é gur scríobh tusa síos an rud a scríobh sise, bheadh do thuismitheoirí agus do mhúinteoir scoile thar a bheith sásta leat. Ag an bpointe ina bhfuil sise, ina proiseas foghlama féin tá sise sé bliana d'aois -- an dtuigeann tusa é seo? Rinne sise treaniarracht sp(?)? Abairt i gceart a scríobh i nGaeilge agus ag an bpointe ina bhfuil sise níl sí réidh leis an phíosa eolais seo atá tusa ag ceartú. Sin an fhadhb. In áit fairplé a rá duit as ucht d'abairte, tá tú ag rá 'tá sé sin iomlán mícheart, cé go dtuigeann gach duine thú. Nuair a bhíonn leanbh agat agus é ag iarraidh bia, agus é ag screadach 'Bainne, bainne a Dhaidi!' an mbeifeá á rá 'ní bhfaighaidh tú do bhuidéal go dtí go gcloisim 'ba mhaith liom bainne le do thoil a Dhaidi'? Beadh do leanbh ag fáil báis den ocras ach le gramadach i gceart aige. Is í sin an fhadhb leis an teanga seo agus an fáth nach bhfuil aon duine á labhairt sna sráideanna níos mó. Ach amháin i gcathair Nua Eabhrach, b'fhéidir . . .

Right Fear Na Brog -

I'll come clean with you on this one. I have been teaching English for the past three years. I've been to courses, i've been to in house training, I've been to business lunches with Doctors of language teaching. People who have been doing this all their lives.

There are rules to correction, and the first is never to correct a students every mistake. Yes - even if it is 'Ta me ocras'. A student will not learn if you correct every mistake, they will only be discouraged. Here's how to correct:

1. Look at the mistakes.
2. Look at the mistakes which are repeated.
3. Think "Are these mistakes appropriate for this level?"
4. If yes, say nothing.
5. If no, pick one repeated mistake.
6. Point it out to them.
7. Show them why they are making that mistake and how to recognise it in future.
8. Leave all the other mistakes.
9. Congratulate student on their hard work.

That's how to correct in a class. As for correcting on a board like this, I don't think it should be done.

Like others on this board, I speak Irish, I speak it pretty well, not fluently, but I speak it, and I like to speak it. I have been reading these posts for two years and it is a year and a half since I attempted to write anything in Irish.

Why? Because I can't be as clever in Irish, I'm not fluent, I can't say all the things I want to say. And with people like FNB around, this is a board where you really have to be clever. That's why most of the posts here are about linguistics and not elementary and intermediate students trying to have a natter.

Can you not see, FNB, all the posts where an intermediate student has met up with an elementary student, and they start talking, and then you come in and correct them, and then, they're gone.

I used the phrase 'doing it out on the street' in the last post because it is a cliche collocated with drink and drugs and prostitution. I used it because it makes it sound like what you do is dirty and unsavoury. And, for the record, I think it is. I really do.

By the way, what you did to Cailindoll's post just there was really mean-spirited. You did it just to upset her, just like you did with my post earlier.

Finding mistakes in other people's work is not a way of defending yourself.

I don't know how other people on this board can defend what you do.

Nach tú atá cliste Dennis. Ach I wasn't exactly in the closet! Agus FnB, you're a product of these teachers, you've made my point perfectly for me without realizing it. We're just trying to pull you away from the darkside, you know -- to tell you that this style of competitive correction of people's conversation attempts -- (no matter how good their grammar should be) is like a weight around our necks dragging the fun out of this site. At a lecture on preserving minority languages at a NAACLT conference this summer in Wales, David Crystal said that one of the biggest threats to minority languages comes from people attacking each other from within.

Tá ceist eile agam oraibh mura miste libhse:

(Agus i mBéarla to save FnB the trouble of repainting all my erroneous words with his clever paint by number grammar hues! ;)

I'm looking for cúpla specific samples of 'droch-Gaeilge' uaibhse:

Namely -- examples where people tend to use Irish language words in English language constructions -- not code-switching or mixing English into Irish words and sentences, but using Irish language words in an order that's not natural to Irish. Since most Irish speakers also know English we do this a lot without realizing it -- Or I shouldn't speak for anyone but myself, b'fhéidir, I do it without realizing it. For example, you hear things like 'Tá sé suas leat féin' for 'It's up to you.' Can anyone think of others that you've heard -- and what the more natural way of saying them in Irish might be?

quote:

Nach tú atá cliste Dennis.

Au contraire! I was painfully slow on the uptake there.

(Gosh, is maith liom na boscaí beaga seo! GRMA arís as an gcleas seo a mhíniú dom, a Fhear na mBróg.)

Asking for examples of common Béarlachas and better alternatives is a good idea. Can we start a new thread for it? It may be my imagination, but it seems like it's taking longer and longer to load this one, which has grown extremely long.

In ainm dílis dé.. Eist ar feadh soicind -
"I really just don't understand why people feel put down when they're offered correction." It doesnt matter WHATSOEVER if you want to do it, if you dont understand why they/we dont want to be corrected, whether its unintentional or not, if you'd be glad of corrections in their/our shoes 7rl 7rl..
Its simply not wanted so why do it? Led thoil cur stop leis.

"If Olivia is bothered enough to learn Irish then I think she would be more than happy to know how to say and write it properly." Hold on a second now - She obviously one of the few people who is bothered to learn Gaeilge, why the devil else would she be here???

"I'm more than willing to "negotiate" " Negotiations aren't needed, just stop forcing unwanted corrections down peoples throats.

This really is being blown out of proportion.

Simply -

Stop correcting learners unless you know its wanted. Not hard to do. Anois, an bhféadaimís dul ar aghaidh leis an gcomhrá?!

>Nua-Eabhrach

That means Modern Hebrew (as an adjective or for a noun refering to people) :-). New York is Nua Eabhrac in Irish.
- ch and c are not pronounced the same way (/x/ and /k/). Normally if you pronounce well you don’t make such mistakes.

Anyone going to go after this one the way you went after FnamB?

I think this thread should be shut down, lest any more arguments start.

It is obvious that 'unregistered guests' are riling for fun.

Of course, I'm not second guessing the admin.

It appears that JD and Robert are the two "unregistered guests."

My point is that FnamB has come a long way from his first posts several years ago. Moreover, he does not stand alone in either intensity, nor insensitivity when it comes to correcting people. As was stated above....the fun has gone out of this board as a result. I, for one, will NOT post as gaeilge for just the reasons mentioned but it has nothing at all to do with FnamB.

I have the same issues with Lughaidh's style of correction, but he's very well informed. And it was one of my funnier mistakes! You get top marks for your sounds and skills, clearly Lughaidh, but surely you know how brilliant you are already without having to continually leave messages of correction like that.

Your message could have just been a reminder that those two words are only one letter apart and that I should look out for that in the future.

But sadly instead it tells me that you are eager to eek out more praise for your legendary pronunciation skills and more eager still to make me feel smaller about mine.

Not everyone has those attention to detail genes that you have, Lughaidh and some of us who must rely on the dictionaries go fóill to compose better messages might not be able to lug them all down to the internet cafe for a quick bit of fun writing in Irish. For that is what this forum is for me. A chance to get a boost of the daltaí na gaeilge style comraderie when I need it. This site as I see it tries to offer what happens at these weekend events to a wider audience -- it, like them should be a helpful, warm environment where people care about each other and the language. It's sad for me to see it reduced to just a place where folks are only valued in terms of how well they know where to put their accents and h-anna. Because it's hard when paying by the minute, to be so exact. And the language is so much cooler than its h-anna and accents.

Hmmmm....in addition to speaking Irish, Cailindoll can read my mind, too!

Well stated young lady. You echo my thoughts as well as my approach to this site. This should be fun (as it once was in the not too distant past)not stressful (as it has become).

I used to use what little Irish I have while writing from work or while on vacation or away from home. Now, I won't even touch it if I don't have my dictionary and McGonagle ready at hand...and even then, I won't post it here!!

Dúirt Cailín:

quote:

it ... should be a helpful, warm environment where people care about each other and the language

"Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus"? Is breá le mná beathú is blás. Is fearr le fir comórtas is comhrac. Seanscéal é sin. Céard atá le déanamh?

Hey...if I wanted to have my every fault, shortcoming and minor error brought to my attention all I have to do is call my ex-wife.

quote:

if I wanted to have my every fault, shortcoming and minor error brought to my attention all I have to do is call my ex-wife

Más moladh atá uait, faigh bás. Más cáineadh atá uait, pós. :-)