Dia dhaoibh,

cad é a fhuaimeann tú na briathair 'bheadh' nó gach briathar éile ina fháistineach nó críochnaíonn mar sin - mar shampla 'beartaíodh' sa chanúint thuaidh?

grma roimh ré.

'b'a:r,ti:-@x Níl sé an-mhaith m'IPS. Ach, sílim go bhfuil sé seo cad é atá tú ag smaoinamh. Níl a fhios agam conas 'schwa' a dhéanamh. Rinne mé '@' a úsaid in áit é.

To display the schwa, ə, input the character tag used for this forum with the argument 601. It looks like /char{601} except that the slash goes the other way like \char.

This information I got from one of Lucas' earlier postings.

david actually brings up a good point.

What's the pronunciation in all the dialects and especially the standard of future tense verbs, for example Ithfidh mé, is it I-ig? I tend to pronounce the f which may be wrong, in an attempt to differentiate it from the modh conníollach. While I'm here, how to pronounce the modh coníollach, the f is pronounced in this one and the dh prnounced hard, nach ea? e.g. Ithfeadh mé, I-fock. So then, how is the gnáthchaithe pronounced? Ithadh - I-ock. Doesn't it ever get confused between the three?

By the way, I would pronounce bheadh - vay-ock

In Donegal, final -adh and -odh are pronounced as /-u/ for verbs.

bheadh > /v'eu/
beartaíodh > /b'artiu/
rachadh /rahu/

But there is one case in which that -adh of -odh would be pronounced as /-ət'/: when the word that follows the verb is sé, sí, sinn, sibh, seo, sin, siúd used as SUBJECTS of the verb:

bheadh sé /v’et' s'e/
rachadh sé /rahət' s'e/

but bheadh Seán /v'eu s'æ:n/

and seo an fear a dhéanfadh sin ("sin" isn't the subject) > /s'o n f'ar ə jænhu s'in'/

A Dháithí,
I didn't understand what you meant there. Input the character tag used for this forum....? What's involved on my keyboard? I really would prefer to use the schwa if I could. To me, the @ symbol sounds like the letter 'A' as in the words "cat" or "hat".

Grma.

A Mhaidhc_Ó_g,

What I meant by the character (or formatting) tag for this forum is:

\char


Under this website's Help section, there's some useful information for fadas and text formatting.

When I first saw Lucas' advice on creating the schwa I had trouble understanding it also, but it's really quite simple once you understand how the formatting code works.

1. First type the backslash character "\" (no quotes)

2. Then type "char" (no quotes)

3. Then type "{" (no quotes)

4. Then type "601" (no quotes)

5. Finally type "}" (no quotes)

Make sure there are no spaces between any of the characters you enter during steps 1 through 5 above. When you post your message, you should see the schwa character.

Here's the schwa character as created by the steps above:

ə

Dáithí

Let's see. \char(601)

:-((( Waaaggghh!
And if I try to use the alt+601, I get a capital Y. Darn. Yet, something keeps naggin' me that, if I can ead it on my screen, I should be able to somehow recreate it. I could swear I had this figured out and written down someplace along with all the other symbols I might care to use - ß, á, ä, £, etc.

You need to use the squiggly brackets { and }, not parentheses.

Ok, lig dom a iarradh arís - ə
Woo-hoo, I can make a ə - hahhh I can make a ə - hahhh!!! ;-) GRMMA, a chara!

quote:

Ithfidh mé, is it I-ig? I tend to pronounce the f which may be wrong, in an attempt to differentiate it from the modh coinníollach.

Future Tense: Íosfaidh mé
Modh Coinníollach: D'íosfainn

I pronounce "Íosfaidh mé" with three syllables:
1st: Take the word "geese" and remove the 'g' sound.
2nd: E, as in the actual letter, or in Irish, an 'i' fada.
3rd: May

I pronounce "D'íosfainn" with two syllables:
1st: Change the 'g' in "geese" to a 'd'.
2nd: The "hin" in the English word "hinder".

Not right, a Fhir na mBróg.

In all dialects (ALL), an -idh or -igh at the end of a verb before a subject pronoun (mé, sé, sí, tú, etc) is pronounced like a schwa /ə/, NOT like an /i/. It is pronounced like an /i/ (Donegal), /ig’/ (Munster), /ə/ (Connemara) when the subject is another thing than these subject pronouns.

rachaidh mé > pronounced as if it were racha’ mé
scríobhfaidh mé > scríobhfa’ mé
ólfaidh mé > ólfa’ mé
brisfidh mé > brisfe’ mé
ceannóidh mé > ceannó’ mé
cheannaigh mé > cheanna’ mé

BUT: rachaí Seán (Donegal), rachaig Seán (Munster), racha Seán (Connemara), cheannaí Máire (Donegal), cheannaig Máire (Munster), cheanna Máire (Connemara), and so forth.

The -f- of the future and conditional forms are pronounced in parts of Munster, that’s all. So to say, it’s a minority pronounciation: elsewhere, people pronounce that written f as an h.

So:

íosfaidh mé > like íosfa’ mé: ee-suh may /i:sə m’e(:)/. I think that in this verb, the -f- isn’t pronounced in any dialect because it isn’t etymological (ith is a special verb). Actually, in Munster they may say "íosfad" /i:səd/, without the "mé".

d’íosfainn > dyee-sin (but the -n is pronounced as in "new") /d’i:siN’/.

Lughaidh, you said: beartaíodh should be read /b'artiu/.

What happens with verbs that take the same endings (...aíodh) but have l or n - do they become palatal (because of the i sound), or they're pronounced still broad?

a verb like that is 'tarlaigh'


Thanks

Why don't verbal endings get respelt?

Can someone here do out a table of all verbal endings and there changed contexts (such as the exmaple above where the word that follows the verb is "sé, sí, sinn, sibh, seo, sin, siúd used as SUBJECTS of the verb" and is consequently different).?

There are tables right here on this site in the grammar section. The ones on irregular verbs aren't total, but give a good start. How're you studying? Do you have any lesson or grammar books?

"Do you have any lesson or grammar books?"

Sorry, that post was very vague, and well, meaningless.

Yes, i have numerous books, but I want a map of the sounds of all the native dialectical verbal endings, specific to the regions. If there is no list, I will ahve to make one myself. I only wanted to know if someone else had done so.

The grammar section on Daltaí has no such informaation.

For example:
"In all dialects (ALL), an -idh or -igh at the end of a verb before a subject pronoun (mé, sé, sí, tú, etc) is pronounced like a schwa /ə/, NOT like an /i/. It is pronounced like an /i/ (Donegal), /ig’/ (Munster), /ə/ (Connemara) when the subject is another thing than these subject pronouns."

I am interested in the language from a phonological perpective, primarily. Also, I'd like to know if verbs are more immune form sandhi than nouns. Again, I will have to find that out myself as book ignore such 'petty' details. I view books as just sources for referecne. I don't beleive any of them are good as training aids, as someone just sat down an wrote them out, with no experimentation carried out as to how the brain aquires the L2 langauge.

Maidhc_Ó_g ,

""Do you have any lesson or grammar books?"

Sorry, that post was very vague, and well, meaningless."

I mean my previous post was very vague, not yours.

>íosfaidh mé > like íosfa’ mé: ee-suh may /i:sə m’e(:)/. I >think that in this verb, the -f- isn’t pronounced in any >dialect because it isn’t etymological (ith is a special >verb). Actually, in Munster they may say "íosfad" /i:səd/, >without the "mé".

If the f isnt etymological why is it there a chara?

>Lughaidh, you said: beartaíodh should be >read /b'artiu/.

>What happens with verbs that take the same endings >(...aíodh) but have l or n - do they become palatal >>(because of the i sound), or they're pronounced still >broad?

>a verb like that is 'tarlaigh'

Tharlaíodh /ha:rliu/...
Cruinnigh > chruinníodh /xriN’iu/... etc



>Why don't verbal endings get respelt?

In order to make them easier to learn?

>Can someone here do out a table of all verbal endings >and there changed contexts (such as the exmaple above >where the word that follows the verb is "sé, sí, sinn, >sibh, seo, sin, siúd used as SUBJECTS of the verb" and >is consequently different).?

-(a)idh / -(a)igh > /ə/ before these words (sé, sí, etc when they are subjects), otherwise /ig'/ in Munster, /i/ in Donegal, /ə/ in Connemara (I don't know for Mayo, maybe it's like Donegal).
With verbs like dóigh (to burn), you’ll get:
dhó’ mé (Ulster & Connemara)
dhós (I burned)(Munster - they have synthetic endings in the past)

but
dhóigh Seán /gho:j s'æ:n/ (Donegal), /gho: s'a:n/ (Connemara), /gho:g' s'a:n/ (Munster).



-adh, -odh (so for -fadh, -feadh, -ódh, -eodh, -aíodh etc, that is to say, broad -dh at the end of a verb) > /ət´/ when the subject is sé, sí, sinn, sibh, siad, (sometimes seo, sin, siúd), in Donegal and Connemara. In Munster, they say /əx/.
With other subjects, -adh and -odh are pronounced /u/ in Ulster, /əx/ in Munster and Connemara.

>Yes, i have numerous books, but I want a map of the >sounds of all the native dialectical verbal endings, >specific to the regions. If there is no list, I will >ahve to make one myself. I only wanted to know if >someone else had done so.

Try to get Wagner's LASID (Linguistic Atlas and Survey of the Irish Dialects), the 1st volume has maps, and the 3 other ones gives dialect forms of many places in Ireland, as a list - you have the English questionnaire at the beginning, and a map with one number for every place, in order to identify them after.
It's not so expensive (I know linguistic atlases that are very expensive). It's edited by DIAS, you'll find them here: http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-7.html

You can buy each volume separately.

>The grammar section on Daltaí has no such informaation.

Most learners (and teachers when non-native) don't know there is such difference in pronounciation for these forms... That's why schoolchildren learn wrong pronounciations like "chuaigh mé" as /xuig' m'e/, that is impossible for 2 reasons:
1: because if the subject is mé, you can't have that -igh ending pronounced as /ig'/
2: the -igh is only pronounced /ig'/ in Munster, and to say "i went", they say "chuas" in Munster, not "chuaigh mé".

>I am interested in the language from a phonological >perpective, primarily. Also, I'd like to know if verbs >are more immune form sandhi than nouns. Again, I will >have to find that out myself as book ignore >such 'petty' details. I view books as just sources for >referecne. I don't beleive any of them are good as >training aids, as someone just sat down an wrote them >out, with no experimentation carried out as to how the >brain aquires the L2 langauge.

Try that atlas, you'll find many interesting things in it.


>íosfaidh mé > like íosfa’ mé: ee-suh may /i:sə m’e(:)/. I >think that in this verb, the -f- isn’t pronounced in any >dialect because it isn’t etymological (ith is a special >verb). Actually, in Munster they may say "íosfad" /i:səd/, >without the "mé".

>If the f isnt etymological why is it there a chara?

It is written with an -f- in order to make it have a regular ending in spelling (so it is easier to learn), as other verbs. I wonder why they added an -f- to íosaidh (the original form) and not to rachaidh, for example. Maybe because rachaidh is etymologically raghfaidh, (in pronounciation, ghf becomes ch if the f is pronounced as an h) so there would be 2 f’s...