Can some one please translate this simple little conversation into Irish for me please.

- Put the dog in the sitting room.
- The dog sleeps in the kitchen -- not the sitting room.

I don't know quite how to capture the "not" above. Here's my attempt nonetheless:

- Cuir an madra sa seomra suite.
- Sa chistin a gcodlaíonn an madra, ní sa seomra suite.

Or would it be "gan sa seomra suite"?

Would all the fluent people here please give it their translation into Irish.

Sa chistin seachas sa seomra suite a chodlaíonn an madra.

Feicim.

Níl sé róthábhachtach, ach táim fiosrach, an bhfuil fáth ann go gcuireann tú séimhiú ar "codlaíonn" seachas urú?

( Ar úsáid mé an focal "seachas" i gceart thuas? )

>an bhfuil fáth ann go gcuireann tú séimhiú ar "codlaíonn" seachas urú?

Níl fhios agam!

>Ar úsáid mé an focal "seachas" i gceart thuas?
d'úsáid

Mar sin an féidir "seachas" a úsáid go cosúil le "in ionad".

Cheannaigh mé madra in ionad cait.
Cheannaigh mé madra seachas cat.

An mbeadh an cheart agam an dá acu seo a aistriú mar:

I bought a dog instead of a cat.

Ach feicim go bhfuil tuilleadh brí ag "seachas" sa chás:

Sa chistin seachas sa seomra suite a gcodlaíonn...

Anseo, ní aistrítear é go "instead", aistrítear é go "not", mar:

The dog sleeps in the kitchen, not the sitting room.

bheadh "rather than" níos cruinne ná "instead of"

Seachas also means "other than".

>- Cuir an madra sa seomra suite.
>- Sa chistin a gcodlaíonn an madra, ní sa seomra suite.

Sa chistin a _chodlaíonn_ an madra, ní sa seomra _suí_. (not "suite", according to Collins Gem dictionary. Seomra suite = situated room/sat room).

You use the séimhiú because it’s direct relative. The basic sentence would be "Is sa chistin a chodlaíonn an madra" (It is in the kitchen that the dog sleeps). In such case you would always use the direct relative.
You use the indirect one with places when you say "That is the place _where_ the dog sleeps" > Is é (sin) an seomra a gcodlaíonn an madra ann.


>Or would it be "gan sa seomra suite"?

No, you would use "ní". Gan is used before verbal nouns (dúirt mé leis gan dul anonn, etc) or verbal noun groups: dúirt mé leis gan é a dhéanamh, gan an balla a phéinteáil, gan an t-úlla a ithe...

Tá "seomra suite" sa chaint chomh maith le "seomra sui".
An aidiacht bhriathara de "suí" atá ann, i. "the room for sitting in"

fch: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-41,G GLD:en&q=seomra+suite

Using "suite" as the genitive of "suí" in this case is like how people use "déanta" as the genitive of "déanamh" in the same context... even though they're not really their genitive, it's just that the habit of using the adjective form takes over.

>Using "suite" as the genitive of "suí" in this case is >like how people use "déanta" as the genitive >of "déanamh" in the same context... even though they're >not really their genitive,

According to O Dónaill’s dictionary, suí as substantive has genitive "suí", and as verbal noun, "suite".

>it's just that the habit of using the adjective form takes over.

It’s not the adjective form. It just looks like it.


>Tá "seomra suite" sa chaint chomh maith le "seomra >sui".

cá háit ?

>An aidiacht bhriathara de "suí" atá ann, i. "the room >for sitting in"

Ní aidiacht bhriathartha atá ann ach tuiseal ginideach an ainm bhriathartha. Dá mba dh’é ’n aidiacht bhriathartha a bheadh ann, deirfí "sat room" i mBéarla.

>fch: http://www.google.com/search?>sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-41,G >GLD:en&q=seomra+suite

Ní cruthú ar bith agam a bhfaightear le Google. Má scríobhann tú focal ar bith le meancógaí móra ann, gheobhaidh tú le Google é. Cuartaigh thusa "thinked, "catched", "evryday", "teached" "na hEirinn" "Gaelige" agus meancógaí mar sin ar Google, ’s tchífidh tú !

Is é ’n rud atá ann nach bhfuil "seomra suite" ar bith i bhfoclóir Uí Dhónaill ná sna foclóirí eile. Creidfidh mé sibh nuair a bheas sé feicí agam i leabhar le cainteoir dhúchais nó nuair a chluinfeas mé ó bhunadh na Gaeltachta é... Go dtí sin beidh mé in amhras.

Maidir leis an séimhiú/urú, what is the "direct relative" is that related to the object or subject in any way? I always thought(well, recently, I had to find it out myself), that when the object is after the "a", it takes an urú, if it's before, it takes a shéimhiú. Thing is, I'm not really sure which is the object and which is the subject. Can anyone help?

Direct relative > the antecedent is subject or object of the verb of the relative clause.

Examples:

Is é an fear a fheicim. (he is the man who I see)
Subject of the verb "feic": -im (me)
Object: an fear.
So direct relative.

Is é an fear a fheiceann an madadh. (He is the man who sees the dog)
Subject of the verb "feic": an fear
Object: an madadh
Direct relative.


You use the indirect relative when the "antecedent" (the word the relative clause is linked to) has a genitive (>whose in English) or dative relation (prepositions) with the clause.

an bhean a bhfeicim a mac (bean > a mac)
= the woman who I see her son (?) / whose son I see (there i dunno the correct english form)

an bhean a n-éistim léi (bean > léi)
= the woman I listen to her

quote:

Is é an fear a fheicim. (he is the man who I see)
Subject of the verb "feic": -im (me)
Object: an fear.
So direct relative.

Is é an fear a fheiceann an madadh. (He is the man who sees the dog)
Subject of the verb "feic": an fear
Object: an madadh
Direct relative.

According to that, then the following sentence:

Sin an fear a bhearrann an féar

could mean either of:
A) That's the man who cuts the grass
B) That's the man whom the grass cuts

You can throw "oh yeah but context" in my face, and fair enough that's a good point. But I always thought it was:

That's the man who cuts the grass = Sin an fear a bhearrann an féar
That's the man whom the grass cuts = Sin an fear a mbearrann an féar.

Was I mistaken in thinking so?

quote:

the woman who I see her son (?) / whose son I see (there i dunno the correct english form)

"The woman whose son I see." is perfect.

Also to be pedantic,
"He is the man who I see" should be "He is the man whom I see". Use "whom" when it's preceeded by the object, use "who" when it's preceeded by the subject.

That's the man who saw me.
That's the man whom I saw.
That's the man to whom I was speaking.
That's the man from whom I got the book.
That's the man whose brother I murdered.
That's the man whose brother I was talking to.
That's the table whose leg I broke.
That's the table, the leg of which I broke.

I've never seen the likes of:
"That's the man to whose brother I was talking."
but there's no reason why it should be invalid.

You can use "whose" when dealing with an inanimate object (eg. table), but some people prefer to use "of which".

Fch An Foclóir Bheag:

AIDIACHT BHRIATH.
suite

http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/

---

Is le Dún Chaoin a bhaineann an nasc seo ina bhfuil seomra suite in úsáid:
http://www.dinglewest.com/eagle.htm

Agus seo ar suíomh na Roinne Gaeltachta: ach is dócha nach gcreideann tusa go bhfuil Gaeilge acu siúd ach oiread:

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/SeirbhisiCorparaidi/ForbairtChorparaideachTeicneolaiocht Eolais/SaorailFaisneise/LEABHARTAGARTHAALT16/SceimeannaCulturthaagusSoisialtasaG haeltacht/SceimnabhFoghlaimeoiriGaeilge/

>A) That's the man who cuts the grass
>B) That's the man whom the grass cuts

>You can throw "oh yeah but context" in my face, and >fair enough that's a good point.

Yes, that's how it is. Only context can tell you which one is the subject and which one is the object. Anyway if you want to avoid any problem, it's possible to make your sentence otherwise > sin an fear a bhíonn ag gearradh an fhéir, etc.

>But I always thought >it was:

>That's the man who cuts the grass = Sin an fear a >bhearrann an féar
>That's the man whom the grass cuts = Sin an fear a >mbearrann an féar.

>Was I mistaken in thinking so?

Yes, your second sentence is wrong.

>Also to be pedantic,
>"He is the man who I see" should be "He is the man whom >I see". Use "whom" when it's preceeded by the object, >use "who" when it's preceeded by the subject.

Ok. I knew that but i don’t use it, i know it looks "Shakespearian" when you write such things :-)

>You can use "whose" when dealing with an inanimate >object (eg. table), but some people prefer to use "of >which".

Ok. Thanx

>Fch An Foclóir Bheag:

>AIDIACHT BHRIATH.
>suite

Char úrt mé a mhalairt ariamh, a chara! D’úrt mé gurb aisteach liom "suite" a bheith ’na fhoirm ghinideach don ainm bhriathartha "suí". Agus ’na dhiaidh sin chonaic mé gur féidir é, nuair a bhaintear feidhm as "suí" mar ainm briathartha. Ach nuair a bhaintear feidhm as mar ainmfhocal, is í a fhoirm ghinideach "suí".

>Is le Dún Chaoin a bhaineann an nasc seo ina bhfuil >seomra suite in úsáid:
>http://www.dinglewest.com/eagle.htm

Ok, chonaic mé é agus tá sé ceart go leor - chan fhaca mé ariamh é aroimhe (i bhfoclóirí), ach Gaeilg leathanaigh sin a thug tú, tá sí iontach maith. Go raibh maith agat, d’fhoghlaim mé rud anocht.
Agus ba chóir daofa sin "seomra suite" a chur ins na foclóirí feasta.

>Agus seo ar suíomh na Roinne Gaeltachta: ach is dócha >nach gcreideann tusa go bhfuil Gaeilge acu siúd ach >oiread:

>http://www.pobail.ie/ie/SeirbhisiCorparaidi/ForbairtChor>paraideachTeicneolaiocht >Eolais/SaorailFaisneise/LEABHARTAGARTHAALT16/SceimeannaC>ulturthaagusSoisialtas aG >haeltacht/SceimnabhFoghlaimeoiriGaeilge/

Bhuel tá níos mó muiníne agam as leathanach a scríobh duine as an Daingean ná ins na leathanaigh ofaigiúla sine - haistríodh ó Bhéarla iad, agus ní cinnte gur cainteoirí dúchais a scríobh iad: rudaí garbha teicniciúla atá ann agus thig le duine ar bith a leithéid a scríobh - ní gá dó smaoitiú i nGaeilg le sin a dh’aistriú.
Maidir leis an Daingean, bheadh iontas orm munar chainteoir dúchais a scríobh an leathanach sin. Tá i bhfad níos mó muiníne agam as seo ná as stuif an rialtais.

Go rabh maith agat, oíche mhaith!

Fáilte romhat.

Nod beag: An Daingean = an baile is mó i gCorca Dhuibhne (ainm na leithinise). Le Dún Chaoin a bhain an lch úd; bheadh níos mó muiníne agamsa as rud a bhain le lastiar den Daingean na rud sa bhaile fhéinig, faraor.

quote:

Agus ba chóir daofa sin "seomra suite" a chur ins na foclóirí feasta.

Níl foclóir cuimsitheach ann fós, agus ní raibh riamh. Tá dóchas agam go mbeadh an ceann atá idir lámha anois níos fearr.

Sé. Agus tá daoiní ansin i mBAC arb é a jab foclóirí a dhéanamh, agus bhuel cha dtearnadh foclóir ofaigiúil ar bith ó chionn Uí Dhónaill (1978) agus ó chionn De Bhaldraithe (1956?). Airgead amugha?

Níl an oiread sin acu ann. Foilsíodh corr sain-fhoclóir sa tréimhse sin.

Ba cheart go mbeadh toradh le feiscint as seo go ceann bliain nó dhó. Obair mhall atá ann.

Chonaic mé oibreacha an Choiste Théarmaíochta ar shuíomh Acmhainn, agus dar liomsa, is iomaí focal aisteach ann (cé go bhfuil cuid mhaith ann ar aon nós), go minic cha dtearnadh ach cóip a dhéanamh don fhocal Bhéarla gan meabhrú ar an dóigh a n-abróchadh Gaeilgeoir. Is beag obair a rinn siad ó 1978, dar liom. Tá aithne agam ar dhaoiní a rinn níos mó oibre ina n-aonar taobh istoigh de chupla bliain ná a rinn an Coiste ó 1978.

A Lughaidh, a chara,

I think Fear na mBróg is right. You can also use an indirect relative clause when the antecedant is the object of the relative clause. According to Dónall P. Ó Baoill and Éamonn Ó Tuathail, Úrchúrsa Gaeilge, Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, 1992, pp. 213, 214, this is a third type of indirect relative clause

32.2 Trí Chineál Clásal Coibhneasta Indíreach

(i)Tá clásail choibhneasta (A) bunaithe ar ainmfhocail atá sa Ghinideach sna habairtí simplí (ag léiriú seilbhe)...

(ii) Tá clásail choibhneasta (B) bunaithe ar ainmfhocail atá sa Tabharthach sna habairtí simplí (ar lorg réamhfhocal)...

(iii) Tá clásail choibhneasta (C) bunaithe ar ainmfhocail atá sa Chuspóireach. Is é an t-ainmfhocal seo an réamhtheachtaí sna clásail choibhneasta. Forainm Pearsanta an t-iartheachtaí sa chineál seo clásail i gcónaí. Bíonn an t-iartheachtaí ag tagairt siar don réamhtheachtaí agus bíonn an dá fhocal ag réiteach le chéile i bpearsa, in uimhir agus in inscne.

You described the first two types above just as these authors did. The letter (C) they mention refers to examples they gave earlier, namely.

Abairtí Simplí	Clásail Coibhneasta Indíreacha
Bhuail an tintreach an crann.	Sin an crann ar bhuail an tintreach é.
Ní bhuaifidh aon tinneas na páistí.---	Páistí nach mbuaifidh aon tinneas iad.

The authors then point that this is a useful way to remove ambiguities that arise with relative clauses.

32.11 An Cuspóir agus Clásail Indíreacha
Nuair a bhíonn clásal coibhneasta bunaithe ar ainmfhocal atá sa Chuspóireach cuirtear an cuspóir sin chun tosaigh, mar réamhtheachtaí, agus an clásal coibhneasta ina dhiaidh.

Chonaic an garda an gadaí.---	Sin an gadaí a chonaic an garda.
Cháin an tEaspag na polaiteoirí.	Sin iad na polaiteoirí a cháin an tEaspag.
Shaor an luch an leon.	Sin an luch a shaor an leon.

Gan comhthéacs nó eolas breise ní féidir a rá cé acu cuspóir nó ainmní na hainmfhocail gadaí, polaiteoir nó leon sna habairtí atá sa dara colún ansin thuas. Fágann sin na habairtí céanna débhríoch. Má dhéantar clásail indíreacha astu, áfach, ní bhíonn débhríocht ag baint leo a thuilleadh.

Sin an gadaí a bhfaca an garda é.
Sin iad an polaiteoirí ar cháin an tEaspag iad.
Sin an leon ar shaor an luch é.

Tabhair faoi deara sna habairtí sin thuas go gcaithfidh na foraineach é agus iad atá sa chlásal coibhneasta tagairt iar donainmfhocal atá díreach roimh na míreanna a agus ar, faoi seach.

The authors wrote this text to help students prepare for the leaving Cert exams. Therefore, I believe this is standard Irish. It may not be something that happens much, if at all, in Donegal Irish.

(Message edited by lúcas on July 30, 2005)

Ok thanks A Lugaidh, that was a fair help alright. Thanks.

A Lúcáis,

I know the structures you gave, but these aren't what Fear na mBróg gave:

"That's the man whom the grass cuts = Sin an fear a mbearrann an féar."

The structure you've given above can't be used in that very case. His sentence is wrong. If we want to use the structure you've given, then we would give:

"Sin an féar a mbearrann an fear é"
(That is the grass THAT the man cuts it)

And if you want the contrary sentence (which is strange for its meaning)

"Sin an fear a mbearrann an féar é"
(That is the man THAT the grass cuts him)

That isn't what Fear na mBróg gave: no "é" in his sentence, so no need to have an indirect relative. It is that "é" that forces you to use the indirect relative.

And I didn't give that solution in the first place because I think nobody uses it in speech (and rarely in writing). People say "sin a fear a bhearrann an féar", and context is almost always sufficient to know what is the subject and what is the object.

Okay well just to give some integrity to my sentence, let's say I'm writing a fairytale book in which nature comes to life and fights back, so instead of the man cutting the grass, the grass cuts the man :)

Anyway...

Let's say we wanted to give a book the following title:

The man who cuts the grass.

We'd say:

An fear a bhearrann an féar.

One problem though, we've no context here, so it could possibly mean "The man whom the grass cuts.". I'm going to switch to using "cailín" so nobody starts missplacing fada's...

An cailín a bhearrann an féar.

Is there any way to resolve this ambiguity? None I know of. I'd probably get real explicit and say something like:

An cailín go mbearrann sí an féar.

As for naming the book "The girl whom the grass cuts", I'd say:

An cailín a mbearrann an féar í.


Aon smaointí?

Looks like you only use an urú instead of a séimhiú in the following cases:

A) Posession

Sin an cailín a mbearraim féar a hathar.
That's the girl whose father's grass I cut.

B) Preposition

Sin an cailín a mbearraim an féar léi.
Sin an cailín lena mbearraim an féar.
That's the girl with whom I cut the grass.

C) Being explicit and repeating "é", "í" or "iad" to resolve ambiguity

Sin an cailín a mbearrann sí an féar.
Sin an cailín a mbearrann an féár í.

I wonder if you can use "go mbearrann" in the above instead of "a mbearrann"?

Don't put your brain upside down for that: I'm sure nobody is silly enough to understand your title as "the man whom the grass cuts", so stick to "An fear a bhearrann an féar" and everybody will understand. It's easier to understand than a very rare (and maybe incorrect) sentence like "an fear a mbearrann sé an féar". Not sure that people would understand this immediately. The simplest solution is often the best one.

Okay then Lughaidh, I want to name the book:

The grass that cuts the girl

It's a fairytale as I described earlier. How would you name it so?

An féar lenar gearradh an cailín!

Since girls do not (usually) have beards, bearr is the wrong verb!

See also: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/gramadach/gnathbhotuin/saorbhriathar.html

>Okay then Lughaidh, I want to name the book:

>The grass that cuts the girl

>It's a fairytale as I described earlier. How would you >name it so?

Nonsense title, even for a fairy tale (never heard such) but you could try "an cailín a bhíonn á gearradh ag an fhéar".

(Message edited by Lughaidh on August 11, 2005)

quote:

Nonsense title, even for a fairy tale (never heard such) but you could try "an cailín a bhíonn á gearradh ag an fhéar".

Not up to you to pass judgement on books' titles...

Or more compactly:
Féar gearrtha an chailín
(compare with "lucht múchta dóiteán" or "Cailín deas crúite na mbó").

Lughaidh's point, FnaB, is that you are (once again) contriving an odd example to prove an abstruse point.

(Message edited by aonghus on August 12, 2005)

quote:

Or more compactly:
Féar gearrtha an chailín
(compare with "lucht múchta dóiteán" or "Cailín deas crúite na mbó").

Never thought of that... instantly made me think of a poem I read in school: "Fear Lasta Lampaí" by Máirtín Ó Díreáin.

What you've got is: An fear a lasann lampaí

Then it's reduced to nouns: fear, lasadh, lampaí
Then the last two are put in the genitive: Fear Lasta Lampaí

I'm not entirely sure if that's how it works but it seems likely to me. (I'm wondering though if "lasta" is possibly the adjective rather than the verbal noun in the genitive...)

aidiacht atá ann.

Más aidiacht atá inti... tá mearbhall orm!

Fear Lasta Lampaí

A lit man of lamps
Lamps' lit man

Níl ciall leis!

Thuigfinn "a man of lighting of lamps", ach ainm briathartha a bheadh ann sin!

Ag féachaint ar:

cailín deas crúite na mbó

Shílfinn dá ndeirfí é sin mar "cailín deas chrú na mbó".

An bhfuil aon mhíniúchán agat faoin bhfáth go mbaintear úsáid as an aidiacht seachas an t-ainm briathartha?

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on August 12, 2005)

Ag tógáil:

lucht múchta dóiteán

Thuigfinn dá ndeirfeá gurb ainm briathartha atá i "múchta" seachas aidiacht:-

Na hainmfhocail:

lucht : group
múchadh : quenching
dóiteáin : fires

Cuirtear le chéile iad agus cuirtear an dá cheann deireannach sa tuiseal ginideach

múchadh - múchta
dóiteáin - dóiteán

Lucht Múchta Dóiteán

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on August 12, 2005)

>aidiacht atá ann.

Aontaím go hiomlán le Fear na mBróg: ní aidiacht atá ann ar chor ar bith (cé go bhfuil a’ chuma chéanna air) ach ainm briathartha sa tuiseal ghinideach.

Fear lasta lampaí = the man of the lighting of lamps, not "a man lit of lamps".

Le hainm bhriathartha eile, a chríochnóchadh ar -áil mar shampla, gheobhfá "fear tógála tithe", chan "fear tógtha tithe".

Is dócha go bhfuil sibh ceart.

Ní dócha ach cinnte. ;-)

>> Is dócha go bhfuil sibh ceart.

Deirtear "tha sibh ceart" i nGaeilge na hAlban. Ach nuair a bhí mé ag foghlaim Gaeilge na hÉireann (bhí Gàidhlig agam cheana, so ní raibh sí an-deacair) dúradh liom gur cheart dom idirdhealú a dhéanamh ar "tá an ceart agat" (tu as raison, du hast Recht) agus "tá tú ceart" (you're okay). An bhfuil an t-idirdhealú sin ag dul i léig?

Tá, de réir achan chosúlachta, de dheasca thionchar a’ Bhéarla, gan amhras ("you are right"). Chan abróchainnse féin "tá tú ceart" am ar bith.

quote:

Le hainm bhriathartha eile, a chríochnóchadh ar -áil mar shampla, gheobhfá "fear tógála tithe", chan "fear tógtha tithe".

This is a bit of a tricky issue.

Taking the verb "déan", here are a few of its forms:

Verbal noun: déanamh
Verbal ajective: déanta

Verbal noun in the genitive: déanaimh

As you say, you have "fear tógála tithe" in the place of "fear tógtha tithe", but then you come across the following:

d'ainneoin a dhéanta
in spite of what he did (in spite of his doing)

Here you can see that the person has followed the usual rule that the verbal noun in the genitive is a carbon copy of the verbal adjective... even though it should be "déanaimh".

And then we still have:

Cailín deas crúite na mbó

If this indeed is grammatically correct, then it gives weight to what Aonghus says (ie. that it's the adjective, not the noun in the genitive).

At the moment I still don't understand why it isn't:

Cailín deas chrú na mbó

A lot of verbal nouns have two genitives:

• one looking like the verbal adjective


• and a "normal" one according to their declension type

E.g. déanta and déanaimh, foghlamtha and foghlama, crúite and crú, etc.
You'll find both genitives in Ó Donaill and probably in other dictionaries.
(Ó Donaill: "crú, gs. as s. ~, as vn. ~ite", i.e. two genitive forms: crú and crúite)
There are two genitives because they are used in different situations:

Without any further object there is:
lucht foghlama = learners,
lucht óil = drinkers
(regular genitive 3rd declension: foghlaim, 1st declension: ól)
but with objects (i.e. nouns in the genitive or possessive adjectives) it is:
lucht foghlamtha na Gaeilge = learners of Irish,
lucht ólta fuisce = drinkers of whiskey,
lucht a ólta = drinkers of it (verbal adjective used as genitive of verbal noun)

But not all verbal nouns have 2 genitives:
Verbal nouns ending in -áil have only one genitive: -ála.
lucht tradála (na hÉireann)
not: lucht *tradáilte na hÉireann
Verbal nouns ending in -adh or -ú regularly have only one genitive which is the verbal adjective
buailte = of beating

And one further problem: It is impossible to use the nominative instead of the genitive in the case of verbal nouns (as you would do with normal nouns, e.g. teach mhac Sheáin)
The phrase cailin chrú na mbo would look like this and is wrong.
But in case that there were no genitive object "na mbo" then "crú" would be the regular genitive of "crú" (4th declension)
so cailín crú = girl of milking (without lenition) may be correct.
But because of the genitive object "na mbo" it can only be:
cailín crúite na mbo

Lars

Would a general overview be as follows...

Here's some verbal nouns:

crú
milleadh
múchadh
foghlaim
pleanáil

The genitive of these nouns are as follows:

crú
millte
múchta
foghlama
pleanála

But when these nouns in the genitive are further modified by a another noun which is in the genitive, then their genitive forms suddenly shift to a copy of the verbal adjective:

crúite
millte
múchta
foghlamtha
pleanála (except for this one!)

They also violate the "suspended genitive" rule aswell, as in:

cailín crúite na mbó

And even beyond that, they don't take a séimhiú in the suspended genitive like they should!

...now all I have to do is learn all that.

An fath gur úsáid mé "tá sibh ceart" ná go bhfuil sé cloiste go minic agam ag Conallaigh ar RnaG. "Tá an cheart agat" a bheadh agam de ghnáth, ach ós rud é gurbh Gaeilg a chleachtann Lughaidh....

Má tá an nós in Albain, seans gurbh as san a tháinig seachas ón mBéarla.

Is féidir go n-abrann Conallaigh "tá sibh ceart" ach níl ann ach Béarlachas.

Tá ’n t-ainmfhocal "ceart" firinscneach. Ba chóir duit "tá an ceart agat" a ráidht - ach tuigim gur deacair leat sin a dh’athrú in do chuid cainte má ghníonn tú ’n mheancóg sin ó rugadh thú.

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil mórán tionchair Alabnaigh ar Ghaeilg na hÉireann sa lá atá inniu ann (ach bhí i gcanúint áiríd, i nGlinntí Aontroma, canúint nach bhfuil beo níos mó le fada). Is minice a chluineas bunadh Thír Chonaill Béarla ná Gaeilg na hAlban.

quote:

Ba chóir duit "tá an ceart agat" a ráidht

Damnú air. Sin a scríos ar dtús. Tagann mearbhall orm toisc easpa cleachta; uaireanta is mó botúin a bhíonn agam nuair a smaoiním ró fháda faoi.

Bhfuil smaoitiú fada de dhíth ort le abairt chomh simplí coitianta sin a scríobh? :-)
Agus nach ndéanann tú duifear sa chaint eadar "cheart" agus "ceart"?

Easpa cleachta? Scríobhann tú i nGaeilg anseo achan lá!

Sea, ach níl taithí agam ar smaoineamh i dtearmaí gramadaí. Má chuirim an dua orm fhéin, is minic a ghním níos mó botúin ná mar a dhéanaim nuair a scríobhaim an chéad rud a thagann i'm cheann.
Sin mar atá sé. Ach ós rud é go mbíonn tusa de shíor ag léim amach ó taobh thiar de thor le do pheann dearg, cuirim an dua sin orm. Agus uaireanta is measa san ná a mhalairt.

quote:

But when these nouns in the genitive are further modified by a another noun which is in the genitive, then their genitive forms suddenly shift to a copy of the verbal adjective:
crúite
millte
múchta
foghlamtha
pleanála (except for this one!)

Yes, more or less. (But pleanála isn't really an exception. Lots of verbal nouns only have one genitive form, e.g. many verbal nouns in -áint, -úint, -cht)
cailín foghlamtha na Gaeilge = the girl learning Irish
And the same happens with possessive pronouns as objects of verbal nouns:
cailín a foghlamtha = the girl learning it (i.e. "her = Gaeilge")
and with possessive pronouns after "chun", "le linn" or other prepositions which require genitive case*:
chun a foghlamtha = to learn it (i.e. "her")
(perhaps easier: chun í a fhoghlaim.)
The last thing doesn't happen with nouns instead of pronouns: chun an Ghaeilge a fhoglaim, not: chun foghlamtha na Gaeilge

quote:

And even beyond that, they don't take a séimhiú in the suspended genitive like they should!

Lenition in genitive nouns depends on their antecedent:
Unfortunately, cailín is a masculine noun (though meaning "girl"), so genitive nouns following "cailín" aren't lenited, but following feminine nouns they are:
cailín crúite na mbo but: bean chrúite na mbo, for instance.

Lars

quote:

Lenition in genitive nouns depends on their antecedent:
Unfortunately, cailín is a masculine noun (though meaning "girl"), so genitive nouns following "cailín" aren't lenited, but following feminine nouns they are:
cailín crúite na mbo but: bean chrúite na mbo, for instance.

I wasn't suggesting that "crúite" be lenited on account of the gender of the noun it modifies... but because it's followed by a definite noun in the genitive, as in:

cailín chara an bhuachalla.

ainm mhac bhean an tí.

quote:

I wasn't suggesting that "crúite" be lenited on account of the gender of the noun it modifies... but because it's followed by a definite noun in the genitive, as in:
cailín chara an bhuachalla.
ainm mhac bhean an tí.

Yes, I did understand. That's why I wrote this sentence.
"Cara" and "mac" are no genitives but nominatives (though called "functional genitive": a nominative which just has the function of a genitive) and are so lenited.
Verbal nouns aren't in nominative but in (real) genitive and really are lenited on account of the noun they modify. That's what I tried to say.

Lars

quote:

Yes, I did understand. That's why I wrote this sentence.
"Cara" and "mac" are no genitives but nominatives (though called "functional genitive": a nominative which just has the function of a genitive) and are so lenited.
Verbal nouns aren't in nominative but in (real) genitive and really are lenited on account of the noun they modify. That's what I tried to say.

So you'd have:

fear crúite na mbó

bean chrúite na mbó

An dtuigim i gceart?

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on August 16, 2005)

So you could possibly translate "The hand that rocks the cradle" as:

Lámh Luasctha an Chliabháin

?

Which I myself think has a nicer flow to it than:

an lámh a luascann an cliabhán
an lámh a luascas an cliabhán

(Hypothetically speaking, if you could lenite an "L", then there'd be a séimhiú on "luasctha" in the above)

Yes, you can.
But I don't know if this construction is used that much.
(as well as you probably wouldn't say in English "the cradle-rocking hand", for instance)

BTW: An "L" can be lenited - not only in hypothesis :-)
(i.e. a difference is audible in certain dialects)

Lars

Yeah, to be more precise, a lenited L doesn’t change in spelling (never "lh") but in Donegal (for slender and broad L) and Connemara (only for slender l), there’s a difference in pronounciation:

broad unlenited l is pronounced dental (same position of the tongue as for ENglish th)

broad lenited l is alveolar (same sound as english ll in "will")

slender unlenited l is pronounced dental and very palatalized (same sound as Spanish ll, for English it would be like L-sound and Y-sound pronounced at the same time)

slender lenited l is pronounced alveolar and not much palatalized (a bit like English "to live").

>>broad lenited l is alveolar (same sound as english ll in "will")

the -l- in 'will' (as always when final or before consonant) is velarized
is it so in Irish ?

Yes, the "ll" in English "will" is the same as single broad /l/ in irish (it's alveolar).

The double one is dental.

In Connemara, according to Ó Siadhail they only have /l'/, /L'/ and /L/, so all broad l's are dental in that area. In Donegal we have the full set (4 l's): /L/ /l/ /L'/ /l'/.

In Munster, only 2 l's: /l/ and /l'/.

Yes, but is it also velarized?

Broad l's are always velarized, be they single or double.

ok, thanx :)

Si t'es en ligne prquoi tu viens pas sur MSN?

im looking for a word in irish



Flowers

Donald Alan Flowers

Aon Bhlath amháin: Blath

More than one: Blathanna

Ó Blathanna

Dónaill Alainn Ó Blathanna?

(Ó Blathainne would be to force it slender at the end at any cost)

I dont know the version of Alan in irish

quote:

I dont know the version of Alan in irish

Ailín

There is another word for Flower - lus (refers to the whole plant, not just the bloom):

However, as it seems not to be an Irish surname, I suggest not translating it.

---

lus [ainmfhocal firinscneach den tríú díochlaonadh]
luibh, planda.


lus mór (méaracán dearg).
Foirmeacha
lus - ainmfhocal lus [ainmneach uatha]
lusa [ginideach uatha]
lusanna [ainmneach iolra]
lusanna [ginideach iolra]