I live in South Dublin and I have a Dublin accent.

We all know that the human voice can produce a certain array of sounds (be they vowels, consonants, whatever). The IPA system has an exhaustive list of these sounds.

One thing though... not everyone can make all of these sounds. One reason why a person may not speak a certain language (or dialect thereof) "authentically" is because their accent may not have the flexibility to produce certain sounds naturally.

When I go abroad, people soon pick up on (and take amusement at) my pronouncing of "three" and "tree" the same. I pronounce "then" as "den", and "thanks" as "tanks".

Looking at it from an IPA perspective, I pronounce:

a) The sound: "θ" ... as "t" (ie. "thing" as "ting")
b) The sound: "ð" ... as "d" (ie. "then" as "den")


Now this feature of my accent is evident (and noted as "not right") when speaking English (although back in my home town there's nothing exotic about it).

But then we have Irish. Luckily enough, this feature of my accent doesn't show in Irish as it doesn't have these sounds. ( Perhaps this suggests that my accent may be genuinely associated with Irish? Even that the language was tailored to it? ).

Another feature of my accent is that I don't differentiate between a broad and a slender consonant. I pronounce all of the following identically:

airgead / airgid
adhmad / adhmaid


The closest thing I have to slender and broad consonants is:

suit / shoot
tap / chap
dam / jam

Funnily enough, when a consonant is slenderised in Irish (eg. airgead, airgid), I don't pronounce them any differently, except for "s" as in (bás, báis). I change the "s" from the s in "suit", to the s in "shoot".

Anyway, I've been living in Dublin for 18 years now and I've been speaking a bit of Irish for about 15 years. If anything, I think it's safe to say there is a Dublin dialect of Irish; we're all learning it in our schools down here and it's adapting to our Dublin accent.

Irish + Dublin accent = Dublin Irish

Which brings me to my last point: You can't learn to speak a language authentically unless you imitate the accent. I can definitely pronounce "there" and "thing" properly, but I won't in normal speech, it just doesn't come out naturally.

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on July 27, 2005)

I tink de way we pronounce 'tree' (3) in Ireland is part of the beauty and uniqueness of the English language as spoken in Ireland and long may it continue.
I have a bit of difficulty though with your assertion that "You can't learn to speak a language authentically unless you imitate the accent".
I've been speaking French for 17 years and I don't have a French accent, and even if I wanted one I couldn't do it because of the problems you mentioned of just not being able to make certain sounds.
Every time I open my mouth to speak French, a French person will say "Vous êtes Anglais Monsieur"? eh bah non!
So I think I speak French authentically, as in being able to communicate perfectly well, but it is obvious to a French speaker that I aint Francais.
Perhaps French is a special case, Lughaidh may have an opinion on this, because the Dutch for example seem to speak English with a less pronounced accent than English speakers adapt to French, and vice versa.

Anyway interesting subject. I don't know what accent I have when I speak Irish.

Sometimes I wonder if Dublin Irish actually has features of the long extinct Leinster Irish that were preserved in the Hiberno English of Dublin? Realizing of course that Dublin has been the heart of the Pale since day one.

I guess we'll never know for certain...

(Message edited by Searlas on July 27, 2005)

Accent: "subordinate variety of a language differing principally in phonology (pronunciation)"

Translation: you need set of X sounds to communicate in Y language. X = smallest number of phonemes required to be comprehensible in a particular language (basic phonetic set). Versions of those phonemes not required, but spoken anyway, are called allophones. They are not 'significant' (do not alter meaning when switched about). A regional accent is, in part, the use of allophones in a way that differs from the standard. Irish people tend to always use palatised phonemes and allophones when speaking English, whereas the RP delivery requires one to alternate palatised and velarised consonants in order to achieve a particular 'sound'. Also RP uses different vowels to those generally used in Hiberno-English (also intonation and rhythm are a little different).

Result: people speak with different accents. Grammar is not a massive component as one can utilise Hiberno-English phonemes but standard British grammar.

Before I go on, I must point out that the notion that one CAN NEVER ever sound like a native is hogwash, pure black magick. One can. If one uses the correct phonemes, average jaw laxity, degree of pharyngeal tension and resonance, grammar, glides, morphology, lips..... etc etc in the correct context one WILL sound native. I have meet foreigners down here in the country who have FLAWLESS english, to the point they seamlessly blend in. Its uncanny, they are idiomatic -the works. It can most definitely be done.

"my pronouncing of 'three' and 'tree' the same"
Fine, venerable feature of the auld Hiberno-English, I say. Tho, not strictly an ‘accent feature’, more specifically, a micro-feature of accent when in concert with other phonemes (i.e. it is a general feature which results in your 'accent', your accent does not 'cause' it).

"(Perhaps this suggests that my accent may be genuinely associated with Irish? Even that the language was tailored to it? )".

The brogue has providence, and came from 'English in the mouths of the Irish'. http://www.hiberno-english.com/

" I pronounce all of the following identically: airgead / airgid; adhmad / adhmaid ".

Oh...if you do not perceive /d/ and /d'/ as different, may I perchance suggest /d'z'/ which is 'j' as in 'gym' or 'jumbo'. /d'z'/ as well as /d'/ are heard in the mouths of natives.

"when a consonant is slenderised in Irish (eg. airgead, airgid), I don't pronounce them any differently...there is a Dublin dialect of Irish; we're all learning it in our schools down here and it's adapting to our Dublin accent".

Shockin'...((with a fierce/worried look) as they say in the capital). Sounds more like a Dublin dialect of late Manx...

Been unable to differentiate the contrasts, the genitive becomes only structural, not phonological, ie, nominative and genitive collapse where slenderisation is called for. What about plurals of certain words? éan/éin? Add an 's'? "Jeez bud, I just seen two éans flying about!"

"Irish + Dublin accent = Dublin Irish"

Irish + Dublin accent = Anglo-Irish

"You can't learn to speak a language authentically unless you imitate the accent".

I suspect it needs more that emulation of an accent; however, the brain is great at analogue reproduction from a limited input set. Perhaps imitating the accent of a foreign language can set 'for free' the non-conscious features we have little direct control over, but that are required for authentic speech. It would be great if imitation could get one half way, and training the rest.

Any research grants going for this sort of thing?

Well Robert, I hope that your quest for perfect Irish bears fruit. As for me, I'll just imitate what I hear the very best that I can. If it's perfect that's great, if not, it's not the end of the world.

I must ask you though, Robert, do you enjoy learning Irish? Doesn't it get tiring worrying about what your tongue, lips, teeth, etc, etc, are doing every moment that you're trying to speak it? To each their own I guess.

"do you enjoy learning Irish? Doesn't it get tiring worrying about what your tongue, lips, teeth"

I use a lot of sellotape, personally. Lego scaffolding to keep my jaw from not going too far, is handy also. I get a lot of strange looks in public tho...

One cannot control all those elements at once, they must become automatic, by training or learning. I only made the point that it is arrogant to expect the langauge to change on ones whim, and that it is not true that one cannot speak like a native.

Of course, if Jímí Óg 'ac Donnacha asks you which part of An Lochan Beag parish you come from, well, thats a different story.

quote:

Been unable to differentiate the contrasts, the genitive becomes only structural, not phonological, ie, nominative and genitive collapse where slenderisation is called for. What about plurals of certain words? éan/éin? Add an 's'? "Jeez bud, I just seen two éans flying about!"

"Jeez bud, I just seen" is only heard from the lowest of the working class in Dublin.

I was talking about consonants. I can slenderise vowels no bother. I pronounce the following as follows:

cat = Exactly as the English word "cot", as in a baby's bed.
cait = Exactly as the English word "quit".

bád = bawd (as in "the ice thawed", but with a "b")
báid = boid (as in "null and void", but with a "b")

I pronounce "éan" and "éin" identically.
I pronounce "capall" and "capaill" identically.

quote:

Irish + Dublin accent = Anglo-Irish

I get my accent from my ancestors. Were my ancestors not speaking Irish before they spoke English?

Interesting dicussion. Just to put in my two cents worth, I do believe it is possible to speak like a native regardless of what language you are speaking. However, some people seem to have a more difficult time to pick up accents than others. For instance, within 24 hours of arriving in Baltimore (County Cork, not Maryland!) I have visitors and locals alike thinking I'm actually from the area becaue I'm speaking just like them. (However, I must say that is when I'm speaking English with them since I haven't been brave enough to try out Irish yet since I'm such a beginner! I'm just referring to the ease of picking up someone else's accent.)

Also, when I speak French I am always mistaken as being French. (In Paris and here in New Brunswick - not so much in Quebec although they just recognize that I'm from New Brunswick, not that I'm English. I'd have to be there a little longer for them to mistake me for a Quebecoise but I'm sure it would happen). I just have an aptitude for picking up accents. It happens no matter with whom I am speaking - French, German, Italian, New Yawk!, etc). The downside of it is I just can't seem to stop myself from doing it and I do worry sometimes that the natives will think I'm making fun of them when I'm just following their lead! My son is the same way however my husband and daughter will never be mistaken for being anything other than English no matter what language they speak. Go figure! It's our individualism that makes life interesting! It's the same with everything one tries - it comes easier to some than others, but it's not impossible to learn.

>Another feature of my accent is that I don't >differentiate between a broad and a slender consonant. >I pronounce all of the following identically:

>airgead / airgid
>adhmad / adhmaid

Now, how do you make a difference between "a cat" and "cats" ? You don't make any? That's one of the reasons the difference between slender and broad consonants is that important in Irish.

>I must ask you though, Robert, do you enjoy learning >Irish? Doesn't it get tiring worrying about what your >tongue, lips, teeth, etc, etc, are doing every moment >that you're trying to speak it? To each their own I >guess.

For me, I don't get tired because i don't think of all that when i'm speaking. I pronounce the right sounds because i'm used to them now.

>I pronounce "éan" and "éin" identically.

That could make understanding problems.

>I pronounce "capall" and "capaill" identically.

/kap@L/ vs /kapiL'/. This one is very different wherever you go in the Gaeltacht.

>I get my accent from my ancestors. Were my ancestors >not speaking Irish before they spoke English?

Maybe they spoke Irish, but you know, there are different sounds in Irish and in English. All the sounds they used in Irish couldn't be used where they spoke English, like: when you speak English, do u need to make a differenc between broad and slender n? You don't. So, you've learnt English from your ancestors, and even if there are some Irish sounds in it, they aren't all in it. Irish has much more sounds than English, i think.

>So I think I speak French authentically, as in being >able to communicate perfectly well, but it is obvious >to a French speaker that I aint Francais.
>Perhaps French is a special case, Lughaidh may have an >opinion on this, because the Dutch for example seem to >speak English with a less pronounced accent than >English speakers adapt to French, and vice versa.

French and English sounds are very different, that's why it's so hard to a French speaker or to an English speaker to speak the other language without accent (but it's possible, I know people who speak perfectly the other language, and native speakers think they're natives as well). Dutch speakers learn English in an efficient way (unlike in France) from an early age, that's why they get good English. English is poorly taught in France, and maybe French people have shame when they pronounce sounds that don't exist in French, so they speak with a French accent, and teachers don't correct them on that.

it's not something that the average person will be able to do without extended immersion and even then, many (most?) will not.

I've managed through work to get rid of my joisey accent...which bring up an interesting point on dialect: no english class will ever teach things like "jeet?" ([did]ja eat? - have you eaten?)

I simply do not agree with the notion that one must have learned the language in the cradle to 'count'...language is a tool, and he who uses the tools makes the rules...if the dublin students outnumber the gaeltacht speakers then a shift has occurred - the language has evolved, the geography is different and those 'students' are now the trendsetters.

the urban areas of countries have always been the trendsetters. who writes the papers and makes the tv shows? that's where language is going to change - and if those who write the papers and magazines and make and star in tv shows are students then whatever is being taught to them in the classroom is the direction the language is going to move.

"so teach gaeltacht irish in the classroom"

which one, and why? I guarantee that whichever one you select, there will be twice as many in opposition as you have supporters - such is the nature of 'gaeilge dialect politics'.

adopt an academic standard for the students and get on with it!

quote:

Now, how do you make a difference between "a cat" and "cats" ? You don't make any? That's one of the reasons the difference between slender and broad consonants is that important in Irish.

>I pronounce "éan" and "éin" identically.

That could make understanding problems.

Well firstly, I pronounce "cat" and "cait" differently as I outlined above.

Secondly, a plural form isn't necessary in any language. Just ask the farmer about his sheep, or ask the fisherman about his fish.

Even An Ghaeilge does it:

Nominative singular: deisiú
Nominative plural: deisithe
Genitive singular: deisithe
Genitive plural: deisithe

>I simply do not agree with the notion that one must >have learned the language in the cradle >to 'count'...

One must have learned a language trying to be as close as possible to the language spoken by a native speaker.

>language is a tool, and he who uses the tools makes the >rules...

Then learn to speak "globish", not English. Most people who speak English nowadays aren't native speakers. Are they a model for English? I don't think so. I wouldn't choose to learn English with a Japanese man or with a French student, you know, but with a native English speaker.

>if the dublin students outnumber the gaeltacht speakers >then a shift has occurred - the language has evolved, >the geography is different and those 'students' are now >the trendsetters.

As I said, English language learners outnumber native speakers. Should they become a reference for English??? Oh yes, the language evolves a lot with learners, just come hear and listen to the 14-years old schoolchildren learning English, you'll see how different it is from your own language ! :-D

>who writes the papers and makes the tv shows?

Thanx God, for RnaG and TG4, i think that most people are native speakers or speak as natives.

>that's where language is going to change - and if those >who write the papers and magazines and make and star in >tv shows are students then whatever is being taught to >them in the classroom is the direction the language is >going to move.

no problem since these journalists are native speakers.

>"so teach gaeltacht irish in the classroom"

>which one, and why?

any dialect, according to the nearest Gaeltacht or according to what every teacher chooses.

>I guarantee that whichever one you select, there will >be twice as many in opposition as you have supporters - >such is the nature of 'gaeilge dialect politics'.

>adopt an academic standard for the students and get on >with it!

Learn a language that doesn't exist and that make native speakers have shame about their native language, and be happy with that! No, thanx.

>Well firstly, I pronounce "cat" and "cait" differently >as I outlined above.

why not éan and éin? Because English has just one sort of n? You should try to make a difference... When you learn a language, you should try to pronounce properly and not to stick to your mothertongue sounds. If i spoke English only with French sounds, my god, i'm not sure you would understand me...

>Secondly, a plural form isn't necessary in any >language.

It is in European languages.

>Just ask the farmer about his sheep, or ask the >fisherman about his fish.

These are exceptions. How many words like that in English? Maybe five? Don't make a rule out of that.

>Even An Ghaeilge does it:

>Nominative singular: deisiú
>Nominative plural: deisithe
>Genitive singular: deisithe
>Genitive plural: deisithe

I see a difference between deisiú and deisithe... Anyhow, deisiú is a verbal noun, and you seldom put a verbal noun in the plural - even more rarely in the genitive plural.

So if you want to learn English, you want a native Emglish speaker. From Toronto? Halifax? Jersey City? Biloxi? Manchester? Cornwall? Wales? The Hebrides? Edinburgh? We all speak English and understand each other but our accents, grammar and vocabularies are different. We are all accepted as native speakers. But it seems that in Ireland the only true native speakers must come from certain geographic areas or be told that they do not have Irish. And who does the telling? Not their fellow countrymen for the most part. It always amazes me when I hear people from another land criticize the natives of a country and "correct" them.

quote:

>Just ask the farmer about his sheep, or ask the >fisherman about his fish.

These are exceptions. How many words like that in English? Maybe five? Don't make a rule out of that.

What I was trying to illustrate is that the absence of a plural from has not caused any problems. When one wants to be explicit, they can use explicit words:

James, there's was loads of fish down at the harbour today!

Jimmy, look at the amount of sheep in that field!

>So if you want to learn English, you want a native >Emglish speaker. From Toronto? Halifax? Jersey City? >Biloxi? Manchester? Cornwall? Wales? The Hebrides? >Edinburgh?

From anywhere, according to the kind of accent i want to have... Actually, i speak english with a northern ireland accent. (Note: note sure that the Hebrides people should be considered as native speakers of English: for many of them, the mothertongue is Gaelic).

>We all speak English and understand each other but our >accents, grammar and vocabularies are different. We are >all accepted as native speakers. But it seems that in >Ireland the only true native speakers must come from >certain geographic areas or be told that they do not >have Irish.

Now, most Gaeltacht children are bilingual from early childhood: they hear both English and Irish. So they're native speakers in both.

>And who does the telling? Not their fellow countrymen >for the most part. It always amazes me when I hear >people from another land criticize the natives of a >country and "correct" them.

What i wanted to say is that learners, as Dublin speakers, are not a model for learners, and Dublin Irish can't be compared to Gaeltacht Irish because Dublin Irish speakers are all learners (or children of learners).

>James, there's was loads of fish down at the harbour >today!

>Jimmy, look at the amount of sheep in that field!

And do you think it'd be possible to speak Irish if you don't make any difference between singular and plural for all words of the first declension?

quote:

And do you think it'd be possible to speak Irish if you don't make any difference between singular and plural for all words of the first declension?

How about drop the sarcasm and make some arguments?

Here's my repetoire of languages:

English: Fluent and native speaker. Consider myself to be highly skilled.
Irish: Very proficient. Moderately fluent, but lacking in vocabulary, phrases, idioms.
German: Minimal proficiency. I can conjugate a few verbs in one or two tenses, I know a few words, but nothing much more.
Spanish: A handful of phrases, "Hello", "Thank you", "Goodbye", "A plain hamburger please".
French: "Hello", "Goodbye", not much else.

I know a handful of words from other languages, mostly the words for "hello", "goodbye", "thank you", "money", "please", "excuse me".

Anyway, out of all the languages I've encountered, I haven't seen any need for a plural form of a noun. Just decoration... throw into the basket there with the genitive case, the genders, the séimhiú, the urú.

"I can slenderise vowels no bother"

I take it to mean you can enunciate front vowels like é and í.

"cat = Exactly as the English word "cot", as in a baby's bed.
cait = Exactly as the English word "quit". "

In English bat, bet, bot, but, bit are all differentiated by the use of differing vowels in between unchanged consonants.
In irish one changes the consonants by alterations in polarity (broad to slender, or vice versa), by softening (lention) or by replacement (úrú). Vowels tend to stay constant.

As for the example word, one is not changing vowels in éan to éin, one is changing from velar 'n' to palatal 'n' and so the tongue must move differently to reach n by two different paths and then make one of two different types of n. 'a' and 'i' act as a good way to spell the changes, and signal the glides too.

In essence you have shown that you are making English changes to an Irish word, but in a way that neither language sanctions. It is indicative of a third language.

"throw into the basket there with the genitive case, the genders, the séimhiú, the urú".

Anyway, i dont think learners have the 'balance of power' in Irish. It is so a la carte, that it will become another language where you can add what you want. How will you be able to teach it? have them speak Chinese with an Dublin accent!

>English: Fluent and native speaker. Consider myself to >be highly skilled.
>Irish: Very proficient. Moderately fluent,

I won't say that if you don't make any difference between broad and slender consonants. These are the very basics in Irish pronounciation.

>Anyway, out of all the languages I've encountered, I >haven't seen any need for a plural form of a noun. Just >decoration... throw into the basket there with the >genitive case, the genders, the séimhiú, the urú.

Throw Irish in the basket then. Why do you want to speak Irish if you don't care for any of its basic rules?

Plural, decoration? Right, so it is silly for you to make a different between "Mharaigh mé duine" and "mharaigh mé daoine". Between "tá carr agam" and "tá cairr agam", etc.

If you don't care for grammar, why don't you put your words in any order, like "you grammar put order in any if yours for don't..." etc ?

Lughaidh, you read me all wrong.

I actually quite like the features of:

noun gender, noun case, adjective case, plural, séimhiú, urú

But what I'm saying is that none of these features are actually necessary for intelligible conversation -- I attempted to illustrate this with "sheep" and "fish".


Irish is the language of Ireland. Dublin is in Ireland. I challenge your argument that I'm not a good speaker because I don't differentiate between broad and slender consonants: I have heard and I do know the difference between a broad and slender consonant, but it's just like the situation I have with "th" in English.
Now you can dismiss me and say that I'm just a foreigner and I'm speaking with my own foreign accent (eg. French "I sink" for "I think"), but I challenge this again -- Dublin is in Ireland. I have a Dublin accent and I will speak Irish with the accent I adopted as a baby in Dublin, in the province of Leinster, in the country of Ireland.

Another thing you suggest is that I can't pronounce a slender "n" simply because there's no slender "n" in English (English being my native tongue). I challenge this again; take the Irish word "dath". The sound represented by the "th" in that word is not a sound present in English. But yet I can make that sound. There's plenty of Irish sounds which are not in English but which I still make, "ar an ngeata".

Now, as for my failure to slenderise consonants, it can be seen as either:

A) A dialectal idiosyncrasy of Dublin.
B) Just a foreigner trying to speak our language with his accent.

I choose the first one, because I'm adamant that Dublin has just as much a stake in the language of this country as does everyone else. There's more Irish people in this small county than in any other of the large counties. Sure we may be speaking English, but those who choose to speak Irish are more than entitled to take claim to the Irish language as theirs, and they're free to speak it authentically with the accent of their localitly, which is, after all, on Éirinn's green land.

So I'm from Dublin, and I pronounce "éan" and "éin" identically. Stick that down in one of your grammar books as a dialectal idiosyncrasy of Dublin.

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on July 29, 2005)

To be frank, I don't really understand Fear na mBróg's point. I have two native tongues - Russian and Lithuanian (through my mother and my father correspondingly). Both have broad/slender distinction as integral part of their phonology, interestingly enough Lithuanian is even using similar (to some extent) to old-Irish system of notation of slenderness - silent "i" is inserted after slender consonant before a broad vowel. E.g. our capital is Vilnius - second "i" is exactly to show that both "l" and "n" are slender in front of "u" ;-) So, coming back to the discussion - any foreigner (most often English)speaking Lithuanian who can't reproduce slender consonants can be readily understood in majority of situations, BUT - nobody would ever dream, that this pronounciation is CORRECT, never! that person may speak passable Lithuanian - but is under thick layer of FOREIGN accent. So I find it completely ludicrous to have to PROVE that it is not acceptable not to make slender/broad distinction in Irish. It is just the way language is - take it or leave it!
By extending Fear na mBróg's logic, you may well suggest that to play Chopin's music it is enough to press piano's keys, who cares if it is wrong order or at wrong speed, isn't it? I think that pressing piano's keys in wrong order is rather cacophony and not music, so the Irish pronounced à la Dublinese is not a good Irish. I am polyglot myself and I was exposed to different languages, so believe me, in other languages with musical accent sometimes the only difference between words hinges on different musical syllabical pitches - people HEAR it, and UNDERSTAND it - although this should be unfathomable for English speakers who even don't HEAR slender/broad distinction. So my suggestion is - either try to emulate Gaeltacht's pronounciation or stop pretending that you PRONOUNCE correctly.

In response to Rómán:
Again I challenge your assertion of me having some sort of "foreigner" pronounciation. I'm from Dublin, the capital of Ireland. Fullstop.

Here's a question.

If I pronounce "then" and "thing" as "den" and "ting", am I speaking English with a "foreign accent"? I'm no different from the French man saying "I sink"; the only thing is I have a little bit more credibility because English is my native "with the milk" tongue.

So here, pick a part of Ireland. If you're not from there, you've got a foreign accent.

I pick Munster, so Lughaidh, you've got a foreign accent.

Quote:I'm from Dublin, the capital of Ireland. Fullstop.

Dublin was founded by Vikings and was never a particularly Irish-speaking place anytime throughout the history. Fullstop.

Dublin is populated by Irish people. I wonder where the Irish people came from?

(On a side note: I didn't write "the capital of Ireland" with a supremicist attitude, I just wanted to emphasize that Dublin is a part of Ireland, but in no way suggesting that it's any "better" than the rest of the country)

Quote: Dublin is populated by Irish people.

Fair point. But you are mixing up 3 things - nationality (of Irish Republic no doubt, although some people I imagine can have British passports), ethnicity (roots of people - big part of Dublin's inhabitants trace their roots to England, not other Ireland), and mother tongue (Dubliners who even trace their roots to remaining Ireland did not acquire Irish as mother tongue).

So going point by point - what do u mean by expression "Irish people"? That they have Irish passport? I don't think that acquiring passport makes anyone expert in pronunciation and enables to make judgements on what is acceptable as CORRECT pronunciation and what is not. Ethnicity? - funny point indeed - descendants of invading Vikings and English esquires should be "trend-setters" for correct pronunciation of few remaining Gaels? ;-) You must be joking, right?

quote:

descendants of invading Vikings and English esquires should be "trend-setters" for correct pronunciation of few remaining Gaels? ;-) You must be joking, right?

Why do all these converstions have to decend to such lows?

I never mentioned anything about trend-setting, and to suggest that I did is a lie.

All I've communicated is that I speak Irish a little different to everyone else in the Gaeltacht, but that I'm not a foreigner -- I'm as Irish as the rest of you, be it by nationatily, citizenship, ethinicity, blood, culture.

All I want to do is speak Gaeilge. Because I like it. I think it's a beautiful language with lots of nifty little elaborate features. It would be perverted for me to adopt an accent of one of the other provinces every time an Irish word came out of my mouth, so I won't. I'll listen to native speakers, and then I'll just let the sounds flow out naturally. If "then" comes out naturally as "den", then "then" comes out naturally as "den", end of story.

I don't want to keep flogging a dead horse here, so I'll just re-iterate my end point:

I'm not a foreigner. I don't speak Irish with a foreigner's accent. I speak Irish with a Dublin accent. I'm Irish and I take claim to the Irish language, and so I take issue with those who label my pronunciation as "incorrect" or "foreign".

Can I say that there is a degree of 'calling to authority' here. As a country person, I have no time for the pretensions of the capital, nor do I see an ugly rundown British city as any sort of exemplar, linguistically, nor socially. It has a very ambigious position historically, and should never been given any credence.

As the 'dart' accent, and even culture, continues to spread thru Ireland, Irish people are beginning to enunciate their dental fricatives (th's). Heaven knows what sort of a pig's ear will be made out of English in the future, never mind Irish, as many in the (ever expanding) socio-linguistic complex that is 'Foxrock' cannot utilise standard Hiberno-English nor British grammar. They think accent is all there is to good English, making for a complete parody. Future english: U níd mre d@n @n aksent. irish: on wil m'vlas g'ma?

>I'm from Dublin, the capital of Ireland. Fullstop.

Dublin is not a Gaeltacht. You have a Dublin-English accent when you speak Irish. English is not the same language as Irish. So you have a foreign (non-Gaelic) accent when speaking Irish. Fullstop.

How many dialects died way back when? so then won't new ones be born in the future? it is no wonder so few people want to learn the language correctly, when in this microcosm we have the same root arguments- I am better than you attitude. Dublin like it or leave it Is the Capitol of Ireland (and the people who live there are Irish) and I do believe its accent can become another dialect of the language so lets encourage that... more learners can secure the fate of the language.

>so then won't new ones be born in the future?

There will be new ones out of the Gaeltacht dialects maybe. Dublin Irish isn’t a dialect, it’s Gaeilg mhícheart.

>it is no wonder so few people want to learn the >language correctly, when in this microcosm we have the >same root arguments- I am better than you attitude.

Cuireann tú a’ gáire mé.

>Dublin like it or leave it Is the Capitol of Ireland >(and the people who live there are Irish)

right: they aren’t native Irish speakers. If Irish people speak Irish, it doesn’t mean they are native speakers - see the difference?

>and I do believe its accent can become another dialect >of the language so lets encourage that... more learners >can secure the fate of the language.

If they learn proper Irish. If they learn nonsense things and speak in a nonsense way, caithfear bheith in amhras maidir le todhchaí na teangtha.

Okay well that's me done with this conversation.

Lughaidh, your attitude is appalling and I've no interest in trying to rationalise with you.

Last time I checked, an Irish born, English speaking person was "less foreign" than a French born, French speaking immigrant, no? I sink so.

Long story short, if I really had my heart set on being a Gaeilgeoir, I'd pack my bags, look in the classifieds and get me a nice apartment and handy job out there... but at the moment my interest is aroused by different scenery.

>Last time I checked, an Irish born, English speaking >person was "less foreign" than a French born, French >speaking immigrant

In what point of view?

lots of 'angst' on the site recently.
Tá laetheannta saoire air cúpla duine sílim, mise freisin.
As they say on a certain sports goods company ad, "just do it"

"Labhair an teanga", sin é, gan smaoineamh ar 'accent, dialect, phonemes, average jaw laxity, degree of pharyngeal tension and resonance, grammar, glides, morphology, where you're from, where you're not from....

Slán

Dublin is in Ireland. A Dublin accent is under the umbrella of "Irish accents". Speaking Irish with a Dublin accent is the way people from Dublin naturally talk. Speaking Irish with a Dublin accent is speaking it with an Irish accent. As long as people understand you, it doesn't matter. I'm not better than you. You're not better than me.

>Tá laetheannta saoire air cúpla duine sílim<

self correction, I think I should have written
Tá laetheannta saoire ó (need)cúpla duine sílim

I really do need a holiday:-)

>Dublin is in Ireland. A Dublin accent is under the >umbrella of "Irish accents". Speaking Irish with a >Dublin accent is the way people from Dublin naturally >talk.

Dubliners don't naturally speak Irish, that's the point. Almost every Dubliner family only speak English for generations.

>Speaking Irish with a Dublin accent is speaking >it with an Irish accent.

With an English-speaker accent, not with a Gaelic accent, that's the problem.

>As long as people understand you, it doesn't matter.

It does if you really want to speak proper Irish. If you don't care for Irish syntax, Irish pronounciation, Irish vocabulary, Irish morphology and Irish idioms, it means you don't care for the Irish language, so just speak English.

quote:

I'm not better than you. You're not better than me.

That about sums it up for me. I think it's hilarious to suggest that Dubliners don't speak good Irish. Here in the States, we have literally dozens of ways to speak good English. I would "nevah dink dat my New Joisey aksent is bettah den anyone elses." And I'm sure that somebody from another part of the U.S. would feel the same about their particular way of speakin' English.

We do, of course, have a standard written form of English, which is what has been implemented in Ireland with Irish.

quote:

Variety is the spice of life

I think this holds true for the Irish language also.

Lughaidh I want to ask you how many people do you actually know in BAC with whom you have had conversations with? also have you visited all the gaelscoils to form a true opinion, what are the facts to back up your assumptions.

This topic has been well covered and will be closed at 12:00 AM EDT, 5:00 AM IST.

Thanks to all for remaining civil.

Caoimhín

>it means you don't care for the Irish language, so just speak English.

oh Lughaidh a chara, you're undoing all the good you have contributed to this site

tá brón orm:-(