hi all, anyone willing to take a crack at 'he evicted'?

dhíshealbhaigh sé

given the limitations of not using IPA with an audience from around the world, my guess would be something like JEE:Lah or JEE:Lwah with the sh=h and bh=w allowing the vowels to glide over them, or at most providing 'speed bumps'.

Gee Hal Vig Shay

According to Fócloir Póca,

dhíshealbhaigh is pronounced
'g´i:ֽhaləvi:
yee-hal-eh-vee

in the core dialect (lárchanúint), with primary emphasis on the first syllable and a secondary emphasis on the second syllable. I guess the secondary emphasis causes the second vowel to pronounced as a short 'a' instead of a schwa. Note the schwa insertion between the 'l' and the 'bh.

I think Fear's pronunciation would most likely come from a Munster speaker, where pronouncing final -igh as -ig is typical. I think a Donegal speaker might pronounce it as

'g´i:ֽhaləvi:g´
yee-hal-eh-vee-yeh

I suspect the Connacht speaker would pronounce it something close to the core dialect pronunciation.

(Message edited by lúcas on July 25, 2005)

dhíshealbhaigh sé

>Gee Hal Vig Shay

No, slender dh- is always pronounced as a y-sound. And the -idh or -igh are never pronounced -ig before subject pronouns like mé, tú, sé, sí, muid, sibh, siad, but as a schwa. It _is_ pronounced -ig in Munster before other subjects.

>According to Fócloir Póca,
>dhíshealbhaigh is pronounced
>'g´i:ֽhaləvi:
>yee-hal-eh-vee

Must be remembered that broad v in the Foclóir Póca phonology transcriptions means w-sound...

>I think Fear's pronunciation would most likely come >from a Munster speaker, where pronouncing final -igh >as -ig is typical. I think a Donegal speaker might >pronounce it as
>'g´i:ֽhaləvi:g´
>yee-hal-eh-vee-yeh

No: yee-hah-luh-wuh shaa.

>I suspect the Connacht speaker would pronounce it >something close to the core dialect pronunciation.

Except that final -igh and -idh are pronounced as a schwa in Connemara.


Final verbal -(a)idh and -(a)igh are always pronounced as schwa, in all dialects, when the following word is mé, tú, sé, sí, muid, sinn, sibh, siad, mise etc as subjects of the verb.


So i'd say (according to my books on dialects):

Munster: yee-hah-luh-vuh shay (-ay without the y-glide at the end)

Connemara: yee-hah-luh-wuh shay (-ay without the y-glide at the end)


Donegal: yee-hah-luh-wuh shaa

quote:

So i'd say (according to my books on dialects):

Munster: yee-hah-luh-vuh shay (-ay without the y-glide at the end)

Connemara: yee-hah-luh-wuh shay (-ay without the y-glide at the end)


Donegal: yee-hah-luh-wuh shaa

Would I be pretentious to say that I'm a Dublin speaker of Irish and that Dubliners still pronounce the "igh" and the end of verbs, even if followed by "shay"?

Smaoinigh shay = Smeen ig shay
Cheannaigh Shay = Qean ig shay

It’s a tricky question as usual as far as Irish phonetics is concerned. And I’d like you to expand on it. Would anyone care to explain?

seasMHach [s’æ:su:x] (I believe is derived from seasamh [s’æ:s@])
slachtMHar [sla:xt@r]
talMHaíocht [ta:li:@xt] (from talamh [ta:l@])
ciallMHar [k’i:@lw@r]

And maraigh < marbh, as it used to be spelt marBHuigh (if I’m not mistaken)

Except for “talmhaíocht” transcription for Cois Fhairrge is taken from O Siadhail. I’m especially interested in Connemara Irish, but information on the other dialects is also welcome.
Thanks,
Peter

>Would I be pretentious to say that I'm a Dublin speaker >of Irish and that Dubliners still pronounce the "igh" >and the end of verbs, even if followed by "shay"?

>Smaoinigh shay = Smeen ig shay
>Cheannaigh Shay = Qean ig shay

People who pronounce like that aren't native speakers, that's all. You won't find any Gaeltacht native speaker
who'd pronounce like that.
If you knew how most French people pronounce English... :-D example: "I think" pronounced as "I sink", and so on.

>seasMHach [s’æ:su:x] (I believe is derived from seasamh >[s’æ:s@])
>slachtMHar [sla:xt@r]
>talMHaíocht [ta:li:@xt] (from talamh [ta:l@])
>ciallMHar [k’i:@lw@r]

That reminds me that Connemara speakers may pronounce dhíshealbhaigh sé as /y'i:halu: s'e:/, yee-hah-loo shay... But it has to be confirmed by a native Connemara speaker.

What happens here in Seattle is that a mixed group of speakers, with different dialect backgrounds, gets together for "caife agus comhrá" at a bookstore/coffehouse. We accomodate each other by not overdoing the dialect. In essence, that means sticking closer to "standard" or "spelling" pronunciations. Instead of saying something like /ku:lod@r/, I'll pronounce "comhluadar" as it is spelled, /kolu:@d@ar/. And so on. The point is to communicate, not promote a dialect.

I was just answering the question...

"If you knew how most French people pronounce English... :-D example: "I think" pronounced as "I sink", and so on."

Jees, is it really that bad? Would it be even worse if a non-native attempted the accent of one of the Gaeltachts?

>Jees, is it really that bad?

and even worse !

>Would it be even worse if >a non-native attempted the accent of one of the >Gaeltachts?

I've not understood your question.

>Would it be even worse if >a non-native attempted the accent of one of the >Gaeltachts?


put it this way (as it was put to me by one of my teachers): what would happen if a european learned an american dialect and then tried to use it in it's native habitat? Keep in mind that any secondary learning of a language is going to be imperfect...

Say he (a german or a frenchman or a swede) went to Harlem and attempted to imitate the dialect there? or Texas? or Jersey City? At best he runs the likelihood of offending the natives by having them think he's making fun of the way they speak...at worst they might find him floating in the Hudson River.

i've been told that is particularly the case in connemarra, where they feel they have a 'country accent' and can be self-conscious of it at times.

a student is a student and it's best not to aspire to the pretension of being anything else. learning a particular dialect without a) an intention of living there or b) being a linguist studying that dialect is of questionable usefulness.

that having been said, students should aspire to learn the language to the best of their ability given their circumstances (ie - immersion is good, but not all can manage that). students shouldn't 'settle' for bad grammar or sloppy pronunciation, but look at this thread to see the fallacy of trying to teach pronunciation 'as it is in the gaeltacht'...which one? which area of that one? why that one? etc etc...having a 'standard' for teaching purposes outside the gaeltacht areas (either the current one or a new standard) will aid in student comprehension, determination of level and the overall quality of what comes out of the non-gaeltacht areas...

I have a feeling, probably like a lot of other Irish people who were taught the language at school, that I "know" how to pronounce Irish correctly. My Irish pronunciation developed over the course of 14 years of school and beyond, being corrected and improved by teachers along the way, so it is somewhat ingrained now. As an Irish person, if not a native speaker, I feel I have something of an entitlement to declare that my Irish pronunciation is a legitimate one. Yes, I usually pronounce the "igh" in "Cheannaigh", etc. and the "g" in "ag dul", etc. because that's what I was taught for over a decade, as were all my peers!

Of couse, I don't condone inconsistent pronunciation, ignorning séimhiú and urú, or not distinguishing between bó and beo, lón and leon, for example.

I concur with Davidoc in saying that I have a legitimate pronunciation. I speak the Dublin dialect of Irish -- Irish influenced heavily by a Dublin accent.

It helps if there are natives teaching, so one pronounces eireaball ('tail') as /rub@l/ or /rub@L/ or /Rub@l/ not /er'@b@l/ or 'eyre-bal'

"As an Irish person, if not a native speaker, I feel I have something of an entitlement to declare that my Irish pronunciation is a legitimate one".

I think school leaves one with that fantasy. Of course, goverment schools generally do leave you with a consistant grammar and pronounciation, regardless of its nativity. The same cannot be said of many gaelscoilleanna tho, which is a shame.

Gaelscoileanna are government schools. There are few if any private primary schools in Ireland (and few secondary Irish medium schools). And most teachers in Gaelscoileanna are either from the Gaeltacht, or fluent speakers, unlike english medium schools.

"Gaelscoilis" is not due to the teachers, but to the fact that less than 10% of pupils come from homes where Irish is a/the language of the family.

I would have to agree with Davidoc also when he says, "as an Irish person, if not a native speaker, I feel I have something of an entitlement to declare that my Irish pronunciation is a legitimate one". I mean is it really possible that for 14 years in school (in Munster) that my classmates and I were incorrectly taught to pronounce the aigh and igh at the end of Cheannaigh me and Smaoinigh se? And what's all this about NOT pronouncing the g in ag dul??

Surely not all my Irish language teachers were mistaken, were they?

"I concur with Davidoc in saying that I have a legitimate pronunciation. I speak the Dublin dialect of Irish -- Irish influenced heavily by a Dublin accent."


as long as you can be understood by irish speakers outside dublin (which i suspect you can), then I concur as well.

when I first started learning, I was very anti-english. wrote only in the seancló and whenever there were opportunities to pick a 'more irish' (eg 'less english') way of phrasing something i used it.

slowly tho, i've come to the realization (esp. after seeing two of the three main gaeltachts) that at this point english has been allowed to become too powerful an institution in ireland. the youth, while many have found a love of the language alien to their parents, are eager to shed ireland's rural image.

people need to have a sense of ownership of the langauge if it's going to survive. they need to feel it's "their" language by birthright, and something worth learning and preserving.

As I stated on another thread, english is to irish today what norman french was to english in 1066 - and we can expect the same scale of influence and change. if the saxons decided that they were going to fight all french influences and not allow some hodgepodge language (the english of shakespeare) to replace or 'kill' their beloved saxon english it all would've died out and the UK would be french speaking today.

Irish is in a similar position. to prohibit all bearlacas intrusion or urban pronunciation (or even moderate english influence on grammar) would be to exclude the largest populations in what is a small country, effectively ensuring that the language dies in short order.

to survive, i really think you can expect the following:
1) a school standard for pronunciation (eg - all learners of english in the US learn American Standard English, even though it is not actually reflective of any real life dialect) based on, intelligable to, but distinct from the actual gaeltact dialects
2) bearlacas slang/common expressions
3) the possibility of gender going away...or the great possibility of a simplification of the process
4) development of a simple, non-question-specific yes/no. as has been stated elsewhere, some of these have popped up already, but being that the students outnumber the natives i think in 50 years or so it will settle down to being tá/níl

to reject all change and influence that doesn't come from the gaeltacht is to reinforce the language's rural, quaint image that's caused it so much trouble in the past. Irish needs to show itself as a dynamic, up-to-date, living language capable of all the commerce and utility on the island of ireland that english is. The language needs to work on being used country-wide in a truly bilingual society (english to the rest of the world, gaeilge among themselves)...

"Gaelscoileanna are government schools".

Sorry, I mean gaelscoileanna vs. normal schools. I know they get funding too.

"Surely not all my Irish language teachers were mistaken, were they?"

Well as you know, Irish servants of the state carry out their function with the utmost propriety, giving their best, and with a heart-warming goodwill that makes you proud to give them your tax euro.

I cannot continence the possibility of ignorance, arrogance and duplicity among them. Nor can I imagine a teacher coming in to class late, with alcohol on them, or with a dubious sexual record.

Their fine performances are a badge of the states quality in all areas, having received the highest training (in pork-barrel politics) and appointment with no prior qualifications at the local TDs request, circa 1973.

Ar smaoinigh tú?

It seems that you have a very negative and cynical view of our teachers, Robert, and indeed of our entire civil service in general. I think you do a massive dis-service to those in the system that have actually worked tirelessly for meagre award for a long number of years. I happen to have the utmost respect for many of my Irish language teachers in school and before anyone asks, yes one of those teachers was a native speaker and no, he is not one of those for whom I have the utmost respect as although he could speak flent "native" Irish he had absolutely no idea how to pass it on to a crowd of teenage English speaking lads in a classroom. To get back to your comments though, I would suggest that blatant sarchasim is no substitute for an honest discussion/debate. Sure I accept that many of us have legitimate grievances with the Irish Civil Service and some seriously deficient teachers but my point was that I am amazed that none of my Irish teachers thought it necessary to teach students in my school proper pronunciation of Cheannaigh and Smaoinigh as above. I would suggest that the reason for this may lie not in their inability to speak the language properly but because the "standard", or at least the Munster standard, doesn't require it. And this being so, I repeat what Davidoc said above this being, "as an Irish person, if not a native speaker, I feel I have something of an entitlement to declare that my Irish pronunciation is a legitimate one" - especially when my Irish pronunciation is based upon 14 years of Irish Language Education in an Irish School in Munster by Irish language teachers at least one of whom was a native Irish speaker - none of whom I might add were appointed "with no prior qualifications at the local TD's request, circa 1973". Finally, we can write all day about our grievances with the past, but it is only in contemplating the demands of the future that the progression of Irish in this country will be in any way effected. In this regard, I agree entirely with the projections as set out by Antaine above, though I find the whole English/French Norman comparison of lesser significance. I think the time has come to stop treating the Irish as spoken by native speakers as some form of immutable sacred language, completely illusive to the majority of English speakers on this island, unless they somehow pack up all their belongings, leave their homes, jobs and families and set up a new life in a Gaeltacht area and hang on to each and every word that is uttered from a native speaker's mouth until such time as they find the Holy Grail of speaking Irish like a blueblood Gaeltacht native with no English speaking ancestory among his 8 greatgrandparents and an ability to list off lists of declensions and cases understood only by the elite few (no offence intended to Lugaidh, Aonghus et al who are clearly legitmate experts in their linguistic fields).

In essence, I'm getting tired of elitist Irish speakers propogating the correct pronunciation of Ulster that and Munster this when at the end of the day, the Irish taught in all our schools is of a decent enough standard such that if every Irish person could attain a decent Honours level standard at Leaving Cert. stage (which I admit does require better teaching skills and a more modern interesting approach) then there would be many more citizens in this country with an ability to use Irish in their everyday lives and from this, and only at that stage, could perhaps one make the leap upwards to the lofty heights of perfectly pronounced Irish, flawless in every grammatical way imaginable a la the Gaeltacht native speakers as exounded by many on this site.

>Of course, goverment schools generally do leave you >with a consistant grammar and pronounciation, >regardless of its nativity.

I don't think so. I've heard loads of teenagers, after their Leaving, that weren't able to make any sentence in Irish except some of those they've learnt by heart.

>At best he runs the likelihood of offending the natives >by having them think he's making fun of the way they >speak

When i go to Donegal Gaeltacht i speak in Donegal Irish an nobody thinks i'm making fun of them.

>learning a particular dialect without a) an intention >of living there or b) being a linguist studying that >dialect is of questionable usefulness.

No, it's just being serious and trying to learn to speak as well as a native speaker does. No native speaker speaks Standard Irish, so...

>I usually pronounce the "igh" in "Cheannaigh", etc. and >the "g" in "ag dul", etc. because that's what I was >taught for over a decade, as were all my peers!

what a pity. And you've never heard any native speaker during a decade?

>I concur with Davidoc in saying that I have a >legitimate pronunciation. I speak the Dublin dialect of >Irish -- Irish influenced heavily by a Dublin accent.

"Dublin irish" isn't a native dialect, so it can't be a model.

>And most teachers in Gaelscoileanna are either from the >Gaeltacht, or fluent speakers, unlike english medium >schools.

Are you sure of that?

>I mean is it really possible that for 14 years in >school (in Munster) that my classmates and I were >incorrectly taught to pronounce the aigh and igh at the >end of Cheannaigh me and Smaoinigh se? And what's all >this about NOT pronouncing the g in ag dul??

Yes it is possible because you do. Now, have a look at books about native dialects, like An Teanga Bheo Corca Dhuibhne/Conamara/Tír Chonaill/Chléire, and tell me where you find any "-igh sé" pronounced like /ig' s'e:/.

>Surely not all my Irish language teachers were >mistaken, were they?

If they all told you to pronounce like that, they were.

>and only at that stage, could perhaps one make the leap >upwards to the lofty heights of perfectly pronounced >Irish,

Hard to change your pronunciation when you 've been pronouncing badly during decades... It's better to learn well from the beginning.

">At best he runs the likelihood of offending the natives >by having them think he's making fun of the way they >speak

When i go to Donegal Gaeltacht i speak in Donegal Irish an nobody thinks i'm making fun of them.

>learning a particular dialect without a) an intention >of living there or b) being a linguist studying that >dialect is of questionable usefulness.

No, it's just being serious and trying to learn to speak as well as a native speaker does. No native speaker speaks Standard Irish, so... "

two things - people who know you will know you're not trying to make fun of them...and it was with connemarra I was warned about that

secondly, "No native speaker speaks Standard Irish, so..." no native speaker of any language speaks it's standard, yet it remains (in all languages) that which is taught (its existence is itself a teaching tool).

as a foreigner in the US you couldn't take a class in alabama english if you wanted to...there is no such thing. Taking a french class? you'll be learning 'parisian' french which is no doubt markedly different from what's *actually* spoken in paris (more like the official rules from the académie française). learners of spanish learn 'castillan' even though it is mexican, puerto rican, dominican or cuban spanish that would be of any use to an american in the US.

a standard will also allow for a student to go from teacher to teacher as he develops without having to re-learn pronunciation and idiom. One of the most confusing things for me is having to learn four pronunciation systems at the same time and keep switching them depending on what teacher I was faced with that term.

>two things - people who know you will know you're not >trying to make fun of them...and it was with connemarra >I was warned about that

Most people in Donegal Gaeltacht don't know me. And still, they don't seem to think i'm making fun of them. They answer me in Irish.

>secondly, "No native speaker speaks Standard Irish, >so..." no native speaker of any language speaks it's >standard, yet it remains (in all languages) that which >is taught (its existence is itself a teaching tool).

No native speaker only speaks standard Irish. For me, there's no point to have any standard in languages except in order to write official texts. Especially in minorities languages. Creating a standard language out of many dialects make people think they all speak badly because they don't speak exactly the standard form. One should give confidence to native speakers in their own language, not to make them believe they all speak in a wrong way.

>as a foreigner in the US you couldn't take a class in >alabama english if you wanted to...there is no such >thing.

US standard English is not a created language, ar feadh m'eolais, there are people who have it as mothertongue (at least it's true for standard UK english). Who has standard irish as mothertongue? Nobody because it's a constructed language based on many dialects blended together.

>Taking a french class? you'll be learning 'parisian' >french which is no doubt markedly different from what's >*actually* spoken in paris (more like the official >rules from the académie française).

depends on whose French. There are plenty of people who speak "standard" french and who have it as mothertongue.

>learners of spanish learn 'castillan' even though it is >mexican, puerto rican, dominican or cuban spanish that >would be of any use to an american in the US.

castillan is a natural language as well.

>a standard will also allow for a student to go from >teacher to teacher as he develops without having to re->learn pronunciation and idiom.

Why re-learn? I've got many French teachers and after, many Irish teachers, I never had to change my pronunciation, and i never did.

>One of the most confusing things for me is having to >learn four pronunciation systems at the same time and >keep switching them depending on what teacher I was >faced with that term.

Why don't you always stick to the dialect you've chosen? I don't think your teachers will kill you... Just tell them you've learnt a different dialect. They shouldn't criticize you, since you're trying to speak as native speakers do...

I've just read through this thread and cannot understand why people just can't except that every area of Ireland is different. Coming from Manchester I fully understand about the different accents (and thats how I see the different dialects). I except that all dialects are correct as long as they are being used. If I was to say that my way of speaking was correct and all others were wrong how would that make me look.

I've been to Ireland four times and my experience in Connemara was far from traumatic. I'm not a fluent speaker but when i enter the gaeltacht I make a point td use as much Irish as I can. No one has ever come up to me and expressed their displeasure in the way I pronounce my Irish. The same is true of the Donegal area, on the contrary most people express their utmost pleasure in knowing that an American (originally from England) is making an effort to use their language.

Enought of what area has the best Irish. Labhair Gealge to the best of your ability and be done with this dialect battle.

Scríobh Lughaidh (ag freagairt ormsa)

quote:

>And most teachers in Gaelscoileanna are either from the >Gaeltacht, or fluent speakers, unlike english medium >schools.

Are you sure of that?

Táim. Ar a laghad, sin an taithí atá agam.
Yes. That is my experience. I have two sons in a Gaelscoil, and I know many teachers.

(Message edited by aonghus on July 28, 2005)

Cad é 'n rud "cainteoir líofa" de réir do bharúlasa? Os rud é go n-abrann tusa ’n t-am ar fad gur cainteoir dúchais thú, bhuel tá eagla orm nach ionann "cainteoir líofa" agat agus "cainteoir líofa" agam féin... Más múinteoirí na daoiní a labhras do dhálta féin...

Ná bac le do sheanphort, a bhfuil freagraí tugtha ar go minic cheana, ag daoine seachas mé fhéin.

Maidir liomsa -- agus ag caint faoin mBéarla atá mé anois -- is fearr liom a bheith ag éisteacht le "cainteoir líofa" ná le "cainteoir dúchais" lá ar bith den tseachtain! Tá daoine ann, agus a lán acu, a fuair a gcuid Béarla ar scoil agus a bhaineann úsáid níos fearr as ná a lán daoine a fuair "leis an mbainne" é.

Chaith mé dinnéar le cúpla cara an tseachtain seo caite. Tháinig siad go Seattle ó Chardiff dhá bhliain ó shin. Cainteoir dúchais is ea Crispin (le hainm mar sin, cad eile!?) a rugadh i Sasana agus a tógadh ansin agus san Afraic Theas. Cainteoir dúchais Schwyzertüütsch is ea Jürg. Tá céimeanna ollscoile acu beirt. Bottom line: is fearr liom Béarla Jürg. Tá blas "idirnáisiúnta" aige atá an-soilléir, bíonn an focal ceart aige i gcónaí, agus tá a chuid Béarla saor ó na "forbairtí" ("Like, he goes 'Who's she?', and I'm like 'You're kidding!...") a chloisim chuile áit anseo ó na cainteoirí dúchais. Tá Béarla Chrispin an-líofa, gan dabht dá laghad, ach ní bhíonn sé chomh cúramach leis, sin an méid.

"Enough of what area has the best Irish. Labhair Gaeilge to the best of your ability and be done with this dialect battle".

This was not an argument on dialect. An accent alone is not a dialect. Nor was it an aguement on which area has the best Irish. Dublin Irish is not Irish, fair and simple. It’s a creole.

"a standard will also allow for a student to go from teacher to teacher as he develops without having to re-learn pronunciation and idiom".

I agree with Antaine that a standard is needed. I would not presume to tell a native how to speak, or devalue their speech, but any standard, in my view, should be as complex as a natural dialect.

"In essence, I'm getting tired of elitist Irish speakers propagating the correct pronunciation of Ulster that and Munster". "I think you do a massive dis-service to those in the system that have actually worked tirelessly for meagre award for a long number of years".

Teachers are in a very difficult position, I agree. Yes I was a little arrogant in my appraisal of them in general. However, they did go for those jobs. It is not my fault the system has no value on them, or that Irish society devalues Gaeilge. I recall cigarettes been smoked in my Irish class...

"our entire civil service in general"

Well they are arrogant, underperforming, incompetant. Its no conspiracy theory!

"I find the whole English/French Norman comparison of lesser significance".

I did not push it, it was others. I am not aware of Anglo-Saxon development to any degree, so was unhappy with the parallels. I suppose the parallels were social and historic.

I don't promulgate a dialect pronunciation. I use a central set of classical Irish phonemes with the newer fritaves and affricatives to allow for the evolution that has occurred. The sounds are a consistent set complied by the late Colm Ó hUllachain and are useful for broad transcription. I did not design Irish, so I will let its structure decide.

"stop treating the Irish as spoken by native speakers as some form of immutable sacred language, completely illusive to the majority of English speakers on this island"

It is not immutable, only Irish as handed down thru history.. The 'problem' with learners is the same as when English speakers try to learn French or any other tongue. People feel that if they open their mouth’s and make any sound, that that will do. It is not acceptable in French or English, nor Irish. To say that Irish cannot be spoken correctly is a) due to ignorance of language structure b) arrogance as if to say I can do what I like, c) lack of imagination d) a rationalisation of laziness

Dennis,
love never built a wall...and they have a larger pool of cultural resourses to hone their English, learn the idioms, inhale the ambience of where its at etc etc, that one does in Irish.

Avant garde-ness among a small pool of speakers in a minor langauge can depreciate the language as the inovations come from the majority tongue, not from the native idiom itself.

"I did not push it, it was others. I am not aware of Anglo-Saxon development to any degree, so was unhappy with the parallels. I suppose the parallels were social and historic. "

I am curious, what would be the closest parallel from the past, that would allow us to see the entire effect of the situation?

Irish is currently awash in english. english grammar, idiom, vocabulary and more. it's everywhere, even in the gaeltacht - and it isn't going away anytime soon. Has this ever happened to a language more recent than anglo-saxon where the original language survived at all? What was the effect of the "bully" language on it 100 or 500 years later?

it might be too short a time, or too great a population base in the original language, but what about the effects on minority languages in the soviet union regarding their contact with russification? what about native american languages? anybody have a better one than norman/anglosaxon? I only selected that as an example because it represented a vast, invasive, foreign-inspired alteration to the original language, yet was considered an "evolution" of english (middle english) and not a "creole" of french

"To say that Irish cannot be spoken correctly is a) due to ignorance of language structure b) arrogance as if to say I can do what I like, c) lack of imagination d) a rationalisation of laziness"

true, to say it "cannot," but living languages evolve through adoption of new conventions etc through time. one cannot expect that a language be near-drowned in english and remain unchanged by the experience.

and (i'll beat you to the punch) it is also true that typically those new conventions come from the native speakers of the language - but irish is anything but typical. look at the numbers of those who claim irish on the census vs gaeltacht residents vs gaeltacht residents who actually do use the language. irish is in a unique (and unenviable) position where the learners outnumber the natives twice over (at least). the usual paradigm of the cradle-to-grave speakers setting the rules the students learn may not apply as much as you're used to for healthier languages.

The creation of modern ideas of grammar and education have taken language out of the hands of the community and placed it in the hands of a minority of academics. in short, those who design the curricula are the ones who alter languages today, at least what's being taught (and with more learners than speakers, well, you do the math). and it isn't just schools...tv and radio (as well as publications) are part of it, too. where is the language that's actually being listened to by the youth coming from?

I would like to see a more traditional approach, but it's a fine line between insisting on quality and disenfranchising a generation of potential speakers. irish people need to feel this is *their* language in a very real and personal sense. if they feel it's the language of history or of the gaeltacht, there will be little practical motivation for learning it.

we're here because, in a sense, we're all romantics. the average person, however, does not care much for anything that does not have an immediate practical application to their lives...at least not caring enough about something that requires as much time and effort as a second language.

that is the gap that must be bridged.

>true, to say it "cannot," but living languages evolve >through adoption of new conventions etc through time. >one cannot expect that a language be near-drowned in >english and remain unchanged by the experience.

It changes because native speakers speak English as well. For example, in Donegal, slender t has become an affricate sounding like english "ch" in the speech of younger speakers. I don't criticize that: it's normal. I criticize learners who claim they speak well even if they do mistakes and even if they don't master even the basics of the language, and that a language has to evolve and that the way they (try to) speak should become the standard way. Sorry, the language naturally evolves in the Gaeltacht, what happens in Dublin has nothin in common with it.

>Maidir liomsa -- agus ag caint faoin mBéarla atá mé >anois -- is fearr liom a bheith ag éisteacht >le "cainteoir líofa" ná le "cainteoir dúchais" lá ar >bith den tseachtain! Tá daoine ann, agus a lán acu, a >fuair a gcuid Béarla ar scoil agus a bhaineann úsáid >níos fearr as ná a lán daoine a fuair "leis an mbainne" >é.

Nuair a chluinimse duine nach bhfuil ábalta abairt cheart ar bith a ráidht ó thaobh na fuaimníochta, na gramadaí agus na comhréire, cuireann sé isteach orm agus i ndiaidh tamailt is deacair liom tuigbheáil cad é ’tá sé ’ráidht siocair nach gcluineann mo chluasa ach na meancógaí a ghníos sé. Cainteoir líofa duine nach ndéanann deich meancóg in achan abairt, agus a ghníos a dhícheall le fuaimniú i gceart, fiú munab fhuil sé foirfe. Ach tá daoiní ann a deireas go bhfuil siad líofa (nó gur cainteoirí dúchais iad féin) agus nach bhfuil ábalta abairt ar bith a ráidht gan meancóg nó dhó ar a laghad.

An duine a bhfuil dúil aige i dteangaí, caithfidh sé meas a bheith aige uirthi, agus a dhícheall a dhéanamh le labhairt a chosúla le cainteoir dúchais agus is féidir.

Well, if you want your perfect Gaeltacht-Irish only, then you'll be looking at a dead language in no time. Standard Irish is what people learn, it's what I've learned and what many others have learned, and now after all the work and determination to learn our native language, you're telling us we're not speaking Irish and have no right to call ourselves Irish speakers? There's a new dialect boyos, Standard Irish, so get used to it. Whether or not it was right to create is kind of beside the point anois, the point is it's here and there are people who speak it in their homes and who rear their children through it. After all this work etc. you're now going to look down your noses at them and say they're not Irish speakers at all? Of course they are. There's nothing wrong with dialectual differences, but if you only want that Irish spoken, then there'll be no Irish spoken. Standard Irish is what's taught and what everyone outside the Gaeltacht uses, to dismiss them all is suicide.

At the end of the day you'll always have pompous pretentious people who just plain aren't nice. I'll converse with anyone whom I like, regardless of their skin colour, gender, weight, height, age, martial status, pregnancy, disibility, disfigurement. Throw "accent" in with that too.

If I go to a Gaeltacht area (any Gaeltacht area), and some person looks down their nose at me because of how I'm speaking, then they can expect me to take offence and make my thoughts known. Such people have no place in today's expanding world. Cultures are reaching out and interacting with each other. There's some of them that aren't; last time I checked, they were at war.

"There's a new dialect boyos, Standard Irish"

I does not exist, by any fair and equitable means of analysis.

Government publications have one sort of 'Irish'

People at home in the Galltacht have another.

Anyone who gets together in other countries and learns out of books, makes up another again.

"Standard Irish is what's taught and what everyone outside the Gaeltacht uses"

No, what is taught outside the gaeltacht is an unholy mixture of what-your-having-yourself. The caighdeán only specified phonemes, lexicon, and grammar. Since major elements of the language were not specified, every learner adds his or her own bits to compensate. This is not an arguement over good or bad, but simply stating that it is been made up as one goes along. I mean look at TEFL, a small training period and off you go. Langauge training is never taken seriously.

"anything that does not have an immediate practical application to their lives..."

I would add that it is a fantasy of our age that everything must be socially derived or fashionable. People drop out of college, because their physics course is not 'cool' in the way they thought. I mean, atoms don't go to bars, molecules have never got drunk... Projecting a need for fun and 'craic' into every domain is crazy. Yet if it were not for physicists, our mobile phones would never have been invented.

Learning is not a social enterprise. There is nothing social about staying indoors to study for a month, but a minority language cannot be learned from speaking it to other learners. If you watch 'Paisean Faisean' ar an TF4, you can hear fluent Dublin speakers. Sometimes they stall in mid-flight due to lacking a requisite tense or mood. It seems as if the tense system is simpler than either English or Irish. How is that an improvment? Remember Irish is naturally better suited to science than English, been a more specific lanaguage. Simplifying it leaves anything more than a chat at a disadvantage.

quote:

If you watch 'Paisean Faisean' ar an TF4, you can hear fluent Dublin speakers. Sometimes they stall in mid-flight due to lacking a requisite tense or mood.

Please elaborate on this. I've never had any difficulty with any sort of lack of tense or mood.

I wouldn't say that! = Ní déarfainn é sin!
Oh, I'd love a piece of that cake! = Ó, b'aoibhinn liom giota den cháca sin!
When I was a child, I wouldn't eat my dinner = Agus mé i mo pháiste, ní ithinn mo dhinnéar.
I closed the door = Dhúnas an doras
I cut the grass = Bearraim an féar
I'll close the window = Dúnfaidh mé an fhuinneog
I used to swim = Shnámhainn
I'd like to dance = Ba mhaith liom rince
Have a good day = Go raibh lá maith agat
Good luck = Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat
Pick it up! = Pioc suas é!
Answer the question! = Freagair an cheist!
He has broken the window = Tá an fhuinneog briste aige
I've sold my business = Tá mo ghnó díolta agam

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on July 29, 2005)

>I closed the door = Dhúnas an doras

That’s not standard Irish, it’s Munster one.

>Pick it up! = Pioc suas é!

Béarla. Níl sé le fáil i bhfoclóir Uí Dhónaill ná i gCollins Gem ná i bhfoclóir De Bhaldraithe. To pick up = tógáil. Anyway when you pick something up from the ground, it is "up" because you normally are above it. No need of "suas" in Irish.

A Robárd,
Standard Irish exists, people outside the Gaeltacht aren't all ignorant phillistines with no respect for Irish, sitting around doing their best to mess up the language for their amusmant. There might be a mixing in of some other dialects, especally the foirm tháithe from Munster, but if people find that easier to use, that's what they're going to use. You know, evolution of languages. Go back to Indo-European if you want a pure language.

"Since major elements of the language were not specified,"

What exactly do you mean? There is no mix of whatever-you're having yourself, I spent ages learning Irish, I learnt off many very specific rules, when I speak Irish, I do not just talk whatever, I speak the grammar that I learnt and it wasn't easy. Disrespecting learners like that is not going to help the cause of Irish or win you any friends.

A Lughaidh,
Would it be "Tóg suas é" then? What would you use for "Pick one" so, Tóg amach ceann?

>Go back to Indo-European if you want a pure language.

And if you want to find a language in which learners say they speak perfectly even when they make ten mistakes in one sentence, you will only find Irish!

>Would it be "Tóg suas é" then? What would you use >for "Pick one" so, Tóg amach ceann?

Pick it up = tóg é.

Pick one = tóg ceann (acu).

I don't think anyone is claiming to speak perfect Irish, Lughaidh. The people speaking "Dublin Irish" are simply asserting that they feel their Irish is just as valid as the Irish from the Gaeltacht.

Obviously you and a couple other people here feel differently. Fact of the matter is, they have their opinions about it and you have yours. Now how about you give this whole "valid/invalid Irish" topic a rest and quit beating this proverbial dead horse. You're not going to change their opinions on this, and vice versa. Trying to do so will prove fruitless for all parties involved.

Dublin Irish speakers:

Ná bíodh do theanga fá do chrios (undah' yah' belt) agat!

Dalta,
"people outside the Gaeltacht aren't all ignorant philistines"

I never said anyone was ignorant, per say. However, I am not making what I say.

I say language is too complex to learn from a book (true), that the book is not detailed enough anyway (true), that language teaching is still in the stone age, having changed little since Berlitz's days (true), and so consequently is rubbish (true). This is contested simply because people enjoy learning as a hobby. Attacking deficiencies in teaching method is not attacking the good will of pupils. They are two unrelated things. Language courses fail the majority, and if they can teach you Irish approaching normal, it is you, and not the method that is good.. This was never a diatribe against learners, it was a remark on the failings of the language industry.

"mixing in of some other dialects, especially the foirm tháithe from Munster"

I never attacked mixing of elements from different Gaeltachts. In fact it could be done more often to improve turn of phrase, and the like. (Apparently) Maigh Eo has the most classical grammar, Dún na nGall the best preservation of tensed consonants, and Munster, dative endings. It is a bit like you broke classical Irish and some elements went to each family member. Each have valuable parts.

"But if people find that easier to use, that's what they're going to use"

They find it easier to use English idiom, and that is what they are doing. Again, this is not an attack, simply a statement arrived at by comparisons to English. Good will does not guarantee good results.

"Go back to Indo-European if you want a pure language".

I want my English to be Hiberno, British and American. German written English, Chinese spoken English, pidgins and creoles in Papua New Guinea; they may all develop into languages of merit in time, but right now are poor imitators of English what with its centuries of cultural wealth. Why start a new language when learning one? Dublin Irish is an icon, a statement. It is testement to the arrogance of the capital city, but it is no gaelic.

I think much of this is taken too personally. People here may take the time to learn it right, but that would be exceptional. Ask yourself, why do 99%+ people fail, world over, to acquire full fluency? Will gaelgeoirí here in Ireland buck the trend and all become fluent in the target language without even trying. What is so different here? There are no standards, so who are you trying to fool?

These contentions can be summed up in a few sentences:

A: 'Perfect L2 acquisition is possible with just the minimum bit of work'
B: 'It is impossible to ever become fluent, so lets not bother'
C: 'I have worked hard, therefore my language is as valid as another other form'
D: 'The difference between languages is only between accents'
E: 'Languages evolve, and ours is at the apex'
F: 'We are Dubliners, we do what we like'

All are erounous positions.

" Learnt off many very specific rules, when I speak Irish, I do not just talk whatever"

This is another popular idea today, 'whatever you believe is true'. It is not. How can you be sure you have not introduced mistakes? Without any feedback, how can any langauge achieve a standard?

“’Since major elements of the language were not specified’ What exactly do you mean? “

The caidhdeán specifies 52 phonemes. These are the significant elements one must be able to recognise to undersand the tongue. No language has just phonemes, it has allophones too. Allophones are other versions of the phonemes not counted in broad transcription (as in Foclóir Póca), but are important. If the caidhdeán gives two 'l' sounds (two phonemes), a speaker of Irish may have many more 'l' sounds.

Risteard B Breathnach in his phonetic study of Ring in Waterford got seven slender 'l's' from his informants, and as much as 10 variants of broad l's. And this dialect is not known for l phonemes. Conemara has even more. (Whcih suggests you can have differing ratios between phonemes and allophones of the same general cathegory).

The allophones are created during complex manoeuvres by the tongue when placing sounds of the language beside each other in different combinations (thus l before broad ch differs than when placed after a bi-labial).

In terms of intonation while asking a question, In Ring again, the 'tune' or 'tone' of a sentance arises from varying the stress on different syllables of that sentance. For asking a simple question of three syllables (Cá bhfuil tú ag dol [dul]) one starts with a relatively high level pitch, then the next syllable is slightly lower, and then the last syllable dips down in pitch accross the syllable. /'kal' tu: 'dol/

In Dublin Irish, “Cá bhfuil tú ag dul” is 5 (or even 6) syllables. To do this, is to knock out sandhi, which is the process of change that occurs when one speaks quickly. If sandhi is ever used, from which language will it be taken? Not Irish anyway. I suspect natives and gaelgeoirí would find it hard to understand each other in fast speech, if it were not for bi-lingualism in the gaeltacht.

In English one raises the pitch on 'Are you going anywhere?' across most of the sentence and peaking at the end. This is diametrically opposite to Irish. The rhythm of how the syllables sit inside groups of breath is also different and alters the cadence, so the delivery sounds different. What occurs is that one uses either English tunes or a distorted mixture of both.

It may not seem of import to most people, but as a lot of meaning is encoded in rhythm and intonation, one will automatically bring English semantics in riding on top of how one speaks. By breathing like an English speaker, the syllables are cut up in proportions alien to Irish, thus the rhythm changes and possible intonations alter. Also, as one is not using allophone native to the language, the sound of the tongue will alter even if you make the 52 basic phonemes as the interrelationships between phonemes will have become reset. If one cannot make transitions between velar and palatal because one was never told about glides or cannot make them, one will not make capall to capaill or éan to éin as they should be, and end up changing the internal vowels, as one would do in English.

This is not an attempt to stop change, as change it will and there is nothing one can do about that, but I suspect your grammar work will go to waste, if on a highly inflexional language you lose the ability to make those inflections, and instead rely on purely grammatical positioning to encode changes, such as the genitive, for example.

I never attack anyone for EFFORT. I point out why I think there is difficulty in emulating a language, and give supporting evidence. It does not mean I am mocking someone’s effort. The caighdeán never shows how to put in the extra elements, so one goes to the gaeltacht to put meat on the bones, or uses English. The pool of speakers is too small to ahve an unconscious standard that one hears on the radio. Any standard would have to be either a dialect or a very precisly laid out creation.

One cannot turn around and say ‘the language has evolved’ just because one did not learn it right, and to top if off, did not know how it was altered in the first place.

Once the snags are shown up, they can be worked on. What is the harm in that?

Bulaí fir, a Robert.

"They find it easier to use English idiom, and that is what they are doing."

That represents a change in the language under heavy influence from a foreign tounge. I've heard plenty of natives on the radio using English idiom and even throwing in English words when they feel like it. Obviously complete arrogance of the native speakers, right?

"Why start a new language when learning one?"
They're not starting a new language, they're learning the standard of a language, that they believe to be the language. Are you saying, even with perfect standard grammar and no English idioms, what you're talking is non-Irish gibberish?

"It is testement to the arrogance of the capital city, but it is no gaelic."

Will you go away out of that? Standard Irish isn't confined totally to Dublin. Even people in Cork speak standard Irish (gasp!). And no, there is no anual meeting in Dublin where we all sit around and say "Ok, how can we fuck up Irish some more?". Dublin speakers are just as dedicated to Irish and do make the odd trip to the Gaeltacht to get better. Now because they say "Pioc suas" or something, everything else they say is pure crap too and they're just going out of their way to screw up Irish, or their teachers are?

" Ask yourself, why do 99%+ people fail, world over, to acquire full fluency? Will gaelgeoirí here in Ireland buck the trend and all become fluent in the target language without even trying. What is so different here? There are no standards, so who are you trying to fool?"

99% of people who try do become fluent, those who don't generally don't have alot of interaction with the language. Nothing's different here except people have less contact with Irish. How do you propose to save Irish if you're going to ban everyone outside the Gaeltacht from speaking it?

"A: 'Perfect L2 acquisition is possible with just the minimum bit of work' "
Wrong. (I presume L2 acquisition is fluency?). I and others like me have worked our arses off to get good at Irish.

"B: 'It is impossible to ever become fluent, so lets not bother' "
Wrong. See above, and I will continue to endeavor to improve my Irish, at some stage I will have to become fluent, if I'm not already.

"C: 'I have worked hard, therefore my language is as valid as another other form' "
Not just working hard. We've learnt all the rules, know the grammar and can communicate fine. So - it's valid.

"D: 'The difference between languages is only between accents' "
Where has that even been argued?

"E: 'Languages evolve, and ours is at the apex' "
No, some of the things we do reflect the evolution of the language. Gaeltacht people do it too, e.g. English idioms, English borrowings.

"F: 'We are Dubliners, we do what we like'"
Yeah, sure. The big annual Dublin anti-Irish meeting is next month.

"This is another popular idea today, 'whatever you believe is true'. It is not. How can you be sure you have not introduced mistakes? Without any feedback, how can any langauge achieve a standard?"
Because I've learnt all those rules and I'm sure of them. Of course I make mistakes, everyone does and as I said I'll endeavor to improve my Irish until such mistakes are minimal. Is saying sa teach wrong because it doesn't' give an uru or a 'h', or is it wrong because I've said and I'm from outside the Gaeltacht?

All that stuff about allophones and phenomes and whatnot seems a bit pedantic. Sure, I don't really understand half of it, but as long as someone understands you, accent and what not don't matter. Are you saying when an cockey says "Alri' ma'" instead of "How are you doing, friend" with every syllable pronounced, he's not speaking English?

And what about when Irish idioms are used in English, e.g. What's the story, I'm after losing it etc. Can I not only not speak Irish, but not speak English as well?

"Once the snags are shown up, they can be worked on. What is the harm in that?"

Not a thing, I welcome anyone with better knowledge of something helping me improve it. However, you're saying that I can't improve it, because I don't speak it. You're saying I'm arogant cause I'm from Dublin, that I don't care about the language and that I have no problem making stuff up as I go along. All of which I take offence to.

A Lughaidh,
"Pick it up = tóg é."

Would that not get confused with "take it?", or is it all context?

>How do you propose to save Irish if you're going to ban >everyone outside the Gaeltacht from speaking it?

I wouldn’t ban anybody, I just want every learner to learn Irish as it is spoken in the Gaeltacht, and don’t be satisfied by the way they speak just because they are Irish people SO whatever they say in Irish is automatically good. Sorry, but that’s not that easy. To be a native English speaker born in Dublin doesn’t make you an Irish speaker.

>A Lughaidh,
>"Pick it up = tóg é."

>Would that not get confused with "take it?",

What's the difference? You take something up from the ground or from anywhere, you take it. :-)
Tóg means "to lift" as well, so what you take is in a lower place than your hand. That's "pick up", then. If you simply means "to take", you can use "glac", which means "to take something in your hand" (the noun "glac" means "grasp", the space between your thumb and your index finger).

"Dublin Irish"?

Every Dubliner I've met is afraid to start with Irish - even amoung their own. They can answer, all right. Misunderstanding as Bearla can even get sorted by resorting to Irish, but it is not their toungue to *speak*. I think this is why "Tá Gaeilge agam" is translated literally instead of to it's own meaning.

"Tá Gaeilge agam, ach níl i mo Bríste agam atá ag caint as Gaeilge...". is briste é. An bfhuil i do Bríste agat ata ag caint? Má bfhuil, tá rud hÉireannach (agus b'feider Gaelach) beó. Mura bfhuil, tá Bearla amhain beó.

From the old residents of the Gaeltacht is na "rud hÉireannach" known to be not just Irish, but has good odds of being Gaelic even.

Slán,
Seán

BTW: "Tóg é!" get kids to Do The Right Thing. Only solicitors and other teenages really try to argue the ambiguity.

Post-post-scriptum:
The sweeping statement about Dubliners, like all sweeping statements, does not sweep well. But the cunamar it does get, seems to contribute an unfair bit to some of the arguments here.

This topic has been well covered and will be closed at 12:00 AM EDT, 5:00 AM IST.

Thanks to all for remaining civil.

Caoimhín