Hello, I'm new here although I've known about the daltaí site for a bit and used it (although the only programs in my area cater exclusively to students of a Catholic university).

I've been learning Irish for about 6 months; I started out with a program on some website I've forgotten, and moved on to Teach Yourself, of which I am on Chapter 5/6; I have a bit of trouble keeping dedicated to it and would much rather like a class setting.

I have two questions I hope the people here could answer, actually, if you wouldn't mind.

1. Where do you place the use of "i" or "as"? Case in point; on another forum, someone was speaking about "Windows XP i nGaeilge"; yet most often, I would see it referred to as "as Gaeilge".

2. I have a problem with understanding the genitive case.

I understand, for example, if you were to say "glóine fíona"

But when you start using "an" and "na" is where I'm confused. For example; Prince of Wales is "Prionsa na Breataine Bige".

Shouldn't this be "Prionsa an Breataine Bige", as Breataine Bige is singular and not plural?

And again, in, say, Newfoundland; "Talamh an Éisc". Fish is singular here, no?

I'm also unsure of how genitive case works with female nouns; is it just that you place an "h" before a word that starts with a vowel? As in, "Gaeilge na hÉireann?" If someone could break this down for me it would help me greatly.

Sláinte agus beannacht
Tomás

my tuppnece worth , WIndows i ngaelige seems wrong to me , I have never heard it refered to as that . Litterlally I think it would be ' as gaeilge ' from the IRish , not in the Irish .

I too have many problems with the genetive case so cant help you there , bron orm !

The definite article in Irish is "an". In English, the definite article is "the". But unlike English, Irish has different forms (just like the English "is" has different forms: I am, you are, he is). Here are its forms:

Nominative case, singular, masculine: an
--an madra (consonant doesn't change)
--an t-iasc (vowels get a "t-")
--an siúcra (s's stay the same)

Nominative case, singular, feminine: an
--an bhean (consonant gets a "h")
--an áit (vowels don't change)
--an tsráid ("s"'s get a "t")

Nominative case, plural: na
--na madraí (No change)
--na háiteanna (Vowels get a "h")
--na sráideanna (No change)

Genitive case, singular, masculine: an
--an mhadra ("h")
--an éisc (Nothing)
--an tsiúcra ("t")

Genitive case, singular, feminine: na
--na mná (Nothing)
--na háite ("h")
--na sráide (Nothing)

Genitive case, plural: na
--na mban (urú)
--na n-áiteanna (urú)
--na sráideanna (urú... but there's none for "s")

quote:

I understand, for example, if you were to say "glóine fíona"

Should be "gloine fíona".

quote:

"Prionsa na Breataine Bige"

Nominative case: an Bhreatain Bheag
Genitive case: na Breataine Bige

Becomes "na" because it's feminine. "bige" is the feminine genitive case of "beag".

quote:

"Talamh an Éisc"

You're correct that "iasc" is singular here. Here are its forms:

Nominative singular: an t-iasc
Nominative plural: na héisc
Genitive singular: an éisc
Nominative plural: na n-iasc

The genitive is sort of a a mirror image of the nominative!

All the rules I've rhymed off in this post might seem very elaborate... well all I can say is that you figure them out quicker than you realize!

One more thing: "cúpla", oddly enough, is followed by the nominative singular; so it's not "cúpla ceisteanna", it's simply "cúpla ceist".

That (cúpla) is because there are vestiges of an old dual number in Irish, which mostly now acts like singular.

>WIndows i ngaelige seems wrong to me , I have never heard it refered to as that .

Never heard "i nGaeilge" ? Have you ever been in the Gaeltacht? I have never heard "as Gaeilge", only "i nGaeilge" from native speakers. I know "as Gaeilge" exists, since it's in O Dónaill's dictionary, but i don't know where it is used (undoubtedly, in Munster...)
I think that the expression "as Gaeilge" has been very much spread and popularized by schools because "as" isn't followed by any mutation (séimhiú nor urú), so it's easier for learners to learn and to use it than "i", that is followed by the urú. Although "i nGaeilge" is what most native speakers say...

>Litterlally I think it would be ' as gaeilge ' from the IRish , not in the Irish .

Is there any difference in meaning between "as Gaeilge" and "i nGaeilge" ?

"I know "as Gaeilge" exists, since it's in O Dónaill's dictionary, but i don't know where it is used (undoubtedly, in Munster...)"

Dia daoibh a chairde, I read the content of these forums often but have never really participated (taim beagainin cuthaileach)... Mar sin de I've noticed that you don't seem to have much time for Munster Irish Lughaidh, why is that? I know you prefer the Ulster dialect which is fine but do you in some way consider the Munster version to be someway inferior? Contaminated too much by the French Normans (as opposed to the Bretons)perhaps? Not remote or pure enough for you?!

For the record, we use "as Gaeilge" all the time in Munster. ms "Abair as Gaeilge i" etc...

On a different note, one of my favourite Hiberno-Englishisms is when somebody introduces him or herself by saying, "Michael Murphy is my name", which is obviously a direct translation from, "Michael O'Murchu is ainm dom". For some reason this makes me smile everytime I hear it and is very common down here in Cork. Do any of ye guys out there have any favourite Hiberno-English sayings and what are they??

I thought that "Michael O'Murchu is ainm dom" translates to "Michael Murphy is name to me"

>Mar sin de I've noticed that you don't seem to have >much time for Munster Irish Lughaidh, why is that?

because I don't have much time :-)

>I know you prefer the Ulster dialect which is fine but >do you in some way consider the Munster version to be >someway inferior?

Not at all, it's just as good as Ulster and Connemara one.

>Contaminated too much by the French Normans

How??? the only French thing i know in Munster Irish is "garsún" (from French "garçon"=boy), and in Ulster we say "gasar" which is the same word, more distorted in Ulster.

>(as opposed >to the Bretons)perhaps? Not remote or pure enough for >you?!

I'm a linguist, so for me, there's no purity or impurity in languages: languages just should be studied as they are spoken by native speakers.

I just give information here about Donegal Irish because it's the less-taught dialect, so I'd like it to be better known and studied: Standard Irish is mainly based on Connemara and Munster Irish.

Lughaidh, without meaning to offend, Ulster Irish is somewhat less accesable than Munster and Connemara, the accent is hard to understand and there's a lot of grammar things that differentiate it, e.g. a' in place of an and the whole Cha/Chan thing. That's probably why it wasn't used for Standard Irish. Though I do quite like Gaeilg.

By the way, do you find Scots Gael understandable since you have Ulster Irish? I find Ulster Irish hard enough to grasp, never mind Scots Gael.

>Lughaidh, without meaning to offend, Ulster Irish is >somewhat less accesable than Munster and Connemara, the >accent is hard to understand

Munster Irish is hard to understand for me...

>and there's a lot of grammar things that differentiate >it, e.g. a' in place of an

native speakers say that everywhere in Ireland, when they speak in a natural way. Just listen to native speakers and you'll see.
There are loads of grammar things in Munster Irish that aren't in Standard Irish: more than Ulster features i think.

>and the whole Cha/Chan thing. That's probably why it >wasn't used for Standard Irish.

cha/chan isn't used for standard Irish for that reason, yes. But why haven't they put more Ulster features in the Standard, I don't know. Maybe because most of those who 've made the standard grammar aren't from Donegal...

>Though I do quite like Gaeilg.

>By the way, do you find Scots Gael understandable since >you have Ulster Irish?

Yes because i've been studying Scottish Gaelic as well :) . I understand Scots Gaelic when it's spoken slowly. I knew an old woman in the Gaeltacht who said she was able to understand Scottish Gaelic pretty well .

>I find Ulster Irish hard enough to grasp, never mind Scots Gael.

Because most Donegal speakers speak very quickly. I find Munster irish hard to understand when spoken, not much when written.

"Munster Irish is hard to understand for me..."
Well, that's my point, Connemara and Munster Gaeilgeoirs would understand each other better than Connemara/Munster and Ulster Gaeilgeoirs.

"Because most Donegal speakers speak very quickly. I find Munster irish hard to understand when spoken, not much when written."
I have to say, it's mainly the accent. TG4 news is full of Donegal fellas, I suppose because it's the biggest Gaeltacht. I had a extra-school teacher from the Donegal Gaeltacht, he used to say specific words seperately and slowly but half the time I still didn't understand him.

"I knew an old woman in the Gaeltacht who said she was able to understand Scottish Gaelic pretty well ."
Would most Ultaigh be able to? I think the two languages should be brought closer together as much as possible, bigger pool of resources etc, I think it would be much better for the two languages.

>Well, that's my point, Connemara and Munster >Gaeilgeoirs would understand each other better than >Connemara/Munster and Ulster Gaeilgeoirs.

I don't think that Connemara and Ulster people have difficulties to understand each other. I had a teacher from Connemara, I would understand everything he said.

>"Because most Donegal speakers speak very quickly. I >find Munster irish hard to understand when spoken, not >much when written."
>I have to say, it's mainly the accent. TG4 news is full >of Donegal fellas, I suppose because it's the biggest >Gaeltacht.

Maybe because it's one of the Gaeltacht where there is the biggest number of young native speakers as well.


>Would most Ultaigh be able to?

I don't think so, if they are not used to it at all.

>I think the two languages should be brought closer >together as much as possible, bigger pool of resources >etc, I think it would be much better for the two >languages.

Don't forget they are different languages, mostly for pronounciation and vocabulary (and a bit of morphology as well, while syntax is almost the same).

"Don't forget they are different languages, mostly for pronounciation and vocabulary (and a bit of morphology as well, while syntax is almost the same)."

But not as different as say, English and French, they're almost mutually understandable, looking at the words, you can make out fairly easily where they came from, e.g. ùr meaning nua. If they spelling was changed in a similar the Irish spelling was, they'ld be alot more compatable.

"I don't think that Connemara and Ulster people have difficulties to understand each other. I had a teacher from Connemara, I would understand everything he said."

That's funny, I always found Munster Irish the easiest to understand, maybe because my old primary school teacher was from there.

>I always found Munster Irish the easiest to >understand, maybe because my old primary school >teacher was from there.

Sure. I find Ulster irish easier to understand because it's the dialect i've heard and read from the beginning.