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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (July-August) » Archive through August 23, 2005 » Clare Byrne article « Previous Next »

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Odriscoll
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Username: Odriscoll

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 08:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Just wondering if anyone else read this article posted on the CBC site here in Canada. http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_byrne/20050713.html

I guess the bottom line from the article leaves one thinking that Irish will never be revived by all of us with great intentions, in various countires around the world, following Irish language courses, etc., until the people of Ireland take it seriously enough to learn it and speak it themselves on a day-to-day basis. The author of this article leaves the impression that this is never going to happen. But, then again, "never" is a very long time.....

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Robert
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Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

For the purposes of revival, the irish movement does itself a diservice by talk of irish been a 'national language'; official yes, national no.

We are in a period of history, with global communications and the spread of anglo-american cultural norms, where minority and local culture is looked upon as almost atavistic, and most definity quaint.

Irish can be a community language, as it is now, but not a national language, not at least for centuries. Most of the revivalists lack even the most rudimentary grasp of socio-economics, and thus are clueless as to what ensures why a particular langauge is used or not (such as having trade language status, a functioning civil service, a rich and powerful elite, an intelligensia, national governance, and basic common or garden grass roots support).

And the 'ghostly life' of Irish thru Hiberno-English is nonsense; what with the young moving either towards a form of contrieved home-county accent or American-cum-Auzzie hybrid.

For the record, I think her writing is of the 'I write nice for teacher' sort...

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Odriscoll
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Username: Odriscoll

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Robert: I think the distinction you make between a national versus an official language is a very important point. While Ireland can, and has, declared Irish as an "official" language, it is truly nowhere even close to being a national language. I'm thinking that having the EU recognize it for purpose of trade among the EU countries is nothing but "smoke and mirrors" until a better job is done of reviving it as a living working language within their own country.

Nonetheless, I shall keep trying, in my own insubstantial ways, to learn the language just because we visit Ireland frequently and I think the language is beautiful! I do believe Irish will indeed enjoy a resurgence at some point, but probably not in tmy time. :-)

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Dalta
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Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Not a greatly written article, gives a lot of one liner clichés without actually tackling the issues. I think we all know that without serious Government intervetion we can kiss our lovely language goodbye. Even if you speak it at home or amongst friends, or even try your hand at speaking it in the real world in Ireland, there's too many people around who don't speak and in the end you'll have to revert to English, which is considerably easier to speak fluently for non-Gaeltacht dwellers.

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 27
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 05:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I disagree with you robert. Gaeilge is the language of Ireland - all other languages are foreign and as such is undoubtedly the language of our nation.
I agree that no it is unfortunately the chosen language of the majority but the last thing we need is Gaeilgeoirí being boo hoo negative *Bígí dearfach* and of course be realistic.. As long as im around she'll be doing well ;-)
Stádás oifigiúil is only a small step in the right direction..

Alt 8, Bunreacht na hEireann ;
"Os í an Ghaeilge an teanga náisiúnta, is í an príomhtheanga oifigiúil í"

Or in bloody béarla;
"Irish as the national language is the first offical language"

GOOD MAN DEVALERA!!!!!!!

Relating to that article "a swipe at the myth that the Irish can actually speak Irish." Last time i checked i was irish and An Ghaeilge is my main language

Ps. Maith an Fear ODriscoll ... we need more ppl like you!!! ;-)


(Message edited by Domhnall on July 19, 2005)

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Robert
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Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 09:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

All,
I am not 'negative' about the potential of Irish once again, only pragmatic about what measurments tell us at the moment. Humans can choose to imagine new elements to thier concensus; intent or rather power of intent is key...

Ulster, it seems at this juncture, will be the homeland of any serious revival in irish and any co-related re-definition of 'neo-gaelicism'. All I pointed out above was that cognisance of structure was, in my mind, absolutely requisite to any successful revival.

Certain groups provide case studies in the creation of either elites or '3rd or 4th columns', such as the rise of the middle class in Victorian England, or the Catholic mercantile English speaking classes in Ireland (late 18th C. to mid 20th C) who undermined the Ascendency, and ultimetly British rule.

In such cases, change came about over generations, not be immediate revolution, thus the changes were more lasting.

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Rosalie Tuomey
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Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hello!

My name is Rosalie Tuomey. I live in Texas in the USA. I am very proud of my Irish ancestry and feel that I have an "Irish" spirit.

Obviously, I am interested in the Irish language or I wouldn't have even found this website.

I believe that people all over the world long for their Irish ways to be re-kindled. The people of Ireland are our only hope!

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Dalta
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Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"The people of Ireland are our only hope!"

There's no hope so.

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Socadán
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Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Professor Joe Lee wrote a very amusing few paragraphs in his History of Modern Ireland about the hypocrisy of Irish people towards the language. Well worth a read.

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Socadán
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Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Professor Joe Lee wrote a very amusing few paragraphs in his History of Modern Ireland about the hypocrisy of Irish people towards the language. Well worth a read.

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Domhnall
Member
Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 38
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 07:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit Rosalie!
There's quite a few ways of learning irish using books, computers and of course daltai.com!!
But you should try meeting Gaeilgeoirí face to face (There's 25,000 in the US) its the easiest way to learn!
Or come to the emerald isle and i'll teach ya ;-)

Go n-eirí leat!!

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Socadán tá an leabhar sin agam.. Cá bhfuil sé sa leabhar??

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Rosalie Tuomey
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Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní thuigim.

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 42
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 07:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Rosalie i'll just re-write everything i wrote in the last 2 messages in English ;

Hi Rosie,

There's quite a few ways of learning irish using books, computers and of course this website!
But you should try meeting Gaeilgeoirí (Irish speakers)face to face (There's 25,000 in the US) its the easiest way to learn!
Or come to the Ireland and i'll teach you ;-)

Good luck!



Socadán, i have that book.. Where is it in the book?

You get me now!?

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Rosalie Tuomey
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Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't think there are any Gaeilgeoirí in rural Texas where I live! I would be very surprised. If there are I would like to know how to make their acquaintance.

Maybe some day I can come to Ireland. That has always been my dream.

For now I will just try to learn the alphabet and phrases. This and a few other websites are very helpful.

Thank you and God bless!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 442
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post


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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 444
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

so now, there is a revival thing going on in the north...a segment of the population with little to no interest previously has taken up the banner, so to speak.

Analyzing the situation critically, what brought on the change? how can similar circumstances be brought about in the south?

but you're right, the language was damaged through concerted (british) government efforts, and the best way to revive it is the same way.
the government needs to do several things

1)in the coming year, teach all kindergartens in gaeilge only. next year, kindergarten and first grade, the year after kindergarten and first grade and second grade, etc. by the time this years kindergarten is ready to go on to university the entire compulsory education system will be irish only and all those kids (now adults), as well as all those growing up behind them, will come out fluent.

2) all road signage country-wide made gaeilge only. old signs can be phased out over the next 10 years or so to give the public time to adjust.

3) government stipends (bonuses) given to all newspapers and magazines, television and radio stations, and book publishers who produce over 25% of their product (count pages and minutes) as Gaeilge. a greater stipend to those who exceed 50%, greater still for 75% and yet another for those who produce 99-100% as Gaeilge. This law to remain in effect for 50 years, with an option for the Dáil to extend it after that.

4) a benchmark can be developed for evaluation of other businesses for stipends on the order of #3.

5) english phased out of all government publications and civil service over the next 20 years. areas that have been privatized (like i've heard the phone system was) must make available their bills, invoices, literature, etc as Gaeilge to any customer who requests it (ie, while it would not be mandatory that private utilities go gaeilge only, it would be illegal to refuse to offer gaeilge services to a resident of ireland who so requests it).

6) english phased out of the court system over the next 25 years. what happens now for those who do not speak english or irish? what is done for, say, a german who stands trial in ireland? I would imagine an interpreter is provided, and the proceedings are conducted in english. same thing here...all proceedings (in the end) to be in Irish only, with interpreters provided for those who request them (more jobs for irish speakers). By this time, all those fluent students will be adults with much of the rest of the country increasing their skill and fluency over the decades of changes outlined above.

if this is instituted before any future reunification of the country, it will in effect kill such hope almost instantly. Depends on which longshot contingency you value more...

short of measures like that...at least the first one...it's a dark future...

(Message edited by antaine on August 06, 2005)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1729
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The Irish Language movement in the North of Ireland is long established, I don't know what you mean by "now".

http://www.culturlann.ie/ - founded 15 odd years ago.

Some of the founders of the Gaelic League were from the North (and plenty of them were also Unionists!)

(Message edited by aonghus on August 07, 2005)

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 43
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine just out of curiosity.. Are you Irish or American?
Im sorry but you're suggestions are impractical and would never be supported.
We'd need to educate 1000's of teachers Gaeilge..
Ppl in their 30's and older arent going to go back to scoil chun Gaeilge a fhoghlaim..
Signs are bilingual more or less so foreigners can pronounce them etc..
I agree with the paper and business ideas..
English wont be phased out because ppl under school going age wouldnt understand a word and as i say is impractical and wouldnt be supported.
I think that if we cop-on in relation to education it'd be a very good start..
Lets not be synical tho - -
Tiocfaidh ár lá! ;-)

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 447
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 08:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"The Irish Language movement in the North of Ireland is long established, I don't know what you mean by "now". "

I mean that much is being made of it now. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to have gotten alot more press in the last year or two...but that's just my perception...

domhnall,

i'm american, and i realize the utter impracticality of my suggestion.

the education idea (i am a teacher) however is predicated on the notion that children under 5 or 6 can still acquire language naturally, provided they at least start by that age. I see no reason why with 50-75 years of work ireland couldn't be truly bilingual. people aren't going to put in the work to learn it unless a)it is extremely profitable to do so, or b)they have no other choice. not very democratic I know, but desperate times call for desperate measures. I, for one, am hoping to achieve fluency before I have any children. I intend to not speak a word of english to them so long as i live, and would love it if i should find a like-minded wife. they'll pick up english everyplace else...they'll not be for want of it.

the thing is...and i'm assuming you meant people *over* school going age (the students would be the ones learning it, the adults would run the risk of being left behind)...is that people over school going age...well...die, for lack of a softer word. eventually, those of school going age today will represent the entire population so, go for it...

while much of my suggestion was simply to illustrate the amoung of work to be done, the "every school a gaelscoil" and business ideas were made in all sincerity.

I thought teachers had to demonstrate competency as gaeilge to be hired in the first place. granted, few are probably fluent, but if given a deadline, remuneration (that's key) and means to become fluent they should have the shortest road to travel (out of the general population). It would also make for a great jobmarket for those in the gaeltacht who keep up their language...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1733
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Of interest in this context, and lifted from http://www.cnag.ie

Polasaí Oideachais Chonradh na Gaeilge

1+1+1

Ardchumas i 3 theanga – Ag Fíorú na hAislinge Eorpaí

1) Cuirtear múinteoirí teanga idir bhun-mhúinteoirí agus mhúinteoirí dara leibhéil ar cúrsa tumoideachais bliana i ndúiche na teanga sin mar chuid dá n-oiliúint*.

2) Múintear ábhar amháin de bhreis ar an nGaeilge féin trí Ghaeilge do gach scoláire.

3) Múintear ábhar amháin trí theanga ón iasacht do gach scoláire dara leibhéil**.

4) Beachtaítear siollabas Gaeilge (1) don chainteoir dúchais agus (2) don fhoghlaimeoir.

5) Beachtaítear dianchúrsaí feabhais sa Ghaeilge don dalta a bhí ar scoil thar lear.

6) Beachtaítear scrúduithe Stáit i mórtheangacha na bpobal inimirceach.

*Cúrsaí de chineál Erasmus do mhúinteoiri teangacha ón iasacht, coláistí ullmhcháin sa Ghaeltacht do ábhair bhunmhúinteoirí agus do ábhair mhúinteoirí Gaeilge dara leibhéil/mic léinn 3ú leibhéil na Gaeilge.

**Nasctar gach scoil dara leibhéil le scoil amháin ón iasacht a mhúineann tríd an tríú teanga sin (Fraincis/Gearmánais/ Rúisís/Sínís/Arabais/Polannais/Spáinnis/Iodáilis, srl.), rud a rachaidh chun tairbhe na hÉireann i gcúrsaí taidhleoireacht agus trádála.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1734
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post


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Lost newbie
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Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 07:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think those who wish to promote the langauge should study the Welsh revival over the last 30 years , the seem to have successfully harnessed the support of the youth which is the key to keeping a langauge alive , the initiatives used there have been a success by any benchmark , I lived in Cardiff for a while which is not as Welsh speaking as the north but was impressed by the number of Welsh conversations I heard on trains , in bars etc . Speaking to folk they said the langauge was being promoted pro-actively by the government and not just being given lip-service ( pun ! )

I think if a revival comes it will come from the north but there are other social forces at work too . Even in UK the English language is being overtaken with 'Global' ( ie american ) lexicon and this is also happening in non-english speaking countries , youth see it as cool or feel they are more accepted socially by peers when using these phrases they hear from media outlets and films .

The youth is the key , we have to somehow make it 'cool ' to use Irish . The reason I mentioned the welsh was beucuase it seemed to me that there were many young folk who were proud to use their language , and there were a few welsh-speaking clubs n the centre of town .

Where theres a 'bhfuil ' theres a way !!

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Rosalie Tuomey
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Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you, Antaine, for the information.

It seems to me that the love of one's mother tongue should come from the heart, not the mind. Here in Texas as well as all over the U.S., the Mexican people have spread their culture, cuisine and language. I say 'hooray" for them! (many Americans don't agree with me). They speak Spanish in their homes and work to have it not die out. The English speaking population have been forced to print signs and even some periodicals in Spanish as well as provide Spanish speaking teachers in the lower grades (in Texas anyway) because of the pressure. I think these people have a point if they refuse to lose their way of life.

So.....why don't the Irish people do the same? Possibly, cuisine, music and love of their own culture would be the catalyst needed for the family to re-kindled the language at home. It seems that pushing cultural events that bring Irish pride would be helpful.

Yes, I know...I'm just an American and I don't live every day in Ireland. But, if I can give a bloody "damn" (please don't be offended I beg you), then shoudn't the native Irish? I am probably 6 or 7th generation American and I STILL CARE.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 450
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I think, not to put too fine a point on it, that we Americans care where many Irish wills falter for several reasons:

1) we've already lost it. by that i mean that the language and most of the irish culture have died out in their authentic forms in the US as immigrants sought to assimilate, not remain distinct. all we are left with are novel vestiges in the mainstream today (we who seek to learn the language are the exception, not the rule). sadly, i have little doubt that the irish themselves will realize the full value of the language about fifty years after it is gone.

2) we have come to value multiculturalism to one degree or other, and see our ancestors' desire to "assimilate at all costs" as myopic, costly and tragic.

3) culpability. people will never be able to admit to themselves that to sacrifice their own culture and language for that of the Enemy (with a capital 'E') is to steep their hands in the blood of their own ancestors and countrymen

4) and lastly, as americans, we find ourselves surrounded by communities and subcommunities of "new immigrants" (those who came in large groups *after* WWII). The Irish are a community of the "old immigrants" - those to whom assimilation was key. I think the desire for us to reclaim ancestral heritage is one part envy and one part "feeling of being beseiged". Don't read into that a negative connotation, by it I simply mean "old immigrants" feel left out of what can be a vibrant and beautiful part of one's cultural life, and a little uncomfortable at being surrounded by other, more organized communities. I think as humans we seek a badge of distinctiveness, but also ties to a larger group. The answer: participate in a subculture - irish, hispanic, goth, metal, television or movie fanclubs/obsessions, cults, etc...some are positive, such as preserving ancestral heritage...some are neutral such as music or fan clubs and some detrimental. The fact that even detrimental associations have no lack of recruits shows how great the need is in every human being for acceptance and interaction.



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