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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (July-August) » Archive through August 03, 2005 » Questions about a test « Previous Next »

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Paul_h
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Username: Paul_h

Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 06:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

i just did the Irish test at http://www.transparent.com/.
I scored 81% - must do better; however I am confused by 2 of the questions especially.

Q. which of the words at a, b, c, d below is incorrect?

7. Tá siad ag bailiú airgead ó mhuintir an bhaile
dár gcoláiste.
A. siad
B. airgead
C. dár
D. gcoláiste

Answer - b. airgead.
Why? should it be 'airgid' perhaps

Q. select the best answer of a, b, c, d below
10. Cá bhfuil iníon ___________________?
A. mná an tigh
B. mná na tí
C. bhean an tí
D. bean an tigh
Answer - c. bhean an tí
I thought you would use the genitive 'mná', can anybody explain?

go raibh maith agaibh
Paul

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 621
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 06:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

7. airgead

Should be the genitive case: airgid

When you express "ing" in Irish, you use the genetive case.

Looking for a man: Ag lorg fir
Buying a cat: Ag ceannach cait
Annoying a boy: Ag crá buachalla

10. bhean an tí

"bean" is definite here, by which I mean that it refers to a specific woman, rather than just to "a woman".

Here's some indefinite ones:

iníon mhná
iníon fhir
iníon gharda
iníon mhoncaí

Here's some definite ones:

iníon na mná
iníon an fhir
iníon an gharda
iníon an mhoncaí

You'll notice that I have changed the definite ones to the genetive case... but you only change the last definite one. In the following ones, instead of changing the definite ones, you just stick a "h" on them. Hence, you have:

iníon chara na mná
iníon mhac an fhir
iníon dheartháir an gharda
iníon uncail an mhoncaí

Cá bhfuil iníon bhean an tí?

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Paul_h
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Username: Paul_h

Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 07:09 am:   Edit Post Print Post

good explanations thanks.
One supplementary question:

"Here's some indefinite ones:
iníon mhná"

"Here's some definite ones:
iníon na mná "

why a "h" in "mná" in the indefinite?

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 622
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 08:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

iníon mhná

Because "iníon" is feminine ; )

mac mná

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Paul_h
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Username: Paul_h

Post Number: 33
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 09:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

you may be right but i'm not convinced :-)
the genitive of 'bean' is 'mná'
the genitive of 'an bhean' is 'na mná'
I thought this was constant irrespective of the gender of the object possessed.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 623
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The noun in question is "bean". Here are its four forms:

Nominative singular: bean
Nominative plural: mná
Genitive singular: mná
Genitive plural: ban

And here they are again, this time preceeded by the definite article:

Nominative singular: an bhean
Nominative plural: na mná
Genitive singular: na mná
Genitive plural: na mban

As you can see, with the definite ones, the gender has decided whether it gets a "h" or not, eg. "an bhean", "na mná", "na mban".

But... when it comes to the indefinite, the gender of the noun has no influence. Different rules come in to play:

A woman's son: mac mná
A woman's daughter: iníon mhná

There's an Irish story by title of: Fiosracht Mhná = A woman's curiosity.

Nouns in the genitive are treated just like adjectives:

a big son: mac mór
a big daughter: iníon mhór

Just when you've digested that, I'll let you mull over another one. What's the Irish for:

1) the boy's school bag
2) the woman's identity card

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Paul_h
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Username: Paul_h

Post Number: 34
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

hmmmm....mulling

1) the boy's school bag
mála scoile an bhuachaill?
2) the woman's identity card
cárta chéannachta* na mná?

* i had to check the dictionary for 'identity'
it also gives 'aithne' & 'ionnannas', don't know which is correct in this context.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 215
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, Paul, you are correct that
quote:

the genitive of 'bean' is 'mná'
the genitive of 'an bhean' is 'na mná'

but you are incorrect to assume that
quote:

this was constant...

Irish grammar rules are never constant. There are always exceptions. The sentence above
Cá bhfuil iníon bhean an tí?,
is an example of what's called the suspended genitive. The suspended genitive is set of exceptions to the rule that nouns following other nouns must be in the genitive case.

As Fear na mBróg points out, one exception is when a definite noun follows another noun. The exceptional modifiying noun is made definite by being modified by a third noun.

In this case the indefinite noun bean is made definite by being modified by the noun teach and the definite article an. Since teach is modifying bean it must be put in the genitive case, , giving bean an tí. Bean an tí is now a definite noun; the woman of the house can only be one person.

Now the rule for suspended genitive says you suspend the gentitive of the second noun and lenite it to indicate its genitive relationship to the first noun, i.e., iníon bhean an tí. The third noun preserves it actual genitive relationship to the second noun by remaining in the genitive case.

Other examples of suspended gentives for definite nouns are
cóta mhac Sheáin
pobal chathair Phort Láirge
ag iarraidh iasacht mo ghunna
tar ais thus gach bliana
The suspended genitive appears in bold letters.

There are other exceptions where the genitive rule is suspended. One exception is when you use a partitive noun like cuid, e.g.,
ag déanamh mo chuid oibre
ar son ceann de na náisiúin bheaga
bás cuid mhór acu
Notice that this last suspended genitive is not lenited. This is because it is modified by an adjective and a prepositional pronoun; it is not modified by a third noun.

Another exception is when an amount is modifying a noun, e.g.,
spás trí
éidí na gcéadta eitleoir
For more supended genitive exceptions see rules 9.24 to 9.36 of Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithe Críosta, An Gúm, 1999, pp. 76-79.

Paul, ná déan diarmad ar a mbíonn dhá insint ar scéal agus dhá leagan déag ar amhrán agus dhá éiscint fhicid ar riail gramadaí.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 462
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithe Críosta"

that excellent book is out of print for 4 years at least, DAMNÚ SÍORAÍ, does anyone know where i could find one (second hand?) on the web?

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 87
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

An dea-scéal: tá cóip athláimhe ar fáil trí abebooks.com ó dhíoltóir i Ros Comáin.

An drochscéal: $80.68 an praghas atá air!

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 216
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

These are two more examples
quote:

1) the boy's school bag ...
2) the woman's identity card ...

where you need a suspended genitive.

Lets look at each example. The genitive case of buachaill is buachalla, so "the boy's school" should be translated as scoil an bhuachalla. The boy's school refers to one, and only one school. It is, therefore, a definite noun.

When a definite noun modifies another noun you must suspend the genitive. In other words, "the boy's school bag" should be translated as mála scoil an bhuachalla. Scoil can not be lenited because the initial s is not followed by either a vowel, l, r, or n.

It is the same analysis for your second example. The woman's identity is given in Irish as céannacht na mná. Although she may have an alias, she can only have one true identity. Therefore, céannacht na mná is a definite noun. To modify a noun with a definite noun reguires the suspended genitive, i.e., cárta chéannacht na mná. Note that we were able to lenite céannacht.

(Message edited by Lúcas on July 19, 2005)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 217
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Let's try a suspended genitive with four nouns, e.g.,
the color of the man of the house's dog.
Man of the house is fear an tí similar to bean an tí. It, too, is a definite noun.

The dog of the man of the house would require the supended gentitive since the modifier is a definite noun. Therefore, we would get
madadh fhear an tí
in Donegal. Elsewhere you might get
madra fhear an tí.
"The dog of the man of the house" is a also a definite noun so it would require another use of the suspended genitive to modify color, i.e.,
dath mhadadh fhear an tí
or
dath mhadra fhear an tí
Note that the genitive gets suspended until the last noun.

Anybody got a five noun phrase they want to try? How about "the color of the head of the man of the house's dog"? Bain triail as.

(Message edited by Lúcas on July 19, 2005)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Peter
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

> the boy's school bag

I don't think your variant is correct as the syntactic relations here are quite different.

"mála scoil an bhuachalla" would mean "the bag of the school of the boy". In the English phrase "the boy" depends on the word "bag" (strictly speaking, on the phrase group "school bag", but not on "school") as well as "school". So:

boy <---> school )

But for your Irish phrase it would be:

bag ---> school ---> boy

"school bag" is viewed as a kind of a set expression. I'm not sure that the phrase like that could be rendered into Irish with the help of the Genetive. It doesn't sound good. I'd say:

mála scoile atá ag an mbuachaill... more or less

The second example of the message is quite the same.

> madadh fhear an tí in Donegal

Connacht as well.
Le meas,
Peter

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Peter
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 03:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Correction:

boy ---> [ bag ---> school ]
(see above)

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Peter
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Damn it! Correction 2, I'm in a hurry...
I beg your pardon.

boy<---(bag>school)

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Domhnall
Member
Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I learned it mar seo:

You'd say things like le haghaidh Fhoras na Gaeilge
and
Bothar Dhroichead Atha - so instead of getting the bad boy tuiseal ginideach in all you do is throw a 'h' no.
It's used when you're talking about an already named noun.. Duno if that helps ach go n-éirí leat!

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 626
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 06:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

In other words, "the boy's school bag" should be translated as mála scoil an bhuachalla.

With respect, Lúcas, you are wrong.

They translate as:

the boy's school bag = mála scoile an bhuachalla
the woman's identity card = cárta aitheantais na mná

Note there is no use of the "suspended genitive" as you call it. This is because "mála scoile" originated before "an buachaill".

Taking the term:

mála scoile

What you have here is a "bag". The second word "scoile" just suggests that it has something to do with school; it doesn't make any other suggestions (such as that the school owns the bag, or that the bag is located in the school).

"mála scoile" is treated as a concrete noun unto itself here. "scoile" is indefinite. It stays indefinite:

my school bag = mo mhála scoile
John's school bag = mála scoile Sheáin

identity card = cárta aitheantais
John's identity card = cárta aitheantais Sheáin

"Sheáin" isn't modifying "aitheantais" -- it's modifying "cárta aitheantais", which is treated as a unit.

Believe me... you get the hang of it eventually!

Here's one to get your brain thinking:

That's my son's school bag. No it's not, that's Mary's school bag! Who's Mary? Gary's daughter. Oh... and how do you know that it's Gary's daughter's school bag? 'Cause we found her identity card in it. You found his daughter's idenity card in her school bag? Yeah!

(Note that I'd actually use "is le" to indicate posession in the following... use of the genitive here feels unnatural, but for the purpose of this conversation I'll use it anyway:)

Sin mála scoile mo mhic. Ní hea, mála scoile Mháire atá ann! Cé hí Máire? Iníon Ghearóid. Ó... agus cá bhfios duit gur mála scoile iníon Ghearóid atá ann? Mar fuaireamar a cárta aitheantais istigh ann. Fuair tú cárta aitheantais a iníne ina mála scoile? Fuair!
--

Taking a close look at the part in bold:

mála scoile iníon Ghearóid
Gary's daughter's school bag

Gearóid = definite : It refers to a specific person.

iníon = definite : Made so by "Gearóid". There's only one "iníon Ghearóid". Note however that the "suspended genitive" rule applies here, because we've already altered one definite genitive noun... and one's enough!

scoile = indefinite : Nothing makes it definite, it's simply acts as an adjective to describe "mála".

mála = definite : Made so by "iníon". We've already seen that "iníon" is made definite by "Gearóid".

Let's see what happens if "Gearóid" suddenly becomes indefinite...

a man's daughter's school bag
mála scoile iníne fir

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 221
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think I get it now, a Fhir. Thank you very much. Let me rephrase just to make sure.
quote:

John's school bag = mála scoile Sheáin

It is John's bag so the noun "John" is modifying bag, not the noun "school." It could only modify "school" if and only if the school should make special school bags, say with a school motto or banner embroided in school colors. Otherwise, the more normal usage is to speak of generic school bags. Hence, we don't suspend the genitive.
Ditto for
quote:

John's identity card = cárta aitheantais Sheáin

It is John's card and it is an identity card. Both nouns, "John" and "identity," modify the noun "card." Therefore, we do not suspend the genitive.

I love that phrase, suspended genitive, but I did not invent it. Dr. Antaine Ó Donnaile used it in the link I gave above. He made a humorous, if slightly off-color, joke about its usage.

Let me see how your explanation applies to the examples of suspended genitive I pulled out of the book:

cóta mhac Sheáin
mac modifes cóta but Seán modifies mac → suspended genitive

pobal chathair Phort Láirge
cathair modifies pobal but Port Láirige modifies cathair → suspended genitive

ag iarraidh iasacht mo ghunna
iasacht modifies iarraidh (or is the object of ag iarraidh) but gunna modifies iasacht → suspended genitive

tar ais thús gach bliana
tús modifies tar ais but gach bliana modifies tús → suspended genitive
That makes sense. Thanks again, a Fhir. I think I got it. I wish the book explained it so clearly.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Paul_h
Member
Username: Paul_h

Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

go raibh agaibh gach duine,
I'm digesting everything, the site is really a great learning source

Paul

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Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 42
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 04:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The atomic weight of the compound of the chemical of the dye of the color of the corner of the carpet of the room of the son of the man of the House of Commons of Ireland.
Hmmm. 13 nouns. I'm not even gonna try it.

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 638
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

The atomic weight of the compound of the chemical of the dye of the color of the corner of the carpet of the room of the son of the man of the House of Commons of Ireland.

I'd gladly translate it if it had meaning.

I'll twist it a little:

The atomic mass of the main compound constiuent of the chemical sample.

Mais adamhach phríomh-chomhábhar chomhdhúileach an tsampla cheimicigh.

mais = nominative (noun)
adamhach = nominative (adjective)
phríomh-chomhábhar = nominative (noun) ("suspended genitive")
chomhdhúileach = nominative (adjective) ("suspended genitive")
an tsampla = genitive of "an sampla"
cheimicigh = masculine genitive of "ceimiceach"

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 640
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Just to give you a little taste of how adjectives have different genitives depending on the gender of the noun:

The European Union = An tAontas Eorpach
President of the European Union = Uachtarán an Aontais Eorpaigh

The European Court = An Chúirt Eorpach
President of the European Court = Uachtarán na Cúirte Eorpaí



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