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Celtoid
Member Username: Celtoid
Post Number: 87 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 07:43 am: |
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"Is geall le cliché é 'uair na cinniúna' ach oireann an nath don tréimhse ina bhfuilimid i gcás Manannaise." Níl smaoineamh ar bith agamsa. |
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Socadán Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 11:05 am: |
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Celtoid
Member Username: Celtoid
Post Number: 88 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 07:26 am: |
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Whoops. Is é an chaoi a raibh a fhios agam é sin. Teastaíonn tilleadh caife uaim. N'fheadar cén fáth nár bhain sé úsáid as an bfhocal "sean-nath"? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 447 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 09:48 am: |
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sean-nath = old expression cliché = (Merriam-Webster)> 1 : a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it 2 : a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation 3 : something (as a menu item) that has become overly familiar or commonplace Like: "Irish people are red-haired, drink Guinness all the time and play fiddle" > cliché "American people are fat and eat burgers all the time and drink Coca-Cola all the time, watching base-ball or football on TV" > cliché. |
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Socadán Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 05:05 pm: |
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Lughaidh wrote: _____________________________________________________ Like: "Irish people are red-haired, drink Guinness all the time and play fiddle" > cliché "American people are fat and eat burgers all the time and drink Coca-Cola all the time, watching base-ball or football on TV" > cliché. _____________________________________________________ Those are stereotypes, I think. A single person can be a cliché, but not a class of people. |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 66 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 08:41 pm: |
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There is no real difference between a "stereotype" and a "cliché". Both refer not exactly to persons or classes of people but first to ideas. And the idea that "Irish people are red-haired, drink Guinness all the time and play fiddle", or the idea that "American people are fat and eat burgers all the time and drink Coca-Cola all the time, watching base-ball or football on TV" are ideed both clichés (or stereotypes, as you prefer)... |
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Maidhc_Ó_g
Member Username: Maidhc_Ó_g
Post Number: 35 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 08:41 pm: |
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I'd say that those examples are both stereotypes and cliché. Actually, cliché stereotypes. Something or someone becomes cliché from overuse until it becomes stale and boring. Stereotypes are when something is set into a simplistic mold and used for widestroke examples. |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 613 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 08:30 am: |
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I would define a "cliché" as a vacuous and unoriginal overused statement which plays on a stereotype. Not to be anti-semitic here, but here's one I can thing of: It's a stereotype that Jewish people are greedy. It's a cliché to vehemently respond to some-one who suggests you're greedy, by saying "I'm not Jewish!". |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 67 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 01:49 pm: |
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"stéreotype" and "cliché" are two French nouns which originally refer to typography and mean the exact same thing: "a plate of metal where is engraved a drawing or picture which enables to print out a lot a copies". From this first definition is derived the more abstract meaning: "overused (and oversimplified) prejudiced idea" It is not possible, neither in French or in English, to differenciate the two words as "stereotype = idea" / "cliché = statement" because there are synonymous. I don't deny the fact that one can have a "feeling" that the two words mean two (slightly) different things, but this is due to the (inconscious) willingness to associate one particular word with one particular meaning. (Therefore synonyms tend to be "unsynonymized".) |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 189 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 03:20 pm: |
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French notwithstanding, I have to disagree with the statement that these terms are synonymous in English. The English connotation of stereotype is a collection of generalized characteristics applied usually to persons so that an entire group of persons is reduced to one type: For example: the stereotype Irishman is the red-nosed, clay pipe smoking, elfin character on the box of Lucky Charms, while the stereotypical American is the loud-mouthed, Texan in a ten gallon hat who eats raw beef at every meal. (without catsup) A cliché is a phrase or statement which has lost it's original effectiveness from overuse. Every cloud has a silver lining. |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 68 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 09:32 pm: |
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>>A cliché is a phrase or statement which has lost it's original effectiveness from overuse. First of all, that upon which a cliché is based never had any "original effectiveness" because it was biased from the very beginning. Second of all, It is possible to say that "so-and-so is such a cliché", which means that "cliché" can refer to a person (and not a phrase or a statement only)... and a "clichéd answer" is a "stereotypical answer"... What I am saying is not in contradiction with what is said by others above. If I were asked the question about French, I would first answer likewise because, in French too, "cliché" very often is used for a statement and "stéréotype" for a person or behaviour, especially in oral speech. But the fact is that there is no real frontier between these two words. I'd rather say that they may not be absolute synonyms, but that their meanings (and therefore usage) greatly overlap. |
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Davidoc
Member Username: Davidoc
Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 06:55 am: |
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Max wrote: > First of all, that upon which a cliché is based never had any "original effectiveness" because it was biased from the very beginning. That's not necessarily true. We can probably all agree that a phrase like "we must strike while the iron is hot" is now a cliché, but it is possible to imagine a time when this was a novel and thought-provoking metaphor, and even if that was not the case it doesn't make sense to say that it was "biased". There are plenty of clichés like "double-edged sword" and "nose to the grindstone" that could never be called "stereotypes" since it simply wouldn't make any sense. David |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 620 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 09:20 am: |
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quote:We can probably all agree that a phrase like "we must strike while the iron is hot" is now a cliché, but it is possible to imagine a time when this was a novel and thought-provoking metaphor, and even if that was not the case it doesn't make sense to say that it was "biased". I still take good meaning from that phrase! |
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Dáithí
Member Username: Dáithí
Post Number: 124 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 01:40 pm: |
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I disagree that we all agree that "we must strike while the iron is hot" is now a cliché. A better term than cliché would be an "old saying." "Old" as in "good and having survived the test of time." I think it depends alot on the audience, whether it's one or many people, when using sayings. Some people have no imagination and become annoyed if somebody uses sayings. Others love to hear and use sayings. It adds color to our language, whether it's Irish, English, French, etc. That's "my two cents." .....there goes another old saying. :) Dáithí |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 71 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 04:57 pm: |
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Unless I'm mistaken concerning English (but Dáithí's comment suggests otherwise), "to strike while the iron is hot" ("battre le fer tant qu'il est chaud" in French) could not be termed a "cliché": it's a proverb. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1651 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 04:38 am: |
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No. It's a cliché - because it has been used too much, and often inappropriately. It's a proverb too of course. And a metaphor! |
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Dáithí
Member Username: Dáithí
Post Number: 125 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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Perhaps "Cliché is in eye of the beholder." How's that for one "cliché" inside of another? :) Anyway, is there a similar phrase in Irish for "strike while the iron is hot?" And if so, is it also relegated to "cliché" status or is it "cliché free?" |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 191 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 07:27 pm: |
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A man on the bus had his eye on a seat and a fat lady sat on his eye. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1655 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 04:17 am: |
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Cliste, a Phádraig. The only thing I can think of with regard to hot iron is "tapaigh an deis". The etymology is left to more learned persons, but it means "seize the opportunity" |
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Maidhc_Ó_g
Member Username: Maidhc_Ó_g
Post Number: 41 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 04:11 pm: |
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Gheibheann cos ar siúl rud éigin. A moving leg gets something. - From the Daltaí proverbs. Another way of saying 'Shake a leg', I'd guess. |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 192 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 07:59 pm: |
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The only thing I can think of with regard to hot iron is "tapaigh an deis". The etymology is left to more learned persons, but it means "seize the opportunity" Aha! There's that "carpe diem" that cropped up awhile back. Strike when the carp is caught. Imeartas focal! Very punny. (Message edited by pádraig on July 19, 2005) |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1657 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 04:04 am: |
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a Punann is the lowest form of wheat.
punann [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh] dornán arbhair faoi cheangal. |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 193 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 09:15 pm: |
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I suspect the beard on Aonghus' face serves to conceal the tongue in cheek. Can't be that low a form when it comes to trans-lingual punning. A handful of corn (faoi cheangal.) How does that last part translate? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1659 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 04:34 am: |
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Tied. A Punnan is the bunch of corn cut by the reaper and tied by the person following them. Apparently it is also, in some parts of Ireland, Hiberno English for a fine woman. I lifted the pun from Diarmaid Ó Muirthile, who had it from Niall Toibín. (The actor, rather than the singer). |
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Pádraig
Member Username: Pádraig
Post Number: 194 Registered: 09-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
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Hence the punnán, Ruth of Biblical fame following behind the reapers dropping punnams to be gleaned. Punnám ndiaidh punnám. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1665 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 05:34 am: |
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Bailíonn punann punanna....agus brobh beart. |
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