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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (September-October) » Archive through September 06, 2005 » Pimsleur Language CDs - Irish « Previous Next »

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Frank Dalton
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chara...

For a rank beginner, myself that is, who has been considering an Irish language teacher, would there be any harm done by starting basic Irish with the so-called Pimsleur method of CD lessons? Is anyone familiar with the Pimsleur language courses?

Slán,
Frank Dalton

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 710
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

No harm at all if you have plenty of money to spend :-) For every word you learn, you pay more than ten times as much as with other courses.

Pimsleur:
Price: 14.00
Number of words in the course: about 100
Grammar explanations: none

Learning Irish:
Price: 40.00
Number of words in the course: about 2000
Grammar explanations: complete

But the little material that there is on the tapes is very well done. And in my own dialect, so I really should not recommend against it.

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

But the little material that there is on the tapes is very well done.



Well said. I would just add that the reason I feel that the material is well done is its interactive nature. That is, after learning one of the basic aspects of Irish, you're part of a dialog where you're answering questions in Irish. If you've learned the material, the questions are easy to answer. So, it helps your confidence in beginning Irish.

Dáithí

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 400
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 09:13 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I actually recommend it as a good springboard...it'll get you speaking a decent amount and quickly...I think you'll find that your retention of the material will be better and faster...and as there is *no* written material, you can literally do them any time you're in the car for longer than 30 minutes...

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 711
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 07:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I agree with both of you, but would still point out that there are 30 (or even more) lessons in Learning Irish, and one single lesson in that books contains more words than the whole Pimsleur series. Another thing is that you will not be able to convere in Irish after using Pimsleur, but you will know a few basic phrases that you can start the conversation in before turning to English.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 402
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 09:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I disagree you won't be able to converse...I mean, you won't be having any in-depth conversations, but you'll be able to discuss how you're doing, short term plans etc...and they teach you enough alternate stuff that you can rearrange what you know into new sentences (much like buntús)

I think, because of the context and repetition (which is how one learns english as an infant) it will "stick" better and faster - making the book courses that much easier

and it does introduce grammatical concepts such as lenition and eclipsis, without telling you that's what it is (tuigeann/ní thuigeann/an dtuigeann)

do a lesson every other day and you'll be ready to move on in two weeks, and you'll have a foundation

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Asarlaí
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Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Learning Irish is not a good course for beginners unless you are a very studious type who doesn't require any fun at all while you're learning. Secondly, it hasn't standardised its spelling so is out of step with all the modern courses and the Irish language's aspirations of revival in the 21st century..

Teach Yourself Irish is the course I'd recommend.
It's updated every few years and is very user friendly.

le meas
Asarlaí

http://www.teachyourself.co.uk/lirish.htm

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john balco
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Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I am a first time user and have very basic Irish. I have used Pimsleur leaning another language and found it to be exceelent. However, I think it would be very confusing to anyone who does not have a basic understading of Irish grammer etc.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 714
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine, a chara - I disagree with your disagreement :-)

In order to be able to converse, one has to be able to understand what the other person says. And unlike someone just happens to say exactly the phrases on the tape (very few phrases), the learner is lost.

But again, I'm not recommending against using Pimsleur as a start. I'm just saying that it's something I would borrow, not buy.

To John Balco. Some Pimsleur courses, such as Russian, Portuguese or French have 90 lessons. Many have 30 lessons, but Irish has only 8.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 420
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 04:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

see, i found that the cds taught phrases, but, like buntus cainte, taught options in how to complete the phrase. That you didn't just learn the phrase on the tape, but one or two other ways of saying different things using the same basic sentence structure. Granted, no conversation method will be perfect when compared to more comprehensive things, but if it's enough to get the student saying SOMEthing and spark enough interest to go on and take a class then it's done its job

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 09:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The Pimsleur Irish course is one of the few available in which you can get recordings read by Munster speakers. That said, I find its lack of written material and grammar explanations a serious drawback -- drawbacks that an experienced learner can overcome, but I'd never recommend this course for a beginner.

Silly question -- I don't suppose any of you reading this might have done up a transcript of the Pimsleur recordings? I'd enjoy it a lot more if I could read along. The excessive repetition would still drive me nuts, of course.

Le meas,
Cionaodh Mac Peadar


http://www.gaeilge.org

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 421
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 10:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I did transcripts of the initial conversations of the 8 lessons

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine, a chara, any chance you'd consider posting your transcript . . . or else sending it to interested folks?
Apart from the circa-1960 version of Teach Yourself Irish, this new Pimsleur course is the only mass-produced course I know of which focuses on the Munster dialect. It would be lovely to read along while listening to the audio.

Although the repetition can be annoying, the Pimsleur course is nice as far as it goes, though I agree with Jonas that there are far too few words and phrases in it compared to other comparably priced courses. It's not even quite as in-depth as the "Language/30" CDs (mainly because those don't keep repeating things, so you're moving along to the next item fairly quickly).

Here's the major failing of the Pimsleur method, i mo thuairim -- any course that only teaches you to hear and speak -- but not read & write -- is, in essence, making you a somewhat sociable but entirely illiterate Irish speaker. My apologies to anyone who's had success with the Pimsleur course (i.e. as-is, sans transcript), but it seems to me that travellers need more than basic conversation skills . . . how about being able to read road signs, for starters? Are they supposed to sound things out as they zoom past the signs . . . and hope for the best? Dia linn!

But if the Pimsleur course is just a first step for you, and if you then add other, more comprehensive courses (that include reading and writing) to your library, you'll do fine. It's just, it seems to me, not fantastic as a stand-alone product. But it *is* a nice sampling of Munster Irish.

My tuppence.

Le meas,
Cionaodh Mac Peadar


http://www.gaeilge.org

P.S. - a little off-topic, but there's a nice simple reader (lavishly illustrated) called "An Bho Riabhach", recently published, which includes a CD, and the reader speaks in Munster Irish. If you like Munster Irish, check with your favourite dealer for this book. It's great for kids, too.

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Phouka
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Username: Phouka

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I would like to second the request for transcripts of the lessons in the Pimsleur Irish set -- I'm using it solely as "practice" while commuting (mostly I'm using Irish On Your Own) and I'm finding the dialect somewhat incomprehensible. (Apologies to the many Munster speakers here, but so far, I've only been exposed to Ulster Irish and I'm broadening my horizons!)

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Rómán
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Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Help with this set needed!!!

There are some things that really puzzle me about this course. But let's go point by point.

Slender m [m']: there are two speakers and I am under impression that the woman sometimes does not make slender -m in verbal endings (although not the men), e.g. she is saying at times as if spelled "tuigiom" instead of "tuigim". Is it just my imagination?

Slender l [l'] - I am almost sure that I hear broad [l] from the male speaker in words like "bhfuil" [vil], thoill [hol]. Any comments?

Broad [r] - what kind of sound is it? not trilled for sure, something very similar to real English sound. Is it OK for Irish to use English [r]?

Slender [r'] - on internet I have found suggestion that this sound is close to [zh] (as in "pleasure), other people said [ź] (Polish soft z), still others offered Czech [r^]. I hear completely different sound on CD - can you comment what YOU hear with your American ears. cause I can't possibly guess how you perceive this sound. (sound I hear is palato-alveolar trill, like Russian soft [r'])

Is mise le meas,
Rómán

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 726
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Rómán, did you get my message in July before the whole discussion about the old TYI was deleted. (Don't ask me why it was, I have no idea)

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Rómán
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Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 07:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas, a chara!

Tá bron orm. Nope, didn't get anything :(( What was there?

Le meas,
Rómán

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 445
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

" any course that only teaches you to hear and speak -- but not read & write -- is, in essence, making you a somewhat sociable but entirely illiterate Irish speaker."


well....any course that tries to do everything without a teacher is fighting an uphill battle. I think it does well enough for what it does...

now, that having been said, they never finished the irish courses. pimsleur offers different types of courses. the 8 lesson ones are usually called "quick and easy X" while the 90 lesson ones come with a book and are called "speak and read X" or something. I don't have the 90 lesson ones firsthand, but I have heard lessons from the middle of the italian ones that call for reference to a book.

for 8 little 30min lessons it's not half bad...especially since it only costs $20. I've found using it with my mother and father that the acquisition level is greater due to the approach than other taped lessons. It teaches you some useful interactions and common question/answers, and enuff vocab that you have some ability to construct answers not specifically featured using the framework of the original answer from an earlier lesson, which also sets it apart from the others.

Honestly, when i first tried them, i hated them...didn't think they were worth a thing, but i've seen it work with older folks not accustomed to studying languages - and fast. my experiences with it have completely turned me around on the subject, and I do see value in it for non-speakers looking to take that first (or second or third-ish) step by investing their commuting time which would otherwise be wasted.

In addition, I think something like buntús confuses english speakers trying to learn...the biggest complaint i get from people i'm trying to start on the language is that (to english speaking eyes) nothing sounds the way it looks on the page. I have partially circumvented that in many instances by preparing the literature using the modern roman font, but the dot accent instead of the 'h'...which is the biggest offender when it comes to creating 'faux-amis' with the phonetics. Those i started on the dot have had not a single hiccup when it comes to later reading things printed the standard way (ie, it is easier to go from dot to H than from H to dot) and they managed to pick up the phonetics faster and with far less frustration since they weren't looking at common english phonemes and trying to remember alien phonetics.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 728
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Rómáin, a chara

I said that I'm not in Helsinki at the moment and that my sound files are there. The other participant in that the discussion was the man I got the recordings from. In my understanding, they have been published independently from the book and there is no copy-right on them.

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Rómán
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Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 04:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Jonais, a chara!

I was referring not to TYI, but to Pimsleur's CD ;))

So the points I was asking about were related to Pimsleur. In general, I find the set brilliant as a pronunciation workshop. Such things as sandhi, svarabkhti (is it spelled this way???) and elision are really good to listen to. And as things are repeated over and over you really get to understand how "tá an bóthat Ard thall ansan" makes for [tA:n bo:h@r A:rd @nsAn]. I listened to the tapes once more, and:

in the word 'an tsráid' I almost hear "s", or it is such strong aspiration of "t" misleading me?

thoill is pronounced "thaill" [ha:l'] by the woman. The guy says [ho:l] (with broad l!) though. Is it dialectal variation? I thought it is Ulster's stuff - a/o variation?

the word "thall" is used with ansan. why is it needed? for me "thall ansan" is the same as "ansud", just being literal translation of English "over there". And pronunciation is strange - they say [ha:l], although [haul] should be expected in Kerry.

the lady says [l'im] for "liom". In all my books (O'Cuiv, Doyle, Sjoestedt) - this is [l'um] or at least [l'om]. Is it ok to say [l'im]? Did anyone hear such pronunciation in real life?

In the end of 3rd lesson the lady says something akin to [to l'imse <..> gelin' vAh @gut] Is it possible that she's saying "Is dóigh liomse go bhfuil Gaelainn maith agat"? I mean is it possibel that "is dóigh" is contracted to [to:], cause I can't find any other viable transcript of this phrase. The translation is "It seems to me that you speak Irish well".

One of the last questions concerns the copula in interrogative form. In LI and in Doyle authors write that before a vowel the "an" is pronounced as [@b] as in "An é Meiriceánach é?", or in "mise, an eadh?". But on the tape I could hear clearly [an a], with [n], not [b]. So what is normal pronounciation in Kerry?

is mise Rómán, le meas

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Nicole Apostola
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Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

(1) a Phouka -- Antaine did an excellent job of transcribing the conversations from Pimsleur. Cionaodh and I had been meaning to do this, along with a vocabulary list (because not all vocabulary and phrases learned are contained in the initial conversation) as well as a few grammar points. We're hoping to have this done within the next few months (and then post onto gaeilge.org). If you'd like a copy when we're done (I've only really finished lesson one at this point), please let me know.

(2) in re: the pluses and minuses of Pimsleur. I think this would probably be a better course if it had about thirty or sixty more lessons. My biggest problem (besides the course length) is that once you're done with it, you've really nowhere else to go. It's Munster-based, so if you pick up something like the new TYI or even Buntús, you may ask yourself if this is even the same language. The course materials don't even warn you about what dialect it is -- it would be like taking a course in Moroccan Arabic and then expecting to be able to communicate with someone in Lebanon.

While Irish spelling is confusing, if someone's going to pursue the language at all, he needs to know how things are spelled. (I myself have a strong dislike for being illiterate.) It would help to see things written out so that, once you've moved on to another course, you can at least know how Go raibh maith agat is spelled.

(3) the Dillon TYI recordings. All I will say about this is that Cionaodh has tried contacting Gael-Linn, who originally printed the LPs, *numerous* times (starting in the eighties, when he originally began looking for the recordings) first about acquiring them and then about the copyright information. He has never received a response. I'm looking into the Irish copyright law about this. In the meantime, if anyone knows someone at Gael-Linn who we might be able to contact about the copyright status of the TYI recordings, we would greatly appreciate it.

GRMA
Nicole Apostola
(Cionaodh's wife)

www.gaeilge.org

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Rómán
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Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Quote: {The course materials don't even warn you about what dialect it is}

This reminds me of warning on McDonalds' cup of coffee (after infamous suit): "Attention! This cup contains extremely hot coffee." Comm'n guys, relax! Munster's Irish isn't some kind of lepra that you have to be warned of ;)) By the same token BBC Irish doesn't warn that they promote Ulster Irish. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what kind of dialect it is. If (big if unfortunately) Irish is ever revived and becomes a national language then some kind of supradialectal koine will emerge anyway. Just wait and see.

On the other point - I completely agree, that's a pity the course is so short, some +60 lessons more would make any harm. ;))

p.s. doesn't anyone have this course? am i alone in my bewilderment about some points "thall ansan"? ;|

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Rómán
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Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Gabh mo leithscéal! In the second paragraph i meant would NOT make any harm, mhuise!!!

Le leithscéal,
Rómán

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Nicole Apostola
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Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 11:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm actually quite partial to the Munster dialect, so I didn't mean for my "warning" to be taken in that way. It's just that someone who is an absolute beginner deserves to know a bit about the differences before going much further in his studies (or -- God forbid --before showing up in Connemara and having someone tell him his Irish is all wrong!). Someone picking up this course would think that he's learning some sort of "standard" language, and that's not the case.

As for the course, I do have it, but I would have to defer to someone who is more of an expert than I on the bizarre pronunciation. Your question about the end of the third lesson is the same one I have; at some point I'll have Cionaodh listen and make sense out of it.

Nicole

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Rómán
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Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

picking up this course would think that he's learning some sort of "standard" language, and that's not the case.

A Nicole, a chara!

This is one of the commonest mistakes people make! Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO) is not a literary standard - it is a set of guidelines issued for the sole purpose of levelling of Dáil's interpreters' work, to make it more consistent. It was never meant to be used outside of bureaucratic apparatus. Even if we accepted CO as a standard, it doesn't say us anything about pronunciation. As CO was meant for written work it never stated anything about pronunciation. But! Notwithsranding all deficiencies CO is true to some real dialectal forms and spellings (albeit with too strong reliance on Conamara Irish, ignoring too often Dún na nGnall and Mhumhan's options) The same cannot be said about Lárchanúint - a compelte scam and mock of Irish language. Some point of Lárchanúint are completely fictional and not found in any dialect - really a rape of Gaelainn.

Example: tense "L" and "N" versus lax "l" and "n". All Irish dialects find this distinction necessary, although it is realised in different ways. In Munster old consonants have been lost, but there "tenseness" was transferred to vowels making them long or even diphtongs. In Ulster the latter are short as tense vowels still exist. Conamara is in between - mostly following Ulster, but sometimes going after Munster way.
So you have:

cinnte - [k'ain't'i] (Rinn), [k'i:n't'i] (Ciaraí), [k'i(:)N't'i] (Connacht), [k'iN't'i] (Maigh Eo, Dún na nGall).

simple, an eadh? Ach sa Lárchanúint it is completely different [k'in't'i] - so neither "n" is tense, nor vowel ir lengthened/diphtongised. Actually Lárchanúint pronounciation is not existant outside of Foclóir Póca ar bith!!! This is the reason the native speakers never accepted this monstrosity.

Is mise Rómán,
Le meas as Liotuáin

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 729
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Rómáin, a chara

Unfortunately I don't have the Pimsleur course so I can't listen to it. The things you say do make sense - to take but one example, I've never heard liom [l´im]. [l'om], [l'um] and [l'@m] often enough, but never [l'im]


A Nicole, I would not agree with this.

"The course materials don't even warn you about what dialect it is -- it would be like taking a course in Moroccan Arabic and then expecting to be able to communicate with someone in Lebanon"

The difference between Moroccan Arabic and Levantine Arabic cannot be compared to the differences between Irish dialects. I've been speaking Munster Irish in the Connemara Gaeltacht for months and everyone has understood me perfectly well. I did not run into any problems during a shorter stay in Gaoth Dobhair either.

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Nicole Apostola
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Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 01:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

While it's true that someone might be able to understand *you* just fine, if you'd been a beginning Irish speaker who'd just listened to this course, you would certainly not be able to understand anyone who's not a Munster speaker. (Granted, you wouldn't have that many words to understand much of what a Munster speaker would say, but that's another story.)

Communication is a two-way street. I probably wouldn't automatically know what "Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú?" means if all I'd learned was "Conas tá tú?" The the native speaker might understand me just fine; but if I'd just taken this course, the person saying "Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú?" to me might as well be speaking Arabic.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Scríobh Rómán:

>In the end of 3rd lesson the lady says
>something akin to [to l'imse <..> gelin'
>vAh @gut] Is it possible that she's saying
>"Is dóigh liomse go bhfuil Gaelainn maith
>agat"? I mean is it possibel that "is dóigh"
>is contracted to [to:], cause I can't find
>any other viable transcript of this phrase.
>The translation is "It seems to me that you
>speak Irish well".

"Dar liomsa tá Gaelainn ana-mhaith agat"
(Dar is a defective verb)

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 07:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Scríobh Jonas:

>The difference between Moroccan Arabic
>and Levantine Arabic cannot be compared
>to the differences between Irish dialects.
>I've been speaking Munster Irish in the
>Connemara Gaeltacht for months and everyone
>has understood me perfectly well. I did
>not run into any problems during a shorter
>stay in Gaoth Dobhair either.

Jonas, a chara, I suspect you've a pretty good ear for Irish of any dialect, even if you prefer Munster; and I've found from experience that the longer one studies Irish, the more likely that this is the case. But such is often not the case with beginners. We should remember that "graduates" of the Pimsleur Irish course have mastered a very limited vocabulary that consists entirely of Munster pronunciations and a bit of Munster idiom. *Of course* a Connemara or Donegal speaker will understand something said by such a person. But that unfortunate beginner, if he/she has had no other Irish classes/courses, will find themselves understanding less when travelling in the west or north than they would have in Kerry - beginners usually do not have the trained "ear" that we lifers have acquired over the years. The beginner would probably also not understand much in Kerry either, as the Pimsleur course is very VERY basic. But they'd be better equipped for travelling in Kerry than anywhere else, I suppose. Just don't ask them to read road signs or a menu. ;-)

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 730
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 03:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde, you are quite right - it would be almost impossible for a beginner who has used the Pimsleur course to communicate in Connacht or Ulster. But as you both point out, it would be as impossible in Kerry. :-) There is nothing wrong in using Pimsleur to learn some phrases, but no one can use just Pimsleur and hope to be able to carry out even the most basic conversation in Irish.

On the other hand, someone who has completed Learning Irish can confidently go to any Gaeltacht and start speaking Irish. I'm quite sure that it's possible, for that's what I did myself. :-) I did not understand "tigh" the first time I saw it, and I was a bit annoyed that everyone failed to pronounce "anso" as "anseo"... Most of all, I was wondering why the guide on one tour constantly was speaking about her "clown" (clann). But despite these small surprises, I never had any problems understanding or communicating, and it did not take that long before I started to speak with the Kerry accent myself.

I only reacted against the use "warning". It could be used in any language - no one "warned" us in school that we were learning RP English. In almost any language, beginners will be sure to meet people who use a different form than the one they have learned themselves.

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Rómán
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 03:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonais, a chara!

Can you please comment on these points:

the word "thall" is used with ansan. why is it needed? for me "thall ansan" is the same as "ansud", just being literal translation of English "over there". And pronunciation is strange - they say [ha:l], although [haul] should be expected in Kerry.

Broad [r] - what kind of sound is it? not trilled for sure, something very similar to real English sound. Is it OK for Irish to use English [r]?

Slender [r'] - on internet I have found suggestion that this sound is close to [zh] (as in "pleasure), other people said [ê] (Polish soft z), still others offered Czech [r^]. I hear completely different sound on CD - can you comment what YOU hear with your American ears. cause I can't possibly guess how you perceive this sound. (sound I hear is palato-alveolar trill, like Russian soft [r'])

One of the last questions concerns the copula in interrogative form. In LI and in Doyle authors write that before a vowel the "an" is pronounced as [@b] as in "An é Meiriceánach é?", or in "mise, an eadh?". But on the tape I could hear clearly [an a], with [n], not [b]. So what is normal pronounciation in Kerry?

Le meas

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Jonas
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 04:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Rómáin, a chara!

Before I answer, I should say that there is nothing "American" with my ears. :-) (I've never even been to America). My phonological inventory is firmly rooted in Swedish & Finnish, even though English, German and French entered at a quite early stage.

"thall ansan" is a quite common expression, and I would probably use it myself instead of "ansúd". I haven't heard "tá sé ansúd" that often, but "tá sé thall ansan" often enough. I agree with you about the pronunciation. [ha:l] sounds like Conamara to me (though it would be [ha:L] there). [haul] is the version used in Kerry.

The question about using English [r] is a bit tricky. The English [r] is definitely different from the original Irish one. 100 years ago, there was also quite a difference between English [t] & [d] and Irish [t] & [d] but that difference seems to be disappearing. By constantly being exposed to English, it is no surprise that some English sounds are making their way into Irish. It does not even have to mean that Irish is in decline. As you know, Finnish and Swedish are much more different between themselves than Irish is, but the sounds used are not very different. The same goes for Basque and Spanish. In my ears, the original Irish [r] sounds more pleasing, but I would not go as far as saying that it's wrong to use an English-sounding [r], because there are even native speakers who might do that.

The slender [r'] is not what I would call [zh]. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with Polish and Czech to know how similar those sounds are. My Russian is much better, but far from perfect. At any rate, I would definitely place the Irish [r'] closer to the soft Russian [r] than to "s" in "pleasure".

The normal Kerry pronunciation of the interrogative form of the copula is to use [b] before vowels.

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Rómán
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 08:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, mo chara, a Jonais!

And I wanna share my joy with everybody! With providence's help I have my copy of original TYI!!!!!!!! Is maith é liom! I am so excited. Tá uile go leor agam anois!

One question from grammar: Why is it correct to say - Cár mhaith leatsa ithe? ach Cad ba mhaith leatsa ithe? why ba doesn't change in second phrase?

Le meas,
Rómán as Liotuáin

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Antaine
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 10:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

alright...this is going to sound stupid..but ansan? I'd only ever learned ansin and can find it listed no other way in any of my dictionaries...

...scratch that...as I'm typing I found it in Ó Dónaill...it just points to ansin. where is ansan used? is the altered spelling simply to conform to the slender/broad spelling rule? I didn't think that applied to compound words...

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Aonghus
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 10:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cúige Mumhan.

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Cionaodh
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Scríobh Rómán:

>>One question from grammar: Why is it correct
>>to say - Cár mhaith leatsa ithe? ach Cad ba
>>mhaith leatsa ithe? why ba doesn't change in
>>second phrase?

Perhaps someone knows a different idiom for these, but I learnt "Cár mhaith leatsa?" as meaning "Where would you like?" and "Cad ba mhaith leatsa?" as "What would you like?". Is there a grammar book that says these two mean the same thing? If so, this is something I have not seen before.

Le meas,
Cionaodh

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Jonas
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine, "ansan" is the original word and is still used in Munster. In other words, it is "ansin" that is in an altered spelling. :-)
In Munster "seo" and "sin" are "so" and "san" after broad vowels.

An tigh seo agus an baile sin.
but:
An fear so agus an bhean san.

"Here" is of course "anso".

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Cionaodh
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Scríobh Antaine:

>>alright...this is going to sound
>>stupid..but ansan? I'd only ever
>>learned ansin and can find it listed
>>no other way in any of my dictionaries...
>>
>>...scratch that...as I'm typing I
>>found it in Ó Dónaill...it just points
>>to ansin. where is ansan used? is the
>>altered spelling simply to conform to
>>the slender/broad spelling rule?
>>I didn't think that applied to compound
>>words...

It's not just the Munster spelling -- they say it that way as well -- i.e., the "s" is broad, not slender. Also note:

anso = anseo
ansúd = ansiúd
so = seo

There are a few others I misremember which are like this as well.

Le meas,
Cionaodh

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Antaine
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

go raibh maith agat.

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Rómán
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Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chionaoidh, a chara!

quote:

I learnt "Cár mhaith leatsa?" as meaning "Where would you like?" and "Cad ba mhaith leatsa?" as "What would you like?".

Cinnte! Ach mo cheist bhí - why "ba" is changed to ar (hidden in cár=cá + ar), but not in the second phrase, why it isn't Cad ar mhaith leatsa? i mean "ar" is interrogative form of copula and cad ...? is question or is it not?

Le meas,
Rómán as Liotuáin

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Cionaodh
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Post Number: 9
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Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 09:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Scríobh Rómán:

>>Ach mo cheist bhí - why "ba" is changed
>>to ar (hidden in cár=cá + ar), but not in
>>the second phrase, why it isn't Cad ar
>>mhaith leatsa? i mean "ar" is interrogative
>>form of copula and cad ...? is question
>>or is it not?

A very interesting question -- which I'm embarrassed to admit I never thought about when I first learnt "cad ba" many years ago. I simply learnt it by rote and didn't think much about it after that. Your question has caused me to examine it more closely.

I've had a peek at many of the grammar books I own, and all were silent on this issue. I'm sure there's one book in my many dozens that explain this oddity, but I wasn't able to find it in any of the more logical sources I searched. But thinking about it a bit, I have a wee hypothesis -- which I trust my betters will tear apart if I err. But here goes . . .

As to why Cá and Cad are treated differently . . . absent any explicit help from the grammars (and I may get into some trouble with the better linguists about this), I might observe that with other verbs, Cá behaves differently than Cad, Cé, Conas, etc. in that Cá needs a dependent form of the verb (bhfuil, raibh, ndeachaigh, ndearna, etc.). The other question particles require a relative/independent form (atá, a bhí, a chuaigh, a rinne, etc.). So we have a situation already where Cá is handled differently than other question particles with other verbs. This dichotomy seems to hold true in the copula as well:

Cár mhaith leatsa a ithe?

but:

Cad ba mhaith leatsa a ithe?
Cé ba mhaith leatsa a fheiceáil?
Cathain ba mhaith leatsa a dhul?
Conas ba mhaith leatsa a dhul?

I realise that this proves nothing except by inference, that inference being simply that "cá" behaves differently than other question particles . . . but in the absence of a clear grammar citation, it's my best hypothesis.

Anyone have a better explanation?

A Rómán, my apologies for misunderstanding your question originally.

Le meas,
Cionaodh

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Cionaodh
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Post Number: 10
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Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 09:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Regarding "cár" and why it's used with the copula differently than other question particles . . . I just came across a site that addresses this somewhat:

http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm

It seems to be an English version of Lars Braesicke's website:
http://www.braesicke.de/gram.htm

Perhaps that will be a bit clearer than my ramblings. ;-)

Le meas,
Cionaodh

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Post Number: 690
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Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cén fear ba mhaith leat?
What man would you like?

Cén fear ar mhaith leat a iníon?
Which man's daughter would you like?

The difference here is something to do with "direct relative" or "direct particle" versus "indirect" (something along those lines). Lughaidh would be able to explain it better. It's like how you have the following:

Sin an fear a chanann an t-amhrán.
That's the man who sings the song.

Sin an t-amhrán a chanann an fear.
That's the song which the man sings.

But:

Sin an bhean a gcanann an fear fúithi.
That's the woman whom the man sings about.

or alternatively:

Sin an bhean faoina gcanann an fear.
That's the woman about whom the man sings.


The difference here is that the object is "indirect" (or something along those lines), that's why you've got an urú instead of a séimhiú, and why you have "ar" instead of "ba".

What causes the object to be "indirect"? Either posession or a preposition.

preposition = with, to, for, about, under, beside...

That's the song I listen to.
Sin an t-amhrán a n-éistim leis.
Sin an t-amhrán lena n-éistim.

That's the man whose daughter I like.
Sin an fear a dtaitníonn a iníon liom.
Sin an fear ar mhaith liom a iníon.

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Rómán
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Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 12:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Fhir na mBróg, a chara!

It's all fine but there is no preposition involved in cá/cad example I gave about. So...?

Le meas,
is mise Rómán as Liotuáin

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Max
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Post Number: 99
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Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

When I have a little more time, I'll show you the different structures I came up with when dealing with the relatives (plus the conclusion, of course)

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Lars
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Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 02:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Ronáin, a Chionaoidh

quote:I realise that this proves nothing except by inference, that inference being simply that "cá" behaves differently than other question particles . . . but in the absence of a clear grammar citation, it's my best hypothesis.

Anyone have a better explanation?


No, that's perfectly right.

cad (what) + direct relative
cá (where) + indirecht relative

Cár : cá + past indirect relative particle ar, past tense copula understood = "where that was ...".
Cár mhaith leat ...
Cad ba is: cad + direct relative form of copula, past tense ba = "what that was ..."
Cad ba mhaith leat ...

Lars

(Message edited by lars on August 10, 2005)

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Robert
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Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Rómán,

“In the case of certain words ending in a consonant, the quality of the consonant is palatalised or velarised [that is, polarised to its opposite phoneme] according to the quality of the initial sound of the following word” (Muskerry (Cork), Ó Cuiv)

I suspect /l’/ is becoming /l/, but the two books on Muster Irish I have here (Ring & West Muskerry) do not have detail it. Ring has /l/ + /l’/ = /l’/.

As for /r/ not been too trilled, perhaps they used just a one tap /r/? I am of the opinion that rs are becoming less distinct than they once were. The r in English is retroflex (it turns back showing the under belly of the tongue to the roof mouth). It should not be in Irish.

In Buntús Cainte the slender rs seem similar to one allophone of r I make in speaking English (which is not retroflec, but alveolar), so I dunno what’s happening. The speakers on the CD use not always /r'/, but perhaps an allophone.

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Robert
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Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Rómán,

“In the case of certain words ending in a consonant, the quality of the consonant is palatalised or velarised [that is, polarised to its opposite phoneme] according to the quality of the initial sound of the following word” (Muskerry (Cork), Ó Cuiv)

I suspect /l’/ is becoming /l/, but the two books on Muster Irish I have here (Ring & West Muskerry) do not have detail it. Ring has /l/ + /l’/ = /l’/.

It would seem you are hearing the result of sandhi.

As for /r/ not been too trilled, perhaps they used just a one tap /r/? I am of the opinion that rs are becoming less distinct than they once were. The r in English is retroflex (it turns back showing the under belly of the tongue to the roof mouth). It should not be in Irish.

In Buntús Cainte the slender rs seem similar to one allophone of r I make in speaking English (which is not retroflec, but alveolar), so I dunno what’s happening. The speakers on the CD use not always /r'/, but perhaps an allophone.

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Robert
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Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 09:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Jhonas,
"100 years ago, there was also quite a difference between English [t] & [d] and Irish [t] & [d] but that difference seems to be disappearing"

Do you mean the Hiberno-English [t] & [d] or the Gaeilge one?

I know the alveolar d and t have been coming in for a few generations. I dunno why they should replace the dental versions. I utilise the dental versions in english speech. The English versions seem somewhat 'dark' to me; the gaelic is most definitly much more clearer.



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