This card has been issued with the agreement of An Garda Siochana in accordance with Regulations made by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform under section 40 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1988, in order to confirm that the person to whom it has been issued has attained the legal age for the purchase of intoxicating liquor. It does not confer on the holder the right of entry to any licensed premises.

Eisíodh an t-aoischárta seo le comhaontú an Gharda Síochana de réir Rialachán arna ndéanamh ag an Aire Dlí agus Cirt, Comhionnannais agus Athchóirithe Dlí faoi alt 40 den Acht Deochanna Meisciúla, 1988, d'fhonn a dhaingniú go bhfuil an aois dhlíthiúil chun deochanna meisciúla a cheannach slánaithe ag an duine ar eisíodh chuige nó chuici é. Ní thugann sé an ceart don sealbhóir dul isteach in aon áitreabh ceadúnaithe.

***

That's what's written on the back of my age card I got the other day. Pretty good written Irish, I was surprised to see such a high standard! Most written Irish you see on stuff from the Government is diabolical.

I'd never seen the term "d'fhonn" before; I looked it up and it means "in order to". Does anyone know what it's a contraction of? "de fhonn", "do fhonn" ?

fonn [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
toil do rud, mian, dúil.


d'fhonn (chun, le hintinn (d'fhonn fearg a chur air, d'fhonn is go dtiocfainn)).

---

Is minic guta ar lár roimh f

de atá i gceist, is dóigh liom

Just curious, what is the minimum legal drinking age in Ireland?

Dáithí

There are two levels 16 and 18, don't remember the details.

18 certainly for a pub.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/health/alcohol_and_drug_treatment_services/alcohol_and_t he_law.html.ga

Why aoischárta and not cárta aoise ? It would be more "Irish" and not a copy of the English word...

The drinking age in Ireland is 18, whether it be for the purchase/consumption/supply of alcohol.

The law doesn't mention 16 at all when it comes to alcohol.

That siad though, if you're on your own land, there's no laws stopping you from drinking regardless of your age. So for instance, let's say you're 36 and you're married with two kids, one aged 9 and the other aged 12, there's no law to say you can't give them alcohol in your own home. But then again, if you over-do it, you'll probably be done for child abuse. Similarly, you're allowed drink in public in Ireland (ie. there's no laws against it), but each individual county council outlines which areas in its constiuency that you're not allowed drink in public -- these area tend to encompass the whole county! (Perhaps there's a few areas, like beaches, where they allow it? I'm not sure)

***

Aoischárta Vs. Cárta Aoise


Lughaidh, I've argued your exact point many times, eg.:

seicleabhar Vs. leabhar seiceanna
fuilghrúpa Vs. grúpa fola

...but it always seems to fall on deaf ears.

It seems that if the noun which should be in the genetive is only one syllable long, and if the term originated from English, then it's likely to get prefixed to the main word. Who or where this started, I don't know...

Not to mention:

breithlá

which is well and truly accepted in the place of:

lá breithe

Do these words usually originate from within the Gaeltacht? If not, and assuming they are grammatically incorrect, I would assume that these words would seem unnatural to a native speakers ears. If so, wouldn't they be 'self corrected' out of the language over time. Any thoughts?

This is a recurrent argument.

It is a long established practice to coin portmanteau words in Irish by placing the adjective first and writing the words together.

That doesn't stop certain people jumping up and down everytime they come across a new example...

I can bear such unnatural words. In modern Irish, people don't use that when creating new words, or they wouldn't do if they didn't know English.

I know it doesn't make you jumping up and down, Aonghus, since it's used in the languages you know: Dublin Irish, English and German. It does make me jump because it doesn't exist in the languages i know best: Donegal Gaeltacht Irish, Breton and French.

dobharchú
dobhareach
anamchara
tréadlia
dubh-lomán (dúlamán)
dubhlinn
dubhghall
fionnghall
fionnghlaise
fionnuisce

all of those words are formed that way and have been in the language for centuries - in some cases since before English existed.

Your assertion that people wouldn't form words that way if they didn't know english is unprovable, since there is no Irish speaker in Ireland who does not speak english.

My assertion is that is perfectly valid to form portmanteau words that way, since it has been done that way since before english as a language existed.

I know it has been done for centuries, but the question is: is it still "productive" today ?

In Old English, it was possible to create very long words (as in German till today) by putting elements together. Is it possible to do that today? Could you say "unvoicedconsonantsgroup" (for example) in one word in English? Such compound word was possible once, but it isn't anymore.

For Irish it's the same problem: there are old words that are compounded like that, they're all right, but since it isn't productive anymore, one shouldn't do like that when creating new words.

But why isn't it productive? Why shouldn't the people with responsibility for creating new words, most of whom are deeper students of the language than you or I, validly choose an old irish idiom to create new words, with a meaning slightly different to that of the noun and adjective being combined?

>But why isn't it productive?

Because Gaeltacht speakers would never use that process for creating new words. That's what "productive" means in linguistics.

>Why shouldn't the people with responsibility for creating new words, most of whom are deeper students of the language than you or I,

that isn't a good argument: there are people who have many diplomas and who write nonsense things (I know loads). Many University professors say it. There are many words created by an Coiste Téamaíochta that are a simple copy of the English one, sometimes it's the English word with an Irish spelling. They even have not looked for any idiomatic and Irish way to translate. That's a shame, especially because they're paid for that and make official books and impose that to everybody through the irish language media.

>validly choose an old irish idiom to create new words, with a meaning slightly different to that of the noun and adjective being combined?

the problem is that they don't use that process (déterminant+déterminé) because it was used in Old Irish, but because it's closer to the English word, I think.

If u ask to an older Gaeltacht speaker how he would say agegroup in Irish, sure he would answer grúpa aoise or something like noun + aoise.

They say "pota gliomaigh" and not "gliomaighphota", they say "club oíche" and not "oíchechlub", they say "teach tábhairne" and not "tábhairnetheach" etc. In modern Gaeltacht Irish, you’ll find much compounds with déterminant+déterminé. That’s the way it is in natural modern Irish.

But we are talking about portmanteau words with a more specific meaning than simply déterminant+déterminé

i.e. aoischárta is not just any card giving information about a specific age, but a particular one.

quote:

the problem is that they don't use that process (déterminant+déterminé) because it was used in Old Irish, but because it's closer to the English word, I think

And my point is that there is no evidence for that, it is simply your opinion. There is of course no evidence for my opinion, either. But I have met some of the people involved in official translation, (not specifically An Choiste Téarmaíochta, but in the Dáil) and I know that they do care about producing genuinely Irish versions, and will try to compare with languages other than english if they can.

Also, I object (still) to your assertion that only Gaeltacht speakers can produce modern Irish versions.

The truth of the matter is that the number of speakers in the Gaeltacht is falling (25,000 according to Údarás na Gaeltachta), and most work in producing modern texts is happening outside the Gaeltacht.

There is, for example, (as far as I know), only one publishing house in the Gaeltacht - Cló Iar Chonnachta.

Of course the Gaeltacht is vital to the survival of the language, but to simply reject all speakers outside the Gaeltacht, as you frequently do, is not productive (in the ordinary meaning of the word).

Surely some of those producing these texts came from a Gaeltacht. Or perhaps, just as Lughaidh did, they studied in one. Does living outside the Gaeltacht invalidate your Irish? What about other languages? Where do you have to live in order to have perfect French,, English, Polish,etc.? I find it interesting that most of the input here on "correct" Irish comes from non-Irish people.To paraphrase an old saying: Those who can, do and those who can't, preach.

quote:

Surely some of those producing these texts came from a Gaeltacht. Or perhaps, just as Lughaidh did, they studied in one

almost certainly.

http://www.acmhainn.ie/coiste.htm

http://www.irish.ie/foras/default.asp?catid=50


http://www.irish.ie/foras/default.asp?lang=en&catID=50

Learning Irish without people from the traditional speakers (= people from the Gaeltacht) invalidate your Irish. You have to learn a language with native speakers if you want to really master it. It's not different for Irish.

>But we are talking about portmanteau words with a more >specific meaning than simply déterminant+déterminé

déterminant+déterminé isn't a meaning issue, but a process of composition.

>i.e. aoischárta is not just any card giving information >about a specific age, but a particular one.

cárta aoise as well.