DIPHTHONGS
ao au ae ai ái
ua ui úi u@
ou oi ói
ea eá eu éu eo eó ei éi
ia iu iú io ío i@
@i @u

TRIPHTHONGS
aoi
uai u@i
eái eoi
iai iui iúi

Hi to all,
here is a bank of diphthongs and triphthongs that different authors have listed in differing publications. I have collated them for the purpose of finding out their IPA or SAMPA codes. Some are simple, a few I know, and many are not clear, been used in some dialects, and not at all in others.

Any assistance and dialect origin appreciated.

A Robert, a chara,

Although I don't have any input at this time, I'm very interested in finding out about the results. I'm particularly interested in the dialectical variations, as I think it will help in understanding speakers from different regions. Regarding triphtongs, would "aei" be considered as one also, as in the word "Gaeilge?"

You may know this already and choose to use @ for the schwa symbol ə which is perfectly fine and readable, but if you'd like to include ə in your table, you enter the following:

1. The backslash character \

2 The following characters: char{601}

There should be no spaces between the "\" and "char{601}"

The reason I don't show the characters all together is that the end result would be ə and not the steps on how to do it.

Le meas,

Dáithí

By the way, Robert, what is SAMPLA?

Go raibh maith agat.

Dáithí

Dáithí,

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm
“SAMPA is a machine-readable phonetic alphabet”

Irish: dhá ~ γa:
Sampa: GQ:

There is no superiority in utilising SAMPA over IPA; however I thought I’d leave the option open to anyone using the extended code. The basic set is not suitable for Irish.

I am familiar with the schwa but used the modified IPA system simply to reach the widest audience.

Gaeilge in the form of /ge:l’g’@/ (as per the ‘standard’) is not a triphthong as one only finds /e:/ between /g/ and /l’/, where the spelling is ‘aei’. To my ear, there is a glide between the /g/ and the /e:/ not shown in the spelling. Also, something is happening between /e:/ and /l’/ like a /e:i/ diphthong or some form of glide. I know glides can occur between C and V (consonant to vowel as for example, in buí) at the same time as the initial stress lessens, but I do not know if it occurs from V to C.

Actually, that shows me that I wrote out the forms in a confusing fashion. They are more codified as:

ao au ae ai a:i
ua ui u:i u@
ou oi o:i
ea ea: eu e:u eo eo: ei e:i
ia iu iu: io i:o i@
@i @u

aoi
uai u@i
ea:i eoi
iai iui iu:i

Robert, you can use a table markup on this board - see

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/discus.pl?pg=formatting#tabl es

ao	au	ae	ai	a:i
ua	ui	u:i	u@
ou	oi	o:i
ea	ea:	eu	e:u	eo	eo:	ei	e:i
ia	iu	iu:	io	i:o	i@
@i	@u

aoi
uai	u@i
ea:i	eoi
iai	iui	iu:i

Robert, thanks for the clarification on "triphthong." I mistakenly thought that diphthongs and triphthongs were simply reductions of two or three vowels into something smaller, including a reduction to single vowel sound. I looked up the definition of "diphthong" and along with your response now realize that in order to be a dipthong, a "sliding" has to occur between vowels.

Your mention of the "standard" above prompts me to ask if including the "standard" pronunciation would be of any value in your table. I know it's not a dialect per se, but being able to compare to the "standard" spelling might be useful. Just a thought.

Go raibh maith agat,

Dáithí

a chairde:

for the dipthong aí as in piosaí (pieces)... is this always pronounced as í (ee) per Dineen, et al.? I thought I read or heard that it is occaionally audited as "ay" or "ae?" Though I probably mistaken.

Go raibh maith agaibh

dan

These aren't diphthongs nor triphthongs but bigraphs and trigraphs...

Diphthongs and triphthongs are PHONETICAL things, not written things. A diphthongs is a set of two vowel sounds one after another. A triphthong is a set of three vowel sounds. When you write "éist", there's no diphthong at all, but a bigraph (one sound that is represented in writing by two letters). There's only one sound : /e:/ (long "ay"-sound).
"Ua" is both a diphthong and a bigraph, because you hear two sounds /u@/ and you write two letters.

Bigraphs and trigraphs are SPELLING things.

In English, in the focal "style", you have a diphthong (you hear /stail/), but only one written vowel represents the "a-i" sound.

Píosaí has two bigraphs (ío and aí) but no diphthong at all because it's pronounced "peessee" (one vowel sound and one vowel sound).

Lughaidh a chara: thanks so much.

How about pronunciational variations with these BIGRAPHS? Are they all written in stone and pronopunced alike in all dialects?

For instance, how about the common bigraph "ea?" Is it always pronounced as the "a" in the English "sat?" (per the good Sagart Dineen.) Is there any regional variation?

Same with ai/...is it always pronounced i/ (ee)? Again I am curious if there is any dialectical variations with these common vowel sounds and bigraphs.



go raibh mi/le maith agat.

dan

Bigraphs aren't always pronounced the same way in all dialects and in all contexts. For example, is pronounced a bit like "ay" in Munster, like "ee" in Connaught and in parts of Donegal, and a bit like "ü" (like German ü, French u) in other parts of Donegal.

Some bigraphes aren't pronounced alike according they are in a stressed or unstressed syllable. Example: is /a/ in stressed syllables, /i/ most of the time in unstressed syllables.

"ea" is pronounced like the american "a" in "bad" in Connemara, and like regular "a" (as in French, Spanish etc) in other dialects.

Go raibh maith agat a Lughaidh...

This is very helpful.

Pax

DIPHTHONGS
ao au ae ai ái
ua ui úi u@
ou oi ói
ea eá eu éu eo eó ei éi
ia iu iú io ío i@
@i @u

TRIPHTHONGS
aoi
uai u@i
eái eoi
iai iui iúi

OR

ao au ae ai a:i
ua ui u:i u@
ou oi o:i
ea ea: eu e:u eo eo: ei e:i
ia iu iu: io i:o i@
@i @u

aoi
uai u@i
ea:i eoi
iai iui iu:i


both confuse spelling and sounds together...
see http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/13830.html?1117592305 for more details

Lughaidh & Max,
after posting I did realise my error by confounding the symbol and the sound. Consequently, I did not post any more.

I wonder:

where could one find a comprehensive explanation of the spelling conventions?

there is one in Learning Irish, but it's incomplete, and only related to Cois Fhairrge Irish...

I'm thinking something that would take into account the different dialects, and all the orthographic possibilities...

Max

I could do that... when i've time :-)

Actually, I believe the chart in the back of Learning Irish is for standard Irish. That's why the spelling of many of the words is different from the standard throughout the book. They're spelled the way they are pronounced in the dialect.
There's also indexIII which gives explanation of the different spelling along with inflection and eclipses and certain other words.

actually no,

it is quite clear that appendix 1 gives the key to the Cois Fhairrge pronunciation given the spelling.

appendix 3 indicates certain discrepancies that exist between Cois Fhairrge Irish and Standard Irish.

To my knowledge, there is no "Standard Irish pronunciation" per se.

I stand corrected. There is no standard pronunciation of Irish. Ó Siadhail explains this in his intro.

about "standard" :


a standard language is not a "natural language" because it's been created (standardized).

the grammar and lexicon are generally a mix of the different dialects that compose the language (one dialect being predominant).

only the prononciation cannot be created; therefore, the authorities choose the pronunciation of one particuliar dialect.

in France, the pronunciation of "Touraine", South of Paris, was decided to be the standard pronunciation. (of course, it was the one the king and court used to speak)

the history of Irish makes it improbable that one dialect chould be chosen over the others, considering the strengh of the dialects, and the fact that the language of the government is no particular dialect (like it was in France with Louis the 16th)

the history of Irish makes it improbable that one dialect chould be chosen over the others

a chairde: i was under the impression that Munster dialect was designated the unofficial standard after ca. 1923 and that Donegal or Ulster dialect, in particular, had been initially marginalized in the discourse. An Seabhac (sp?) for instance speaks of "two dialects" in his pronunication guide written ca. late 1950s.

The standard pronounciation is a mix between Connaught, Donegal and Munster, but mainly Connaught.


>Actually, I believe the chart in the back of Learning >Irish is for standard Irish. That's why the spelling of >many of the words is different from the standard >throughout the book. They're spelled the way they are >pronounced in the dialect.

Not exactly, for example, for mná, he writes mná and not mrá although it’s pronounced /mra:/ etc.

If everyone writes as he pronounced, it'd be a mess.

dá scríofainn-sa go dídheath mor a iaimneam, tae mea deanú na duiciú morán daoiní mea :-)

(=dá scríobhfainnse go díreach mar a fhuaimním, tá mé ag déanamh nach dtuigfeadh mórán daoine mé)

;-)

(Message edited by Lughaidh on June 12, 2005)

Tá mé ag déanamh go bhfuil tú ceart fá sin!