I'm curious, you-know when you have statements in English which involve "ing":

I was singing
I am playing the guitar
I am hitting the dog
I am seeking information

When is it in Irish that the noun isn't altered to its genetive form in these sentences? For instance, all of the following nouns are genetised (I don't care if that ain't it word, it still sounds good!):

Bhí mé ag bualadh an mhadra
Tá mé ag lorg eolais

I once though it was a pretty concrete rule that things followed by "ag + [verbal noun]" were altered to their genetive form. . . but then I came across:

Tá sé ag déanamh obair mhaith
Tá sé ag iarraidh bean dheas

The only thing I can see that the above two sentences have in common is that the noun is:

a) Indefinite (not preceeded by "the", nor naturally definite like "Seán")
b) Followed by an adjective

Given that, I'd hazard a guess that the following are correct:

Bhí mé ag lorg eolais
Bhí mé ag lorg eolas maith


Can anyone shed some light and clarify for me please?

Is cosúil go bhfuil an cheart agat, a FnaB:

Fch anseo: http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/verbnom1.htm#gensubst

Yup, absolutely correct. Now, I don't know about the formal grammar of the "standard" language but at least in Kerry Irish that is the case; nouns followed by an adjective are not put into the genitive.

Okay, so I've discovered that an adjective prevents genetisation... but what else does? How about a noun in the genetive:

a) ag déanamh obair scoile
OR
b) ag déanamh oibre scoile

Or how about a clause yokie:

a) ag lorg bean a chanann
OR
b) ag lorg mná a chanann

Or perhaps a preposition that follows it:

a) ag feiceáil capall ar chnoc
OR
b) ag feiceáil capaill ar chnoc

?

I'm actually liking all this intwined elaboratness! It sort of adds to the feel of a real au naturalle human language!

Pléann an nasc úd a thug mé thuas na níthe sin uilig. go bhfios dom. Ar fhéach tú air?

Tosnaíonn an lch anseo:
http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/verbnom1.htm

Agus an rud ar fad anseo:

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/gramadac.htm

I've just gone out to the "www.nualeargais.ie" website and I was wondering where you go to get into the "/gnag" section from the home page. (It looks like a real useful site!)

Never mind; I found it! Thanks anyway!

I wonder does this only apply to nouns following "ag + [verbal noun]"? For instance, there's a well known story in Irish called:

Fiosracht Mhná

which means "A woman's curiosity". If the story had been called "A nice woman's curiosity", would it be:

A) Fiosracht Mhná Deise
or
B) Fiosracht Bhean Dheas


My guess would be A but I'm open to correction!

I would think B. 'Mrá' is the genetive. So, if the genetive isn't used when followed by an adjective....

Very interesting site, by the way. It's opened up a whole set of phrasing that I'd thought of, but hadn't been sure about. And it also brings one that much closer to understanding the idiomatic forms.
Buíochas leat, a Aonghuis, do sin.

Maidhc.

Do Lars Braesicke (a chuir na leathanaigh le chéile) agus pé duine a chuir Béarla orthu atá an bhuíochas ag dul.

Buíochas [masculine, first declension].

An bhfuil aon rud dearfach le rá agatsa riamh? Táim chun neamhaird iomlán a dhéanamh díot as seo amach, muna bhfuil faic le déanamh agat ach a bheith ag tarraingt airde ar mo bhotúin fánacha cló.

Tá mé dubh dóite de bheith ’feiceáilt foghlaimeoirí a bhfuil muinín acu asat (go háiríd siocair gur minic a deireas tú gur cainteoir dúchais thú) nuair nach mbreacann tú abairt ar bith nach mbeadh meancóg (ar a laghad) inti.

Agus cuireann tú ’gáire mé ’s tú ’scríobh nach ndéanann tú ach meancógaí cló: meancógaí gramadaí a ghníos tú ’n t-am ar fad.

Má scríobhann tú "an bhuíochas" ciallaíonn sé go n-abrann tú é, muna ndéanfá ach meancógaí cló bheadh litreacha fánacha in áiteachaí eile. Ní minic a ghníos tú meancógaí cló ach ghníonn tú meancógaí gramadaí an t-am ar fad. Cad chuige? Tá sé i bhfad níos fusa scríobh i gceart ná labhairt i gceart siocair go mbíonn an t-am agat smaoitiú ar do chuid abairtí sula seolfá ’n teachtaireacht - cha bhíonn ’s tú ’labhairt. Má ghníonn tú meancógaí gramadaí ’s tú ’scríobh, ciallaíonn sé go ndéanann tú i bhfad níos mó meancóg aríst agus tú a’ caint.

Is cainteoir dúchais Béarla thú. Mar sin cha ndéanann tú meancógaí i mBéarla. Más cainteoir dúchais Gaeilge thú, cad chuige a ndéanann tú meancógaí an t-am ar fad ins an teangaí sin? nach bhfuil sin aisteach??

Ba chóir duit admháil go ndéanann tú meancógaí ’s nach bhfuil do chuid Gaeilge rócheart ’s mar sin cha bheadh muinín ag na foghlaimeoirí asat fá dtaobh don chruinneas teangtha - amannaí is féidir go dtig fadhbannaí móra de sin, mar shampla nuair a iarrtar Gaeilg a chur ar abairt fá choinne tattoo a dhéanamh - bheadh abairt mhícheart Ghaeilge ar a’ chraiceann acu go mbeidh a bport seinnte...

Sé ’n chomhairle a chuirim ort bheith níos modhúil agus stad de bheith ’ráidht gurb í ’n Ghaeilg do theangaí dhúchais: chan féidir le duine ’bith sin a ráidht ach le lucht na Gaeltachta a tógadh le Gaeilg agus a bhfuil Gaeilg sa mhuintir acu leis na céadtaí fada - daoiní a ghéanfadh meancógaí litrithe b’fhéidir ach chan meancógaí gramadaí ’s mar shampla, a bhfuil ’s acu an focal firinscneach nó baininscneach atá i "ceart" nó i "buíochas" !!!
Agus scríobh thíos in áit an sínithe gur féidir go dtearr tú meancóg in do chuid teachtaireachtaí.

Cibé ar bith, go bhfios domh níl ann ach duine amháin ar na fóraim nach ndéanann meancóg ar bith am ar bith: Seosamh Mac Muirí.

Gabh mo leithscéal as mo ghairbhe ach tá sé fíorthuirsiúil theacht a cheartú do chuid freagraí i dtólamh go háiríd nuair a hiarradh aistriúchán agus a thug tú abairt lán de mheancógaí.

Maithfidh Dia domh, is ar son na Gaeilge a ghním sin.


Adh mór

Bheadh meas éigin agam ort dá mbeadh freagra tugtha agatsa ar iarratas anseo riamh. Ach is fearr leat a bheith ag iarraidh cruthú go raibh an ceart agat in argóint liomsa atá thart le fada.

Ós rud é go bhfuil meas agat ar Sheosaimh, mholfhainn dhuit an méid a bhí le rá aige ar an gceist úd a athléamh.

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/show.pl?tpc=21&post=19660#PO ST19660

Níor mhaígh mise riamh go raibh mo chuid Gaeilge gan locht. Agus cuirim ar shúile dhaoine é sin freisin. Táim breá sásta go gceartofaí aon leagan a thugaim do dhuine.

Ach ní bhíonn le feiscint uaitse ach clamhsán agus sotal.

(Message edited by aonghus on May 26, 2005)

Dear Fear na mbrog, I can understand everything you say to me in English, but your grammar is all over the place. I am no expert myself, but, I will try and help you in this depatment, as you are probably a monolingual native irish speaker. So lets start from the beginning:

Can anyone shed some light and clarify for me please?

Can anyone shed some light on this and clarify it for me please?

When is it in Irish that the noun isn't altered to its genetive form in these sentences? For instance, all of the following nouns are genetised (I don't care if that ain't it word, it still sounds good!):

Why does it occur in Irish, that the noun is not changed to the genetive form in these sentences? For instance, all of the following nouns are put into the genetive case (I don't care if that isn't a word, it still sounds good to me!):

it continues;


The only thing I can see that the above two sentences have in common is that the noun is:

In my opionion the only thing the two sentences above have in common is that the noun is:


I'm actually liking all this intwined elaboratness! It sort of adds to the feel of a real au naturalle human language!

I wont even start here. Still hope I was some help FNM.

The spotted one.

quote:

Sé ’n chomhairle a chuirim ort bheith níos modhúil agus stad de bheith ’ráidht...

níos modhúla

Nach ea?

quote:

Agus scríobh thíos in áit an sínithe gur féidir...

in áit an tsínithe

Nach ea?

Botúin ghramadaí iad seo, ní botúin litrithe atá iontu.

Caithfidh mé fiafraí, a Lughaidh, cén fáth gurb i do chanúint féin a scríobhann tú? Labhraíonn (nó Labhrann) daoine mar atá uatha, agus tuigimid a chéile, ach dar le scríobh, tá caighdeán againn chun gur féidir linn ár gcuid scríofa a thuiscint... ní gá gurb ionann é agus an chaoi ina labhraíon. Mar shampla, is le dhá shiolla a ndeirim "chocolate", ag fágáil an dara 'o' ar lear, ach ní chialaíonn sin go litrím go difriúil é.

Breacbán,

Realise that there's more than one way of expressing one's thoughts. All of my methods of expression you quote are valid and legitimate and are not grammatically incorrect. I was born and raised (and still live) in Dublin in Ireland and I am a native speaker of the language known as English. So here, I'll give you a lesson:

quote:

Can anyone shed some light and clarify for me please?

Can anyone shed some light on this and clarify it for me please?

No object is required in these sentences. I intended their absence.

quote:

When is it in Irish that the noun isn't altered to its genitive form in these sentences? For instance, all of the following nouns are genetised (I don't care if that ain't it word, it still sounds good!)

Why does it occur in Irish, that the noun is not changed to the genitive form in these sentences? For instance, all of the following nouns are put into the genitive case (I don't care if that isn't a word, it still sounds good to me!)

There's a difference between "why" and "when", a difference which I am very apt at conveying. "isn't" is a grammatically correct contraction of "is not", and "altered" is a unique word which may be considered a synonym of "changed" but which has a subtly different meaning.

quote:

The only thing I can see that the above two sentences have in common is that the noun is:

In my opionion the only thing the two sentences above have in common is that the noun is:

Now it's you that's omitting words. Where's the "that"? Unnecessary, that's where it is. Looks like you've picked up on one of my habits. Firstly, you've misspelled "opinion" and secondly it has a very different meaning to "the only thing I can see..." -- a difference which I both understand and am very apt at conveying.

quote:

I'm actually liking all this intwined elaboratness! It sort of adds to the feel of a real au naturalle human language!

I wont even start here. Still hope I was some help FNM.

Then I will start here.

I misspelled both "entwined" and "elaborateness", but other than that, I've cooked-up a nice little metaphor:

entwined = referring to how some of the grammar rules reference others and vice versa and how it sends one's thoughts in circles trying to figure out exactly which grammar rules are at play.

elaborateness = complicated, but in a nice beautiful way.

au naturalle = a common expression to emphasize the idea of something being wholly natural. It has connotations of flesh and foliage.


It's at this point that I'll declare that I have very good English and that it is in fact better than yours. I'm also more intelligent than you. I've better Irish too. ( ...I better stop before I make you realise just how superior I am in so many ways. Don't worry though, you can probably fish better than I ( or better than "me" if you like ).

Nice chat.

Wow, the tone is raised here today. Fear na mBróg, I think that Breacban was making light of this posting.
http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/21/13816.html?1116950153

I suspected such too from the offset, but the tone of his post suggested otherwise. . .

meeeooow.

>Níor mhaígh mise riamh go raibh mo chuid Gaeilge gan >locht.

Is minic a scríobh tú gur cainteoir líofa thú agus gur cainteoir dúchais thú. Is ionann sin is a ráidht go bhfuil Gaeilg cheart agat, rud nach bhfuil, go minic.

>Agus cuirim ar shúile dhaoine é sin freisin. Táim breá sásta go gceartofaí aon leagan a thugaim do dhuine.

Nuair a ghnímse é thig fearg ort.

>quote:Sé ’n chomhairle a chuirim ort bheith níos modhúil agus stad de bheith ’ráidht...
>níos modhúla

>Nach ea?

Seadh! fuair tú meancógaí liom cé nach ndéanaim mórán - meancógaí bunúsacha atá ann agus rinn mé iad siocair go rabh fearg orm ’s nár athléigh mé ’n teachtaireacht sin sular sheol mé í (bhí sé mall go leor agus fonn codlata orm).

>quote:Agus scríobh thíos in áit an sínithe gur féidir...
in áit an tsínithe

>Nach ea?

Seadh aríst!

>Botúin ghramadaí iad seo, ní botúin litrithe atá iontu.

Níor úrt mé a mhalairt ariamh agus char úrt mé ariamh ach an oiread gur cainteoir dúchais atá ionamsa féin! Agus leis an fhírinne a ráidht ghnímse i bhfad níos lú meancóg ná Aonghus.

>Caithfidh mé fiafraí, a Lughaidh, cén fáth gurb i do chanúint féin a scríobhann tú?

Siocair gurb í mo chanúint í. Cad chuige ar scríobh tú "cén fáth gurb..." thuas nuair nach bhfuil sé sa chaighdeán? Sa chaighdeán ba chóir "cén fáth arb..." a scríobh. Mar sin cuirimse ’n cheist chéanna ort féin !!!

>Labhraíonn (nó Labhrann) daoine mar atá uatha, agus >tuigimid a chéile, ach dar le scríobh, tá caighdeán >againn chun gur féidir linn ár gcuid scríofa a >thuiscint... ní gá gurb ionann é agus an chaoi ina >labhraíon. Mar shampla, is le dhá shiolla a >ndeirim "chocolate", ag fágáil an dara 'o' ar lear, ach >ní chialaíonn sin go litrím go difriúil é.

Cha dtuigim cad chuige ’r scríobh tú sin !!! nach dtuigeann tú a scríobhaim? is dóigh liom go dtuigeann ós rud é gur fhreagair tú mé anseo... Agus char scríobh duine ar bith ariamh chugam nár thuig sé ar scríobh mé. Cad chuige a n-athróchainn rud ar bith? Scríobhaim mar seo go nádúrtha ’s tuigeann achan duine mé, go bhfios domh. Dá n-abróchadh duine nach dtuigeann sé mé, bheinn sásta mo theachtaireacht a bhreacadh aríst i nGaeilg chaighdeánach dó.

Adh mór (an dtearr mé meancóg an iarraidh seo? :-) d’athléigh mé seo ’ríst agus cha dtáinig mé ar chionn ar bith ach bhuel, tá cead agaibh a leithéid a chuartú).

Well FNM I think the following paragraph sums you up perfectly

It's at this point that I'll declare that I have very good English and that it is in fact better than yours. I'm also more intelligent than you. I've better Irish too. ( ...I better stop before I make you realise just how superior I am in so many ways. Don't worry though, you can probably fish better than I ( or better than "me" if you like ).

To answer your points;

I dont think your English is very good but that's only my opinion . I dont need to state of course that I am irish and not from "the Pale" like yourself. It should also be noted that standard english is not spoken in the Pale.

You also state that your more intelligent than me without knowing anything about me. So I think the veracity of that statment is dubious at best (on the limited evidence here anyway).

You say that your Irish is better than mine. Congratualations, that would mean that you would be at least capable of getting more than a F grade in the lower level leaving cert paper in Irish.

The whole point of my earlier comments is that their is more than one way to say anything in English or in Irish. Now you didnt like it when some of your own inadequacies were pointed out so please, dont go where you are not asked. Aonghus asked if he could correct my messages and I no problem with that, especially as his irish speaks for itself.