See what its about, sign the petition if you agree with what it stands for, and tell me what you think!
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/stopirishnow/ .

You're petition is absolutely insane. The solution is not to stop teaching Irish, but to reform the school system. Irish should be more important in the school system than being a single subject. Kids are lazy if you let them be. They'll never seek self-improvement by themselves. The problem isn't with forcing kids to learn but that the teaching method is poor. And suggesting clubs as an alternative is ridiculous. Lots of people learn better in a class room setting where there is structure. Clubs won't have focus or structure. Worst of all is that clubs don't meet for at least an hour every day. Classes are daily. Weekly meetings will do nothing for those wishing to learn a language even if they have great enough to desire to learn in between on their own(The clubs would move along too slowly). I'm getting a little tired of these people perpetuating a façade of claiming to support and "love" Irish while spreading negative views("Irish is dead", etc.) or suggesting ideas to hurt it.

I do love Irish. I also love studying the case of Jack the Ripper...dooesn't mean that it should be taught at school. By not teaching Irish in schools, those who truly love it would still be able to learn it(with a little bit of iniative), without the distractions of unruly children.etc.
Language Clubs do work...in primary school I went to a "French Club"...in that one school about 20 people joined it, and we all(or nearly all) learnt French in about 1 and a 1/2 years. An hour is plenty for people wanting to do anything.
If you spend awile on Boards like these, you'll notice that a lot of people who speak Irish are actually not from Ireland. So obviously they can't go to a regular class, or at least not one like we have in Ireland. They learn on there own, and for their own reasons(not just because it'll get them points in the L.C, or because they don't want to fail tests).

Tj, I'm just curious, do you live in Ireland yourself?

Tameanseo > I agree with you. I'm sure that many people would love to learn Irish if it's not obligatory. Children hate to be forced to do something, whatever it may be. If Irish isn't taught as an obligatory subject, i'm sure that quite a lot of young people will want to learn it for pleasure. Now, what obligatory Irish teaching does, is that most children hate Irish. It would change if they weren't forced to do it. Anyway, learning Irish in schools on an obligatory basis doesn't change anything for the life of the Irish language : after their Leaving, most children don't speak Irish fluently and they want to forget it completely.

Does this logic of not making the study of the Irish language obligatory also apply to other subjects? For example, mathematics. Many kids hate studying math, so why should it be obligatory? Just make it a club.

Dáithí

My feeling is that part of the reason people detest learning it is that it isn't "essential enough." learning a language is time consuming and difficult, and indeed, most people who learn it will use it infrequently if ever once out of school. The problem is apparently that the "cultural patrimony" argument just doesn't give much purchase with the native younger set.

I think all street signs and state signage should be gaeilge only, not just in the gaeltacht.

work toward it with the population, and in 15-20 years or so all state websites in irish only.

all government legislative business should be conducted as gaeilge, and all court proceedings starting about 40-50 years hence.

start a mandatory preschool where youngsters would be taught in irish only (they pick it up fastest), and then have irish only instruction follow them through the grades as they advance (current students to be grandfathered into the current system).

develop a fairly strict standard of conducting business as gaeilge, and give a generous monetary bonus to businesses that meet that standard, for instance, book publishers who publish 60% of their product line in irish, television, radio and newspapers who broadcast or publish 75% in Irish, with a further bonus to newspapers and magazines who have their covers/front pages in irish only. Universities that offer 50% of their classes in irish only, etc.

stuff like that. let's make it *important* - or better yet *critical* to know this language and live in ireland.

There is nothing new under the sun. Every now and then the subject of allegedly compulsory Irish turns up, as though no other subject were compulsory.

In fact, all subjects are compulsory at primary level, and most subjects at secondary level, at least in the junior cycle, are set by the school.

Education needs to be more than purely utilitarian. It has been one of the strengths of Irish education that a broad range of subjects are taught up to leaving certificate, unlike other countries where people specialise in a few (too early in my opinion).

I am firmly of the opinion that I am good at my job (and I am), which is computer programming, due in part to having a good grounding in many subjects, and being fluent in three human languages - none of this is immediately obvious vocational education. None can it be seen as purely a pastime.

I agree with Aonghus we get a good broad education!The British system seems f**ked up-separating kids when they are 11!!

By the way English,Maths and Irish are compulsory for the Leaving Cert here in Ireland..we can then choose 4 subjects ourselves.. I myself had French, Geography, History and Business Studies..what subjects you choose is usually dependent on the school you are in..

While I appreciate where you're coming from I have to disagree, I am from Belfast and Irish is not my first language, I started learning it at the age of eleven when I went to secondary level education. Yes, I did want to learn the language and yes that fuelled me on purely by the love and aching desire to speak the language. Now i'm at university and i'm studying a degree in Irish language and literature, when people ask what i'm studying and when I tell them often the response is "why?" and "where will that take you?" and it's not just northerners who ask stupid questions like this often it is young people from the south who are not being stimulated and enthused by the language because the system needs to be reformed. The same stands however in Irish medium education in the north, many young students from Irish medium schools are refusing to speak the language as it is forced on them from a young age, it's a great pity and shame and the question which must be asked is why? it's merely because the system needs reformed to address all levels of ability and in order to enthuse even the most non-academic students. While I would have loved to have spoken the language from birth I appreciate that my grammar and knowledge of the language is in many cases superior to that of children who went to irish medium schools (not meaning to blow my own trumpet here!) and it could be for the fact that I have the drive to learn it or it may just be that the language is taught in more depth at that level. I cannot begin to answer these questions as they are too many and too complicated for the likes of me! however with regards to the petition to remove the compulsory teaching of Irish in the south ridiculous!! our language is pure, and beautiful why shouldn't we learn her from an early age, she is also one of the hardest languages to learn so why not get a head start and learn it when you're a child and are able to pick it up easier, but the teaching of grammar needs to be improved and refined in order to improve the standard of the language in every corner of this land and THIS is the petition that you should be attempting to propose and not the removal of the language completely as Seán Ó Ríordáin said "Fill arís ar do chuid!"

>>our language is pure
>>she is also one of the hardest languages to learn

I know a lot of French who'd say that about French..., still

1: a language is never "pure"... whatever is meant by the use of the word...
Plus it's dangerous to say that, because it suggests that other languages are "unpure" or "not so pure". (certain theories about people sound just the same...)

2: a language is never bluntly "complicated" or "simple". If a language is complicated at some level, it will be simpler at another...

>>>>(Quote=Antaine).I think all street signs and state signage should be gaeilge only, not just in the gaeltacht.

work toward it with the population, and in 15-20 years or so all state websites in irish only.

all government legislative business should be conducted as gaeilge, and all court proceedings starting about 40-50 years hence.

start a mandatory preschool where youngsters would be taught in irish only (they pick it up fastest), and then have irish only instruction follow them through the grades as they advance (current students to be grandfathered into the current system).

develop a fairly strict standard of conducting business as gaeilge, and give a generous monetary bonus to businesses that meet that standard, for instance, book publishers who publish 60% of their product line in irish, television, radio and newspapers who broadcast or publish 75% in Irish, with a further bonus to newspapers and magazines who have their covers/front pages in irish only. Universities that offer 50% of their classes in irish only, etc.

stuff like that. let's make it *important* - or better yet *critical* to know this language and live in ireland.<<<<

Why? What would having the street signs in Irish do for anyone? What would having everyone fluent in Irish do? By being fluent in English, we allow ourselves easy communication with several other countries. I want Irish to survive, but not at the expense of our ease of communication. That is why I suggest the idea of Irish clubs(Hell, I even say I'll set up one myself!). I agree that the language should be promoted, and a lot of your ideas are interesting, if not well worth having implemented, but if they were implemented in an Ireland where Irish wasn't compulsory, I believe the language would truly thrive.
There would be far less hatred towards the language, and no pressure from exams. So learning would be done solely because of love for the language.

>>>>(Quote=Aonghus).There is nothing new under the sun. Every now and then the subject of allegedly compulsory Irish turns up, as though no other subject were compulsory.

In fact, all subjects are compulsory at primary level, and most subjects at secondary level, at least in the junior cycle, are set by the school.

Education needs to be more than purely utilitarian. It has been one of the strengths of Irish education that a broad range of subjects are taught up to leaving certificate, unlike other countries where people specialise in a few (too early in my opinion).

I am firmly of the opinion that I am good at my job (and I am), which is computer programming, due in part to having a good grounding in many subjects, and being fluent in three human languages - none of this is immediately obvious vocational education. None can it be seen as purely a pastime.<<<<

Ah, but if as a child you were learning languages that had countries(I mean by that statement you could go somewhere totally different from where you live, and make use of the learned language), you might find it easier to learn/motivate yourself.

>>>>(Quote=Caoimhe). the removal of the language completely<<<<

I don't want to remove Gaeilge, or cause it harm! I just don't want it to be compulsory.

Think of it this way: In Ireland, Religion classes are compulsory. These classes all have a Christian/Catholic perspective. So, for people of different religions is a complete bore. It'd be better if there was a wide variety of religions touched upon, but it'd also be better(and easier) if there was no religion classes, and matters of a spiritual nature were left to the people. Religion wouldn't die, it would just become more personal.
That's what I want for Irish. I doubt this petition(if successful) would hurt the language, and I hope/believe it would help it.

To answer your question as to "why"

in my estimation, the biggest problem facing learner morale is not the methods used, but the fact that even if you live in the gaeltacht you don't "need" the language. The argument gets made that if you're going to spend all that time and effort to learn a second language you would do better to have it be french or german or russian.

The *only* reason to learn it (as it stands right now) is to keep it alive. Unfortunately, I don't believe that's enough to convince *enough* people to make the effort to learn it to keep it alive and healthy and vibrant.

Irish needs to become as essential to daily life in Ireland as Dutch is to daily life in the Netherlands. Most Dutch have a good command of English as well, so they're not held back in that regard, but it is not the language of their daily life.

I am of the opinion that the only way a language can make a comeback is to go all the way and follow the Israeli model - *reform *education *necessity.

English needs to be phased into secondary language status the way Irish has been. The Irish can speak english to the rest of the world if they need to, but need to speak Irish to themselves.

A Thá mé anseo:
The whole point about learning Irish in Ireland is that TV, radio, and books are easily accessible without the cost of travel abroad.

There are vibrant Irish speaking communities within easy reach of everybody in Ireland.

That's not to say language clubs are not a good idea. They are. Ógras, Feachtas and Cumann na bhFiann have been running them for years.

my guess:

if we want irish to survive and prosper, we have to convince people in an intimate manner that they should speak it.

the question is: how do we do that ?


(the thing with israel is that when this country was created, the israelis didn't have a common language... whereas everybody in ireland can speak english)

"the thing with israel is that when this country was created, the israelis didn't have a common language... whereas everybody in ireland can speak english"

yes, that is a very important distinction, but it does show that that kind of major change in something as fundamental as language can work.

To my mind, 'how we do that' is by making Ireland a place where you can't get by as a permanent resident without speaking the language. The idea of Ireland going back to being a Gaeilge-speaking as opposed to english-speaking country is typically scoffed at, but I really feel that setting that goal (say, for fifty years down the road) is the only way to do right by the language. Even if it doesn't entirely succeed, the language will be spoken in far greater populations than we're looking at now, even with the most hopeful predictions.

government services need to make it essential, social programs need to make it monetarily benificial, and educational programs need to start with youngsters @ age 2 or 3. By the time the kids realize they're 'learning' the language they will already be fluent, if placed in a fluent environment every day from the earliest ages.

There was a common language with the European Jews flooding into Palestine before and during the creation of Israel. The language was Yiddish. It was spoken by not only Eastern European Jews but also Western European Jews. The Zionists had already decided that Hebrew was to be the language of the new state. Yiddish was banned in all its forms. It worked for them because there was no choice in the matter.

I should have added that Yiddish is not a language per se
but certainly was spoken by the Jewish masses in all of pre-war Europe.

right. as with any change that requires such a fundamental shift for people, there has to be no choice. that's how ireland was converted to speaking english.

The trick is, to basically force people to do it by not leaving an alternative, but to make sure the compensation they get for playing along and doing it justifies it in their minds so everybody wins.

Quote "I should have added that Yiddish is not a language per se
but certainly was spoken by the Jewish masses in all of pre-war Europe"
OY VEH IZ MIR VAT U MESHUGGANA? Yiddish is indeed a language as vibrant and alive a s IRISH is! just ask Zero Mostel Eli Weisental and several million others who still have Yiddish as an every day language. I would recommend a visit to Williamsburg NY or Kiryas Joel in Orange Co NY, that would dispell that thought! to not admit that Yiddish is a language you whould have to be some kind of yontz schmeckle head nu? but they chose to shed yiddish because of the shetle connotations and to be inside of the pale. shalom alaichim btw the Jews of Europe are the Askenazim (hebrew gor Germany) SEPHARDIM are the Jews of Spain North Afica and the middle east they sopke a language called Ladino based on the spanish Spoken in spain pre 1492 (epultion by Fredindand and Isabella that is why in Israel Ladino was still spoken pre Balfour. I think that hebrew was chosen as to try to alleivate some of the racism from Askenasi towards the Sephardim "Gay Kocken Aufen Yom" note the lack of ipa usage:)

(Message edited by dan on May 18, 2005)

I'm interested in the Yiddish situation actually. I've heard conflicting reports. Some say "yes, it is a full langauge" some claim it a dialect of german (a language is a dialect with an army) and still more claim that it does not have a full vocabulary and qualifies more as a 'code language' similar to Traveller Cant.

the dialect explanation likens the relationship between german and yiddish to irish and manx (yiddish is the yiddish word for the german word jüdisch, etc)

As an American, I'm not about to sit here and try to tell the Irish how I think they should run their schools.

However, some food for thought. Tameanseo, I think what I see from you is the same attitude I've observed in many Irish youth. You don't necessarily despise the Irish language, but at the same time you don't see it as YOUR language. You see it as a foreign tongue, and one that really isn't of any benefit to you because it's of no use to you outside Ireland. Why not take German or French if you want something really useful, right?

I think that in earlier posts Antaine made a good comparison to Ireland when using the Netherlands. Small nation, not many places that Dutch would be of use outside of the Netherlands, and a high percentage of the population that speaks English. Why not just give up the Dutch language altogether and switch over to English? Because Dutch is THEIR language, the language they're brought up on, the language they use amongst themselves. It's part of who they are.

Now I realize that we're not quite comparing apples to apples here as there was never any concerted effort to wipe out the Dutch language and thus it's never had to come back from a disadvantaged position. However I hope you get where I'm going with this, Tameanseo. Until more of your countrymen quit viewing Irish as a foreign language and start embracing it as their own, a unique part of who they are, it will continue to struggle to remain a living language.

I'm not sure if making all schools Irish-medium would be the answer or not, but it's definitely a thought. My guess is that students at Irish-medium schools don't view Irish as a foreign language so much as just the language that they use to go about their lives, at least at school.

Regards,

Searlas

the thing with schools is, children (very young...1, 2, 3 yo) learn a language almost by absorbtion. they figure it out just by watching and listening. by placing them in an irish-only setting 6hrs a day, five days a week from say, age 2 upward, they would be fluent by the time they're out of kindergarten (age 5/6). It is established that children in the US can pick up with ease the langauge of a foreign au pair in roughly the same amount of time. By the time they're old enough to be taking language classes they won't need them. a six year old will speak irish as well as a four year old speaking english, and the gap will close with age and practice. Irish classes for them would take the form of english class for native english speakers, which are a very different animal.

immigrants to the irish school system would be made to do with irish what immigrants to the US school system are made to do with english. Here we have something called ESL or English as a Second Langauge. It is a program that gives them one class a day in english tutoring as well as "labs" throughout the day where they can take their assignments and tests from other classes (which are all in english) for some extra supervision and language (not content) assistance from a native english speaker.

something tells me, however, that pushing such an ambitious program would be political suicide in ireland, which is indicative of a rather shameful state of affairs.

Tameanseo, although you may not have set up this petition as an anti-Irish endevour, the people who have signed it so far definitely are anti-Irish. Have a look yourself.
Seven people have signed it so far and of the five who have written a comment, four are clearly anti-Irish, going well beyond just making it voluntary, and I quote:

"Irish is a waste of my time"

"I think its a waste of time learning Irish"

"i think that teaching this practically dead language is pointless and time consuming."

"Irish is dead."

The only comment that isn't anti Irish says "I like pie". I think that says a lot.

lol...well, there you have it.

I like pie, too, but I don't think they should stop teaching Irish. perhaps we can offer the author of the petition a piece of pie...strawberry rhubarb...or, better yet, humble...

The comment from the latest signatory is a real gem!

"Get rid of this backward, peasant language once and for all. Our culture is British. Get used to it."

I'm thinking about starting a petition to stop the teaching of Oncology in Medical Schools. I mean, c'mon...how many doctors really use it anyway? There are only a small fraction of the total doctors out there who even want to practice oncology. Most cancers are uniformly fatal...it's just prolonging the inevitable to treat them. And plus....it's soooo boring to study. I mean, small cell versus large cell, melanoma versus basal cell carcinoma...it's just boring.


Same argument, same twisted logic. Same asinine approach.

I say, dump the western education system completely, and go back to an artisan/apprentice model. then all education will be voluntary and the students can be as selective as they please...

Voluntary along with bedtime and taking baths and not drinking too much Coke. Kids!

Hey,

While we're at it, let's just dump english! I mean, think about it. The language is taught at home. The grammar is really a moot point. I mean, in today's world of computers and such, who needs to remember any grammar or spelling!?!? Every computer program has some version of spell-check and/or grammar check. Why burden those poor students with aspects of english that are most certainly on their way to becoming obsolete?

Ni thuigum sibhsa. Bhi me ag feicant ar do comments agus chonaic me cupla focail as gailge. Is maith liom gailge agus bearla.

My Gailge is not superb, I was only introduced to the language 3 or 4 years ago but I'm plodding along using the language as much as I can.

Be realistic about this you cannot take Irish away from any Schools in Ireland but what you can do is keep the language in the fore front. I don't know exactly how to do that but when you see the organisations that are doing their best then support them. Look at Daltai na Gaeilge they've done a superb job of introducing many people to the language. I'm from England originally and would never in a million years have thought that I would be using the language as much as I do.

James as far as your comment about the spell checkers and such well you could say the same about Gaeilge. I use Gaelspell and to be honest its not that great.

Every computer program has some version of spell-check and/or grammar check. Why burden those poor students with aspects of english that are most certainly on their way to becoming obsolete?

Just for grins, type one of Hamlet's soliloquies into a word processor and run the grammar check. Shakespeare gets an "F!"

Stiobhard, the irony warning was missing on James' post!

And anyone who trusts Microsoft to improve their grammar deserves what they get!

Yes...perhaps my tongue was not planted firmly enough in cheek. I, for one, wish my own english grammar education had been MORE complete. I'm sure it would make understanding other languages and the respective grammar issues much less confusing.

James, what you say about oncology is incomparable to what I say about Irish. Oncology is taught in medical schools, where the students expect the teaching of medical things. Irish is "forced" upon us by the Government/The Man.

James comment about not teaching English grammar because of spellcheck...well ha, ha, ha. Aren't you very smart?
Think about it James. Stopping compulsory Irish teaching is nothing like stopping compulsory English teaching. Knowing English, and understanding the grammar.etc., and the techniques used in poetry, these talents can all be used later in life. How? Well, we do speak English on a daily basis. We would also speak it if we moved to England, or America or Australia. We use it when we read poetry, when we read a newspaper(or write a letter to it).etc. Irish isn't necessary for any of these things, and you'd be hardpressed to do all of them in Irish.

The theory about Irish schools? I know several people who go to Irish schools. They don't love it, nor do they feel the need to speak it. Remember when you were in school, and you were unable to curse? Did that stop you? No, you cursed more than usual. So of course, English will be spoken whenever possible at these schools. From experience, I know if you ask one of the students from those schools to say something in Irish, they'll tell you to F*** Off.

Hmmmmm...well, when I was in school I used to study things like American History and Civics. I hated civics, but loved American History. The argument could be made that I don't use either one. I'm not a history teacher, I don't work in public office nor do I aspire to either. So...why don't we identify those kids who think they're going to use this stuff and just let THEM be the ones to study it. The rest of the kids can study other stuff!

The reason is simple....because they're KIDS!!! They don't have the foggiest clue WHAT they want to be or do when they grow up.

By studying History and Civics, students are given a foundation in what makes their country "Their" country and what makes their history "Their" history. You might not think teaching, or learning Irish serves any practical use but I'd be willing to bet it serves a very useful and essential purpose. It helps to secure the Irish identity of the student. You may say that the students "hate" Irish while in school, but I've seen more than just a few on this site alone who wish they had studied it more seriously. NOw, later in life, they are beginning to feel a sense of national and cultural pride and the language is no small part of that.

I heard a very good speech about how Irish is becoming "cool" amongst the younger generations in Ireland. One of the leading influences was an Irish olympian who was a native speaker. When she won her olympic medal the first interview she gave was to TG4 as gaeilge. She was young, she was pretty and she spoke Irish!!! Talk about a break from the stereotype!

This is the "face" that needs to be put on Irish if it's going to survive. As long as it's taught at the end of a ruler and portrayed as the language of the old and poor, it doesn't stand a chance. The learning of Irish needs to be fun and the use of it by young, popular Irish celebs needs to be promoted. Hell, Colin Farrell spoke Irish at the Oscars a few years back. While I don't particularly care for Colin Farrell, THAT's what Irish needs. Young, popular Irishmen and IRishwomen using the Irish publicly and outside of Ireland.

Teaching Irish doesn't need to change...the WAY it is taught does! But, what do I know. I'm a 40'ish American...I'd really like to know what young Irish men and women have to say. I'd like thier objective opinions...not the emotional "I hated Irish" response.

Just in by e-mail: (from http://www.gaelport.com )

FIGIÚIRÍ SPÉISIÚLA I STATISITICÍ NA ROINNE OIDEACHAIS 2003.

Tá beagnach 30,000 dalta bunscoile ag fáil oideachas iomlán trí mheán na
Gaeilge ach tá 117,000 dalta thairis sin ag leibhéal na bunscoile a
múintear ábhar amháin eile dóibh ar a laghad trí Ghaeilge, seachas
Gaeilge féin.

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/statistics02-03.pdf

There are 30000 pupils getting an all Irish education, but there are a further 117000 primary level pupils who are being taught at least one other subject through Irish (excluding Irish)

The statistics in question are on Page No 27 of the document (which is page 41 of the file)

Unfortunately, page 45 Table 3.10 shows one of the causes of the problems in teaching Irish, namely the sudden drop in second level education i Irish compared to primary level.

Gaelscoileanna, the voluntary organisation which founded most of the primary schools, is now focussed on addressing that.
(see http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie )



(Message edited by aonghus on May 20, 2005)

(Message edited by aonghus on May 20, 2005)

Tameanseo wrote:
"I know if you ask one of the students from those schools to say something in Irish, they'll tell you to F*** Off."

That'd have a lot to do with being treated like some kind of freakshow/entertainment by others.
I went to an all-Irish school and love the language. Yeah we spoke English in the schoolyard, because we were kids, teenagers, minors. What do you expect?! Kids are kids!
When you actually become a mature adult you develop a proper appreciation of these things and realise what a sap you were when you were a teenager.
But even now, if I had some gobshite coming up to me asking me to speak a language on the spot for his personal entertainment, I'd tell him to f**k off too!

I'd like to sometimes, but I always oblige as I feel it is my duty to never pass up an opportunity to spread some knowledge of Gaeilge, even if it's only knowledge of its existence or sound.

One of my students today (I teach in a high school in central NJ) spoke Irish with me for a bit. He doesn't know much as he just knows what he picked up from his parents (father from dublin mother from cork) but both of them speak irish and apparently use it around the house to a modest degree.

>Does this logic of not making the study of the Irish >language obligatory also apply to other subjects? For >example, mathematics. Many kids hate studying math, so >why should it be obligatory? Just make it a club.

Math isn’t a language that will become a dead language if everybody hates it. Irish could.

The point is that maths is just as "compulsory" as Irish.