For those of you who are newer to this forum, there is probably a certain amount of background to some of the bickering that you are missing. For this I apologize. Suffice it to say that there are those of us who have been here for years while others have been here for months. To me, there exists on this site an extended family of sorts. These people have done more than help me learn Irish. They've supported me (if not my politics) through an overseas deployment. They've welcomed me at an immersion weekend and they've given me an insight into a heritage I knew I had but never experienced. This is like my electronic neighborhood....my cyber-gaeltacht if you will. I know these people and they know me...together, we've seen people come and go. And, dare I say it, some of us have come and gone and come again.

For example, when Fear na mBrog first started posting here he was like that young neighborhood tough kid standing around on the street corner. He was there, he'd snipe at you on occassion, his language was a bit rough but deep down inside, you knew he was a good kid. Over the past few years, I (we) have watched Fear na mBrog grow and mature into a very likeable and knowledgeable young man. His grasp of Irish is far beyond mine and always has been. I have come to depend on his corrections and, if I'm ever in his neck of the woods, I'd stand him to a pint or two without question.

Aonghus, Larry, Caoimhín and countless others have been here from day one for me. They have nurtured me and many other beginners through those first tentative steps of dipping our toes into this vast ocean of Irish and they've done so enthusiastically and supportively. They are like the "old" families in any neighborhood. They've been here forever, they've seen neighbors come and go, but they're always here. They always have been and always will be.

So, when you look at it like this. When you see it through this lense, maybe now you'll understand why some of us react the way we do when newer arrivals begin to park their linguistic SUV's on our street and letting their grammatical Saint Bernard's loose on other people's lawns. You DON'T come into my neighborhood and start racing up and down my streets, picking on other families, bullying your way into town meetings, etc without getting me a bit riled up.

This is a generally peaceful neighborhood. We want to develop an environment that is inviting, not intimidating. This isn't some elitist gated neighborhood...it's just what I said earlier...it's a cyber-gaeltacht where anyone can come to visit, hang out...or, live. The only requirement is that you try to speak Irish. Try your best and try it often. If the grammar nazis start hiding on every street corner so they can rush out and beat you with their rubber hoses every time you drop an eclipsis or forget to lenite, then who in their right mind would want to live here? The answer, of course, is other grammar nazis who have nothing to fear. The rest of us common working class folks who are trying to learn will go find a friendlier place to hang out. It's really that simple.

Now, to answer a question posed on another thread..why do I call Lughaidh, Looey? Well, there are a number of reasons. One HUGE one stems from a name he called me....but, I won't go into detail because it will start another fight and get this whole thread removed. The simplest explanation I can give is this...I call him Looey for the same reason Hawkeye Peirce called Charles Emerson Winchester the Third, Chuck. I do it for the same reason I called a young lady I knew in college who insisted she be called "Mary Hunter" (Hunter being a family name that was her middle name)...for the same reason I called her "Mare". I do it for the same reason I remind my sister who holds a Ph.D. in music that there was a time she competed with all her heart and soul to become the Shrimp Queen of Onslow County, North Carolina. I do it to keep arrogant people humble. To remind them that while I respect their accomplishments, they are no better or no worse a human being than the rest of us. They eat, pee and poop just like all the rest of us. Their food might be more expensive and thier toilets may be gilded but what they're putting into those gilded toilets looks and smells just like what us "commoners" put into ours.

This is a nice little neighborhood we have here. Anyone at all, at all is welcome to visit or even take up residence. But, you gotta play nice. If your grasp of the language is like a fancy horse that'll gallop you through the streets, then that's wonderful. Just don't go galloping over any of us whose grasp of the language is a bit more pedestrian. If you want to turn your horse out for a nice gallop...go to the "Irish Only" forum...my bet is your horse won't be such a big deal over there!

"insight into a heritage I knew I had but never experienced"
What did you go back in a time machine?

"my cyber-gaeltacht"

should be cyber-GHaeltacht...
or for those who are lazy 'sighber-KHaltakt' whatever what is meant to sound like

"but deep down inside, you knew he was a good kid. Over the past few years, I (we) have watched Fear na mBrog grow and mature into a very likeable and knowledgeable young man..."

I love you dad! [sob sob, hugs are round]

"You DON'T come into my neighborhood and start racing up and down my streets, picking on other families, bullying your way into town meetings, etc without getting me a bit riled up"

Sorry to be a rainparade, but this is not a 'neighbourhood', with 'values'. americans had little use for values when the amerindians were been slaughtered.

"The only requirement is that you try to speak Irish. Try your best and try it often."

I had a policy of wroting posts bilingually, but was so attacked when I stopped ONCE to write in english only, that I said fuck it (and the ISP tracking suggested the 'fiends' to be one person under two names and converging in the new england area)

"To remind them that while I respect their accomplishments, they are no better or no worse a human being than the rest of us."

Opera whould be proud

"my bet is your horse won't be such a big deal over there"

Mary Hunter's my horse

Oh, Aye as they say in Manchester, James. You touch a spot of cyber-nostalgia in me, and it gets me remembering the names of some who have gone and not come back. Two in particular -- Oliver and Seán -- if they be still about, I hope they'll return.

Dont throw your trash in my back yard,
My back yard,
My back yard,
Don't throw your trash in my back yard;
My back yard's full.

A Phádraig:

Well stated and well remembered. Two formerly very active participants who left in a hail of illogical tirades similar to the one Jax has just taken.


Jax:

How in the heck do American Indians figure into this at all? Could it be my arrow struck a bit too close to your loincloth? Or, perhaps your quiver of meaningful responses has come up a bit empty?

Please post more, my friend. You are making my point quite nicely.

To the rest of you...this is exactly what I'm talking about. This is a very peaceful community of like-minded individuals. Some more fluent and proficient than others. All that's being asked is that we stay focused on the advancement of Irish and that we use this forum as a tool for encouraging beginning students. It's a tough language that was practically driven into extinction by a heavy handed educational approach. Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past.

opera would be proud.... by Wagner or Verdi? dude if your going to insult at least spell it right!
Lapuwale!
Lôlô!Maka`i noho`i kê lâ!
BUt James You and I may understand that reasoning but are you sure he gets the gist of that? but any way enough of this BS lets goe on with the learnin! ALOOOOOOOHA A hui hou kâkou!

Great speech James. I appreciate your comments about me and take them as compliments.

I like the crowd we have here on the forum.

Jax, you're an asshole. That's my opinion of you. Your posts are a horror to read for two reasons:

A) spelling, punctuation, grammar
B) You've nothing interesting to say.

Your response to James's well-thought-out and genuine speech, is nothing more than vacuous, pretentious and idiotic. You're an illiterate idiot and I welcome your departure from this forum.

I'm quite fond of everyone else here though.

and he doesn't even bother to register!

"How in the heck do American Indians figure into this at all?"

Its called humour. I know Americans need to be led to water before they drink, so I'll point it all out:

That speech you just gave would have most Irish laughing and jeering. Beating your chest about values sounds so silly that it deserves an irreverent response. Also at the back of it, is a knowledge that whatever guff Americans spout out, its all jazz at the end of the day (cue the Indian reference).

"perhaps your quiver of meaningful responses has come up a bit empty?"

Since you seem to be providing all the input to this forum all I can say is that I'm limited by the material

"a tough language that was practically driven into extinction by a heavy handed educational approach"

According to Kenneth Nicholls and his compatriots, since the Normans arrived there has never been blanket coverage of Irish on the island, and since the Elizabethan age, political and socio-economic changes have undermined it as those who spoke it were marginalized. Victorian education policies from the 1830's onwards did not themselves cause Irish to 'collapse'.

"Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past".

Yes sir! I thought you were a GI, not a general commander.

"But James You and I may understand that reasoning but are you sure he gets the gist of that?"

Of course, as a European I could not come to grips with sophisticated American reasoning...Also, it is the height of arrogance to talk down at someone when they can listen. It shows you have no respect for posters here -the very thing that you are railing against.

What is really been said is that a few posters want to control the ambience of the site. I have been confused with people who make attacks just because I laughed at a foolish man talking rubbish. You want us all to clap each other’s backs like we are at an empowerment meeting?

Fear_na_mbróg,
and you are just another example of the homogenous middle class teenager/20-somthing one can see all over the country whose parents have sent you to gaelscoil as a statement of their vague nationalism. You are probably a johnny-come-lately Sinn Féin voter too.

Your postings have shown nothing but your dull wit and vaporous intellect. You have confused variables at every turn, denied the possibility of analysis carte blanch, and come across as the sort of boorish Dubliner that are all to common nowadays where everything is self-referential arising out of both a lack of experience and an inability to accept difference within people.

"and he doesn't even bother to register!"

Good man, Diarmo. But the boot in when everyone is doing it.

come on show your ID Jax if you are so clever--stop hiding!!

"come on show your ID Jax if you are so clever"

From back posts you can know my townland except one, my village, county, college course, and where one or two Daltai posters have been in that county as relates to Irish, and that I do be in Dublin every week. The ISP codes under the handle will show I am in Ireland. That is more than most people here, so who is hiding?

quote:

Fear_na_mbróg,
and you are just another example of the homogenous middle class teenager/20-somthing one can see all over the country whose parents have sent you to gaelscoil as a statement of their vague nationalism.

Went to an all-boys english speaking primary school, and thence to an all-boys english speaking secondary school.

quote:

You are probably a johnny-come-lately Sinn Féin voter too.

I've never voted in my life. I know very little about "Sinn Féin"; the most I know is that they're very strongly associated with the IRA

quote:

Your postings have shown nothing but your dull wit and vaporous intellect.

Many people disagree, though you're entitled to your own (pretentious) opinion.

quote:

You have confused variables at every turn

Another reason why people don't like you -- you make blind references. You allude to things, but aren't specific enough for anyone to cop what you're saying.

quote:

denied the possibility of analysis carte blanch

More general statements with no context. Are you talking about my snooker game? "carte blanch" isn't in my vocabulary.

quote:

and come across as the sort of boorish Dubliner that are all to common nowadays where everything is self-referential arising out of both a lack of experience and an inability to accept difference within people.

Speculation. And bullshit. I'm a very friendly person, open to anyone who's open to me (just so long as they have no ill intent toward me, or engage in practises I condemn (pedophilia for example) ).

Jax you seem to have a decent enough vocabulary (albeit misused), so I'm puzzled as to why your posts come across as unintelligible as they do. I don't want to appear insensitive here, and I ask this genuinely, but do you have a learning disability? Because if you do and you inform people, then maybe they'd accomodate you better and be more patient with you.

We have a universal problem here, I'm afraid:
http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

Jax, I note that you can write english properly when you choose. Please choose more often!

Also, I disagree with you that all Europeans would laugh about James' speech on values - It is just that those Europeans who share his outlook are less vocal than the corresponding Americans. That will probably change soon.

By the way, Fear na Bróg did not attend a Gaelscoil, and his political allegiance is irrelevant.

Now, can we have less Ad Hominem attacks, and more Irish, please...

(Message edited by aonghus on May 13, 2005)

Let me point out a few things:

1) I asked why was Lughaidh been attacked
2) A long letter was written denouncing ill use of forum
3) I get confused as been one of the habitual attackers and get verbally abused
4) The attackers have previously abused me because I posted in Irish (even tho it is one of their aims to post in said langue)
5) The focus on a 'personality' which you can attack means those that are carrying this out can a) keep fuelling the problem, and b) use 'site values' as a smokescreen

By getting abusive with me, the original problem has not gone away, and the incidences of attack have increased markedly.

Using scapegoats is turning the cops into the robbers as far as I can see. Like in real life, this board has cowardly hangers on (Narrowback, Diarmo, Nash, mahoo) who love to come into a fight when the odds are perceived as low on the victim’s side.

As for FnaB: your replies to Max on grammar are the basis of what I said

quote:

As for FnaB: your replies to Max on grammar are the basis of what I said

Yet another blind reference. You've lost me.

(Looking at your last post though, it does look like you have good spelling, grammar and punctuation. At times you don't though. Is this a symptom of dyslexia?)

Whether you would appreciate my advice or not, I'll give it. A lot more people will enjoy reading your posts if you:

A) Keep an eye on your spelling, grammar and punctuation. They were quite good in your last post.
B) After writing a post, read back over it and pay particular attention to references you make. Perhaps the issue is that you are overly intelligent and presume that we would be able to make the links in our mind that you can make so easily? All I can say is that so far you've presented many references which have just left me baffled. Or perhaps you have difficulty in imagining things from another person's perspective? You may very well know to which post your refer with your words above, but maybe you don't realize that I'm oblivious to your thoughts and have no way of knowing which post you're talking about? Beef up your references and make them more easily understood and linkable in one's mind.

I don't understand what this is all about.....

If this is a "friendly neighborhood",

how come people are so agressive... even the ones who call themselves peaceful ?

In a previous thread, someone responded to one of my posts by a rather insulting "Stereotypical bullshit" (I was explaining a somewhat typical situation in France, but this person, I assume, has never lived in France)

I explained in other words what I meant, but never was insulting myself (at least consciencely)

This is what I call being peaceful.....

This hanger-on says we should just ignore the guy from now on except when he has something constructive to say about Irish,no?

A reminder about what the hosts have to say on the matter:

quote:

Fáilte go dtí ár gCláriomrá. Tá an t-acra seo curtha ar fáil ag Daltaí na Gaeilge chun na Gaeilge a spreagadh; agus tá súil againn go mbainfidh tú taitneamh as. Má's tosaitheoir, cainteoir líofa nó cainteoir dúchais thú, glac páirt agus fáilte.

Welcome to the Daltaí na Gaeilge Discussion Boards. The Discussion Boards are provided by Daltaí na Gaeilge for the enjoyment and advancement of the Irish language. Whether a novice, advanced or native speaker, feel free to join in.


Táthar ag iarraidh ort go mbeadh do chuid teachtaireachtaí múinte agus bainteach leis an nGaeilge.

We do request that you keep your postings polite and related to the Irish language.

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/board-topics.html

It seems clear to me that J's funny writing is a response to people overreacting to his posts and logical so that he responds in funny language after every instance posted of people taking themselves too seriously. It's his form of comic relief, maybe, and so it doesn't bother me. The thing about a neighborhood is that nobody really should be kicked out or made feel unwelcome. If people want to just read and only occasionally post they shouldn't be labeled as cowards. I try to just skip over the posts from posters who express language and attitudes that bother me and I try not to use direct commands telling people what to do, because they come across as too harsh. I have trouble when I feel like someone is specifically targeting me or other participants who are trying to communicate. Maith dhom if I started this whole mess. But I feel that labeling people as vacuous or preaching about anyone's lack of correct grammar is so totally unproductive. Our personalities or nationalities shouldn't matter as much as what we have in common, which is interest in Irish.

Ná ní dhaoraimse thú ach oiread.

Maybe we all ought to inscribe this on our posts for awhile until we get the hang of it.

Tá gearrscéal ag an Conaireach bunaithe ar an eachtra úd - an chéad cloch.