mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (May-June) » Archive through May 20, 2005 » Cén difríocht idir "ní" agus "cha"??? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Celtoid
Member
Username: Celtoid

Post Number: 81
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 07:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Chan ólaim é.
I do not drink it.

Ní ólaim é.
I do not drink it.

I don't get the difference. Do they mean exactly the same thing, or is there a subtle difference I'm not picking up on?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mise
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 80.3.64.9
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 08:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Chan is only used by some Ulster dialect speakers.
Ní is the standard form.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1382
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 08:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cha bhfuil difir ar bith ann! Gaelg Uladh atá i gCha, Ní a bhíonn ag an gcuid eile againn.



cha [mír dhiúltach] ní
chan an leagan de cha roimh ghuta nó f a leanann guta é
char an leagan de cha roimh an aimsir chaite.


(Message edited by aonghus on May 10, 2005)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 304
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Aonghas, we don't say cha bhfuil but chan fhuil ;-)

Yeah it's an Ulster negative particle. The more you go north-eastern, the more people use 'cha' instead of 'ní’. In southwestern Donegal, they know it but mostly use it in emphatic answers. In Northeastern Donegal (Ros Goill), they almost never use 'ní’. Ní is majoritary on the southern part of Gweedore river; on its northern part (Gweedore, Cloich Cheannaola, Tory, Ros Goill), you'll here more "cha".

In some northern DOnegal dialects, cha is followed by an eclipsis, in other ones, mostly by e lenition.

Another strange feature: after "cha", you can't use the future tense, even in a future meaning, u have to use the present habitual. So, "cha gcluinim" can mean "i don't hear" or "i won't hear", etc.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1386
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 04:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Lughaidh, "A Aonghuis" an tuiseal gairmeach de m'ainm, agus Aonghus (seachas -ghas) is ainm dom. Bheinn buíoch díot ach é sin a chuir san áireamh.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Diarmo
Member
Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 113
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 04:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní and Cha come from níchon in old Irish if I am not wrong? Thats what is in O Dineen's dictionary anyway!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1387
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 04:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ó Mac Bain:
http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb08.html#cha

cha, cha'n
not, Irish nocha n-, Old Irish ní con aspirating. The particle no or nu is no part of this negative: only ní and con, "non quod", con being the same as gu'n. Aspirating power of it is as yet unexplained. Ulster Irish cha.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 182
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

According to Thomas O'Rahilly
Ulster writers evidently regarded cha as a vulgarism, something which, however frequent in the mouths of the common people, was unworthy of literary use.

Donegal writers like Fr. Maghnas Ó Domhnaill (1706) and Bishop Gallagher (1736) deliberately ignore it; and so indeed does Neilson (S. E. Ulster) in his Grammar, later still (1808). In the Oriel poets of the eighteenth century cha occurs very sparingly, and only, as a rule, in nineteenth-century transcripts.
Thomas F. O’Rahilly, Irish Dialects Past and Present, Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1932, lch. 165
I wondered if that was true of more modern Ulster writers so I looked up the frequency of use of cha and ni for Ulster writers in Tobar na Gaedhilge v. 1.2 The results are tabulated below.

Údair ó Chuige UlaidhCéadtadán ChaCha
Tadhg Ó Rabhartaigh25.88%205587
Séamus Mac an Bháird21.95%932
Séamus Ó Searchaigh9.59%14132
Pádraig Ó Gallchobair2.13%8368
Niall Ó Domhaill0.84%5590
Seaghán Mac Meanman0.81%253,043
Domhnall Mac Grianna0.77%192,454
Seosamh Mac Grianna0.33%144,245
Séamus Ó Grianna0.29%258,578
Aindrias Ó Baoighill0.00%046
Proinnsias Ó Brógáin0.00%0872
Ar Meán / Suim Iomlán1.52%32420,947


Seamus Ó Grianna used cha in his early writings, but avoided it in his later work.

PublishedCha Céadtadán Cha
Séamus Ó Grianna
1Caisleáin Óir1924172845.65%
2Mo Dhá Róisín 192172282.98%
3Nuair a Bhí Mé Óg194216130.16%
4An Clár is an Fhoireann195506730.00%
5An Teach nár Tógadh194804690.00%
6Bean Ruadh de Dhálach196601,1790.00%
7Cioth is Dealán192603270.00%
8Faoi Chrann Smola193406650.00%
9Iascaire Inse Tuile195205230.00%
10Le Clap-Sholus196709180.00%
11Micheál Ruadh192501120.00%
12Rann na Feirste194206140.00%
13Saoghal Corrach194507620.00%
14Scéal Úr agus Sean-Scéal195007190.00%
15Thiar i dTír Chonaill194004920.00%
Suim iomlan258,5780.29%


Ó Grianna's use of cha was greatest in Caisleán Óir, but of the 17 times he used it, 14 uses were in quotation marks.

1 - ag toiseacht ar lch 14, líne 1
Mur' bhfuil ag Dia cha bhíonn scraith os ar gcionn faoi
mhaidín.”
2 - ag toiseacht ar lch 22, líne 15
“Cha bhíonn an purt sin thuas i gcómhnuidhe aige” ars
Anna.
3 - ag toiseacht ar lch 31, líne 13
Cha leig an eagla daobhtha 'ghabhail taobh amach de
dhoras ó rachas sé 'sholus.
4 - ag toiseacht ar lch 45, líne 6
Cha dtugann, acht ar shiubhal 'na leath-dhuine fríd
ghreallógaí an bhaile.
5 - ag toiseacht ar lch 48, líne 21
“Cha dtáinig aon nduine isteach, ar do cheairthlín go
fóill, a Shéimidh, agus í thuas agat le conablach cheithre
n-uair fichead,” arsa Éamonn tráthnóna an lá thar na
bhárach.
6 - ag toiseacht ar lch 52, líne 5
“Cha bhíonn súil agaibh le fosgladh ar ball nuair a
chaithfeas sibh éirghe chuig an eiséirghe.”
7 - ag toiseacht ar lch 58, líne 22
“Cha deachaidh sibh 'luighe?” ar seisean.
8 - ag toiseacht ar lch 58, líne 23
“Cha deachaidh.
9 - ag toiseacht ar lch 67, líne 11
“Cha rabh.”
10 - ag toiseacht ar lch 73, líne 1
“Cha roisim-sa iad ar scor ar bith” arsa Babaí.
11 - ag toiseacht ar lch 96, líne 14
“Orú maise, cha dtéidhim-sa leis ar chor a' bith, nó ní
lúgha orm a' diabhal 'ná é.” arsa Babaí.
12 - ag toiseacht ar lch 113, líne 13
“Cha dtómhaisfeá cá rabh mé, 'Shéimidh?” ar seisean.
13 - ag toiseacht ar lch 120, líne 22
“Cha bháithtear” arsa Donnchadh Mór.
14 - ag toiseacht ar lch 136, líne 7
Cha dtugann sé 'aithreachas ar dhá phighinn nuair a bhéas
seachtmhain caithte aige ar a' bhealach mhór ar lorg
oibre.”
15 - ag toiseacht ar lch 184, líne 8
“Cha bhíonn.
16 - ag toiseacht ar lch 220, líne 17
Cha rabh fios.
17 - ag toiseacht ar lch 234, líne 11
“Cha deán sé mar sin an sgéal an iarraidh seo” ars an
chéad bhean.


So I assume Donegal writers still tend to think of cha as vulgar.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 199
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

You guys AMAZE me!!!

I'm still trying to figure out ta vs is and you guys are debating the origins and proper vs improper uses of cha....

One day I'll be at your level...one day!!

Either Lucas is far smarter than I already thought or he has WAY too much free time on his hands!

Le meas,

James

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1392
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:32 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Just intelligent (and experienced) use of computers and the internet I suspect.

I'd be surprised if it took Lúcas more than 5 mins to assemble the message above. The "smart" part was having read and remembered the O Rahilly quote which triggered him.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jax
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.36
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Donegal writers like Fr. Maghnas Ó Domhnaill (1706) and Bishop Gallagher (1736) deliberately ignore it; and so indeed does Neilson (S. E. Ulster) in his Grammar, later still (1808). In the Oriel poets of the eighteenth century cha occurs very sparingly, and only, as a rule, in nineteenth-century transcripts.

Funny all that, been so particular.

They are all dead, and their decendants speak not a word or Irish, and ní vs. cha worried them so much...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 183
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James,

You are way too kind. Aonghus was right. Ciarán Ó Duibhín did all the heavy lifting creating the Tobar database and populating it with all those books. It did not take much time to come the above relsult. I just imported some of the data from the Tobar database output into Microsoft Excel and wrote a few scripts to reformat and tabulate the data. I did it for a "short ten minute" report for the Irish class I take at NYU.

I am often wrong. In the report, I quoted Ó Rahilly a little more
Introduced into Ireland by the Scots, cha established itself firmly in Ulster, so much so that in the spoken language of the greater part of the province it was practically the only negative employed. In Donegal both cha and are in use to-day; in the south of that county the common negative is , cha being rare, but in Inishowen and Fanad in the extreme north, it appears that cha alone is employed, except in níl.
Ó Rahilly argues that the Scots planters and Gallowglasses brought cha to Ulster. I continued the argument saying that Irish spailpíní and naibhithe may also have brought cha back from Scotland.

However, I may have been wrong. My teacher pointed out that the Ulster Irish natives would probably not have had much communication between na plandalaí agus na gallóglaigh. Gaeilge na hAlbain and Gaeilge na hÉirinn had diverged to the point that they would have been mutually unintelligble. That is even more so with na spailpíní agus na naibhithe. My teacher is a native speaker from Gweedore. Another friend of mine who lives in Gweedore said the idea was bulls**t. (No. It was not Fear na mBróg.)

As Diarmo and Aonghus pointed out earlier in this thread, cha came from Old Irish. Even Ó Rahilly points says this, apparently contradicting himself.
In Old and Early Middle Irish there were two negative adverbs, and, nocha (earlier nícon), which were identical in meaning except that the latter was the more emphatic. In Irish nocha gradually dropped out of use, and from about the middle of the fourteenth century it disappears almost entirely from Irish prose, while preserved in verse (for reasons of metrical utility) for a few centuries longer. In Scotland the reverse happened; of the two negatives has dropped out of use, and only nocha, in the worndown form of cha, has survived.
Ibid. p. 165.
This evolution from Old Irish as been tracked in other publications, e.g.,
11.7 Chomh maith leis an mír dhiúltach ní, úsáidtear coitianta an mhír a shíolraíonn ó SG nícon. Is annamh a fhaightear í sa chéad siolla, m.sh. nichom cráidfe `ní bhuairfidh sé mé', SR 1210
De ghnáth is o atá sa chéad siolla, go hannamh a, tagann -ch- in áit an -c- stairiúil, agus bíonn an -n le fáil inte roimh ghutaí agus f séimhithe amháin (nil aon rialtacht sa tslí ina litrítear an n seo in eagráin nua-aimseartha, uaireanta mar chuid den mhír dhiúltach féin, agus uaireanta eile mar urú ar an bhfocal a leanann í), m.sh. noco derna `ní dhearna sé', SR 1982, nocon faigbe `ní bhfaighidh tú', LL 28506 (MD), nochon anat Ulaid `ní fhanann na hUltaigh', LL 22950 (CRR), nachas creitiu `ní chreidim iad', SR 4700, le séimhiú soiléir, noco chelim `ní cheilim', LL 37844 (Bór), leis an gcopail, noco n-assa `ní furasta', LL 38523 (Bór), nocho chert `ní ceart', LL 22951 (CRR).
Liam Breatnach, “An Mheáin-Ghaeilge,” Caibidil III, Stair Na Gaeilge, Leinster Leader Ltd, 1994, lch. 280
I am not even "smart" enough to be certain O'Rahilly's assertion is wrong. What confounds me is the fact that Luaghaidh made about not using cha in the future tense. O'Rahilly uses it to assert his claim that cha came to Donegal from Scotland.
Clear proof of the extraneous origin of Ulster cha is to be found in the fact that cha is never used with the future tense, the present being used instead. In Scottish and in Manx, as we have seen (p. 131), the present tense has taken over the functions of the future, so that ` he will go ' is expressed by théid e (Manx hed eh), the corresponding negative expression being cha déid e (Manx cha jed eh), ` he will not go.' In Irish there has been no confusion between the two tenses; but, following the Scottish (and Manx) usage the present tense must always, when cha precedes, be used to express a future meaning, e.g. cha dtéid se, ` he will not go,' in contrast to racha se, ` he will go.'
Ibid. lch 167.
So, James, no matter how far your Irish studies may go, I think there will always be mysteries of syntax, usage, etymology, and philology to engage you. Luaghaidh, do you think cha came from Scots Irish influence? Any Celtic philologists out there with an opinion?

(Message edited by lúcas on May 12, 2005)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 193.1.100.105
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 07:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>>>I am not even "smart" enough to be certain O'Rahilly's assertion is wrong.

Is ansin a bhí O Rahilly meallta a Lúcáis. Ba é an foirceann ar leith -(e)ann/-(a)íonn don Aimsir Láithreach an nuaíocht i dteanga na Gaeilge agus níorbh é droim ar ais. Is í minicíocht an Fháistinigh i gcaint na linne seo ceann de na sain-nithe suntais a dhealaíos Gaeilg an chainteora dhúchais ón a mhalairt. 'Gné an Bhriathair' a thugaimid air, nó Verbal Aspect.

Breathnaigh:

Tiocfaidh tú isteach san áit an lá seo agus cad a fheiceann tú romhat ach cat crainn.
You come into the place one day and what do you see in front of you but a pine marten.

Dá n-abrófaí 'Tagann tú isteach san áit an lá seo ...' ba as an mBéarla a thuigfí a raibh i gceist leis.


Ní bhíodh deilbh ar leith (-e/ann & -a/íonn) ag an Aimsir Láithreach sa Ghaelainn fadó. Is amhlaidh i nGaelainn na hAlban fós féin é. Is minic an A. Fh. in ionad na hAimsire Láithrí i nGaelainn na hÉireann sa lá inniu féin ar údar staire teanga. Nuaíocht is ea an Aims. Láith.

Is é an mhíthuiscint Ghné máthair gach cásaimh an chainteora dúchais a déarfas nach í Gaelainn ghasúir na scoile an Ghaelainn chéanna atá aige féin. Samhlaítear do dhaoine gur stór focail is bun le caint den chineál san de ghnáth, m.sh. gluaisteán/carr, frog/loscann is aroile. Is iondúil, áfach, gur 'Gné' is bun leis an gcuid is mó den ghearán ag cainteoirí dúchais Gaeilge. (Dealaíonn 'díghlórú consain' an dá chineál cainteora óna chéile fairis sin.)


>>>In Irish there has been no confusion between the two tenses;

Léirigh O Rahilly a chontráilte is a bhí sé leis an ráiteas sin.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 306
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>A Lughaidh, "A Aonghuis" an tuiseal gairmeach de >m'ainm, agus Aonghus (seachas -ghas) is ainm dom. >Bheinn buíoch díot ach é sin a chuir san áireamh.

Maidir leis an tuiseal ghairmeach, is dóigh liom gur meancóg phróiseála atá ann siocair go bhfuil 's agam go bhfaighfí "Aonghuis/Aonghais" sa t. ghairmeach.
Maidir le litriú Aonghas/-us, bhuel is seanlitriú "Aonghus" agus litriú nuaidh "Aonghas" - rud céarna le Séamas/ Séamus, ach 's cuma: feasta 's cuimhin liom sin.


Lúcás > i don't think that "cha" comes from Scotland: "cha" exists in Ireland and has always existed there.

A Sheosaimh, maidir leis an aimsir láithreach, gura cuimhin leat go bhfuil foirm eile le fáil i gcaint na seanchaithe, a chríochnaíos le -idh: aimsir láithreach atá ann ach ní gnáthláithreach (gnáthláithreach na foirmeacha le -eann, -ann, -íonn srl), agus baintear feidhm as sna scéaltaí don chuid is mó:
i come : thigidh mé
he does: ghnídh sé
he sleeps: codlaidh sé, srl

Sin an aimsir láithreach stairiúil - féach moirfeolaíocht na Sean-Ghaeilge.
Is minic a chluintear i gcaint na seanchaithe sin ach chan minic ins a' chaint normálta. Mhol Ciarán O Duibhín ar a shuíomh é, ionas go seachnaítear meancógaí mar "i ndiaidh dá mháthair bás a fháil, *téann sé 'na bhaile..." (ní foirm ghnáthláithreach ba chóir a úsáid anseo mar nach gnách lena mháthair bás a dh'fháil...)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 193.1.100.104
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Sea, rinne mé leathcheal ar an gConallach nuair nár thagair mé dá chleachtú seisean ach gur thagair don Albanach amháin.

An foirceann –(a)idh: A. Láithreach Táscach, tríú pearsa uatha. Le loime na foirme spleáiche agus le neamhrialtacht, is coimeádaí i bhfad an briathar sa taobh ó thuaidh (Tír Chon., & M. Eo lena chuid féin): an bhfeiceann/ tchí/tchím, an dtugann/ bheir, an gcluin/ cluinim/cloisim, an ndearna/ rinn', an ndéanadh/níodh, an dtabharfaidh/ bhéarfaidh, srl.
A mhalairt a shamhlaítear go minic mar gheall ar luí na Mumhan leis na seanfhoirmeacha táite.
Mhair an eisceacht ó thuaidh, siocaithe san amhrán: 'Téir abhaile riú, ...' ach is dóigh go bhfuil correisceacht eile thart ach nár bhac muid lena mheas.



©Daltaí na Gaeilge