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Celtoid
Member Username: Celtoid
Post Number: 81 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 07:42 am: |
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Chan ólaim é. I do not drink it. Ní ólaim é. I do not drink it. I don't get the difference. Do they mean exactly the same thing, or is there a subtle difference I'm not picking up on? |
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Mise Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 08:47 am: |
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Chan is only used by some Ulster dialect speakers. Ní is the standard form. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1382 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 08:58 am: |
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Cha bhfuil difir ar bith ann! Gaelg Uladh atá i gCha, Ní a bhíonn ag an gcuid eile againn.
cha [mír dhiúltach] ní chan an leagan de cha roimh ghuta nó f a leanann guta é char an leagan de cha roimh an aimsir chaite. (Message edited by aonghus on May 10, 2005) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 304 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 04:04 pm: |
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A Aonghas, we don't say cha bhfuil but chan fhuil ;-) Yeah it's an Ulster negative particle. The more you go north-eastern, the more people use 'cha' instead of 'ní’. In southwestern Donegal, they know it but mostly use it in emphatic answers. In Northeastern Donegal (Ros Goill), they almost never use 'ní’. Ní is majoritary on the southern part of Gweedore river; on its northern part (Gweedore, Cloich Cheannaola, Tory, Ros Goill), you'll here more "cha". In some northern DOnegal dialects, cha is followed by an eclipsis, in other ones, mostly by e lenition. Another strange feature: after "cha", you can't use the future tense, even in a future meaning, u have to use the present habitual. So, "cha gcluinim" can mean "i don't hear" or "i won't hear", etc. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1386 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 04:34 am: |
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A Lughaidh, "A Aonghuis" an tuiseal gairmeach de m'ainm, agus Aonghus (seachas -ghas) is ainm dom. Bheinn buíoch díot ach é sin a chuir san áireamh. |
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Diarmo
Member Username: Diarmo
Post Number: 113 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 04:38 am: |
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Ní and Cha come from níchon in old Irish if I am not wrong? Thats what is in O Dineen's dictionary anyway! |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1387 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 04:48 am: |
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Ó Mac Bain: http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb08.html#cha cha, cha'n not, Irish nocha n-, Old Irish ní con aspirating. The particle no or nu is no part of this negative: only ní and con, "non quod", con being the same as gu'n. Aspirating power of it is as yet unexplained. Ulster Irish cha. |
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 182 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:25 am: |
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According to Thomas O'Rahilly Ulster writers evidently regarded cha as a vulgarism, something which, however frequent in the mouths of the common people, was unworthy of literary use. Donegal writers like Fr. Maghnas Ó Domhnaill (1706) and Bishop Gallagher (1736) deliberately ignore it; and so indeed does Neilson (S. E. Ulster) in his Grammar, later still (1808). In the Oriel poets of the eighteenth century cha occurs very sparingly, and only, as a rule, in nineteenth-century transcripts.Thomas F. O’Rahilly, Irish Dialects Past and Present, Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1932, lch. 165 I wondered if that was true of more modern Ulster writers so I looked up the frequency of use of cha and ni for Ulster writers in Tobar na Gaedhilge v. 1.2 The results are tabulated below. Údair ó Chuige Ulaidh | Céadtadán Cha | Cha | Ní | Tadhg Ó Rabhartaigh | 25.88% | 205 | 587 | Séamus Mac an Bháird | 21.95% | 9 | 32 | Séamus Ó Searchaigh | 9.59% | 14 | 132 | Pádraig Ó Gallchobair | 2.13% | 8 | 368 | Niall Ó Domhaill | 0.84% | 5 | 590 | Seaghán Mac Meanman | 0.81% | 25 | 3,043 | Domhnall Mac Grianna | 0.77% | 19 | 2,454 | Seosamh Mac Grianna | 0.33% | 14 | 4,245 | Séamus Ó Grianna | 0.29% | 25 | 8,578 | Aindrias Ó Baoighill | 0.00% | 0 | 46 | Proinnsias Ó Brógáin | 0.00% | 0 | 872 | Ar Meán / Suim Iomlán | 1.52% | 324 | 20,947 | Seamus Ó Grianna used cha in his early writings, but avoided it in his later work. | | Published | Cha | Ní | Céadtadán Cha | Séamus Ó Grianna | | | | | | 1 | Caisleáin Óir | 1924 | 17 | 284 | 5.65% | 2 | Mo Dhá Róisín | 1921 | 7 | 228 | 2.98% | 3 | Nuair a Bhí Mé Óg | 1942 | 1 | 613 | 0.16% | 4 | An Clár is an Fhoireann | 1955 | 0 | 673 | 0.00% | 5 | An Teach nár Tógadh | 1948 | 0 | 469 | 0.00% | 6 | Bean Ruadh de Dhálach | 1966 | 0 | 1,179 | 0.00% | 7 | Cioth is Dealán | 1926 | 0 | 327 | 0.00% | 8 | Faoi Chrann Smola | 1934 | 0 | 665 | 0.00% | 9 | Iascaire Inse Tuile | 1952 | 0 | 523 | 0.00% | 10 | Le Clap-Sholus | 1967 | 0 | 918 | 0.00% | 11 | Micheál Ruadh | 1925 | 0 | 112 | 0.00% | 12 | Rann na Feirste | 1942 | 0 | 614 | 0.00% | 13 | Saoghal Corrach | 1945 | 0 | 762 | 0.00% | 14 | Scéal Úr agus Sean-Scéal | 1950 | 0 | 719 | 0.00% | 15 | Thiar i dTír Chonaill | 1940 | 0 | 492 | 0.00% | | Suim iomlan | | 25 | 8,578 | 0.29% | Ó Grianna's use of cha was greatest in Caisleán Óir, but of the 17 times he used it, 14 uses were in quotation marks. 1 - ag toiseacht ar lch 14, líne 1 | | | | | Mur' bhfuil ag Dia cha bhíonn scraith os ar gcionn faoi | | mhaidín.” | | | | 2 - ag toiseacht ar lch 22, líne 15 | | | | “Cha bhíonn an purt sin thuas i gcómhnuidhe aige” ars | | Anna. | | | | 3 - ag toiseacht ar lch 31, líne 13 | | | | Cha leig an eagla daobhtha 'ghabhail taobh amach de | | dhoras ó rachas sé 'sholus. | | | | 4 - ag toiseacht ar lch 45, líne 6 | | | | Cha dtugann, acht ar shiubhal 'na leath-dhuine fríd | ghreallógaí an bhaile. | | 5 - ag toiseacht ar lch 48, líne 21 | | “Cha dtáinig aon nduine isteach, ar do cheairthlín go | fóill, a Shéimidh, agus í thuas agat le conablach cheithre | n-uair fichead,” arsa Éamonn tráthnóna an lá thar na | bhárach. | | 6 - ag toiseacht ar lch 52, líne 5 | | “Cha bhíonn súil agaibh le fosgladh ar ball nuair a | chaithfeas sibh éirghe chuig an eiséirghe.” | | 7 - ag toiseacht ar lch 58, líne 22 | | “Cha deachaidh sibh 'luighe?” ar seisean. | | 8 - ag toiseacht ar lch 58, líne 23 | | “Cha deachaidh. | | 9 - ag toiseacht ar lch 67, líne 11 | | “Cha rabh.” | | 10 - ag toiseacht ar lch 73, líne 1 | | “Cha roisim-sa iad ar scor ar bith” arsa Babaí. | | 11 - ag toiseacht ar lch 96, líne 14 | | “Orú maise, cha dtéidhim-sa leis ar chor a' bith, nó ní | lúgha orm a' diabhal 'ná é.” arsa Babaí. | | 12 - ag toiseacht ar lch 113, líne 13 | | “Cha dtómhaisfeá cá rabh mé, 'Shéimidh?” ar seisean. | | 13 - ag toiseacht ar lch 120, líne 22 | | “Cha bháithtear” arsa Donnchadh Mór. | | 14 - ag toiseacht ar lch 136, líne 7 | | Cha dtugann sé 'aithreachas ar dhá phighinn nuair a bhéas | seachtmhain caithte aige ar a' bhealach mhór ar lorg | oibre.” | | 15 - ag toiseacht ar lch 184, líne 8 | | “Cha bhíonn. | | 16 - ag toiseacht ar lch 220, líne 17 | | Cha rabh fios. | | 17 - ag toiseacht ar lch 234, líne 11 | | “Cha deán sé mar sin an sgéal an iarraidh seo” ars an | chéad bhean. | So I assume Donegal writers still tend to think of cha as vulgar. Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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James
Member Username: James
Post Number: 199 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:18 am: |
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You guys AMAZE me!!! I'm still trying to figure out ta vs is and you guys are debating the origins and proper vs improper uses of cha.... One day I'll be at your level...one day!! Either Lucas is far smarter than I already thought or he has WAY too much free time on his hands! Le meas, James |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1392 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:32 am: |
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Just intelligent (and experienced) use of computers and the internet I suspect. I'd be surprised if it took Lúcas more than 5 mins to assemble the message above. The "smart" part was having read and remembered the O Rahilly quote which triggered him. |
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Jax Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
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Donegal writers like Fr. Maghnas Ó Domhnaill (1706) and Bishop Gallagher (1736) deliberately ignore it; and so indeed does Neilson (S. E. Ulster) in his Grammar, later still (1808). In the Oriel poets of the eighteenth century cha occurs very sparingly, and only, as a rule, in nineteenth-century transcripts. Funny all that, been so particular. They are all dead, and their decendants speak not a word or Irish, and ní vs. cha worried them so much... |
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 183 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:02 am: |
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James, You are way too kind. Aonghus was right. Ciarán Ó Duibhín did all the heavy lifting creating the Tobar database and populating it with all those books. It did not take much time to come the above relsult. I just imported some of the data from the Tobar database output into Microsoft Excel and wrote a few scripts to reformat and tabulate the data. I did it for a "short ten minute" report for the Irish class I take at NYU. I am often wrong. In the report, I quoted Ó Rahilly a little more Introduced into Ireland by the Scots, cha established itself firmly in Ulster, so much so that in the spoken language of the greater part of the province it was practically the only negative employed. In Donegal both cha and ní are in use to-day; in the south of that county the common negative is ní, cha being rare, but in Inishowen and Fanad in the extreme north, it appears that cha alone is employed, except in níl. Ó Rahilly argues that the Scots planters and Gallowglasses brought cha to Ulster. I continued the argument saying that Irish spailpíní and naibhithe may also have brought cha back from Scotland. However, I may have been wrong. My teacher pointed out that the Ulster Irish natives would probably not have had much communication between na plandalaí agus na gallóglaigh. Gaeilge na hAlbain and Gaeilge na hÉirinn had diverged to the point that they would have been mutually unintelligble. That is even more so with na spailpíní agus na naibhithe. My teacher is a native speaker from Gweedore. Another friend of mine who lives in Gweedore said the idea was bulls**t. (No. It was not Fear na mBróg.) As Diarmo and Aonghus pointed out earlier in this thread, cha came from Old Irish. Even Ó Rahilly points says this, apparently contradicting himself. In Old and Early Middle Irish there were two negative adverbs, ní and, nocha (earlier nícon), which were identical in meaning except that the latter was the more emphatic. In Irish nocha gradually dropped out of use, and from about the middle of the fourteenth century it disappears almost entirely from Irish prose, while preserved in verse (for reasons of metrical utility) for a few centuries longer. In Scotland the reverse happened; of the two negatives ní has dropped out of use, and only nocha, in the worndown form of cha, has survived.Ibid. p. 165. This evolution from Old Irish as been tracked in other publications, e.g., 11.7 Chomh maith leis an mír dhiúltach ní, úsáidtear coitianta an mhír a shíolraíonn ó SG nícon. Is annamh a fhaightear í sa chéad siolla, m.sh. nichom cráidfe `ní bhuairfidh sé mé', SR 1210 De ghnáth is o atá sa chéad siolla, go hannamh a, tagann -ch- in áit an -c- stairiúil, agus bíonn an -n le fáil inte roimh ghutaí agus f séimhithe amháin (nil aon rialtacht sa tslí ina litrítear an n seo in eagráin nua-aimseartha, uaireanta mar chuid den mhír dhiúltach féin, agus uaireanta eile mar urú ar an bhfocal a leanann í), m.sh. noco derna `ní dhearna sé', SR 1982, nocon faigbe `ní bhfaighidh tú', LL 28506 (MD), nochon anat Ulaid `ní fhanann na hUltaigh', LL 22950 (CRR), nachas creitiu `ní chreidim iad', SR 4700, le séimhiú soiléir, noco chelim `ní cheilim', LL 37844 (Bór), leis an gcopail, noco n-assa `ní furasta', LL 38523 (Bór), nocho chert `ní ceart', LL 22951 (CRR).Liam Breatnach, “An Mheáin-Ghaeilge,” Caibidil III, Stair Na Gaeilge, Leinster Leader Ltd, 1994, lch. 280 I am not even "smart" enough to be certain O'Rahilly's assertion is wrong. What confounds me is the fact that Luaghaidh made about not using cha in the future tense. O'Rahilly uses it to assert his claim that cha came to Donegal from Scotland. Clear proof of the extraneous origin of Ulster cha is to be found in the fact that cha is never used with the future tense, the present being used instead. In Scottish and in Manx, as we have seen (p. 131), the present tense has taken over the functions of the future, so that ` he will go ' is expressed by théid e (Manx hed eh), the corresponding negative expression being cha déid e (Manx cha jed eh), ` he will not go.' In Irish there has been no confusion between the two tenses; but, following the Scottish (and Manx) usage the present tense must always, when cha precedes, be used to express a future meaning, e.g. cha dtéid se, ` he will not go,' in contrast to racha se, ` he will go.'Ibid. lch 167. So, James, no matter how far your Irish studies may go, I think there will always be mysteries of syntax, usage, etymology, and philology to engage you. Luaghaidh, do you think cha came from Scots Irish influence? Any Celtic philologists out there with an opinion? (Message edited by lúcas on May 12, 2005) Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Seosamh Mac Muirí Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 07:39 am: |
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>>>I am not even "smart" enough to be certain O'Rahilly's assertion is wrong. Is ansin a bhí O Rahilly meallta a Lúcáis. Ba é an foirceann ar leith -(e)ann/-(a)íonn don Aimsir Láithreach an nuaíocht i dteanga na Gaeilge agus níorbh é droim ar ais. Is í minicíocht an Fháistinigh i gcaint na linne seo ceann de na sain-nithe suntais a dhealaíos Gaeilg an chainteora dhúchais ón a mhalairt. 'Gné an Bhriathair' a thugaimid air, nó Verbal Aspect. Breathnaigh: Tiocfaidh tú isteach san áit an lá seo agus cad a fheiceann tú romhat ach cat crainn. You come into the place one day and what do you see in front of you but a pine marten. Dá n-abrófaí 'Tagann tú isteach san áit an lá seo ...' ba as an mBéarla a thuigfí a raibh i gceist leis. Ní bhíodh deilbh ar leith (-e/ann & -a/íonn) ag an Aimsir Láithreach sa Ghaelainn fadó. Is amhlaidh i nGaelainn na hAlban fós féin é. Is minic an A. Fh. in ionad na hAimsire Láithrí i nGaelainn na hÉireann sa lá inniu féin ar údar staire teanga. Nuaíocht is ea an Aims. Láith. Is é an mhíthuiscint Ghné máthair gach cásaimh an chainteora dúchais a déarfas nach í Gaelainn ghasúir na scoile an Ghaelainn chéanna atá aige féin. Samhlaítear do dhaoine gur stór focail is bun le caint den chineál san de ghnáth, m.sh. gluaisteán/carr, frog/loscann is aroile. Is iondúil, áfach, gur 'Gné' is bun leis an gcuid is mó den ghearán ag cainteoirí dúchais Gaeilge. (Dealaíonn 'díghlórú consain' an dá chineál cainteora óna chéile fairis sin.) >>>In Irish there has been no confusion between the two tenses; Léirigh O Rahilly a chontráilte is a bhí sé leis an ráiteas sin. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 306 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 07:49 pm: |
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>A Lughaidh, "A Aonghuis" an tuiseal gairmeach de >m'ainm, agus Aonghus (seachas -ghas) is ainm dom. >Bheinn buíoch díot ach é sin a chuir san áireamh. Maidir leis an tuiseal ghairmeach, is dóigh liom gur meancóg phróiseála atá ann siocair go bhfuil 's agam go bhfaighfí "Aonghuis/Aonghais" sa t. ghairmeach. Maidir le litriú Aonghas/-us, bhuel is seanlitriú "Aonghus" agus litriú nuaidh "Aonghas" - rud céarna le Séamas/ Séamus, ach 's cuma: feasta 's cuimhin liom sin. Lúcás > i don't think that "cha" comes from Scotland: "cha" exists in Ireland and has always existed there. A Sheosaimh, maidir leis an aimsir láithreach, gura cuimhin leat go bhfuil foirm eile le fáil i gcaint na seanchaithe, a chríochnaíos le -idh: aimsir láithreach atá ann ach ní gnáthláithreach (gnáthláithreach na foirmeacha le -eann, -ann, -íonn srl), agus baintear feidhm as sna scéaltaí don chuid is mó: i come : thigidh mé he does: ghnídh sé he sleeps: codlaidh sé, srl Sin an aimsir láithreach stairiúil - féach moirfeolaíocht na Sean-Ghaeilge. Is minic a chluintear i gcaint na seanchaithe sin ach chan minic ins a' chaint normálta. Mhol Ciarán O Duibhín ar a shuíomh é, ionas go seachnaítear meancógaí mar "i ndiaidh dá mháthair bás a fháil, *téann sé 'na bhaile..." (ní foirm ghnáthláithreach ba chóir a úsáid anseo mar nach gnách lena mháthair bás a dh'fháil...) |
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Seosamh Mac Muirí Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 01:29 pm: |
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Sea, rinne mé leathcheal ar an gConallach nuair nár thagair mé dá chleachtú seisean ach gur thagair don Albanach amháin. An foirceann –(a)idh: A. Láithreach Táscach, tríú pearsa uatha. Le loime na foirme spleáiche agus le neamhrialtacht, is coimeádaí i bhfad an briathar sa taobh ó thuaidh (Tír Chon., & M. Eo lena chuid féin): an bhfeiceann/ tchí/tchím, an dtugann/ bheir, an gcluin/ cluinim/cloisim, an ndearna/ rinn', an ndéanadh/níodh, an dtabharfaidh/ bhéarfaidh, srl. A mhalairt a shamhlaítear go minic mar gheall ar luí na Mumhan leis na seanfhoirmeacha táite. Mhair an eisceacht ó thuaidh, siocaithe san amhrán: 'Téir abhaile riú, ...' ach is dóigh go bhfuil correisceacht eile thart ach nár bhac muid lena mheas. |
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