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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (May-June) » Archive through May 20, 2005 » How are your students doing Cailin? « Previous Next »

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 110
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

How are your Irish students in Phibsborough doing?

From what countries are they?

D

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Cailindoll
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Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 68
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

So far so good. It varies. We had students from Congo, Nigeria, Ukraine, Romania, France and Bangladesh last night. Téigh go dtí an tIonad Buail isteach amárach [www.ionad.org] idir a 1-2 más maith leat do chuid Romáinise agus Gaeilge a chleachtadh le Alina, mar dúirt sí go mbeidh sí ann!

: )

C

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Jax
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Posted From: 159.134.220.103
Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 04:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

any chance of teaching the locals how to speak english?

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Philosophe
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Username: Philosophe

Post Number: 43
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi!
I missed/can't find the discussion of the Irish classes. Cad iad na details? An bhfuil aon duine ábalta iad a dhéanamh nó an bhfuil baint ag do dhaltaí le hollscoil nó rud mar sin?
GRMA

p.s. feel free to correct my grammar anyone :)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1366
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post


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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 300
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Philosophe > most of the time, people who don't make mistakes ask for corrections, and people who make mistakes don't :-).

There's no mistake in your sentences. :)

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Cailindoll
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Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 70
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 03:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Many of those who don't specifically ask for corrections worry that if they do, their desire to communicate on this website will be quashed by others' need to preach grammar perfection. It's never the corrections that bother me, Lughaidh, but the tone that comes through when you correct. :-)

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 111
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is muinteoir Gaeilge Alina? Ba mhaith liom mo chuid Romanais a feabhsu cinnte! GRMA a Chailin!

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Jax
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Posted From: 159.134.221.104
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 11:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

As an aside point - is it me, or am I the only one who fails to see the bad tone in Lughaidh's reply's?

Maybe it is because i ahve got the worse abuse of anyone who has been attacked and stayed around (and had numerous of my replies wiped by the admin!) that I do not see it.

But I supose, it can be disheartening if one has made an effort and then had it knocked down publically.

anyway, back to the thread:

Are irish people allowed to the class in Phibsboro? Or is it for newcummers to ireland?

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 533
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jax, 3 words:

spelling
punctuation
grammar

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Jax
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.104
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 12:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Fear_na_mbróg,
do U mín mí, or Looí hu haz bad spelen?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1384
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tusa, a mhac. Is deacair go minic do chuid Sacs Bhéarla a léamh, ós rud é go bhfuil do riailacha fhéin a chuir i bhfeidhm agat.

Is annamh botún ag Lughaidh ina chuid Béarla, cé nach é a teanga é, agus is fíor annamh locht ar a chuid Gaeilge. Bíonn canúint Gaoth Dobhair go paiteanta aige.

Níl ann ach go bhfuil a chuid beasa saghas francach... () agus é uaireanta ró dhíograiseach ag cáineadh, agus ró annamh ag moladh.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1385
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

recte: Thusa, a mhic. "a theanga"

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Cailindoll
Member
Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 71
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

We don't say no to anyone, or at least we haven't yet, Jax. But the idea is to help those who have never heard Irish before or never had it in school and thus would have a hard time in a normal beginner class. The folks at the Ionad Buail Isteach also do a coffee hour from 1-2 every Friday (tae agus caife agus caint as Gaeilge saor in aisce le daoine iontach fhailteach)and I believe 10:30 Sat mornings at the Ilac centre. They also do trips and other events. They sponsored the murder mystery dinner which went really well on Sunday night. Thanks to all for the translation help from the other thread. The line that was actually used sounded something like, 'A Phapa, na habair go raibh tú ag cheating ar Mhaman' (It was Casablanca theme with lots of attempts at French accents in Irish. It would have driven you crazy on all fronts, I fear but mostly ar taoibh fuaimnu de, a Lughaidh a chara, but we had a good time with it.

A Dhiarmo, ní múinteoir Gaeilge í Alina ach duine de [des?]na foghlaimeoirí. B'fhéidir go mbeidh suim aici tandem learning Romainis/Gaeilge a dhéanamh leat -- cuirfidh mé ceist uirthi más mian leat.

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Daisy
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Posted From: 12.75.189.204
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jax - More than one person has had trouble with Lughaidh's way of correcting things. His phrasing comes across as dictatorial rather than tutorial. He would not be happy if his mistakes in English were corrected in such a manner. As for your postings, i've often found it hard to believe that English was actually your language. And I'm sure you know that you weren't cut off because of your grammar and spelling. Vitriol is not a form of humor.

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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jeeze! #1 English is not his native language
#2 Lughaidh is a academic- brevity is his way
his posts are quite to the point, terse and to the point... but i "feel" no acrimony in the tone or camber of his responses on this forum. I don't believe he has time for what one may read into his words.
FMB wrote:
Jax, 3 words:

spelling
punctuation
grammar He is right!

So just read what is on the page put no emotions into the words in front of you.... unless there is direct insult put at you .02$

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Cailindoll
Member
Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 72
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 04:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

This is not brevity, Dan, read again:

'Philosophe > most of the time, people who don't make mistakes ask for corrections, and people who make mistakes don't :-).

This would be brevity:

'There's no mistake in your sentences. :)'

You don't have to read into his words, he's clearly preaching and it's not nice, despite the happy faces! He's sending a message that ye should all know your stuff as well as I do before writing on this forum. I wish I did know my grammar better and I'm working hard at improving -- reading and posting here helps. But messages like that slam the door. I'm not concerned for myself. I've enough love for Irish to rise above the negativity, but there are loads of people that read this site and are afraid to post for fear they will be pounced upon. I'm sure he doesn't mean to be so negative. He's not alone, either in his pedantic insistence on perfect sound, perfect grammar and dialectic preference. There's something about Irish that makes many people focus only on the errors and there are so many people out there that have loads of Irish locked in their heads but are too afraid of criticism to let it out. When a child is learning to speak, you correct their mistakes gently, encouragingly. Adults learning language should not be treated differently.

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Paul
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Posted From: 66.152.218.225
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I agree, Cailindoll.
I'm disheartened when I see people looking to pounce on the small mistake(s) that people make in their postings.
We all make mistakes, in both our spoken and written Irish and English. We're human. I strive for excellence, not perfection. Excellence is achievable.
If I wrote a 3-paragraph email and the only response I got
was " did you mean 'receive'? You wrote 'recieve'...
If I told someone "please give this to the man that is holding the leopard" and all I heard back was " 'the man
WHO is holding the leopard!!' "...
What would be the point of communication if that was the way we interacted with each other?
And it's becoming all too common here.

Le meas,
Paul

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 534
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

If I told someone "please give this to the man that is holding the leopard" and all I heard back was " 'the man
WHO is holding the leopard!!' "...
What would be the point of communication if that was the way we interacted with each other?
And it's becoming all too common here.



I disagree.

If some-one said to me:

When did you did it?
Do you has it?
I didn't went to school today.

Then I'd correct them.

I wouldn't correct:

Please give this to the man that is holding the leopard

because there's nothing wrong with it. "that" is a synonym for "which" or "who" in this context; whether a particular grammar book says so is irrelevant, this is how we communicate.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1390
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 08:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Moltar an leagan cheart a úsáid sa fhreagra seachas ceartú go borb.

It is recommended to reply using the correct form, rather than to curtly correct.

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 200
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Actually, FnamB you are incorrect. It is grammatically incorrect to use which or that when referencing people. It is COMMON to use them but not correct. But, it really doesn't matter because you will still be understood and, as I said, the use is quite common and the grammatical error is seldom noticed by the average english speaker. It is a small point and I don't mean to stir a debate.

Which, leads nicely into my next point, which is to address what I see as an ascendency of the "grammar police" on this site...and Looey is just one of several, so let's not pick on him. Their impact is present and prevalent.

Take a look at my level of participation a year ago. Compare it to today. It's less than 1/2 of what it used to be. I browse and I scan but I rarely respond and when I do, it's almost never in Irish. Why is this? Well, it's because I don't want to get smacked around for making a mistake! I want to be taught and encouraged and there's precious little of that on this site as of late. The stalwarts on whom I have come to depend are still here (Aonghus agus Lucas et.al.) but there is a new breed frequenting this site that seems to derive some degree of self-gratification from delivering the grammatical smack-down at every given chance. I would think that decades of this "ruler across the knuckles" approach would have taught us how ineffective this method of instruction is.

I've probably had more of the "Thank You Drill Sergeant, May I have another?" style of education than many on this site and, at 43 years of age, I've had my fill of it. To be rapped across the skull by some 20 something academic is insulting to me. It's not that I mind being wrong, and it's not that I mind being corrected. It's also not that I mind being corrected by someone younger...it's THE WAY IN WHICH I AM CORRECTED that has sucked the enthusiasm out of things.

If I don't enjoy the process of learning, I'm going to check out, either physically or mentally. The recent trend toward gestapo grammar has led to my growing mental detachment. I can't remember the last time I sat down to study "Learning Irish", nor can I remember the last time I delved into McGonagle. The fun has been sucked out of it and my desire to venture forth and try new words or new tenses or new expressions is just flat non-existant.

I'm still plugging away, though. I'll still be here and I'll continue to learn. I'm just doing it at a slower pace and I'm doing it less interactively. I still enjoy the language. I just don't enjoy trying it out on this forum as much as I used to...it has become too intimidating no to mention that it's just not fun anymore.

Le meas,

James

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Jax
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Posted From: 159.134.221.36
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Whats up James? At 11:18 am you blew your flute to Lúcas' listage, and by 11:57 am you were sour as a grape for the carnal grammar.

(Message edited by admin on May 11, 2005)

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Larry
Member
Username: Larry

Post Number: 60
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

James, a chara,

It's students such as yourself who keep this forum alive and I'm very sorry indeed to read that you don't get as much fun as before in visiting us here. I hope that your most recent post in this thread is only a temporary phase and that you'll soon be back to the "good ol' days".

As you're aware, it's sometimes difficult to convey intent in text. Some people (and I include myself here) don't always come across as teaching or offering constructive criticism. Rather they portray themselves as preachers, and in my case I apologise if any of my posts have appeared in such a light.

Le meas,

Larry Ackerman

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Jax
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.88
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Whats up James? At 11:18 am you blew your flute to Lúcas' listage, and by 11:57 am you were sour as a grape for the carnal grammar."

I meant 'bleedin' grammar.

What 'carnel grammar' is, I don't know.

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 201
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

At 11:58 I was expressing a respect and admiration for the abilities of individuals whom I admire. Theirs was not a debate nor a grammatical "smack-down." It was an intelligent, albeit way over my head, discussion about a dialectal nuance that has its origins in old Irish. It was impressive and was in response to a known participant who has a very good grasp of Irish. It was not a question posted by a neophyte. Nor was any part of their response belittling or demeaning.

What I am talking about on this thread is the rise of the grammar-nazis who don't take the time to teach so much as they take the opportunity to lecture and rather coarsely correct. Note the difference between the two. Teaching involves being sensitive to (I can't believe I'm using the word "sensitive")...being sensitive to the students' perspectives and levels of proficiency. Teaching is a nurturing activity that does not have a "one size fits all" component to it. Teaching, when done correctly, is an encouraging experience. What I see from the grammar-nazis is a rigid, IPA centric, dialectally biased concentration camp.

Mar sampla (quick...did I miss a fada???...or wait...is this the way they say it in Gweedore or is it Munster...????...OK...sarcasm in check)...Mar sampla:

Inquistive mind logs on and asks..."How do you say 'yes and no in Irish'?

Grammar Nazi response..."You cannot!!!! It simply does not exist. It dissapeared in the migration of Indo-slavic phonemes into the euro-celtic polysyllabic gutteral eructations we see today. Anyone who knows anything about language and lingustics should be well accquainted with this phenomenon!!!" This, of course would be followed by about eighteen lines of Croatian, Tyrolian, and Shelta all notated in IPA symbology that clearly indicate one thing...the respondent is really, really, really smart. What it hasn't done is teach a blasted thing.

In "The Good Ol' Days"...

Inquistive mind logs on and asks..."How do you say 'yes' and 'no' in Irish?"

Stalwart participant responds...

Well, young fresh mind seeking knowledge it's not that simple. You see, in Irish we respond more directly to what was asked. For example (Mar Sampla in Irish) if you asked "Are you sick" in Irish (An bhfuil tú tinn), we would respond "Táim" (if you were in Munster) or "Tá me tinn" if you were in Spideal. Or, you could just cut it short and say "Tá." This is because of a really unique part of Irish speech called the copula. The interogative form (interrogative is the cool guy grammar term we for use "question") of Tá is "An bhfuil". But, if you asked "Is the house red?" (An bhfuil dearg an teach)the response would be "It is" (Is ea). Because we have a different form of the copula, "Is", for permanent conditons. This is a very cumbersome part of Irish that gives beginners a fit! Hang in there, stay focused and use this site as much as possible...there are some really smart people here. If you have a question...odds are we can get it answered for you!!!

See the difference..one pontificates and belittles and, at best, intimidates. The other teaches and introduces words and sentence construction. And most importantly...it encourages the participant to come back and learn more!!!

That's what we're here for people...to encourage the use and expansion of the Irish language!!!! Not to pull out our respective grammatical phalluses so we can compare length!

Le meas,

James

Now...if any of my Irish is wrong watch how differently it gets corrected by the grammar nazis versus the stalwarts.

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Daisy
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Posted From: 12.75.238.249
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 06:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

James - You are right on target. The endless dronings in French, Spanish, Latvian, Martian and who knows what else certainly do nothing to improve anyone's knowledge of Irish. It's just a little spitting contest among the linguists, Their corrections are often snappish and rude. These are people who study endlessly, some have never held down a job but are still "students" well into their 30s. Those who do hold jobs are working in language-related fields. If the study of Irish were to be limited to these folks, it would soon become overly correct,, stiff and eventually dead. So keep on keeping on, James. As the old non-Latin proverb says, "Non carborundum illegitimati" .

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 202
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 06:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Daisy,

I appreciate your comments. But, lest we be accused of racism, nationalism, europhobism or some other such catch phrase of the day (and it can happen...but I won't dredge up old fights)...I have no problem with a conversation in French if it's going to help a native French speaker learn Irish. I have no problem with two Klingons ranting ad nauseum as Claoinghán if that's what it takes to advance Irish.

I just don't see the point in answering a neophyte's queries with curt, unenlightening comments. Nor do I see the value in responding to a beginner's english query with Manx, Shelta and Navaho comparisons. Nor do I see the value in feeding pronunciation through the funnel of IPA when all a person was asking for was a sip of Irish uisce.

I don't mean to imply that these have NO value, but one would be hard pressed to convince me that they have any value or relevance to beginning Irish.

The academic acheivments I respect. The constant bludgeoning with the rolled up diplomas I can do without.

Le meas,

James

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Cailindoll
Member
Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 75
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 07:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm a linguistics student in my thirties, but only because the warm, gentle, encouraging learning process I experienced at the Daltaí weekends motivated me to come back to school and learn more about teaching. I teach even though I don't have perfect skills in Irish and I continue to improve my teaching methods as well as my level of Irish in the process. James is right and he is not the only voice that is quieter now than it used to be. My studies have convinced me that what Irish language teaching needs more than grammar, or pronunciation, textbooks, or tapes, is kindness. Many of those who were bullied about their grammar errors as they learned somehow can't seem to help but bully others now - it's a knee-jerk response and it's understandable and it's fascinating to analyse but it needs to stop. What's important to remember is that all of us here love this language and want to see it thrive. We need to work at making sure our responses are always positive and helpful. Language acquisition is not a competitive sport. I wish you could all experience what the immersion weekends in the U.S. and Canada are like. If you did, you'd understand why the unpleasantness is so foreign to us and why I for one can't stop trying to be protective of this site.

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mahoo
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.231.21.109
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

with all the bickering and in fighting it is no wonder
Irish is an endangered language. do you think our ancestors left their language behind because English
had less people to criticise and correct? What I mean is with so much anger generated on this site for a few; we can ingore those who post rude or mean spirited things.
(James a chara don't you think it is rude to call lughaidh "looey"? but you demand respect and sensitivity
in his postings? as well as the postings from others) .....pot call kettle black
When a response is generated maybe the person wants the learner to figure out for himself why the answer he gave is right? {i will give you it but you have to find the rule that applys?} I still find this site has a lot of help to offer....the IPA thing is a little dumb but that makes some happy so let them be that way we ALL have the ability to ignore what we want to and respond to those we want le meas
Aloha kekahi i kekahi.
Pili mau nâ pô maika`i.

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Larry
Member
Username: Larry

Post Number: 61
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 06:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I'll bite...

The normal syntax for asking questions in Irish is:

[interrogative particle] + [verb] + [subject] + [adjective]

[An] + [bhfuil] + [an teach] + [dearg] = Is the house red?

An adjective normally follows the noun which it qualifies but there are some exceptions to this rule, for example possesive adjectives (mo, do, bhur, ár etc). If more than one adjective is used, for example "big red house", first place is given to the descriptive adjective (an teach mór dearg)

And, for the record, I'm a student in my fifties.

Le meas,

Larry Ackerman

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Deoch
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Posted From: 83.71.9.131
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 07:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Aloha kekahi i kekahi.
Pili mau nâ pô maika`i.

Hows things in hawaii?

What is it 13 sounds in Hawaiian? Oh, to be surfing on the North Shore of Oahu...and with prices that make Ireland look considerate...

Do you use the IPA as well? :)

I think some of the postings are more emotional than rationally considered. Mar shampla, the issue of using phonetics to designate the sound of a particular word.

Every language has its own set of sounds, and there are differences between languages. If one system can be agreed upon, why not use that? If one exists already, why not learn it? The only problem is that we have no mp3s to associate with the IPA symbols, so for many people /mo xat @ ga:r'@/ and its ilk are meaningless.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1397
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 07:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't think James was in any way referring to you, Larry. But those to whom he is referring ignore threads like this one anyway, or at least any attempt to ask them to modify their behaviour.


A Shéamuis Mhic Aonghusa, Bíodh misneach agat. Do your damndest to write in Irish and never mind the perpetual carpers! We have outlived others of their ilk, and some have remained and become (slightly better) citizens.

The weakness of this medium is that all tone of voice and body language is missing, so that often offence is taken where none is intended.

BTW: I would reply "Tá" to "an bhfuil an teach dearg?" but "Is ea" to "An teach dearg atá ann?" (Is it a red house)

bí (bheith) Ceisteach an bhfuil:
"An bhfuil" is the present interrogative (the one you ask questions with) of bí - to be.

"an", along with its 714 other purposes, is the present interrogative of the copula "is"
- an [aimsir láithreach, cheisteach dhearfach][aimsir láithreach, foirm cheisteach dhearfach spleách]

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 535
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 08:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Try not to make such word-for-word translations.

The house is red.
Tá dath dearg ar an teach.

Is the house red?
An bhfuil dath dearg ar an teach?

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Nash
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Posted From: 83.71.14.255
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jax,
are you mental?

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Diarmo
Member
Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 114
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I wonder what your students would make of the debates held in this discussion group Calleen?! ;)

Do they come here to learn at all?

D

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Cailindoll
Member
Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 76
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

No, they're plugging along with Liam and Barbara from the www.beo.ie archives at the moment -- I keep telling them the story will eventually get juicy. Actually there's one that had to go back to Hawaii, poor thing and she's looking in here, internet texting us and sending us post cards in Irish but wishing she were back. If that was havaíís up above there, or if anyone knows of an Irish language study group in Havaíí it would make her day. She's trying to distance learn so that she'll be allowed to come back to Dublin! Think about the tandem Romanis though, really! We had two from France, the other student from Ukraine, Romania, and Reunion last night. They find the whole scene quite amusing. They have been taught to take corrections with a smile, ever since they were corrected for saying 'ba mhaith liom píog sícin' instead of 'píog circeoil' by some well-intentioned grammarian.
Colleen

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 204
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 01:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And my point has been made quite nicely by Aonghus, Larry and Fear na mBrog....all three made corrections to what is my admittedly poor grasp of Irish and not one was demeaning. Not one took adavantage of my errors to flaunt their superior grasp of the language.

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Jax
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.250
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 04:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

yes I am. cukoo. cukoo.



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