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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (May-June) » Archive through May 20, 2005 » Please translate this Linguist-English sentence « Previous Next »

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 63
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 02:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The realization of the slender consonants varies somewhat from dialect to dialect; for example [t´] is an affricate [tʃ] in Ulster, a palatalized [tj] in Connacht, and an apical postalveolar [t] in Munster.

A Chairde:

I hope I am not becoming a nuisance, but I am a humble nuisance and history teacher and not a linguist.

Can someone please translate the sentence above into some semblance of American English?

What is the difference between an affricate and a fricative?

What is an apical postalveolar "T"?

I believe I know what a palatalized Tj is, but who knows? Up until reading this sentence, and based on very kind assistance from folks on this Forum and friends from Donegal, I thought the slender T was pronounced SOMETHING LIKE "J" or "Tj" in Ulster and North Mayo dialects, like a "CH" in Connaught, and like the "T" in the English "Tear" in Munster. In Scots Gaelic I understand the slender T' is something like "Tch" and in Manx "Ch."



Also, can some kind soul please translate what "tʃ" means and at least approximate its sound?

Yes, I am a leath-dhuine, or what we called a "loogin" in Brooklyn... But can someone suffer this loogin gladly and please translate the sentence above into a history teacher's basic American English?

I promise a lunch or dinner to anyone who comes out to San Francisco as a reward -- as well as a citation in my leabhar beag on a history teachers take on the History and Sanas of American Slang.

Go raibh maith agat,

Dan Cassidy

DC

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 324
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 02:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I would look up each of the terms here
http://www.rhymezone.com
just be sure to change it from find:rhyme to find:definition

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 64
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 03:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks, Antaine. I had read definitions of affricate but did not understand how it would apply to slender "T." The definition of the site you sent was helpful since it supplied examples.

Go raibh maith agat.

Now I need to do a search for the symbol [tʃ]which also has me puzzled.
dc

DC

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max
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 04:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

(sorry, the IPA doesn't on my computer... "S" is what i'll write when i mean the sort of elongated S that puzzles you)

to produce a consonant, you can:

1/block the air and then release it = occlusive (like [t] in ten)
2/produce a friction by letting the air pass through a small hole = fricative (like [S] in shy)
3/ block the air and release it with producing a friction = affricate (like [tS] in chair)


[tj] is a palatalized occlusive: it means you block the air as normal for [t] while putting the middle of the tongue near the palate (like you would do with [j] in yes) (it produces a sort of "y" sound with the "t")

apical means: with the tip of the tongue (this is always what happens when pronouncing [t] or [d] or [s], whether they are palatalized, fricative, affricate, or whatever)

alveolar means: at the level of the root of the teeth. this is where you have to put the tip of the tongue when it's involved.
postalveolar is right before this region.


for the record: [t] in english is alveolar, while in french it's dental

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max
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

i forgot:

"slender t" is not a sound, it's a concept that you oppose to "broad".

slender means the pronunciation of the consonant has been influenced by a "y" sound
broad means the pronunciation of the consonant has been influenced by a "w" sound

slender t may be pronounced differently according to the different dialects, the important thing is that in a particular dialect it is opposed to broad t.

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 65
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

max:


thank you so much. the offer for a "lo/in-fheis" is a serious one

interesting that many of the words for "heat" in irish hold natural "friction" and heat within them. fricative teas.


pax

dc

DC

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Max
Member
Username: Max

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

dancas,

what is "lo/in-fheis"?


i think it's a little weird to say that a word that means something that makes no sound "sounds" like its meaning.
phonetical evolution and phonology are regardless of the meaning of the words.

max

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 293
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 07:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>broad means the pronunciation of the consonant has been influenced by a "w" sound

No, broad means the pronounciation of the consonant has been influenced by an "a" or "o" sound. And by a "u" sound when the consonant is bilabial.

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Max
Member
Username: Max

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 07:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

by "w" I meant "back"

a, o and u are back vowels whereas e and i are front vowels.

in phonetic terms,
slender means palatalized
braod means velarized

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 298
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Broad b, f, m, p, ph are not velarized, they're bilabialized. The other consonants are velarized. That's why Irish linguists use "broad" and "slender": they can put "bilabialized" and "velarized" in the same category, opposed to "palatalized". Actually, slender bilabial consonants aren't always palatalized: they are when -eo- or -iú- follow them, otherwise they aren't, you just pronounce them with the corners (?) of your lips stretched backwards (en plus clair, les commissures des lèvres st tirées vers l'arrière qd tu prononces ces consonnes et les voyelles suivantes, comme si l'on souriait: ca fait résonner un peu différemment).

(Message edited by Lughaidh on May 07, 2005)

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Max
Member
Username: Max

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 08:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

b, f, m, p, ph are always bilabialized, whether they are slender or broad, because they are bilabial consonants (or more exactly labio-dental for [f]).

my point is:

slender is a phonological (=abstract) category opposed to broad.
within those categories, the strick phonetic (=concrete) realization of each consonant may vary, as long as the two pronounciations of a slender consonant vs its broad counterpart don't overlap. (thence the dialectal variations)

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 66
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"It is interesting that many of the words for "heat" in Irish hold natural "friction" and heat within them. Fricative teas."



"I think it's a little weird to say that a word that means something that makes no sound "sounds" like its meaning. phonetical evolution and phonology are regardless of the meaning of the words."

Max a chara: First I am not a linguist or I would not ask dumb leath-dhuine (loogin) questions like "please define an affricate."

And like you I do not speak irish, though I can read it and speak it a bit and have a fairly large Irish vocabulary that was part of the American dialect I was born with.

So my uneducated observation on affricates and fricatives may seem "Weird" or mysterious, however, in very kindly explaining the affricate to me in very simple terms you wrote:

3/ block the air and release it with producing a friction = affricate (like [tS] in chair)


Physics tells us that "friction" produces "heat." The slender "t" of teas (heat) is an affricate in Ulster Dialect and the friction of the released air of teas then produces teas (heat.) It may be merely a coincidence. But it is a "teasaí" (hot) coincidence precisely because of the friction of the affricate. But how do we know it is coincidence?

The Irish word Teas is in a constant state of heat both in its meaning and the natural physical law embodied in its pronunciation.

On the page the heat is lost unless you know that teas means "heat." But that also involves the natural heat (teas) of consciousness.

Again that may be "hot air" to you, but that is my point. The friction makes the air of the affricate hot.

Teas is a naturally teasaí word.

Or a word that is full of hot air.

Teas in Irish-American vernacular English can sometimes mean "a lotta'(lot of) hot air."

As in "Don't gimme (give me) any of dat ol' (old) teas." (Heat, passion, excitement, etc.)

It is wierd.

+

Lóin-fheis is "a feast of meat." (Hot or cold) Lóin-fheis án is a noble feast of meat. That's according to Fr. Dineen.

It is a meal for those who are uí bhfolaíocht án (descended from noble blood or lineage) or hi'falutin'.

I believe the Irish language -like all language -- contains what we call "the old teas:" The ancient heat and hot air of creation. The teas (heat, passion, excitement, anger, and pain) of consciousness.

You believe that statement is hot air, which still has heat and is sometimes called "teas" or "the old jazz" in American Irish vernacular.

So either way it is still a lot of teas. Or a lotta hot air.

Go raibh maith agat

Dan

DC

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Max
Member
Username: Max

Post Number: 15
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 08:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

dan,


>>The Irish word Teas is in a constant state of heat both in its meaning and the natural physical law embodied in its pronunciation.

indeed, this is very nicely put !!

>>But how do we know it is coincidence?

because:
>>phonetical evolution (1) and phonology (2) are regardless of the meaning the words.

for instance:
(1) the French word "chaud" (hot) is said [So], with a fricative, so it produces heat too. but it comes from the latin word "calidus" which does not. and you can find examples that work the other way round.

(2) not all words refering to heat are pronounced with a fricative or affricate ; and not all words containing a fricative or affricate refer to heat.

what you say about "teas" and heat could be termed : "re-motivation"

motivated means that there is a correlation between what is meant and its form, like onomatopoeias that imitate sounds (twit-twit ; splash). in english, the onomatopoeias can become verbs, so that you end up with certain words in the language that are more or less motivated. since the speakers know it (or feel it) they sometimes have the tendency to find motivation where there is none.

this "playing with the sounds and the meaning" could be termed : poetry.
and it is indeed a wonderful thing. like explaining the difference between glinter, glisten, glow, shine, by the way they are pronounced. but it is not explaining the language, it's playing with it.

so, with the sharp morning light glistening its way across the wet foliage of the trees,
I conclude this post

max

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 67
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

max a chara:

go raibh maith agat.

Words and language like poetry and song are born in the tine (fire) of consciousness. The inner tine caor (lightning, raging fire) of the brain's synapses. The teas of the double (triple?) helix.

You will never be able to totally explain language with language. You can only theorize and guess. There is no unified theory. The quantum defies quantification.

Some words are born out of natural onomatopoeia in the same way some literate languages were born out of primeval pictographs.

Fizzle (fe/ theas uile) fizzles forever. It is the silent affricate of teas aspirating heat perpetually.

Of course, I am kidding and covered in wet foliage.

Pax

dc

DC



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