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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (May-June) » Archive through May 20, 2005 » The double relative « Previous Next »

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

At this point, I'd rather start other threads to ask certain specific questions...

Mícheál Ó Siadhail, in "Learning Irish", talks about bouble relatives.

he gives these examples:

"Feicim an fear a shílim atá sásta."
"An bhfuil an leabhar ar an mbord a sílim a bhfuil sé air?"

saying that this happens when a clause introduced by "go/nach" is transformed into a relative clause.
("Sílim go bhfuil sé sásta." / "Sílim go bhfuil sé air.")

I wonder: is it always the case?
Can you have:

"Feicim an fear a sílim a bhfuil a mhac sásta."
"Feicim an fear atá aiféal orm atá anseo."
"Feicim an fear a bhfuil aiféal orm a bhfuil a mhac anseo."

?

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 511
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

"Feicim an fear a sílim a bhfuil a mhac sásta."



I'd say:

Feicim an fear a silím go bhfuil a mhac sásta.


quote:

"Feicim an fear atá aiféal orm atá anseo."



I'd say:

Feicim an fear anseo a bhfuil aiféala orm dó.



quote:

"Feicim an fear a bhfuil aiféal orm a bhfuil a mhac anseo."




Are you trying to say:

I see the man for whom I have remorse and whose son is here.

Fecim an fear a bhfuil aiféala orm dó agus a bhfuil a mhac anseo.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1338
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 07:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't think it cascades:

Feicim an fear (a shílim (go bhfuil a mhac sásta.))"
"Feicim an fear (atá aiféal orm (é bheith anseo.))"
"Feicim an fear (a bhfuil aiféal orm (go bhfuil a mhac anseo.))"

The brackets "(" are my attempt to parse the sentence. (The influence of 15 years as a programmer...)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1339
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 07:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Although for the first "Feicim an fear a shílim a mhac a bheith sásta" feels more natural.

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus,

if it don't cascade, how can you explain Mícheál Ó Siadhail's sentences:
"Feicim an fear a shílim atá sásta."
"An bhfuil an leabhar ar an mbord a sílim a bhfuil sé air?"

?

ps: the other sentences I wrote are supposed to mean:
"I see the man whose son I think is content"
"I see the man who I regret is here"
"I see the man whose son I regret is here"

French:
"Je vois l'homme dont je pense que le fils est content"
"Je vois l'homme dont je regrette qu'il soit là"
"Je vois l'homme dont je regrette que le fils soit là"

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Seosamh Mac Muirí
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Posted From: 193.1.100.104
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Feicim an fear a shílim atá sásta."
"An bhfuil an leabhar ar an mbord a sílim a bhfuil sé air?"

Coibhneas áite an darna ceann. Sin a bhfuil ann.

Tá an ghné seo cíortha cheana: http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/21/13323.html


Srónaíl le coibhneas an ama a Pheadair mar a léirigh tú as obair na beirte, Mhac an Fhailigh agus Thurneysen. Léiríonn an sliocht sin as Thurneysen go bhfuil ársaíocht ag baint leis an dá nós:

Nasalization of the relative forms of simple verbs, except the copula, is usual (though not quite consistently shown) in the Würzburg Glosses; in later sources it is found more regularly. Examples: _in tain m-bís_ 'when he is' (beside _in tain bíis_ where, however, the m may have been dropped between n and b)...
...

Chuaigh muintir an Spidéil ar an nós céanna le muintir Dhú Chaocháin leis an séimhiú agus foirm neamhspleách an bhriathair (gan foirceann 's' an choibhnis chomh maith), ach d'fhan an mhuintir eile siar Chonamara agus an tUltach leis an úrú.

An tan a bhí earrach an fheannta thuas, ní raibh aon bheithidheach lé fagháil lé a olcas tháinig an sneachta is an sioc.

Gabhaim féin leis an úrú, an tsrónaíl, le coibhneas an ama (agus le coibhneas áite):

An tan a raibh earrach an fheannta thuas, > A. Láith.
An tan a mbeidh earrach an fheannta thuas/
an t-am a mbeidh ... .



>Srónaíl le coibhneas an ama a Pheadair<

Ó-ó-ó-ó...

Bhoil, feiceamaist céard fhaghanns muid in "Caint Ros Muc":

[an] t-am a raibh
ón t-am a raibh
nuair a bhí
nuair a bhíodar
nuair a bhíodh
nuair a bheadh
nuair a tháinig
nuair a chuaigh
nuair a d'úirt
nuair a chonaic
uair a bith a dteastóidh
uair a bith a n-iarrfaidh

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peadar Ó Gríofa


Sea, san áit a mbíonn urú leis an gcoibhneas indíreach ama ag dream in áit amháin, Conamara agus in Ultaibh:

[an] t-am a raibh
ón am a raibh
uair a' bith a dteastóidh
uair a' bith a n-iarrfaidh

is ag séimhiú a bheas dream in áit eile, An Spidéal agus Iorras. (Níl de Bháldraithe lem' ais ach is nós suntasach é ag cainteoirí maithe an Spidéil).
An rud is ionadh liom, na difríochtaí seo ó cheantar go chéile a mheasfaí gur le nuaíocht a tharla chugainn iad ach a mbíonn ársaíocht bhreá ag baint leo, mar a dheimhnigh Thurneysen dúinn sa chás seo.
Tá a fhios agam gur luadh a leithéid seo liom cheana, na blianta siar agus sinn i mbun Gluaiseanna Strachan (uimh. 19: in tan mberes claind, is fáilid íar sin), ach Seán Bán Breathnach agus cainteoirí maithe an Spidéil, braithfidh roinnt ó thuaidh - agus siar Conamara - as alt iad ina gcuid cainte le hais mar a déarfaidís féin é. An dá thaobh ceart agus breis is míle bliain de chleachtadh acu araon.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 512
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

"I see the man whose son I think is content"



Feicim an fear a gceapaim go bhfuil a mhac sásta.

quote:

"I see the man who I regret is here"



As far as I'm aware, the use of "aiféala" in translating this is wrong.

I believe the phrase "is oth liom" is more fitting.

Feicim an fear gurb oth liom go bhfuil sé i láthair.


quote:

"I see the man whose son I regret is here"



Feicim an fear gurb oth liom go bhfuil a mhac i láthair.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1341
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

By the way, max, Learning Irish is specific to the dialect of Cois Fharraige in Co Galway.

Other dialects may deal with these questions differently.

I'm a little surprised, that if you plan to do a PhD on Irish, you have not spent time learning Irish in the Gaeltacht. I would have thought it to be essential to your research to be familiar with all the dialects as well as standrad Irish. It's hard to see how you will acheive that from France.

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

thanx Fear_na_mbróg ,

i noticed that your relative clauses were indirect. (where it's direct when it's simply "feicim an fear is oth liom" or "feicim an fear is maith liom").

i feel a bit like i'm in the fog right now... hopefully not for too long...


Aonghus,

i think of going to ireland indeed. i can't right now but i will.
still, i can do a lot of research in france because i deal with syntax (where there are only a limited number of different structures). if i were dealing with semantics, i'd have to be fluent.

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

let's see (tell me if i'm wrong):

"i regret this man" = "is oth liom an fear seo"
"i regret that this man is here" = "is oth liom go bhfuil an fear seo anseo"

"the man whom i regret" = "an fear is oth liom"
"the man who i regret is here" = "an fear gurb oth liom go bhfuil sé anseo"
couldn't you have: "an fear arb oth liom go bhfuil sé anseo" ?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1344
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

C'est pas possible de regretter un homme! On ne peut regretter que des faits.

Je ne comprends ce que tu veut dire. Or are they just fragments?

"the man who i regret is here" = "an fear gurb oth liom go bhfuil sé anseo"

couldn't you have: "an fear arb oth liom go bhfuil sé anseo" ? Oui.

Mais je dirai

An fear arbh oth liom é bheith anseo.

(Message edited by aonghus on May 05, 2005)

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 05:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

about "regretter"

i got mixed up...:
in french you can say "je regrette que cet homme soit là" as well as "je regrette cet homme". but now i think of it, the verb has not the same meaning exactly...

i was trying to find a word that would semantically fit in the 2 structures.
(the problem with syntax is to construct examples that are syntactically correct and don't feel semantically odd... i encounter this problem in french as well...)

could it work with "fearr" ?:

"is fearr liom an fear seo"
"is é an fear is fearr liom"

"is fearr liom nach dteagann an fear seo anseo"
(i prefer that this man doesn't come)

"is é an fear arb fhearr liom nach dteagann sé anseo"
(this is the man who i prefer he doesn't come"

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1346
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 05:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

is fearr liom an fear seo
is eisean an fear is fearr liom
B'fhearr (Ba + fhearr) liom nach dtiocfadh an fear anseo
is eisean an fear arbh fhearr liom nach dtiocfadh sé anseo

Wait for a second opinion. (Ou est Lughaidh quand on a besoin de lui?). When I try to think about correct grammar I make (even) more mistakes.

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

now,

how would you say:

"you who are a priest (tell her she shoudn't do that)"
"you who are the priest (tell her she shoudn't do that)"

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1355
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 04:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tusa, arb sagart thú, (abair lei nár cheart di sin a dhéanamh)
Tusa, arb an sagart thú, (abair lei nár cheart di sin a dhéanamh)

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 06:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

thanx Aonghus.

if I wanna say: "milk is good", is it "is maith bainne" ?

and "the milk that is good" : "an bainne is maith"?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1358
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Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 06:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá bainne go maith
An bainne mhaith would be more natural than
an bainne atá go maith

Also, I'm not sure about your use of "good" here.

Le lait est bon (peut lait etre mauvais? Comment?)
Le bon lait
Le lait qui est bon

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 518
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 06:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Keep in mind that Irish is very fond of the definite article.

Germany = An Ghearmáin

I wouldn't be surprised if "Milk is good" would be translated literally as "The milk is good"; maybe something like:

Is maith an bainne

That's how I'd express it in the general sense (not referring to a particular sample of milk). But then if I was in some-one's house and they handed me a glass of milk and I took a sup and it was nice, and I wanted to express "The milk is good", I'd say:

Tá an bainne go maith

or maybe:

Is maith an bainne é seo

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 519
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Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 06:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Aonghuis,

Cad í an chaoi is fearr chun "should" a rá? Tá a fhios agam gur féidir an focal "ceart" a úsáid, ach nílim cinnte cén aimsir is fearr a úsáid:

Mar shampla:
She should go home and get her bag.

An ndéarfá é sin mar:

a) Is ceart di dul abhaile 's a mála a fháil



b) Ba cheart di dul abhaile 's a mála fháil

?

"should" = "is ceart" nó "ba cheart" ?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1359
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Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 07:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is ceart "Ba cheart" a usáid.

Modh conníollach - níl tú cinnte go rachfaidh sí, níl ann ach do thuairim gur cheart di. (should versus shall). Má deir tú "is ceart" níl ceist ar bith ann faoi.

Maidir leis an alt, ní aontíom leat. An Ghéarmáin - toisc nach bhfuil ann (anois) ach an taon ghéarmáin amháin.

Ach le rud teibí cosúil le bainne, níl gá le alt, dar liom. Dar liom go bhfuil rud éigin in easnamh san abairt "is maith an bainne"

Bheadh "is maith an bainne a bhíonn ag premier" ceart, mar shampla.

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Le lait est bon. (it's used when refering to a particular situation: "le lait est bon dans ce restaurant" = in this restaurant the milk that is served is good ; "oui, le lait est bon" = you asked me to taste the milk that is in the frige to see if it's still good, and I tell you it is)

milk is good (for your health) = le lait c'est bon pour ta santé (the milk it's good for your health)

Le bon lait (s'achète à la ferme) = if you want good milk, you'll have to buy it from a farm (the good milk is bought at the farm)

Le lait qui est bon (s'achète à la ferme) = same as above

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1364
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Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

le lait est bon dans ce restaurant

je dirai
Tá an bainne go maith sa phroinnteach seo
mais
Tá bainne maith ar fáil sa phroinnteach seo
serait plus naturelle (si on peut dir ca en francais)

le lait c'est bon pour ta santé

Tá bainne go maith do'd shláinte

meilleur
Ól bainne ar mhaithe le do shláinte
Bu lait pout ta santé


Le bon lait (s'achète à la ferme)
Tá an bainne mhaith le ceannach ag an bhfeirm

Attendez a Lughaidh ou autre experte grammatique. Je suis parleur de naissance, mais du cité, pas du Gaeltacht. Allors, comme je ne écrit plus (often) en Irlandais, il y a des fauts dans ma grammatique. (Chose que Lughaidh me souvent dit )

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I was trying to find an adjective that could work in both sentences:
/copula/+/adjective/+/noun/
/copula/+/adjective/+/prepositional pronoun/+/noun/


This is what I find in "Learning Irish":

- "With a certain few adjectives the copula is normally used, e.g. Is ionann iad (They are the same)"

- "exclamatory use: Is deas í do léine! (you shirt is nice!)"

- "emphatic word order: Is deas an duine é (he is a *nice* person)"

- "idiomatic use of the copula and le : Is maith le Cáit bainne (Cáit likes milk)

I don't really understand the difference between "exclamatory" and "emphatic"
could you have:

"is deas é an duine!" (the man is nice!)

?

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 1367
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

I don't really understand the difference between "exclamatory" and "emphatic"



It's a nuanced difference.

quote:

could you have:

"is deas é an duine!" (the man is nice!)



Yes. But I'd be hard pressed to say woithout context or tone of voice to say whether that is emphatic or exclamatory.

NB duine = personne, pas homme (fear)

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

if "ionann" is normally used with the copula,

can you have for "their books are the same":

"is ionann iad a leabhartha"

?

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iad
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

and maybe emphatically:

"their books are *the same*"

"is ionann a leabhartha iad"

?

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

oops, i signed "iad"

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 529
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Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The plural of "leabhar" is "leabhair".

Their books are the same = Is ionann a leabhair.

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max
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Posted From: 82.226.74.188
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 04:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

the form "leabhartha" is what I have in Mícheál Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish"...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1369
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Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Which, as I said before, focusses on one sub dialect, and therefore deviates from the standard.

However, "ionann" means identical.

I'd say "Tá na leabhair chéanna acu"

I'm having trouble following you on this because I find the examples contrived and unnatural.

I think I'll leave the field to the grammarians...

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Max
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Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

the unnaturalness is due to the fact that the examples are deprived of context. (sorry for that)


I wasn't trying to get the exact translation of "their books are the same", I was trying to find an example in Irish in which the adjective won't work with "tá" (like: "tá mé sásta"), but with the copula (like: "is ionann iad").

1/ would you accept "is ionann iad" (they are identical), or say it's only Cois Fhairrge Irish?

2/ if you accept, would you say that "the books are identical" is: (1)"is ionann iad na leabhair", (2)"is ionann na leabhair iad" or (3)"is ionann na leabhair" ?

if you do not like the word "leabhair", you can change it to make it sound more natural.

#2 looks like the sentence "is mór an trua é" (it is a great pity) (Ó Siadhail).
- Is it only Cois Fhairrge Irish ?
- If no, could #2 be emphasized too ?
- Still if no, is there any explanation why the pronoun is "é" whereas "trua" is feminine ?

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Max
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Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 07:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

now i'm trying to translate this. tell me if i'm wrong...

"his son is priest" = "is sagart é a mhac"
"his son is the priest" = "is é a mhac an sagart"

"the man whose son is priest" = "an fear ar sagart a mhac"
"the man whose son is the priest" = "an fear arb é a mhac an sagart"

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Lughaidh
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Post Number: 289
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>is fearr liom an fear seo (correct)
>is eisean an fear is fearr liom (correct)
>B'fhearr (Ba + fhearr) liom nach dtiocfadh an fear anseo (correct)
>is eisean an fear arbh fhearr liom nach dtiocfadh sé anseo (correct)


>"you who are a priest (tell her she shoudn't do that)"
>"you who are the priest (tell her she shoudn't do that)"

A thusa atá i do shagart (abair léi nár chóir di seo a dhéanamh)

A thusa ar tú an sagart (?) (abair léi...)


>Tusa, arb sagart thú, (abair lei nár cheart di sin a dhéanamh)

No because "arb" is only used before vowels (as well as "arbh", "gurb", "gurbh")

>Tusa, arb an sagart thú, (abair lei nár cheart di sin a dhéanamh)

Wrong word order: in copula sentences, when your predicate is definite and when your subject is mé, tú, muid, sibh, you put these before the predicate

is tú an sagart > a thusa ar tú an sagart.




>if I wanna say: "milk is good", is it "is maith bainne" ?

is maith an rud bainne. (what would be the sentence with tá? i don’t manage to see whether u need the article before bainne or not... i’m between English influence and french influence...)


>and "the milk that is good" : "an bainne is maith"?

An bainne atá go maith.



>Tá bainne go maith (sounds odd to me)
>An bainne mhaith would be more natural than (bainne is masculine so anyway it is "n bainne maith")


>Also, I'm not sure about your use of "good" here.

>Le lait est bon (peut lait etre mauvais? Comment?)

S’il est pas frais :-D

>Le bon lait
>Le lait qui est bon


>"his son is priest" = "is sagart é a mhac"

Why not "is sagart a mhac" ? I think both are correct, the form with é would be Connemara.

>"his son is the priest" = "is é a mhac an sagart" (correct)

>"the man whose son is priest" = "an fear ar sagart a mhac" (correct)

>"the man whose son is the priest" = "an fear arb é a mhac an sagart" (correct)

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh, tu me sauves la vie !!

tu pourrais regarder mon message avec "is ionann iad" juste au-dessus ?

I'm looking for copula sentences where the predicate is an adjective (but not with a prepositional pronoun like "is maith liom bainne") to transform them into relative clauses.

something simple like :

/copula/ /adjective=predicate/ /indefinite noun=subject/
/copula/ /adjective=predicate/ /definite noun=subject/

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1373
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 07:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Max

I don't pretend to be an authority on dialects. I just know the Ó Siadhail book because it has been translated into German, and my wife tried to use it to learn Irish. (She gave up because the vocabulary was too remote from ordinary urban life with children...)



>Le lait est bon (peut lait etre mauvais? Comment?)

S’il est pas frais :-D

There is a problem of scope there between milk in general and some milk in particular!



>>"his son is priest" = "is sagart é a mhac"

>>Why not "is sagart a mhac" ? I think both are correct, the form with é would be Connemara.

The form with "é" adds emphasis. His son is a priest, and not any other profession... (Strange example, but...)




Max, as I said, the grammar terms have lost me. I think Lughaidh will be of more use to you.

Are you in touch with the Irish departments of the universities here? Surely they would be a more reliable source?

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Max
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Post Number: 6
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Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 08:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus,

sorry to use obfuscating words... I tried not to use them and just ask for translations in which I thought I would find what I'm looking for. But it doesn't always work...

I'm not in touch with the Irish departments. Do you have any idea how I could do it?


As for Dialects:
the different linguistic levels of dialects do not drift away form one another at the same pace.
pronounciation and vocabulary are the quickest to evolve.
syntax is much much slower.
But since the deeper levels are "hidden" by the surface levels, the dialects can look very different from one another.
But I read that some-one speaking a certain dialect could, with a little practice, understand the others... is it true?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1374
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 02:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

But I read that some-one speaking a certain dialect could, with a little practice, understand the others... is it true?

Yes.

quote:

I'm not in touch with the Irish departments. Do you have any idea how I could do it?



http://www.ucd.ie
http://www.tcd.ie
http://www.nuigalway.ie


etc....

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1375
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And the problem with translation is that my instinct is to write something more natural in Irish, which of course defeats your purpose...

Universities contd:

http://www.ucc.ie
http://www.ul.ie
http://www.qub.ac.uk/
http://www.ulster.ac.uk/campus/coleraine/
http://www.dcu.ie

All of them will have pages for the Irish departments.

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Paul
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Posted From: 67.101.197.148
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Max, a chara,

Here's a link re Conradh na Gaeilge's two weeklong
courses this summer in the Donegal Gaeltacht:

http://www.gael-linn.ie/learnIrish/AdultCourses.aspx?ProductID=5GD1&lang=En&area Cat=COR0052&cLoc=2

Ádh mór,
Paul

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Paul
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Posted From: 67.101.197.148
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

...and one for the National University of Ireland/Galway's monthlong course in the Connemara Gaeltacht:

http://www.nuigalway.ie/prospective_students/international_summer_school/irish_l anguage.html

Le meas, Paul

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 296
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>Lughaidh, tu me sauves la vie !!

Tant mieux si je peux t’aider, j’en suis content :)

>tu pourrais regarder mon message avec "is ionann iad" juste au-dessus ?

>the unnaturalness is due to the fact that the examples are deprived of context. (sorry for that)

>I wasn't trying to get the exact translation of "their books are the same", I was trying to find an example in Irish in which the adjective won't work with "tá" (like: "tá mé sásta"), but with the copula (like: "is ionann iad").

Ok. Mais en fait, les cas où tu utilises un adjective comme prédicat avec "is", sont plut^ot littéraires, ou ce sont des expressions figées généralement. Je ne pense pas que les gens utilisent spontanément "is" pour dire que qch est comme ci ou comme ca. On utilise plutôt tá.

>1/ would you accept "is ionann iad" (they are identical), or say it's only Cois Fhairrge Irish?

Oh, ca doit exister partout à mon avis.

>2/ if you accept, would you say that "the books are identical" is: (1)"is ionann iad na leabhair", (2)"is ionann na leabhair iad" or (3)"is ionann na leabhair" ?

Je te conseille de lire l'article sur "ionann" dans le dico de O Dónaill. Cela dit, je peux pas te répondre de facon certaine, à part sur ceci:
"is ionann na leabhair iad" se dit, mais la structure est différente. En fait, quand tu dis "c'est un homme bon", par exemple, on dira généralt en irlandais "is maith an fear é", plus souvent que "is fear maith é". Je trouve cette structure intéressante, c'est "est bon l'homme lui". Avec ionann, dans la phrase ci-dessus c'est la mm chose: "sont semblables les livres eux" (pour: "ce sont des livres semblables"). Par contre, on pourrait pas dire "is leabhair ionanna iad", parce qu'ionann ne peut être que prédicat, pas épithète (comment dit-on épithète en grammaire non-scolaire?), et ne s'utilise qu'avec "is".
Je pense que "is ionann na leabhair" est correct, mais j'en suis pas sûr. Dans ce cas, il y a une nuance de sens avec l'autre phrase: ici ca signifie "les livres sont semblables".

>if you do not like the word "leabhair", you can change it to make it sound more natural.

>#2 looks like the sentence "is mór an trua é" (it is a great pity) (Ó Siadhail).
>- Is it only Cois Fhairrge Irish ?

Non, ca s'utilise partout. Parfois on dit seult "mór a’ trua", mais c'est une forme raccourcie de la précédente.

>- If no, could #2 be emphasized too ?

Comment ca? Non je vois pas comment on pourrait mettre de l'emphase sur ca, c'est déjà emphatique.

>- Still if no, is there any explanation why the pronoun is "é" whereas "trua" is feminine ?

Ben, premièrement, c'est une expression figée (ce genre de bizarrerie arrive souvent dans les expressions figées). On peut comprendre que ca signifie "cela est un grand dommage", avec "é" qui a une valeur "neutre".

>I'm looking for copula sentences where the predicate is >an adjective (but not with a prepositional pronoun >like "is maith liom bainne") to transform them into >relative clauses.

>something simple like :

>/copula/ /adjective=predicate/ /indefinite noun=subject/
>/copula/ /adjective=predicate/ /definite noun=subject/


Is fíor sin (c'est un peu une expression figée qd même) = c'est vrai
Ba deas an radharc (
Avec un sujet indéfini, je vois pas trop d'exemples... sauf peut-être avec des adjectifs au comparatif:
is fearr fíon ná uisce (est meilleur vin qu'eau) - le vin c'est meilleur que l'eau.

Je verrais pas de phrase avec sujet indefini et prédicat adjectival, d'ailleurs même en francais "un homme est bon" etc, ca sonne bizarre (ou pê ai-je mal choisi mon exemple...)


>But since the deeper levels are "hidden" by the surface >levels, the dialects can look very different from one >another.

On sent le générativiste :-)

>But I read that some-one speaking a certain dialect could, with a little practice, understand the others... is it true?

Oui, c'est vrai. D'ailleurs, de plus en plus les locuteurs natifs comprennent les autres dialectes, car en écoutant Raidió na Gaeltachta, ils entendent tous les dialectes, et avec l'habitude ils comprennent tout.


Max, je te conseille un bouquin consacré à la syntaxe d'un dialecte, celui de Gaoth Dobhair (le mien, soi dit en passant):
O MUIRI, D., Comhréir Ghaeilge Ghaoth Dobhair, Coiscéim, Dublin, 1982, que tu peux trouver sur www.litriocht.com

Tu trouveras sans doute pas mal de réponses à tes questions, mais il faut préciser que certaines des structures que tu y trouveras st surtout utilisées dans le Donegal.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh wrote:

Ok. Mais en fait, les cas où tu utilises un adjective comme prédicat avec "is", sont plut^ot littéraires, ou ce sont des expressions figées généralement. Je ne pense pas que les gens utilisent spontanément "is" pour dire que qch est comme ci ou comme ca. On utilise plutôt tá.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There is occasionally some confusion about whether the predicates used with "is" are functioning as nouns or as adjectives. Take "trua", for example. In FGB (= Ó Dónaill) there are two entries. Under "trua 1", the noun entry, we find "is mór an trua an duine bocht" and "is beag an trua é". The noun status of "trua" here is unambiguous. But under "trua 2", the adjective entry, we have "Is trua sin!" The status of "trua" here is really grammatically ambiguous from a formal standpoint. It could be an adjective, it could be a noun.

In many (most?) cases ("Is cinnte sin", for example) the predicate is unambiguously an adjective. But in other cases ("Is leor sin") it seems to be an adjective, but one of very limited scope. According to FGB, "fleá leor" (= ample feast) is correct literary usage, but it sounds odd nonetheless, and I don't think any speaker of Modern Irish would generate sentences such as:

*Tá an bia anseo leor. = The food here is ample/sufficient.
*Tá bia leor againn. = We have ample food.

FGB treats the "leor" in "Is leor..." as an adjective, but given the facts of usage, it's easy for a speaker of Irish to categorize it as a predicate noun.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dála an scéil, nuair a deir FGB go bhfuil focal "Lit(erary)", is é litríocht na Nua-Ghaeilge Clasaicí atá i gceist acu, ní úrscéalta, gearrscéalta, 7c. a scríobhadh ó Athbheochan na Gaeilge i leith. Is ionann "lit." agus "ársa" nó seanfhaiseanta den chuid is mó.

Les mots qui sont désiginés par "Lit." dans le dico sont pour la plupart des mots qui n'ont plus cours, ou qui figurent dans des tournures caduques.



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