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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:30 am: |
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At this point, I'd rather start other threads to ask certain specific questions... Mícheál Ó Siadhail, in "Learning Irish", talks about bouble relatives. he gives these examples: "Feicim an fear a shílim atá sásta." "An bhfuil an leabhar ar an mbord a sílim a bhfuil sé air?" saying that this happens when a clause introduced by "go/nach" is transformed into a relative clause. ("Sílim go bhfuil sé sásta." / "Sílim go bhfuil sé air.") I wonder: is it always the case? Can you have: "Feicim an fear a sílim a bhfuil a mhac sásta." "Feicim an fear atá aiféal orm atá anseo." "Feicim an fear a bhfuil aiféal orm a bhfuil a mhac anseo." ? |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 511 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:54 am: |
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quote:"Feicim an fear a sílim a bhfuil a mhac sásta." I'd say: Feicim an fear a silím go bhfuil a mhac sásta. quote:"Feicim an fear atá aiféal orm atá anseo." I'd say: Feicim an fear anseo a bhfuil aiféala orm dó. quote:"Feicim an fear a bhfuil aiféal orm a bhfuil a mhac anseo." Are you trying to say: I see the man for whom I have remorse and whose son is here. Fecim an fear a bhfuil aiféala orm dó agus a bhfuil a mhac anseo. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1338 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 07:52 am: |
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I don't think it cascades: Feicim an fear (a shílim (go bhfuil a mhac sásta.))" "Feicim an fear (atá aiféal orm (é bheith anseo.))" "Feicim an fear (a bhfuil aiféal orm (go bhfuil a mhac anseo.))" The brackets "(" are my attempt to parse the sentence. (The influence of 15 years as a programmer...) |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1339 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 07:53 am: |
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Although for the first "Feicim an fear a shílim a mhac a bheith sásta" feels more natural. |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 08:01 am: |
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Aonghus, if it don't cascade, how can you explain Mícheál Ó Siadhail's sentences: "Feicim an fear a shílim atá sásta." "An bhfuil an leabhar ar an mbord a sílim a bhfuil sé air?" ? ps: the other sentences I wrote are supposed to mean: "I see the man whose son I think is content" "I see the man who I regret is here" "I see the man whose son I regret is here" French: "Je vois l'homme dont je pense que le fils est content" "Je vois l'homme dont je regrette qu'il soit là" "Je vois l'homme dont je regrette que le fils soit là" |
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Seosamh Mac Muirí Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:05 am: |
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Feicim an fear a shílim atá sásta." "An bhfuil an leabhar ar an mbord a sílim a bhfuil sé air?" Coibhneas áite an darna ceann. Sin a bhfuil ann. Tá an ghné seo cíortha cheana: http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/21/13323.html Srónaíl le coibhneas an ama a Pheadair mar a léirigh tú as obair na beirte, Mhac an Fhailigh agus Thurneysen. Léiríonn an sliocht sin as Thurneysen go bhfuil ársaíocht ag baint leis an dá nós: Nasalization of the relative forms of simple verbs, except the copula, is usual (though not quite consistently shown) in the Würzburg Glosses; in later sources it is found more regularly. Examples: _in tain m-bís_ 'when he is' (beside _in tain bíis_ where, however, the m may have been dropped between n and b)... ... Chuaigh muintir an Spidéil ar an nós céanna le muintir Dhú Chaocháin leis an séimhiú agus foirm neamhspleách an bhriathair (gan foirceann 's' an choibhnis chomh maith), ach d'fhan an mhuintir eile siar Chonamara agus an tUltach leis an úrú. An tan a bhí earrach an fheannta thuas, ní raibh aon bheithidheach lé fagháil lé a olcas tháinig an sneachta is an sioc. Gabhaim féin leis an úrú, an tsrónaíl, le coibhneas an ama (agus le coibhneas áite): An tan a raibh earrach an fheannta thuas, > A. Láith. An tan a mbeidh earrach an fheannta thuas/ an t-am a mbeidh ... . >Srónaíl le coibhneas an ama a Pheadair< Ó-ó-ó-ó... Bhoil, feiceamaist céard fhaghanns muid in "Caint Ros Muc": [an] t-am a raibh ón t-am a raibh nuair a bhí nuair a bhíodar nuair a bhíodh nuair a bheadh nuair a tháinig nuair a chuaigh nuair a d'úirt nuair a chonaic uair a bith a dteastóidh uair a bith a n-iarrfaidh -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peadar Ó Gríofa Sea, san áit a mbíonn urú leis an gcoibhneas indíreach ama ag dream in áit amháin, Conamara agus in Ultaibh: [an] t-am a raibh ón am a raibh uair a' bith a dteastóidh uair a' bith a n-iarrfaidh is ag séimhiú a bheas dream in áit eile, An Spidéal agus Iorras. (Níl de Bháldraithe lem' ais ach is nós suntasach é ag cainteoirí maithe an Spidéil). An rud is ionadh liom, na difríochtaí seo ó cheantar go chéile a mheasfaí gur le nuaíocht a tharla chugainn iad ach a mbíonn ársaíocht bhreá ag baint leo, mar a dheimhnigh Thurneysen dúinn sa chás seo. Tá a fhios agam gur luadh a leithéid seo liom cheana, na blianta siar agus sinn i mbun Gluaiseanna Strachan (uimh. 19: in tan mberes claind, is fáilid íar sin), ach Seán Bán Breathnach agus cainteoirí maithe an Spidéil, braithfidh roinnt ó thuaidh - agus siar Conamara - as alt iad ina gcuid cainte le hais mar a déarfaidís féin é. An dá thaobh ceart agus breis is míle bliain de chleachtadh acu araon. |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 512 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:18 am: |
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quote:"I see the man whose son I think is content" Feicim an fear a gceapaim go bhfuil a mhac sásta. quote:"I see the man who I regret is here" As far as I'm aware, the use of "aiféala" in translating this is wrong. I believe the phrase "is oth liom" is more fitting. Feicim an fear gurb oth liom go bhfuil sé i láthair. quote:"I see the man whose son I regret is here" Feicim an fear gurb oth liom go bhfuil a mhac i láthair. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1341 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:24 am: |
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By the way, max, Learning Irish is specific to the dialect of Cois Fharraige in Co Galway. Other dialects may deal with these questions differently. I'm a little surprised, that if you plan to do a PhD on Irish, you have not spent time learning Irish in the Gaeltacht. I would have thought it to be essential to your research to be familiar with all the dialects as well as standrad Irish. It's hard to see how you will acheive that from France. |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:06 pm: |
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thanx Fear_na_mbróg , i noticed that your relative clauses were indirect. (where it's direct when it's simply "feicim an fear is oth liom" or "feicim an fear is maith liom"). i feel a bit like i'm in the fog right now... hopefully not for too long... Aonghus, i think of going to ireland indeed. i can't right now but i will. still, i can do a lot of research in france because i deal with syntax (where there are only a limited number of different structures). if i were dealing with semantics, i'd have to be fluent. |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:36 pm: |
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let's see (tell me if i'm wrong): "i regret this man" = "is oth liom an fear seo" "i regret that this man is here" = "is oth liom go bhfuil an fear seo anseo" "the man whom i regret" = "an fear is oth liom" "the man who i regret is here" = "an fear gurb oth liom go bhfuil sé anseo" couldn't you have: "an fear arb oth liom go bhfuil sé anseo" ? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1344 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 04:15 am: |
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C'est pas possible de regretter un homme! On ne peut regretter que des faits. Je ne comprends ce que tu veut dire. Or are they just fragments? "the man who i regret is here" = "an fear gurb oth liom go bhfuil sé anseo" couldn't you have: "an fear arb oth liom go bhfuil sé anseo" ? Oui. Mais je dirai An fear arbh oth liom é bheith anseo. (Message edited by aonghus on May 05, 2005) |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 05:48 am: |
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about "regretter" i got mixed up...: in french you can say "je regrette que cet homme soit là" as well as "je regrette cet homme". but now i think of it, the verb has not the same meaning exactly... i was trying to find a word that would semantically fit in the 2 structures. (the problem with syntax is to construct examples that are syntactically correct and don't feel semantically odd... i encounter this problem in french as well...) could it work with "fearr" ?: "is fearr liom an fear seo" "is é an fear is fearr liom" "is fearr liom nach dteagann an fear seo anseo" (i prefer that this man doesn't come) "is é an fear arb fhearr liom nach dteagann sé anseo" (this is the man who i prefer he doesn't come" |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1346 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 05:54 am: |
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is fearr liom an fear seo is eisean an fear is fearr liom B'fhearr (Ba + fhearr) liom nach dtiocfadh an fear anseo is eisean an fear arbh fhearr liom nach dtiocfadh sé anseo Wait for a second opinion. (Ou est Lughaidh quand on a besoin de lui?). When I try to think about correct grammar I make (even) more mistakes. |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
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now, how would you say: "you who are a priest (tell her she shoudn't do that)" "you who are the priest (tell her she shoudn't do that)" |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1355 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 04:25 am: |
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Tusa, arb sagart thú, (abair lei nár cheart di sin a dhéanamh) Tusa, arb an sagart thú, (abair lei nár cheart di sin a dhéanamh) |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 06:46 am: |
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thanx Aonghus. if I wanna say: "milk is good", is it "is maith bainne" ? and "the milk that is good" : "an bainne is maith"? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1358 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 06:51 am: |
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Tá bainne go maith An bainne mhaith would be more natural than an bainne atá go maith Also, I'm not sure about your use of "good" here. Le lait est bon (peut lait etre mauvais? Comment?) Le bon lait Le lait qui est bon |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 518 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 06:54 am: |
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Keep in mind that Irish is very fond of the definite article. Germany = An Ghearmáin I wouldn't be surprised if "Milk is good" would be translated literally as "The milk is good"; maybe something like: Is maith an bainne That's how I'd express it in the general sense (not referring to a particular sample of milk). But then if I was in some-one's house and they handed me a glass of milk and I took a sup and it was nice, and I wanted to express "The milk is good", I'd say: Tá an bainne go maith or maybe: Is maith an bainne é seo |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 519 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 06:57 am: |
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A Aonghuis, Cad í an chaoi is fearr chun "should" a rá? Tá a fhios agam gur féidir an focal "ceart" a úsáid, ach nílim cinnte cén aimsir is fearr a úsáid: Mar shampla: She should go home and get her bag. An ndéarfá é sin mar: a) Is ceart di dul abhaile 's a mála a fháil nó b) Ba cheart di dul abhaile 's a mála fháil ? "should" = "is ceart" nó "ba cheart" ? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1359 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 07:07 am: |
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Is ceart "Ba cheart" a usáid. Modh conníollach - níl tú cinnte go rachfaidh sí, níl ann ach do thuairim gur cheart di. (should versus shall). Má deir tú "is ceart" níl ceist ar bith ann faoi. Maidir leis an alt, ní aontíom leat. An Ghéarmáin - toisc nach bhfuil ann (anois) ach an taon ghéarmáin amháin. Ach le rud teibí cosúil le bainne, níl gá le alt, dar liom. Dar liom go bhfuil rud éigin in easnamh san abairt "is maith an bainne" Bheadh "is maith an bainne a bhíonn ag premier" ceart, mar shampla. |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:04 am: |
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Le lait est bon. (it's used when refering to a particular situation: "le lait est bon dans ce restaurant" = in this restaurant the milk that is served is good ; "oui, le lait est bon" = you asked me to taste the milk that is in the frige to see if it's still good, and I tell you it is) milk is good (for your health) = le lait c'est bon pour ta santé (the milk it's good for your health) Le bon lait (s'achète à la ferme) = if you want good milk, you'll have to buy it from a farm (the good milk is bought at the farm) Le lait qui est bon (s'achète à la ferme) = same as above |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1364 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:23 am: |
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le lait est bon dans ce restaurant je dirai Tá an bainne go maith sa phroinnteach seo mais Tá bainne maith ar fáil sa phroinnteach seo serait plus naturelle (si on peut dir ca en francais) le lait c'est bon pour ta santé Tá bainne go maith do'd shláinte meilleur Ól bainne ar mhaithe le do shláinte Bu lait pout ta santé Le bon lait (s'achète à la ferme) Tá an bainne mhaith le ceannach ag an bhfeirm Attendez a Lughaidh ou autre experte grammatique. Je suis parleur de naissance, mais du cité, pas du Gaeltacht. Allors, comme je ne écrit plus (often) en Irlandais, il y a des fauts dans ma grammatique. (Chose que Lughaidh me souvent dit ) |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
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I was trying to find an adjective that could work in both sentences: /copula/+/adjective/+/noun/ /copula/+/adjective/+/prepositional pronoun/+/noun/ This is what I find in "Learning Irish": - "With a certain few adjectives the copula is normally used, e.g. Is ionann iad (They are the same)" - "exclamatory use: Is deas í do léine! (you shirt is nice!)" - "emphatic word order: Is deas an duine é (he is a *nice* person)" - "idiomatic use of the copula and le : Is maith le Cáit bainne (Cáit likes milk) I don't really understand the difference between "exclamatory" and "emphatic" could you have: "is deas é an duine!" (the man is nice!) ? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1367 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:56 am: |
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quote:I don't really understand the difference between "exclamatory" and "emphatic" It's a nuanced difference. quote:could you have: "is deas é an duine!" (the man is nice!) Yes. But I'd be hard pressed to say woithout context or tone of voice to say whether that is emphatic or exclamatory. NB duine = personne, pas homme (fear) |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
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if "ionann" is normally used with the copula, can you have for "their books are the same": "is ionann iad a leabhartha" ? |
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iad Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
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and maybe emphatically: "their books are *the same*" "is ionann a leabhartha iad" ? |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:48 am: |
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oops, i signed "iad" |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 529 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 02:22 pm: |
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The plural of "leabhar" is "leabhair". Their books are the same = Is ionann a leabhair. |
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max Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 04:33 pm: |
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the form "leabhartha" is what I have in Mícheál Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish"... |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1369 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 04:39 pm: |
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Which, as I said before, focusses on one sub dialect, and therefore deviates from the standard. However, "ionann" means identical. I'd say "Tá na leabhair chéanna acu" I'm having trouble following you on this because I find the examples contrived and unnatural. I think I'll leave the field to the grammarians... |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 05:19 pm: |
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the unnaturalness is due to the fact that the examples are deprived of context. (sorry for that) I wasn't trying to get the exact translation of "their books are the same", I was trying to find an example in Irish in which the adjective won't work with "tá" (like: "tá mé sásta"), but with the copula (like: "is ionann iad"). 1/ would you accept "is ionann iad" (they are identical), or say it's only Cois Fhairrge Irish? 2/ if you accept, would you say that "the books are identical" is: (1)"is ionann iad na leabhair", (2)"is ionann na leabhair iad" or (3)"is ionann na leabhair" ? if you do not like the word "leabhair", you can change it to make it sound more natural. #2 looks like the sentence "is mór an trua é" (it is a great pity) (Ó Siadhail). - Is it only Cois Fhairrge Irish ? - If no, could #2 be emphasized too ? - Still if no, is there any explanation why the pronoun is "é" whereas "trua" is feminine ? |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 07:51 pm: |
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now i'm trying to translate this. tell me if i'm wrong... "his son is priest" = "is sagart é a mhac" "his son is the priest" = "is é a mhac an sagart" "the man whose son is priest" = "an fear ar sagart a mhac" "the man whose son is the priest" = "an fear arb é a mhac an sagart" |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 289 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 08:17 pm: |
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>is fearr liom an fear seo (correct) >is eisean an fear is fearr liom (correct) >B'fhearr (Ba + fhearr) liom nach dtiocfadh an fear anseo (correct) >is eisean an fear arbh fhearr liom nach dtiocfadh sé anseo (correct) >"you who are a priest (tell her she shoudn't do that)" >"you who are the priest (tell her she shoudn't do that)" A thusa atá i do shagart (abair léi nár chóir di seo a dhéanamh) A thusa ar tú an sagart (?) (abair léi...) >Tusa, arb sagart thú, (abair lei nár cheart di sin a dhéanamh) No because "arb" is only used before vowels (as well as "arbh", "gurb", "gurbh") >Tusa, arb an sagart thú, (abair lei nár cheart di sin a dhéanamh) Wrong word order: in copula sentences, when your predicate is definite and when your subject is mé, tú, muid, sibh, you put these before the predicate is tú an sagart > a thusa ar tú an sagart. >if I wanna say: "milk is good", is it "is maith bainne" ? is maith an rud bainne. (what would be the sentence with tá? i don’t manage to see whether u need the article before bainne or not... i’m between English influence and french influence...) >and "the milk that is good" : "an bainne is maith"? An bainne atá go maith. >Tá bainne go maith (sounds odd to me) >An bainne mhaith would be more natural than (bainne is masculine so anyway it is "n bainne maith") >Also, I'm not sure about your use of "good" here. >Le lait est bon (peut lait etre mauvais? Comment?) S’il est pas frais :-D >Le bon lait >Le lait qui est bon >"his son is priest" = "is sagart é a mhac" Why not "is sagart a mhac" ? I think both are correct, the form with é would be Connemara. >"his son is the priest" = "is é a mhac an sagart" (correct) >"the man whose son is priest" = "an fear ar sagart a mhac" (correct) >"the man whose son is the priest" = "an fear arb é a mhac an sagart" (correct) |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:20 pm: |
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Lughaidh, tu me sauves la vie !! tu pourrais regarder mon message avec "is ionann iad" juste au-dessus ? I'm looking for copula sentences where the predicate is an adjective (but not with a prepositional pronoun like "is maith liom bainne") to transform them into relative clauses. something simple like : /copula/ /adjective=predicate/ /indefinite noun=subject/ /copula/ /adjective=predicate/ /definite noun=subject/ |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1373 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 07:15 am: |
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Max I don't pretend to be an authority on dialects. I just know the Ó Siadhail book because it has been translated into German, and my wife tried to use it to learn Irish. (She gave up because the vocabulary was too remote from ordinary urban life with children...)
>Le lait est bon (peut lait etre mauvais? Comment?) S’il est pas frais :-D There is a problem of scope there between milk in general and some milk in particular!
>>"his son is priest" = "is sagart é a mhac" >>Why not "is sagart a mhac" ? I think both are correct, the form with é would be Connemara. The form with "é" adds emphasis. His son is a priest, and not any other profession... (Strange example, but...)
Max, as I said, the grammar terms have lost me. I think Lughaidh will be of more use to you. Are you in touch with the Irish departments of the universities here? Surely they would be a more reliable source? |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 08:02 am: |
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Aonghus, sorry to use obfuscating words... I tried not to use them and just ask for translations in which I thought I would find what I'm looking for. But it doesn't always work... I'm not in touch with the Irish departments. Do you have any idea how I could do it? As for Dialects: the different linguistic levels of dialects do not drift away form one another at the same pace. pronounciation and vocabulary are the quickest to evolve. syntax is much much slower. But since the deeper levels are "hidden" by the surface levels, the dialects can look very different from one another. But I read that some-one speaking a certain dialect could, with a little practice, understand the others... is it true? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1374 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 02:31 pm: |
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quote:But I read that some-one speaking a certain dialect could, with a little practice, understand the others... is it true? Yes. quote:I'm not in touch with the Irish departments. Do you have any idea how I could do it? http://www.ucd.ie http://www.tcd.ie http://www.nuigalway.ie etc.... |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1375 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 02:54 pm: |
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Paul Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 03:31 pm: |
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Paul Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 03:36 pm: |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 296 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 08:20 pm: |
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>Lughaidh, tu me sauves la vie !! Tant mieux si je peux t’aider, j’en suis content :) >tu pourrais regarder mon message avec "is ionann iad" juste au-dessus ? >the unnaturalness is due to the fact that the examples are deprived of context. (sorry for that) >I wasn't trying to get the exact translation of "their books are the same", I was trying to find an example in Irish in which the adjective won't work with "tá" (like: "tá mé sásta"), but with the copula (like: "is ionann iad"). Ok. Mais en fait, les cas où tu utilises un adjective comme prédicat avec "is", sont plut^ot littéraires, ou ce sont des expressions figées généralement. Je ne pense pas que les gens utilisent spontanément "is" pour dire que qch est comme ci ou comme ca. On utilise plutôt tá. >1/ would you accept "is ionann iad" (they are identical), or say it's only Cois Fhairrge Irish? Oh, ca doit exister partout à mon avis. >2/ if you accept, would you say that "the books are identical" is: (1)"is ionann iad na leabhair", (2)"is ionann na leabhair iad" or (3)"is ionann na leabhair" ? Je te conseille de lire l'article sur "ionann" dans le dico de O Dónaill. Cela dit, je peux pas te répondre de facon certaine, à part sur ceci: "is ionann na leabhair iad" se dit, mais la structure est différente. En fait, quand tu dis "c'est un homme bon", par exemple, on dira généralt en irlandais "is maith an fear é", plus souvent que "is fear maith é". Je trouve cette structure intéressante, c'est "est bon l'homme lui". Avec ionann, dans la phrase ci-dessus c'est la mm chose: "sont semblables les livres eux" (pour: "ce sont des livres semblables"). Par contre, on pourrait pas dire "is leabhair ionanna iad", parce qu'ionann ne peut être que prédicat, pas épithète (comment dit-on épithète en grammaire non-scolaire?), et ne s'utilise qu'avec "is". Je pense que "is ionann na leabhair" est correct, mais j'en suis pas sûr. Dans ce cas, il y a une nuance de sens avec l'autre phrase: ici ca signifie "les livres sont semblables". >if you do not like the word "leabhair", you can change it to make it sound more natural. >#2 looks like the sentence "is mór an trua é" (it is a great pity) (Ó Siadhail). >- Is it only Cois Fhairrge Irish ? Non, ca s'utilise partout. Parfois on dit seult "mór a’ trua", mais c'est une forme raccourcie de la précédente. >- If no, could #2 be emphasized too ? Comment ca? Non je vois pas comment on pourrait mettre de l'emphase sur ca, c'est déjà emphatique. >- Still if no, is there any explanation why the pronoun is "é" whereas "trua" is feminine ? Ben, premièrement, c'est une expression figée (ce genre de bizarrerie arrive souvent dans les expressions figées). On peut comprendre que ca signifie "cela est un grand dommage", avec "é" qui a une valeur "neutre". >I'm looking for copula sentences where the predicate is >an adjective (but not with a prepositional pronoun >like "is maith liom bainne") to transform them into >relative clauses. >something simple like : >/copula/ /adjective=predicate/ /indefinite noun=subject/ >/copula/ /adjective=predicate/ /definite noun=subject/ Is fíor sin (c'est un peu une expression figée qd même) = c'est vrai Ba deas an radharc ( Avec un sujet indéfini, je vois pas trop d'exemples... sauf peut-être avec des adjectifs au comparatif: is fearr fíon ná uisce (est meilleur vin qu'eau) - le vin c'est meilleur que l'eau. Je verrais pas de phrase avec sujet indefini et prédicat adjectival, d'ailleurs même en francais "un homme est bon" etc, ca sonne bizarre (ou pê ai-je mal choisi mon exemple...) >But since the deeper levels are "hidden" by the surface >levels, the dialects can look very different from one >another. On sent le générativiste :-) >But I read that some-one speaking a certain dialect could, with a little practice, understand the others... is it true? Oui, c'est vrai. D'ailleurs, de plus en plus les locuteurs natifs comprennent les autres dialectes, car en écoutant Raidió na Gaeltachta, ils entendent tous les dialectes, et avec l'habitude ils comprennent tout. Max, je te conseille un bouquin consacré à la syntaxe d'un dialecte, celui de Gaoth Dobhair (le mien, soi dit en passant): O MUIRI, D., Comhréir Ghaeilge Ghaoth Dobhair, Coiscéim, Dublin, 1982, que tu peux trouver sur www.litriocht.com Tu trouveras sans doute pas mal de réponses à tes questions, mais il faut préciser que certaines des structures que tu y trouveras st surtout utilisées dans le Donegal. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 29 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:33 pm: |
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Lughaidh wrote: Ok. Mais en fait, les cas où tu utilises un adjective comme prédicat avec "is", sont plut^ot littéraires, ou ce sont des expressions figées généralement. Je ne pense pas que les gens utilisent spontanément "is" pour dire que qch est comme ci ou comme ca. On utilise plutôt tá. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There is occasionally some confusion about whether the predicates used with "is" are functioning as nouns or as adjectives. Take "trua", for example. In FGB (= Ó Dónaill) there are two entries. Under "trua 1", the noun entry, we find "is mór an trua an duine bocht" and "is beag an trua é". The noun status of "trua" here is unambiguous. But under "trua 2", the adjective entry, we have "Is trua sin!" The status of "trua" here is really grammatically ambiguous from a formal standpoint. It could be an adjective, it could be a noun. In many (most?) cases ("Is cinnte sin", for example) the predicate is unambiguously an adjective. But in other cases ("Is leor sin") it seems to be an adjective, but one of very limited scope. According to FGB, "fleá leor" (= ample feast) is correct literary usage, but it sounds odd nonetheless, and I don't think any speaker of Modern Irish would generate sentences such as: *Tá an bia anseo leor. = The food here is ample/sufficient. *Tá bia leor againn. = We have ample food. FGB treats the "leor" in "Is leor..." as an adjective, but given the facts of usage, it's easy for a speaker of Irish to categorize it as a predicate noun. |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 30 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:53 pm: |
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Dála an scéil, nuair a deir FGB go bhfuil focal "Lit(erary)", is é litríocht na Nua-Ghaeilge Clasaicí atá i gceist acu, ní úrscéalta, gearrscéalta, 7c. a scríobhadh ó Athbheochan na Gaeilge i leith. Is ionann "lit." agus "ársa" nó seanfhaiseanta den chuid is mó. Les mots qui sont désiginés par "Lit." dans le dico sont pour la plupart des mots qui n'ont plus cours, ou qui figurent dans des tournures caduques. |
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