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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (March-April) » Archive through April 19, 2005 » Pronunciation of broad final "ch" in northern dialects « Previous Next »

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 53
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 02:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

a chairde:

is it a rule that the broad final "ch" in Donegal dialects is often aspirated to hard "h" sound?
for instance: a word teasbach, teaspach, etc. would the final syllable sound like bah-- or Bach (as in German composer/) or neither?

go raibh maith agaibh

DC

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 166
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 09:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dhancais, a chara,

quote:

is it a rule that the broad final "ch" in Donegal dialects is often aspirated to hard "h" sound?


It is according to Dónall P. Ó Baoill. He wrote that in Ulster Irish,
1.17 Fuaimniú ch,
1.17.1 ch leathan

...
(b) I lár/ndeireadh focail tá ch tugtha do bheith ag lagú go /h/. cladach, amach, easnacha, eochair, cloch(a) srl.
...
1.17.2 ch caol
Deirtear é mar ch láidir i ngach suíomh ag tús, i lár agus ag deireadh focail de ghnáth.Tá claonadh áirithe mar sin féin /h/ a dhéanamh den ch caol idir dhá ghuta. cheannaigh, mícheart, mo chead, cluiche, droichead, fiche, Micheál, oíche, ar an chloich (chloch)
An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Uladh, Instititiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, 1996, p. 17.
which I would translate as
1.17 Pronunciation of ch
1.17.1 Broad ch

...
In the middle or end of words the ch is prone to be weakened to /h/. cladach, amach, easnacha, eochair, cloch(a) srl.
...
1.17.2 Slender ch
It is said that it is usually like a strong ch in every position, in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end of words. None the less, there is a certain tendency to make an \h\ [sound] when a slender ch is between two vowels. cheannaigh, mícheart, mo chead, cluiche, droichead, fiche, Micheál, oíche, ar an chloich (chloch)
Note in that last example that a slender ch ending is not softened to an \h\.

(Message edited by lúcas on April 10, 2005)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 54
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Lúcas a chara

It's time to tap my tiach 's gla/m "O Baoill"

Go raibh míle maith agat.

Dan

DC

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 257
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I dunno what is a strong ch in what he says. I guess he means it's a strong slender ch sound, so /ç/ (German Ich-Laut).

A final broad ch is pronounced as an English h most of the time, and in fast speech it can disappear completely.
Note: -ach in an unstressed syllabe is pronounced with a clear /a/ sound in Ulster, not with an /э/ sound as in Munster and Connemara.

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 55
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 03:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh:

Is /э/ sound somewhat equivalent to the English phoneme "Eh?" I am a leath-dhuine on IPA.

Beannacht

DC

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 262
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

No, /э/ is the sound of the English a in "alone" "about" etc. It's called a "neutral vowel". The symbol э is a russian letter, not the real symbol (which is an upside down "e"), but we use it here because it's almost as the real symbol. The real symbol can't be written here because of the font used in this forum. We use that quite similar russian letter instead...

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 62
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A while ago, Lúcas explained how to show the ə symbol, which as Lughaidh points out above, is the neutral vowel sound, also known as the schwa. Here's Lúcas' method:

"To display the schwa, input the character tag used for this forum with the argument 601. It looks like /char{601} except that the slash goes the other way like \char."

When Lúcas first posted this method, I didn't understand it, but after looking at his method again, I finally understand it. What Lúcas means above is that you first enter exactly "\char" (without the quotes) and then enter "{601}" (without the quotes) with no spaces between any of the characters. Don't forget the brackets.

The reason why Lúcas didn't show the exact phrase as it needs to be written is if he did show it exactly as written a schwa would have appeared in his posting and not the instructions on how to do it.

Thanks Lúcas!

Le meas,

Dáithí

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somhairle
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 194.80.99.87
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 04:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I am a northern speaker of Irish, though not native.
A short answer to your question but be yes, teasbach and teaspach etc would be pronounced with a broad "ch" sound like that of German composer Bach.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 264
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Shomhairle

d'fhreagair mé 'n cheist cheana féin thuas, ar léigh tú é?

Maidir le fuaimníocht leathan i ndeireadh focail i dTír Chonaill, más fuide a théad tú ó thuaidh, más lú a chluinfeas tú fuaim an . Cluintear /x/ sa deisceart i dTeileann agus i nGleann Cholm Cille, ach cha gcluintear ach /h/ nó dheamhan a dheath níos mó i Ros Goill.

Ní fuaim láidir atá ann don chuid is mó i dTír Chonaill inniu - cár fhoghlaim tusa Gaeilg?

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 09:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chairde:

From my leath-dhuine (half-wit) semi-literate reading of Lughaidh's last post, it seems to me that Somhairle is saying the "ch" sounds like the English/Amer. pron. of Bach which resembles Bokh (remember I am a NY-er, haha) and Lughaidh is politely asking where Somhairle learned Gaeilge, since the broad "ch" in most of Donegal is more like "h" today.

go raibh maith agaibh for these helpful replies.

Makes me feel like a "Teasbach" foirfe, personified and fortified with teas ioma.



dc

DC



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