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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (March-April) » Archive through April 19, 2005 » Help me translate into english.... « Previous Next »

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lacey
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Posted From: 68.189.66.136
Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chuisle Mo chroi, Mo anam cara"...thank you danette

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 140
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Literally: O Heartbeat; my heart, my dear soul.

It loses in translation. These are terms of endearment and there is a lot of latitude when translating into English. You might say,

Oh, dearest; my darling; my life. Whoever said it, if he said it to you, he really thinks the world of you.

Beannacht

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 256
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chuisle mo chroí = beat of my heart (i think it's just one expression and not two, despite the capital letter M, that may be a typing mistake)

*mo anam cara seems to mean "my soulmate", but it seems to me it's not good irish (for word order and the use of "mo" in a vocative expression). I'd say "a chara m'anama" or something like that.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 302
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I read somewhere that "anam cara" is frequently used as "soul mate" but in actuality means something like "spiritual guide" or "confessor"

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Budineire
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Username: Budineire

Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 08:22 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I have recently read a book called "anam cara" by an american author called John o Donohue, he discusses spiritual wisdom from the celtic world. he says that "anam cara" is th name given to someone who is your soul mate or like you say Antaine a spiritual guide of some sort, to which to can open your inermost secrets, and reveal all the intamacies of your life, he says is his book this title given to people goes back to early celtic times.
he also says it can mean soul love, and the title was given to people such as teachers, companions or spiritual guides in early celtic times.
he also says that God in the "anam cara" of everyone throughout their lives. according to celtic belief.

if you are interested in spiritual wisdom, this is a good book to read!

Le grá
*Eíbhlin* ;o)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1252
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 09:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Anam chara is a spiritual director - someone who gives you spiritual advice. But it seems to be gaining currency outside Irish speaking circles as a translation of soul mate in the sense of someone deeply loved.

I'm somewhat sceptical of O Donohue's derivation of it. As far as I know, the term originates in the 9th century with the Céilí Dé who were a particular strict group of Christian monks. I suppose it depends on your definition of "early celtic times". I'd call that fairly late!

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Budineire
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Username: Budineire

Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus, I wold be inclined to agree with you, however I didnt want to argue with O Donohoue's work as i though he may have researched it a bit more, however that may be his opionion rather than fact! :o)

Le grá
*Eíbhlin* ;o)

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Maidhc Ó G.
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Posted From: 64.12.116.136
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 11:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I agree with Aonghus' stating that it is gaining currrency as someone who is deeply loved. I see it more and more.
I would take, "A chuisle, mo chroí, m'anamcara,..." as, 'Oh Darling, my love, my soulmate,..." despite any inexactness.

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 141
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 06:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dhanette, a chara,

I'm curious as to where you got the expression(s); ie, the context. As I said above, if someone addressed this to you ...

The construction is in the vocative, so somebody was speaking to someone.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 258
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

If that word exists, then it's anamchara in one word, because in Irish, in a group of nouns, you always put the determining word afte rthe determinated one - unlike english. You can have the contrary order only if the determinating element is a prefix.

Like: english : "a German language class" > Irish "rang Gearmáinise", never *Gearmáinis rang.

In some cases, as i said you can inverse the elements if the determinating element is a prefix. That is a very old way of making compounds (quite common in Old Irish), and i think it's not used anymore in native Irish - if non-linguist Gaeltacht speakers had to create words, they wouldn't use that way. Now, that way is very used by linguists in order to create new (technical) words. I think they use it too much though, and they're influenced by the English elements' order.
When i have a look at some technical new words on www.acmhainn.ie, it is clear that quite often, the words creators have translated the word directly from English, putting the elements in the same order in Irish. I think they shouldn't think in English when creating a new Irish word...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1253
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 04:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

When i have a look at some technical new words on www.acmhainn.ie, it is clear that quite often, the words creators have translated the word directly from English, putting the elements in the same order in Irish. I think they shouldn't think in English when creating a new Irish word...



I (as a technical person) think the larger problem is that the people doing the translation often don't understand the technical concept!

But I think they are aware of the problem, and try to consult other languages before finding a translation. It is hard to translate technical terms unless you have technical knowledge as well as deep knowledge of the source and target languages.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1254
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 04:22 am:   Edit Post Print Post

By the way, you're perfectly correct - it should be one word or hyphenated. But it exists! (It is in Dineen, and in christian spiritual literature going back a long time)



anamchara [ainmfhocal firinscneach]
comhairleoir spioradálta.


Foirmeacha
anamchara - ainmfhocal
anamcharad [ginideach uatha]
anamchairde [ainmneach iolra]
anamchairde [ginideach iolra

(Message edited by aonghus on April 11, 2005)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 260
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

But I think they are aware of the problem, and try to consult other languages before finding a translation.

I don’t think so: almost every time, the Irish word is an exact copy of the English one.

It is hard to translate technical terms unless you have technical knowledge as well as deep knowledge of the source and target languages.

People who are in charge to create new words in Irish in a specific domain should have technical knowledge as well as deep knowledge of the source and target languages. I think it’s possible to find such people in Ireland in every domain... there are thousands of native Irish speakers...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1261
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is fíor sin. Ach níl siad uilig ar fáil don gcoiste téarmaíochta.

What you have on acmhainn is (as far as I know) an unedited, unreviewed, suggested translation. Part of the reason for having it there is to get feedback from the public.

The Coiste Téarmaíochta is a small group of people; they are working on a project to harness the internet to allow those thousands of people to collaborate, but it's not in action yet.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1263
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 05:22 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I should point out that most languages (except French, which has an academy) just use the english term....

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 263
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 09:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The French Academy, as far as i know, doesn't choose nor create any word, they make a dictionary in which they try to include every word in usage (actually they're late and they'll always be, because they take centuries to make one volume of their dictionary, and when it's finished, the contents is out of date :-D). There are people, in the government i think, who'd like to get rid of all borrowings from English, but that's stupid because people do it anyway, and every language borrows words, for millenia (Old Irish would do it, Old Brythonic would do it, Latin would do it, Hittite would do it, etc). Most French people, and especially in the government, are very chauvinist (? i mean patriot in a bad part) and uncounsciously want to get rid of every foreign thing in France. How stupid, cultures wouldn't exist if there wasn't communication between people and nations... Anyway.
For "e-mail" for example, many chauvinist scholars offered words like "mél" "courriel" etc. Almost nobody uses them, people say "mail" or "email" or "message". "Mail" isn't used in French for regular letters, so it can be used for emails without problem. Actuallt, "mail" and "message" are French words, at the first place, and they've been borrowed by English ("mail" is a mediaeval word, not in use any more, and "message" is a modern word)

In most countries (maybe except Iceland?), only scholars are interested by the new-created words and use them, normal people borrow words from the other languages or create their own ones...

In Ireland, i guess that Gaeltacht speakers don't care for all these new words, they use English words most of the time for everything that has no name in natural Irish.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1265
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 04:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Sin é go díreach. Personally, I prefer sensible new irish words - because (especially in computing) the english word is often based on an english idiom rather than the underlying sense. So translating the term is senseless.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 492
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 10:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think a good example is "rhinocerous":

quote:

Sometime during the 14th century someone decided to give this mammal its present day name. The characteristic of the animal that struck them the most was the large horn that grew from its nose. The Greek word for nose is rhis, and the combining form (the form that is used when it is combined with other word elements) is rhin-. The Greek word for horn is keras. So this animal was named a "nose-horn animal" or a "rhinoceros." (The Greek letter for "k" is often changed to a "c" when it is transliterated to another language.)



So then eventually Irish speaking people got wind of this creature. Look up "rhinceros" in an English-Irish dictionary and you're given "srónbheannach".

srón = nose

beannach... I went to acmhainn and it gave me the English word "mitral". I looked up "mitral" and it gave me "relating to or resembling the miter worn by some clerics"... so I looked up "miter" and it gave me "The headdress of a bishop, sometimes used as a charge, either singly or in numbers". So basically they're trying to convey the idea of "horn", but in a elaborate manner as if it's some sort of glorious crown.

I wonder what Irish speaking people throughout Ireland refer to a rhinoceros as?

Chonaic sé an rhinoceros?
Chonaic sé an srónbheannach?

Or what would "rhino" become... "srónaí"?

One thing I've started to notice lately with "new words" is how they're making "compund words" -- a carbon copy of the english formation -- and I'm not sure how natural they are to the Irish language. Take "chequebook" for example.

cheque = seic
book = leabhar

So my translation would be:

Leabhar seiceanna

but instead you have:

seicleabhar

and similarly:

srónbheannach

My 1st argument would be that they're in the wrong order... my 2nd would be that if this gets done left, right and centre, would it not cause ambiguity? For instance you hear someone say "seicleabhar"... did they say:

A) seicleabhar = cheque book
or
B) seic leabhar = books cheque

Word order is fundamental to a language.

"John killed Jill". Word order is paramount in the preceeding sentence.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1267
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mar a dúirt Lughaidh thuas, gnath nós a bhí ann sa tsean Ghaeilge focal nua a chumadh tríd an aidiacht a chuir ar dtús. Leanadh leis an nós úd agus focla nua dá gcumadh san aois seo chaite.

Maidir le srónbheannach

Féach "beann"

beann [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
adharc fia; spíce géar, píce, beangán.

beannach [aidiacht den chéad díochlaonadh]
adharcach; ladhrach, beangánach; triantánach ina bharr cosúil le binn tí.



Translation of the above
As Lughaidh mentioned above, it was a common practice in Old Irish to create compund nouns by placing teh adjective first. The practice was followed when new words were formed in the last century.


Although I'm fairly sure that Srónbheannach is medieval.

Consider: dobhareach - Hippopotamus
dobharchú - otter

Dobhar is an old word for water.
So dobareach - waterhorse (Hippopotamus is greek for river horse)
dobharchú - water dog

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1268
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I should also point out that acmhainn is not a general purpose dictionary. It is specifically for new terminology. Check a normal dictionary first!

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 103
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
Mar eolas daoibh.
There is at least one language (in addition to French) which doesn't just use the English term.
Latin.
By that I mean the official Church Latin of the Roman Catholic Church, which produces all sorts of official publications which can include references to a wide range of modern technological and/or technical phenomena.
There is an office in the Vatican which is responsible for these neologisms. (I can say in all honesty that I have met the man who coined the official Church Latin term for "space shuttle"!)
Beir bua!
Chris

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 266
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>Although I'm fairly sure that Srónbheannach is medieval.

If i 'm right, srónbheannach is not one of these terms since it’s srón + beannach = a horned nose, the word order is normal, and we could write srón bheannach, beannach is the adjective in its right place: after the noun...

>Consider: dobhareach - Hippopotamus
>dobharchú - otter

>Dobhar is an old word for water.
>So dobHareach - waterhorse (Hippopotamus is greek for river horse)

hippopotamos is Greek, with -us it’s the Latinized form...

>dobharchú - water dog

these are old words anyway (at least dobharchú): at that time, it was normal to compose words like that: if otters were new animals to the Irish, these would call those "madaidh uisce" or sthg like that.


Lughaidh

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1269
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 04:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

C'est vrai, Lughaidh, c'est vrai.

FnaB raised srónbheannach.

But what I am saying is that some of those who compose/translate new words deliberately chose to use an Old Irish idiom to do so. I think that is a good idea.

I don't believe that one can say there is one true way to add words to a language. Somebody composes a new word, according to principles they find good - and either the main body of speakers, or the body of speakers dealing with that topic uses the word, or they don't.

From my point of view, the important thing is that the person composing the word understands the underlying concept and translates that concept into a way that is easily understood by speakers.

So, srónbheannach - to me - is a good example of a new word (whenever it was new).

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 272
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 12:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yeah i agree with u. And i ’ll add: the people who compose new words must be native speakers or know Gaeltacht Irish perfectly.

Maidir leis a' Bhriotáinis mar shampla, ní cainteoirí maithe a chumas na foclaí nuaidhe, agus bhuel, tá a gcaighdeánsan chomh híseal sin, is féidir a ráidht nach cainteoirí iad ar chor ar bith, don chuid is mó agus seo ’n rud a tharlas: níl ciall ar bith ag na foclaí a chumas iad (is minic a thógas siad foclaí ón Bhreathnais ar iasacht, athraíonn siad an litriú ’s síleann siad go bhfuil sin maith go leor!), agus is iad na foclaí sin a theagasctar do na páistí sna scoltacha Briotáinise. Agus chan abrann duine ar bith a dheath fá dtaobh dó sin...



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