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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (March-April) » Archive through April 19, 2005 » Want an Irish passport? « Previous Next »

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 482
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Seems like there's a few people on the forum who are part Irish. Well if you come over to visit and are looking for a neat little souvenir, then get yourself an Irish passport -- all you need is a parent who was born in Ireland.

(Or was that changed in the last referendum... ?)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1208
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

Or was that changed in the last referendum.



No!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 286
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

or grandparent who was born in ireland

I am seeking to do grad school there, and would like someday dual citizenship, not just as a souvenir - I may actually go there to live.

How can I do this? I can't claim it on prior ancestry as my great-grandfather was the last family member born there, so my mother could claim it, but as she wasn't, I would not be able then to claim it through her...

what other avenues are there?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1210
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Marry an irishwoman!

There is a naturalisation process, but I don't know the details.

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Cait
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Username: Cait

Post Number: 53
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

This subject is not isolated at all. I've thought about it many times. I would one day like to live in Ireland (I have Irish ancestory, but so enterwoven that it is untraceable so far). I plan to go there one month or so in each season to see how it is to be there year round. I hope someday to have dual citizenship as well, though I do not think I will marry an Irishman.
Cáit.

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 100
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 03:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
Ceist agam oraibh.
All four of my grandparents were born in Ireland, all in the Six Counties pre-Partition.
Does anyone know if the recent changes have affected my entitlement to an Irish passport? (I know I was entitled to one fifteen years ago when I was living and working in Cork, but never followed up on it at that stage.)
Slán beo!
Chris

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 288
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

when I pulled up the laws last month (www.irlgov.ie), it seemed that you are still eligible. Possibly post-partition as well as I don't recall the law reading "born in the Irish Republic" but "born in the island of Ireland"

I would grab it now if you're ever thinking about it. Once it changes that you would be ineligible you will be forever, and that just might happen as the EU has been pushing Ireland to stiffen her citizenship laws as an Irish passport is now an EU passport as well, and brings with it many legal benefits throughout Europe.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1212
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 03:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Chris, tá tú fós i dteideal saorántacht. An t-aon athrú ná go gcaithfidh tú é a iarraidh.

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 60
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 05:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

If you have a parent born in Ireland, you are automatically an Irish Citizen.

If one of your grandparents was born in Ireland or Northern Ireland, then you need to apply for citizenship. You need to contact the Irish Embassy that handles your area. For example, in the New York area, you would contact the Irish Embassy in New York City.

The law has changed recently for spouses of those eligible for Irish citizenship, but I think the above information is correct and up to date.

I went through the process a couple years ago. It was very straightforward and took about 9 months for the processing. The key for child or grandchildren of an Irish person is to document the birth of the Irish grandparent. You can get more information on this process by contacting the Irish Embassy for your area.


Le meas,

Dáithí

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 289
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 06:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

unfortunately, my grandfather was a citizen because his father (and mother) was born there. that "doesn't count" for purposes of me applying based on his citizenship. for that, he would have had to have been born there, too...

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Ultán
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Username: Ultán

Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 07:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

My grandson has just been inscribed As Leabhar Taifeadta Breitheanna Coigríche (Foreign Births Entry Book)at the Irish Embassy in Ottawa and is now an Irish Citizen. The main thing for North Americans to remember is to send birth certificates in the long form not the short form. This can really hold up your application. All required photos with the forms sent to the Embassy become obsolete after 6 months so make sure you have all the exact required documents before applying.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 290
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 08:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

what i was reading did say that citizenship is granted at the sole discretion of the Minister...i'm hoping that if my mother applies, then she'll have it, and my grandfather had ti because both his parents were born there, and my great-grandfather (his father) was a Volunteer driven out by the british might all make a difference and a case for special circumstances

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Cailindoll
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Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 43
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 06:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Check out this, Antaine, if you can get the documents together, and your mother applies, you should be able to work it out. But you have to live in Europe several years, (3) I believe, to get EC fee status, no matter what what color your passports are. That's fair, but you might have to plan ahead!

Cris, if you have the documents, you just need to apply.

http://www.irelandemb.org/fbr.html

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 484
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 07:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Without some-one pointing me to a lenghtly webpage... what does it mean to have a passport for a particular country? Is it synonymous with citizenship? ie. if you have a passport for a certain country, are you a citizen of that country? And conversely, if you are a citizen of a particular country, are you entitled to a passport for that country?

Can you hold multiple passports? Do other nations have any problems with you bearing a passport of another nation? For instance can an American child with an Irish father simply just get both passports?

Well... I'm just plain ol' Irish. Irish Parents. Irish Grandparents. Irish Great Grandparents... Not much luck in me getting another passport... I have to say though, the different colour passports do look savage, the South Africa one is cool, jet black!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 291
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

thanks, but my mother would have had to have applied by june 1979 (or been approved by then, my birthday) for it to "count"

prior to 1985 when you were approved you would have been a citizen retroactive to either your birth or the 1957 citizenship act, whichever was later. After 1985 once approved you are a citizen from that point forward and any children you had before that are S.O.L.

...sigh...

good hunting, tho...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1221
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 08:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

if you have a passport for a certain country, are you a citizen of that country? And conversely, if you are a citizen of a particular country, are you entitled to a passport for that country?



Yes.

quote:

Can you hold multiple passports? Do other nations have any problems with you bearing a passport of another nation?



Maybe. And Maybe.
Different countries have different rules. My children have both German and Irish citizenship. But they would not be able to use German citizenship to avoid Irish duties in Ireland, and vice versa. If you become naturalised as a citizen of a country, you generally are obliged to give up other citzienships - but in some cases you can get them back. This is a big issue for Turks in Germany, say.

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Ultán
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Username: Ultán

Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

In Canada one can hold multiple passports/citizenships. My family all hold Canadian,Irish and British passports. Me having been born in Northern Ireland guarantees us this privilege. Countries like Syria though do not recognize any sort of change if one was born there.
USA I beleive now allow dual citizenship.

Good luck to everyone trying for Irish passports. If you do have that grand-dad's North/South Irish birth certificate do it today tomorrow maybe too late.

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Tj_mg
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Username: Tj_mg

Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 03:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't think you should really count on their being any chance of getting Irish citizenship without a generation any later than grandparents being Irish born. Ireland and the EU in general are EXTREMELY hostile towards any immigration or the idea of citizenship, and unspeakably opposed to naturalization as their current laws of immense insanity stand. I have Irish great-grandparents on both sides of my family but that's not enough to convince the Irish government to give one citizenship. It's true that there is a statement in the law that says any of the conditions for citizenship may be ignored at the Minister's discretion but seeing as how less than helpful the embassies and the Minister for Justice, Equality, and Law Reform is concerning immigration queries I'd seriously doubt anyone would care to consider giving someone from North America citizenship based on discretion.

What programme are you intending to study in grad school? As I said above, Irish law is extremely hostile towards the idea of naturalization and thus your programme of study may be what determines if you can obtain dual citizenship in the future. Without marrying an Irish woman or someother obscure "good reason" to reside in Ireland, you'll need to be PERMITTED To work in Ireland to be able to reside the required 5 years. But it's not easy to get a work permit. You need an employer willing to apply and pay for your permit. Furthermore, due to the EU's desire to keep out non-EU citizens, it is VERY difficult for a work permit to be granted. An employer must PROVE that there is NO EU citizen(Not just from Ireland, but anyone from France, Germany, Italy, etc) available to do the job being offered and the job and it must be a skilled job(usually meaning you need a degree). Your time in spent studying in grad school doesn't count at all as the residency required for naturalization as ridiculous as that exemption is.

Yes this may be a very pessimistic view but for all the searching that I've done for myself as someone who's to be an undergraduate student in Ireland, I've not found any positive suggestions to get around this and I personally find the current state of Immigration legislature in Ireland to be appalling. The only positive feature of these laws is that one can more easily get Work Authorization if you happen to hold a degree in an industry where there's an identified shortage(I pray that there remains a shortage in IT/Computer Science long enough for me to finish my degree).

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 292
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

hopefully a PhD in celtic studies at NUIG...also looking into the fulbright for that purpose.

should take at least four years

in addition my great grandfather was a veteran of the Easter Rising and even has a street named after him due to that. that's why i'm hoping special circumstances might come into effect...

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Beircheart
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Username: Beircheart

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ok, I skim-read this, so I appologise. I want to apply for Irish citizenship, but my mother was born in Northeren Ireland. Can I still apply? Or does she have to have been born there before a certain date? Thanks

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 293
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

my reading is that if it was after 1922 you just have an extra form to file

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Ultán
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Username: Ultán

Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Beircheart a chara,
Yes you can claim Irish citizenship through your mother providing your mother's father or mother were Northern/Southern Irish and not from say Great Britain.

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Beircheart
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Username: Beircheart

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Excellent, go raibh maith agaibh a Ultán agus a hAntaine.

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Cul_baire
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Username: Cul_baire

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 05:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry to ask, but why would so many people want an Irish passport? I have both a U.S. and an Irish passport because while I was born in New York City, I lived in Galway for some time. And both my parents are from there But I think it is kind of strange to think of Irish passports as almost souvenirs. I think of it as an extra pass to get me places I couldn't normally go with a U.S. passport. Such as Cuba. It someday may even help me get out of a horrible situation involving terrorists. I know that sounds very very very far fetched, but you never know.

I'm not coming down on anyone for trying to obtain one, just wondering why.

Oh, and yes, you can have dual citizenship in America.

Sorry, Ceist agam oraibh. So, I have an Irish and U.S. passport. If I marry a girl from, say Bulgaria, will I be able to apply for a passport there, or does it all depend on the regualtions of that country? Plus, will bulgaria be a part of the E.U. by that time, and then will I just be able to use my Irish passport under E.U. rules?

Le meas,

Caiomhín

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Cailindoll
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Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 49
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 07:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

They're too dear to have just as souvenirs, think fearb was just ag spócadh asainn! I got mine to make working and studying in Europe easier. Don't know about the Bulgaria question, but it probably depends on how long of a courtship you were planning!

: )

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 294
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 09:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I would like one for the following reasons
1) it is the land of my ancestors, ancestors who were driven out. I would like to see the family return in some way

2) with the world the way it is, being able to get out of a place without flagging yourself as an american may be life-saving

3) carries EU benefits

4) possibly make the study i am looking to do there easier

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Tj_mg
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Username: Tj_mg

Post Number: 18
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 12:22 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I would like an Irish passport because it would mean I'd have citizenship which one pretty much needs to reside permanently in Ireland without legal complications as I intend to. Not really sure if it would make my studies much easier as some have suggested it would for them. I've already paid my first year of tuition(through HORRIBLE variable-rate loans) and thus am permanently flagged as an international student who will be required to pay the high tutition regardless of citizenship. It would also make it easier to find work and work more realistic hours(Like 25 hours per week for part time during school instead of the paltry 20 hours I'm restricted to). I'm personally a little suprised no one is calling for complete renovation of Ireland's immigration laws. It should also be easier for those with significant Irish heritage(such as on both sides of the family) to get citizenship.

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Cul_baire
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Username: Cul_baire

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 03:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well with the way it used to be, it almost mirrors Sealands passports. Anyone remember that little situation off the coast of london. But atleast the irish government are getting serious about citizenship.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 296
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 09:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

doesn't mexico accept anyone with *any* provable mexican ancestry? don't get me started on pres. fox.

most indian tribes seem to require 1/16

but aint none of them in the EU.

with the special bond/situation/whateveryouwanttocallit that exists historically between ireland and us/uk/ca/au/nz you would think the EU could allow ireland special circumstances for citizens of those countries with post-famine emigration records.

the problem is, if it were too easy, the eu could find itself with 34,000,000 new citizens from the us alone, most with no intention of actually ever living in any eu country.

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Philosophe
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Username: Philosophe

Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 10:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I suppose Ireland could change its laws or whatever so that all passport owners would be Irish citizens (like it is now) but not all citizens would be entitled to a passport.

That way Americans of irish decent could have their citizenship acknowledged but would not be entitled to the "special circumstances" entitled to citizens of Ireland or the EU.

Maybe they'd have to call the new status something else not citizenship or it'd get confusing.

And if they then lived in Ireland for over 5 years or something they could claim full citizenship easily

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 297
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Honorary Citizen?" "Special Citizen?" or simply, "Wild Geese?"

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1233
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 06:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post

To play devil's advocate for a few minutes:

1) Citizenship confers both duties and rights. If Ireland were to make citizenship freely available to the descendants of emigrants, we would have a lot of thorny issues to sort out. There are ca. 5 million people on the island of Ireland - I understand there are 20 million in the USA alone who could claim Irish descent. Do we give all of them over 70 a medical card? (Irish citizens over 70 in Ireland are entitled to free medical treatment).

2) A special case for Ireland's emigrants in the EU: Poles, Slovakians, Czechs, Germans, Italians - in fact pretty much every country in Europe - experienced emigration which was due to religious and political persecution as well as due to economic conditions. It's hard to see a special case for Ireland there.

3) An Irish passport makes you safer: I doubt it. It didn't help either Margaret Hassan or Kenneth Bigley, although the Irish government intervened for both of them. I see two reasons for this: Today's terrorists are not nationalists, and don't care about other struggling nations. And Ireland is no longer clearly a non aligned country. We are clearly part of the Western Bloc.


Ireland needs to properly address the fact that we are now a country of significant immigration (200,000+ poles were granted social security numbers since May 2004!). Obviously, we need to cater for descendants of the Irish diaspora in new laws: but I would be opposed to granting people an Irish passport so that they could, for example, live in the Netherlands. (I've heard of at least one case).

I think it needs to be decided on a case by case basis, and depending on the individual's circumstances, and how they intend to contribute to Ireland.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 298
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 03:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I am not in favor of "souvenir" passports, and i see your point about the 34mil in the US (+Can+Australia) and services, but, it's my understanding from reading the last citizenship act that you only pay taxes and vote if you're actually *living* there. i'm sure that would serve as precident for only extending the services to actual residents as well.

and yes, flashing your passport isn't going to get you out of kidnappers beheading you, but it may make it easier to purchase a plane ticket out of a troubled country depending on the situation. muslim terrorists are not the only danger from unstable areas to travellers. In something like a "fall of Saigon" scenario it might actually make a difference or at least open up another embassy in which you could seek refuge.

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Tj_mg
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Username: Tj_mg

Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Citizenships/passports certainly shouldn't be awarded to everyone of Irish descent(Not that more than a handful of them would even be remotely interested). The sort of special considerations to make would be to make it easier to obtain citizenship on the grounds that the person intends to reside within the state or resides there for a reasonable amount of time such as three years. What would be so useful about an Irish citizenship/passport is avoiding the problem that it's nearly impossible to reside indefinately or work full time in Ireland without it(Or EU citizenship, etc). And then there lies the paradox that you are blocked from obtaining citizenship since you can't reside in the state long enough to be naturalized without satisfying the few extremely difficult to satisfy conditions that would lead to possible permission to reside.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 299
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

from what i understand, that is precisely the situation on purpose. the eu doesn't want immigration.

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 170
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 09:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is military service in Ireland voluntary or compulsory?

I ask because I've heard of more than one instance of dual passport holders (usually American citizens with French passports), who had never actually resided in the "second" country being placed on the infamous "list" and then, lo and behold, on their first trip "in country" they get nabbed at the airport and placed in jail for failure to comply with compulsory service laws. All cases of which I am aware were resolved without any long term consequences but it sure does put a kink in your vacation plans when you spend most of it in jail!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1239
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Voluntary. Or rather, the army is 100% professional, no general military service.

Compulsory in Germany, so I wonder what my kids will do...

A guy I was in college with, who had been born in Berlin, didn't take a job in Germany for that very reason.

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Ultán
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Username: Ultán

Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Countries such as Greece, Turkey and Syria make no distinction as to where a citizen was born or still lives in when it comes to military service. If you are a citizen and you visit that country and you are 18 to whatever you can or will be forced to do your 2/3 years. I am sure many countries require the same thing. As for holding more than one passport some people have no choice. Travel between say Israel and the Arab countries and USA and Cuba would be impossible with only one especially with working visas attached.

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 102
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine, a chara,
It's not quite accurate to say that Indian tribes require 1/16.
The 1/16 "blood quantum" for registration/enrollment into an Indian tribe was invented by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. As such it is a racially based Euro-American concept.
Although 1/16 is a common figure, it is not applied universally, and in some cases a much higher blood quantum is required for affiliation to a tribal group. This can vary from State to State and Tribe to Tribe, and it is almost always an external requirement imposed/enforced by Euro-American authorities.(There are well documented cases of full-blooded Indians who are not recognised by the Federal Government or State authorities as belonging to any tribe as they don't meet the "blood quantum" that has been established for any of the three or four of which their grandparents were members).
Le meas,
Chris

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Méabh
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Username: Méabh

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Even if you had an Irish passport while residing there, trust me, you'd always be "The Yank"

I'm just after living 6 and ha half years in Germany, and was always deferred when I would ask about citizenship/EU Passport rights. And this even though I was married to a German citizen!

The EU is very anti-American in their visa and citizenship rules. Don't go in blue-eyed by any means and don't hope to win a case without a good long fight.

I'm not saying don't try at all, but I think any ourtaged cries of injustice will fall on deaf ears in the EU.

(Message edited by Méabh on April 06, 2005)

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 301
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 12:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

i dunno...i first heard about it through the local casino-running-tribe, which requires 1/16 to be considered for employment at the casino.

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 104
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine, a chara,
That almost certainly means that the tribe (nation) in question is one for which the "blood quantum" in 1/16.
There will most probably be tax reasons relating to employment in the casino which would explain 1/16 requirement to work there.
Slán beo!
Chris

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Dúghlas
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Posted From: 81.156.244.17
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I am "Irish" and live in Northern Ireland. I did have to fill out a separate form than those living in the 32 counties but I am legally entitled to Irish citizenship and a passport automatically, under both Irish and British law, if they so wish. If I desire I can also obtain British citizenship and a passport, and I do believe that even people from the 32 counties are entitled to one too.

Also, I think it quite sad to regard an Irish passport a "neat souvenir". It's not a plastic Leprechaun, a tea-towel or an Aran Sweater that you can bring home to show your "Mom”!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 267
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>The EU is very anti-American.

We have reasons for that (especially when we see who’s the president there...)

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Canuck
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Username: Canuck

Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Uh-oh... a Houston, tá fadhb againn...

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 304
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

sigh...everybody's anti-american 'till nazis take over their country...

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 105
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 06:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

oh here comes the freedom fries v french fries argument...

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 106
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 06:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think it is silly that it is so difficult for Yanks and Canucks to come work and live in the EU..it would be good it we had more of them working over here,no?..already most of the ones here are skilled workers working in IT etc?..and considering Irish Americans are mostly from rich backgrounds and well educated it could be good to get more of them over here..

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 305
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 08:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"oh here comes the freedom fries v french fries argument..."

nah...it just reminded me of a conversation I had earlier in the day. renaming things is rather silly..."victory cabbage"...sheesh...

something I'm wondering, especially due to the "special ties," shall we say, that ireland has to the us, is the eu anti-americanism wholly shared by ireland as well, or are they playing along simply because they have to as part of the eu?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1270
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think (although I'm reluctant to get involved, because I can see a flame war coming) that to call it "anti americanism" or "anti EU" is wrong.

The present US government has taken a stand on several questions which is not shared, and often opposed, by most Western European governments.

There has been a lot of critical press coverage in Europe on these issues. I'd say it is fair to say that the critical attitude is broadly shared by the Press in Ireland. I'd also say that most of the irish public shares that critical attitude.

Calling opposition to the policies of the present US government anti americanism is just plain wrong. Ditto calling opposition to EU policies "anti europism (ant French, German whatever) is equally wrong.

The political cultures of the US and Europe are sufficiently different to make policy comparisons very difficult, and to lead to easy misunderstandings.

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 107
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 09:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Our Tanaiste Mary Harney tried to ignite a debate here a year or two ago about whether we were closer to Boston or Berlin..

She off course loves rich American multinationals (and Turkish ones 'coz they pay less!!) and their fondness for not paying tax (in the US as well as here let it be noted!!!)

Whether we are more close to American or European culture is an open question..what is American/European culture anyway?

Are Bush's politics typically American and are Chirac's politics typically European? As far as I am aware both men are equally despised as well as loved in their countries..Europe is not a monolith with one opinion on the US..we love and abhor certain things there I would say largely like many in the US feel about their own country? nach bhfuil sin ceart?

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 108
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 09:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Boston V Berlin

“In a controversial speech delivered last night in Boston, Ms de Valera said directives and regulations agreed in Brussels often "seriously impinge on our identity, culture and traditions". Senior Government sources expressed surprise at Ms De Valera's hard-hitting comments. They will also cause serious embarrassment for Ireland at European level.”

“In July the Tánaiste and PD leader, Ms Harney, also expressed concerns about European integration, saying it would be against the interests of Ireland, which she claimed was "spiritually a lot closer to Boston than Berlin. Ms Harney had told a meeting of the American Bar Association that she was against a more centralised Europe with key political [and] economic decisions being taken in Brussels”.

The Irish Times, September 19th, 2000


Derek McDowell on Boston V Berlin

"Boston stands for prosperity and inequality, low taxes and poor public services. A society where you buy healthcare, schooling for your kids, security guards for your neighbourhood, a society where you can buy a good quality of life, if you have the money, and a society where those who don't have the money do without.

Berlin, however, according to the Labour Party stands for "public investment and public services, a society which provides healthcare, education and security to all who need it and not just those who can afford to pay".

...Mr. McDowell remarked that if Fianna Fáil and the PDs line up behind the Boston model, Fine Gael is at risk of sinking in mid-Atlantic

The Irish Times, March 25th, 2002

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:jEObc00gc-EJ:www.comms.dcu.ie/cm117/neolibe ral.ppt+boston+v+berlin+mary+harney&hl=en&start=1

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 109
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 09:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post


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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 306
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"The present US government has taken a stand on several questions which is not shared, and often opposed, by most Western European governments. "

Is that really that different from most of the last 60 years? I mean, I seem to recall seeing lots of protests throughout the cold war with regards to US military and nuclear presence making western europe target #1 for a soviet first or retaliatory strike, as well as criticism of involvement in vietnam &c.

It just seems that often we can't win. There was outcry over human rights abuses (especially women) in Afghanistan, but when we get involved we're made into the bad guys. There is outcry over human rights abuses (especially slavery) in the Sudan, and when we *don't* get involved we're made into the bad guys. Civil war in Rwanda and we're criticized for not getting involved. Civil war and famine in Somalia and we're criticized for going. It appears that a good chunk of the rest of the world takes great pleasure in coming down on us no matter what we do or don't do, and has for quite some time.

BTW, I know we're not saints and do (and have done) ALOT of screwy things over the years...

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Searlas
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Username: Searlas

Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine, I think the "big kid on the block", as it were, is always going to be a magnet for criticism by the rest of the world community, justified or not. In 100 years our descendants will likely be complaining about China in much the same way.

Regards,

Searlas

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 307
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I hope not...those who complain about China don't live too long...

I don't think it would bother me, not getting a fair shake, if we weren't also the first one people went to with their hand out when a war or natural disaster comes. I feel that the american economy and goodwill are used and abused as a "natural resource" of sorts by a good part of the third- and developing-world.

I don't mean to say US policies are a bed of roses, but we're typically the first ones on the spot with food and aid - even to our enemies (like the offer to Iran after their earthquake) - whenever there's a conflict or disaster. The recent tsunami is a good example. We've sent literally tons of aid to countries who months before likened us to the worst scum any primordial ocean had to offer. They took what we had to offer, insulting us in the press the whole while, and after we're done helping them rebuild will go right back to railing against us until the next time they want our food or money.

At least Iran had the decency to tell us where to shove it when we offered help...

(Message edited by antaine on April 15, 2005)

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Canuck
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Username: Canuck

Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

a Antaine, an bhfuil tú cinnte faoi sin?

"..sigh...everybody's anti-american.."
-Not this Canuck, nor the majority I know.

"...Afghanistan..."
- Most of the world supported you with that venture, including us here in Canada. We have 800 over there right now.

"..Sudan.."
- Why won't the UN do anything???

"Civil war in Rwanda.."
- Actually, it was a well organised genocide of 800,000. The UN is again to blame for being a lame duck. However, Belgium and France are FAR more responsible than the U.S. for that travesty. RTLM, the hate radio station broadcast from behind the French controlled areas.

".. Somalia .."
- There was alot of torturing of civilians going on by many troops including some from Canada.. most suspect it was the Mefloquin.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 308
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 01:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hey, you're preaching to the choir here...whenever inaction results in a catastrophic situation, nobody blames the UN, they blame us, "you went to Korea and Vietnam, why couldn't you go there!?"

but any good our actions have are marginalized while all less desireable effects are magnified (and a few completely made up for good measure).

I think France and many of the wealthier countries of Europe forget that they have peaceful borders and nice economies *because* they put their nose everywhere in the world, eradicated their enemies and opposition, and supported empire-friendly puppets throughout the world. The only one I can think of that didn't have any luck with that would be...um...Germany...but they are a modern powerhouse due in large part to our goodwill and support after we defeated them in the war. Else they would still be a rubble bestrewn soviet backwater. Similar story with Japan.

There was actually a very touching essay written by a Canadian about the US and their humanitarian missions, but I also remember an elected official (?) in canada trashing us to the media. I know there was Canadian backlash against her for that, so the "North American Brotherhood" feelings are far from universal.

The funny thing is, culturally, the US and Canada (and Australia and New Zealand) both are essentially "european" countries. We're certainly not "American" in the sense that Brazil or Peru or Venezuela are. Countries in central and south america are the results of the native population (with some mixing with the spanish and portugese) being "converted" to a western style of nation-state, whereas the US and Canada are the results of europeans essentially "replacing" the native populations completely.

Each continent has its own distinct 'flavor' and a Toronto or a Nashville (or Sidney or Wellington) are much closer to a Cardiff or Marseilles than they are to a Curçao, N'Djamena, Riyadh, Delhi or Shanghai.

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Caoimhín
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Username: Caoimhín

Post Number: 109
Registered: 01-1999


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 02:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks to all of you for keeping your comments polite and resisting the temptation to ignite a flame war on what has been an extremely divisive topic in the past.

That having been said....

Before this gets out of hand, lets move on.

Caoimhín

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1273
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 03:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tacáim leis an rún sin. I second that.



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